Reflections and Thoughts on FM13

[wwfan]

Been suffering with a headache today and thus struggled to concentrate on my work. Instead I nosed around the forums and checked back through a few FM13 threads I got extensively involved in over the last 6 months or so.

There seem to be three themes running through these threads in a rough chronological order.

1: Prior to my posting the 12 Step Guide, I was being attacked and abused for my comments and observations on the FM13 ME and tactics so much I actually withdrew from the forums for a while.

2: During the time the 12 Step Guide was attracting a lot of attention, a lot of people started becoming very positive about FM13, saying they were enjoying it more than previous versions. This was accompanied by lots of interesting and detailed threads about tactics in the tactical forum which produced some of the best discussion I have ever seen in that forum.

3: In general, there's very little angst on the forums and most people seem to be getting on well with FM13. There are also a number of threads popping up that go into some detail about other game modules, notably darthrodent's recent thread about team talks, which produce some really interesting discussion and positive outcomes. Kriss has also noted in the mods room that activity was higher than usual for this time of year, which he speculated was due to the increased sales. So, generally a positive vibe.

In conclusion, it looks to me that after a short, often painful learning process, many people have adapted to FM13's more robust ME and are enjoying the game. My question is whether this is the case and, whether it is or not, what things are people finding good and bad about FM13. I'm also interested to know if anybody's playing methodology has fundamentally shifted as a direct result of the ME changes introduced in FM13.

[parsdaft1982]

Personaly i am really enjoying FM13. As with each FM i have a slow start to get used to all the new features etc, but after the latest patch, i always get into the long term saves. Currently i am managing Wigan in the 2019/20 season and still enjoying it. the one thing i do hate is the close season as i can get bored with it. i also hate a lot of the agents refusing to negotiate new deals and having to sell some of my Gem players. I still have not had a game with FMC as i still enjoy all the new features. I play the game a lot, and when i am at work, i play it about 8 hours a day (i work away). without the game, my work would be a hell of a drag.

[rayr27]

I think your conclusion ignores the fact that prior to 13.3 there were some serious problems with the ME which pretty much made it essential to make an exploitative tactic in order to be successful. Post-patching, however, I would agree that this has been one of the best FMs there's been. The match engine provided a fun challenge and and some of the new features were defintiely steps forward (I particularly liked the new shortlists).

The achilles heel for me though has been longevity of a save. Despite starting a few quite challenging scenarios I've found myself often getting bored by about season 8 as the AI's lack of ability to balanced squad and effectively rotate it became a problem. In the EPL this seemed to be exacerbated by the lack of adapatation to the home grown rules which often saw the top teams with squads of 22 including a couple of low potential 16 yr olds after a few seasons.

The other issue which has frustrated me with this game in a long save has been the managerial merry go round. In a couple of 10 season saves in England I saw far too many unrealisitic managerial appointments: already employed managers by clubs at a pretty much identical level (often lower in the table) and manager's having 2nd spells at clubs they were earlier sacked by or left acrimoniously. At one point Benitez came back to Liverpool and, while flying high in the league jumped ship to Arsenal mid season who were in direct competition with them.

In terms of my playing methodology I suppose it has changed a bit. This ME has certainly demanded a little more guile in terms of choosing which players make forward runs and been a lot less forgiving (compared to FM12) on tactics that leave you short handed at the back which has added some realism and forced me to put a bit more thought in at various points.

Going forward, I think the tactical side of the game could do with a bit of an overhaul. The fact that 4-2-3-1 will almost always be overwhemed by a flat midfield 4 is still a problem as is the postioning of the midfielders in the various different incarnations of such a formation. Also, I find some of the default instructions to players to be a little counter-intuitive. The fact that a MR/L as a W(S) has normal wide play while a W(A) hugs the touchline seems the wrong way round as surely the dribbler should be looking to beat the full back to get a cross in while the wide player running from deep should be more aware of space being created in the middle to run in to. I also found strikers to be largley innefective when given the 'move into channels' instruction (post 13.3) as they spent far too much time in positions where they couldn't receive the ball and seemed to ignore space centrally. Though that last part may be more to do with my tactics than the game itself.

[backpackant]

I think a lot of people still focus on the very few times the ME seems to have a breakdown and you get things like a dozen players running around in the 6 yard box seemingly unable to clear (or even touch) the ball, then someone nips in and scores. Or the time I had a simple back-pass to the keeper when he turns and fires it into his own net. Very, very rare, but some people linger on these things, which - as I understand - are not actually happening in the ME, but are visual representations of what actually happens "under the hood". So for me these minor things are not game-breaking and it has been a lot of fun.

[KevMaaan]

I lurk in these forums alot, picking up tips and whatnot, and all-in-all i think this is the best FM ive played. Ive nowhere near got the hang of it, and im the kind of moron who will let a single big defeat get the better of him and drive himself insane looking at the analysis pages trying to pinpoint where it all went wrong. Ive by no means got the hang of it, i wouldnt even say i was particularly good at it, but its still the most enjoyable for me.

[jac4121993]

I swear to god the FM13 I bought is completely different to the FM13 others are playing. Every game I play seems to be filled with players acting like complete morons. Every time I say I've had enough I come back after a few days hoping the next save I play will be different. It never is.

[Smurf]

Can't play the game because it takes too long to process.

I urge FM creators to buy the same laptop I have and try it out - same specs. A small cost to pay to fix what I think is a huge problem. I can't be the only one with this issue.

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/355694-Slow-processing-problem.

I'm going to try FrazT suggestions but I doubt it will make a difference. I'll even turn off the internet and antivirus/firewalls and all things like that to see what happens. I don't expect a huge change.

If my issue can be fixed I will buy FM14. If it can't then I don't see the point in buying future versions.

I do enjoy the game immensely though - and I love all the changes, the Match Engine is amazing, and the interaction and overall game play is wonderful.

I just wish I could play it.

[Lawlore]

First up, let me make it clear that I'm writing from the position of someone who didn't buy FM13- I played the demo, did not like the UI or the implementation of newer features, decided I was happier with my FM12 save and haven't been particularly tempted to buy the full thing by the sales. So my post is based on observation of these forums, and others comments, which will obviously give a skewed perspective. If you want to disregard my opinion on that basis, well, that's up to you.

But the conclusion I've drawn is that FM13 seems to be SI's Windows Vista (or even Windows 8)- it introduced a big shift which was risky and always likely to divide opinion, and at launch, it wasn't quite in the state people expected it to be. The new ME, from the pre-release Beta right through to release, was occasionally referred to as a step backwards from FM12, and took a lot of criticism. It took a good few patches for the "unplayable" posts to die down to the low level they're currently at. However, at this point in time, the general consensus now seems to be that it is leap years ahead of FM12. But there was a lot of negativity, the likes of which I hadn't seen since Steam became compulsory, and that resulted in the locked "Constructive Criticism" post at the top of this forum.

Having said that, that negativity largely seems to have passed with the last update or two, and there does seem to be, as you say, more of a shift to people now genuinely needing tactical assistance and learning how to get players to perform effectively, as opposed to commonly known ME issues and slightly off balances for things like through balls, clumping defenders etc. that made the match as it was presented feel unrealistic and causing frustration. This can only be a good thing, because it suggests those issues are far less prevalent.

As I've focussed on the negative, I think it's important to strive for balance. Again, from outside observation, it seems that FMC has been a huge success, and that the microtransactions have not caused the armageddon that some (even myself at times) were fearing pre-release. The feedback in the FMC subforum is largely positive, with SI having introduced a feature which has genuinely allowed more people to play the game in a way that is suitable to them. Regardless of any personal opinion, that deserves recognition- it is a good feature which has spotted a gap to be filled which will benefit the game, and has been executed well.

So, to bring back to the Vista comparison, it appears that FM13 is now ready to provide a solid platform for FM14 to build on- a lot of the teething issues from a significant but necessary change are being ironed out, and the final product is certainly capable. Windows 7, which followed Vista, is widely considered one of the strongest OS created, and the way in which FM13 has developed since release is really quite encouraging for FM14.

[tajj 7]

Been suffering with a headache today and thus struggled to concentrate on my work. Instead I nosed around the forums and checked back through a few FM13 threads I got extensively involved in over the last 6 months or so.

There seem to be three themes running through these threads in a rough chronological order.

1: Prior to my posting the 12 Step Guide, I was being attacked and abused for my comments and observations on the FM13 ME and tactics so much I actually withdrew from the forums for a while.

2: During the time the 12 Step Guide was attracting a lot of attention, a lot of people started becoming very positive about FM13, saying they were enjoying it more than previous versions. This was accompanied by lots of interesting and detailed threads about tactics in the tactical forum which produced some of the best discussion I have ever seen in that forum.

3: In general, there's very little angst on the forums and most people seem to be getting on well with FM13. There are also a number of threads popping up that go into some detail about other game modules, notably darthrodent's recent thread about team talks, which produce some really interesting discussion and positive outcomes. Kriss has also noted in the mods room that activity was higher than usual for this time of year, which he speculated was due to the increased sales. So, generally a positive vibe.

In conclusion, it looks to me that after a short, often painful learning process, many people have adapted to FM13's more robust ME and are enjoying the game. My question is whether this is the case and, whether it is or not, what things are people finding good and bad about FM13. I'm also interested to know if anybody's playing methodology has fundamentally shifted as a direct result of the ME changes introduced in FM13.

I like the ME it can produce some brilliant football that you feel you have directly influenced that previous versions haven't produced (I have always been in the developing logical tactics rather than downloading tactic camp).

However is also produces some incredibly frustrating moments that make me want to stop playing the game, there are many issues that relate to crosses/high balls and how goalkeepers and defenders react to it. There are some very bad or bizarre decisions made by very good players as well.

There are also some other issues with regards to restrictions on what I can and can't do that annoy me and the long term performance of the AI in the game is not that challenging.

[CityAndColour]

I like the ME it can produce some brilliant football that you feel you have directly influenced that previous versions haven't produced (I have always been in the developing logical tactics rather than downloading tactic camp).

However is also produces some incredibly frustrating moments that make me want to stop playing the game, there are many issues that relate to crosses/high balls and how goalkeepers and defenders react to it. There are some very bad or bizarre decisions made by very good players as well.

This pretty much sums up FM13 for me too. The match engine in its current state produces some of the best football I've seen on any version, and also some of the worst. My team regularly produces some sublime football, and I also see some very concerning issues which I would deem as systemic rather than just bad luck or out of the box.

I think the best way to describe how FM13 has come across to me is experimental. It frustrates me but at the same time really makes me excited for FM14.

[Veg1ta]

fm13 is a decent game, could have been better if they didn't rush it, hopefully fm14 becomes everything fm13 could have been.

[tottivillarossi]

I think your conclusion ignores the fact that prior to 13.3 there were some serious problems with the ME which pretty much made it essential to make an exploitative tactic in order to be successful. Post-patching, however, I would agree that this has been one of the best FMs there's been. The match engine provided a fun challenge and and some of the new features were defintiely steps forward (I particularly liked the new shortlists).

The achilles heel for me though has been longevity of a save. Despite starting a few quite challenging scenarios I've found myself often getting bored by about season 8 as the AI's lack of ability to balanced squad and effectively rotate it became a problem. In the EPL this seemed to be exacerbated by the lack of adapatation to the home grown rules which often saw the top teams with squads of 22 including a couple of low potential 16 yr olds after a few seasons.

The other issue which has frustrated me with this game in a long save has been the managerial merry go round. In a couple of 10 season saves in England I saw far too many unrealisitic managerial appointments: already employed managers by clubs at a pretty much identical level (often lower in the table) and manager's having 2nd spells at clubs they were earlier sacked by or left acrimoniously. At one point Benitez came back to Liverpool and, while flying high in the league jumped ship to Arsenal mid season who were in direct competition with them.

In terms of my playing methodology I suppose it has changed a bit. This ME has certainly demanded a little more guile in terms of choosing which players make forward runs and been a lot less forgiving (compared to FM12) on tactics that leave you short handed at the back which has added some realism and forced me to put a bit more thought in at various points.

Going forward, I think the tactical side of the game could do with a bit of an overhaul. The fact that 4-2-3-1 will almost always be overwhemed by a flat midfield 4 is still a problem as is the postioning of the midfielders in the various different incarnations of such a formation. Also, I find some of the default instructions to players to be a little counter-intuitive. The fact that a MR/L as a W(S) has normal wide play while a W(A) hugs the touchline seems the wrong way round as surely the dribbler should be looking to beat the full back to get a cross in while the wide player running from deep should be more aware of space being created in the middle to run in to. I also found strikers to be largley innefective when given the 'move into channels' instruction (post 13.3) as they spent far too much time in positions where they couldn't receive the ball and seemed to ignore space centrally. Though that last part may be more to do with my tactics than the game itself.

Nail on the head.

[BiggusD]

I am actually the most disappointed with the lack of tactical variety I am experiencing in FM13. 442 seems to be perfectly balanced while all other formations are measured through strengths and weaknesses according to that universal standard. There are very very few through balls - that is, passes played in space behind the defence. Even when a counter is on and the player with the ball has several teammates rushing forward to help, he will always get lost on a run and make a backpass instead, which is such an awful choice in 100% of those situations that if this was real life he would never play for me again. Completely unforgivable. So in the end there are two strategies that pay off; wingplay with crosses and runs inside (ending in shots), and combinations with many players right in front of and inside the 16yard box.

That's boring. The reason I'm having fun with FM13 now is the hard competition I have in an online game with a friend. I don't play other savegames anymore.

[Carmi88]

can't stand the ball movement in the match engine =/

[soccer.joel]

I've found FM13 very fun to play after getting around the initial tactical naivety

[youngrookie]

I've found this FM the most challenging in the series and i've been playing since, well Lineker was available to buy in the 'foreign' section. As always I start off slow and take my time going through all the in game options. I tend to go for mid table teams from top divisions in England or Italy so that the game can be challenging enough and have to be shrewd in the transfer market (Inter was a great save for me as their debt is huge and their players are payed way to much and are average at best).

I spend alot of time in this forum and one other and mainly in the tactics section. I've downloaded many just to take a closer look at and take ideas but always create my own. One thing that does bug me is on the ME it just looks like the players are on ice in certain circumstances. They go flying buy the player and sort of make a sliding motion. I always look for a tight defence in my tactics (mainly back 3, haven't got it right with a 4 yet and probably will not) so it does irritate me when say a centre back will stay centre and not confront an opposition attacker bearing down on goal. That and free kicks (not direct ones, the ones that are nearly always scored for and against) are all i've found annoying, but not enough to stop me from being a success and enjoying the game.

I find that managers get sacked ever so quickly (2-3 months usually for the Liverpool manager).

Scouting confuses me on this years game. Dont like its layout. Can't quite figure it all out yet. Do I leave it for my chief scout to sort out? Because sometimes my scouts are just doing nothing.Anyone else struggle with scouting?

Love the training. Produced and improved so many players. Love the layout.

Overall been very impressed and am pleased that the creators listen to the us (complaints) and try their best to fix it. Remember the unstopable "Messi" wingers and full backs, that was a difficult time to be playing the game

[themadsheep2001]

This pretty much sums up FM13 for me too. The match engine in its current state produces some of the best football I've seen on any version, and also some of the worst. My team regularly produces some sublime football, and I also see some very concerning issues which I would deem as systemic rather than just bad luck or out of the box.

I think the best way to describe how FM13 has come across to me is experimental. It frustrates me but at the same time really makes me excited for FM14.

I'd go with this. There are still a fair few annoying little thing that need to be ironed. And pressing/tackling interceptions need to be revamped as there are twice as many tackles as real life (on the up side I have a pretty good theory as to why so will be uploading a bug report shortly. Goalkeepers also need a lot of work.

But I've also managed to see some of the best football, from both myself and the AI, in any series of FM. There is a lot to be excited about in the next version if SI continue to build on this.

Tactically I've never had as many different ways to play before, and have them play so close to their real life counter parts . 4-4-2, 4-2-3-1, 3-4-1-2, 4-6-0 etc it's been great to see their strengths and weaknesses shown up very well here, and if the AI can be pushed on further FM!4 will be fantastic.

My biggest gripe however isn't a personal one. But one I experience being a mod on another forum. The sheer amount of information there is in the game and that fact that its really not put across well at all. Unless you come to the forums ( and even when you come to the forums) the learning curve for a new player is staggeringly steep, and you run risk of people becoming frustrated before they get to experience the vast amount of subtlety it has to offer. For example wwfan, you have put up a number of great easy to read guides that would serve as an excellent introduction to the game, and I'm left thinking "why isnt something like this release alongside the technical manual?". The complexity of the game must be accompanied by accessibility.

[themadsheep2001]

I am actually the most disappointed with the lack of tactical variety I am experiencing in FM13. 442 seems to be perfectly balanced while all other formations are measured through strengths and weaknesses according to that universal standard. There are very very few through balls - that is, passes played in space behind the defence. Even when a counter is on and the player with the ball has several teammates rushing forward to help, he will always get lost on a run and make a backpass instead, which is such an awful choice in 100% of those situations that if this was real life he would never play for me again. Completely unforgivable. So in the end there are two strategies that pay off; wingplay with crosses and runs inside (ending in shots), and combinations with many players right in front of and inside the 16yard box.

That's boring. The reason I'm having fun with FM13 now is the hard competition I have in an online game with a friend. I don't play other savegames anymore.

4-4-2 is certainly not perfectly balanced, its quite easily undermined in game by both player and AI, especially by the deep 4-2-3-1.

[Bradley21]

The lack of through balls is the only real bad thing about the ME this year in my opinion. Pity it's a bloody huge downside that has a big impact on matches.

Players running into space never get the ball played through to them, instead the ball carrier nearly always plays it sideways are backwards, killing the move off entirely. Even the "pass into space" shout doesn't help too much.

[themadsheep2001]

Another thing actually. More lateral movement ( and more movement options within the TC to go with it) is needed.

[Blinkenlights Faxlore]

(never mind)

[themadsheep2001]

The lack of through balls is the only real bad thing about the ME this year in my opinion. Pity it's a bloody huge downside that has a big impact on matches.

Players running into space never get the ball played through to them, instead the ball carrier nearly always plays it sideways are backwards, killing the move off entirely. Even the "pass into space" shout doesn't help too much.

I know what you mean, the decision making behind high risk/high reward passes (for example, through balls and quick long raking diagonals) needs to be looked at.

[Guest]

My biggest gripe however isn't a personal one. But one I experience being a mod on another forum. The sheer amount of information there is in the game and that fact that its really not put across well at all. Unless you come to the forums ( and even when you come to the forums) the learning curve for a new player is staggeringly steep, and you run risk of people becoming frustrated before they get to experience the vast amount of subtlety it has to offer. For example wwfan, you have put up a number of great easy to read guides that would serve as an excellent introduction to the game, and I'm left thinking "why isn't something like this release alongside the technical manual?". The complexity of the game must be accompanied by accessibility.

This is something that I mentioned a while back, SI really need to help new or returning players get to grips with the vast array of options & data they are presented with as I have no doubt that it can be very overwhelming, the current method of doing things risks losing those new players after just 1 year.

With the right collaboration between SI & some of the more eloquent forum users I'm sure that a very informative & well written guide could be put together & sold at let's say £4.99, so many games that do not need them get walk through guides (achievement maps) yet the games that really do need in-depth manuals are shipped out in a work it out for yourself fashion.

[dsouthy]

I play FM12 and FM13 side by side. Love them both. FM13 is a great step in the right direction. Looking forward to FM14.

Agree with if SI could release a guide - didn't CM do that in the past? I remember buying them for each version I had.

[Guest]

If printing costs are a concern they could releases it as a downloadable document from the main SI games website for if possible via the Steam client.

[Bromley Raven]

it looks to me that after a short, often painful learning process, many people have adapted to FM13's more robust ME and are enjoying the game. My question is whether this is the case

For me it wasn't so much a case of learning about the ME or reading guides, it was the drastic changes in the ME from version to version that changed opinion. The original (13.0.0?) was awful. I remember you defending it, even the parts that seem indefensible like the number of goals from far post crosses. Later versions of the game steadily improved the ME. This is probably why you remember early hostility that got better later. There was also a lot of annoyance that there was a version of the game (13.1.3 I think) which was good and then a subsequent version (13.2.0) which was a big step backwards. There was a lot of anger about the fact that SI allowed this to be released when it was so clearly worse, and the fact that steam doesn't allow you to roll back to previous versions.

what things are people finding good and bad about FM13.

Are you just talking about the ME? I can't get into a save at the moment and it's not to do with the ME at all. It's mainly that I love the squad building side of things, but this is currently poorly implemented. Both transfer fees and wages seem unrealistic. Wages in particular can be annoying. I had a situation at Crystal Palace where Glenn Murray was coming towards the end of his contract. He had a mixed previous season and was over 30 so I couldn't justify over £10k. I was a favoured personnel and Palace were a favoured club. He refused 10k with generous add-ons and ended up signing for free for a lower reputation Championship club (Barnsley I think) for £5,750. Given I was higher reputation, favourite staff, favourite club, why on earth would he accept that after rejecting £10k.

I also think that there are still too frequent shifts in form. It seems that when things go right they go right for the whole team. When they go wrong they go wrong for the whole team. I would like to see an enhanced player form and weakened team form. Players shouldn't all be affected by overconfidence at the same time, which seems to happen at the moment.

[tomtuck01]

The lack of through balls is the only real bad thing about the ME this year in my opinion. Pity it's a bloody huge downside that has a big impact on matches.

I always take issue with this.

I don't see a lack of through balls, more the lack of effectiveness of through balls. This is due to the introduction of collision detection in this years ME. Whereas through balls were hugely overpowered in previous FM's due to the fact that players could literally run through each other, now they can't, thus making the through ball less effective.

[CityAndColour]

Yeah I must admit I don't see the issue with through balls, at least since the infamous Christmas Eve patch which caused excessive long shots. If anything I find playing an AMC behind two strikers produces too many through balls, as whoever I put in that role seems to rack up 25 assists a season and always doubles the next player in the league key passes stat:

I'm not sure collision detection works as it should for set pieces and crosses though, as attackers seem to consistently walk/jump through numerous defenders and static keepers, particularly from indirect free kicks.

[tomtuck01]

I'm not sure collision detection works as it should for set pieces and crosses though, as attackers seem to consistently walk/jump through numerous defenders and static keepers, particularly from indirect free kicks.

That could always be down to the poor 3D representation though?

[BiggusD]

I always take issue with this.

I don't see a lack of through balls, more the lack of effectiveness of through balls. This is due to the introduction of collision detection in this years ME. Whereas through balls were hugely overpowered in previous FM's due to the fact that players could literally run through each other, now they can't, thus making the through ball less effective.

I don't recognize this "run into each other" thing people are talking about. There are no through-balls because FM does not have them. Let me explain: In FM there are two kinds of passes; passes to feet and passes into space. The former is precise and the latter is not. A through-ball is neither a precise pass to feet or an imprecise pass into space. It is a precise pass into space. In order for a player to receive one of those, HE needs to be the one initiating the run, because otherwise it will indeed be an imprecise pass into space. Having a defender blocking the path prevents that run in the first place, but that's not the issue - the issue is that when there is a run, the pass is received in front of the defense, which makes it a pass to feet and not a through-ball. The player then needs to dribble past the defense. A successful "through-ball" in FM is a pass lofted over the defense to a player receiving it at the moment it touches the ground, which means that it it still a precise pass to feet and not an actual through-ball. The number of those are of course unnaturally small, since the run, the pass and the first touch all needs to be amazingly successful for it to work. If FM actually had real through-balls, that first touch of the ball would be an entirely different calculation unrelated to the run and pass.

[tomtuck01]

I don't recognize this "run into each other" thing people are talking about.

Then you're not watching what' going on. It's there, simple as that.

[BiggusD]

Then you're not watching what' going on. It's there, simple as that.

I never said it isn't there, it's just not the reason there are so few through-balls in FM13, simple as that

[Wizard boy]

I`ve enjoyed playing fm 13 more than any other version. The fact that im still on the same save from when i bought the game on the day it come out says it all for me. There are things about fm that annoy the hell me but thats never gonna change. These are some of them.

Managerial changes especially in 2040 are crazy.

Players flicking off opposition players for a throwing and getting it completely wrong. Might look good when it works but when you watch your player basically pass it to them and they go on to score. it kinda loses its appeal. I`ve even seen them do it when they are not even near the touchline and leaves me wondering what they were doing.

Another thing that annoys me is the ridiculous thought process of my players when in attacking positions. where there is a simple pass through to my striker in the penalty area but instead he`ll pass it to a player up near halfway line.

Also i don`t know if shouts work and changing the strategy to overload because when i`ve done it. it doesn`t seem to make much difference. there is no urgency in the way they play. passing it around in def and to the keeper when i want it pumped into the box.

Wages is another problem. the amount of money some are on is crazy especially when you look at their stats and see there is no way that player should be over 200k a week. offering contracts to staff can be a pain as well. i`ve seen staff refuse to budge on £50 and if you click to lock it in at the price you want they end the negotiations saying you backed them into a corner.

One thing still hasn`t been fixed is when a player is heading towards goal. mine was on his own and was running down the centre and had the beating of one defender but for some unknown reason he started heading towards the corner flag when he should have been in a one on one situation with the keeper. that really does bug the hell out me when it happens.

[Guest]

Also i don`t know if shouts work and changing the strategy to overload because when i`ve done it. it doesn`t seem to make much difference. there is no urgency in the way they play. passing it around in def and to the keeper when i want it pumped into the box.

That's because on it's own Overload is of little use, all you've probably done is tell your players to get forward & stay there without adding in additional instructions on getting the ball to where your players are &/or moving your defensive line up at the same time.

[Wizard boy]

That's because on it's own Overload is of little use, all you've probably done is tell your players to get forward & stay there without adding in additional instructions on getting the ball to where your players are &/or moving your defensive line up at the same time.

Usually I use shouts like get ball forward pump ball into box and hassle opponents. What else should I be doing?

[Guest]

That's pretty much it although AFAIK shouts are ineffective if you've adjusted the player sliders from their default settings, one of the T&T guys might be able to confirm or deny that.

Personally I try to create overload & contain versions of my core tactics & switch to those rather than using shouts.

[themadsheep2001]

That's pretty much it although AFAIK shouts are ineffective if you've adjusted the player sliders from their default settings, one of the T&T guys might be able to confirm or deny that.

Personally I try to create overload & contain versions of my core tactics & switch to those rather than using shouts.

If you manually adjust a slider, it will not be affected by whatever shout is connected to it.

[Guest]

That's another example of things not being remotely clear in the game, how many people would expect the 'get it forward' shout to result in all your players immediately looking to lump the ball up to your strikers regardless of what passing instructions you game to them at the start of the game?

[themadsheep2001]

That's another example of things not being remotely clear in the game, how many people would expect the 'get it forward' shout to result in all your players immediately looking to lump the ball up to your strikers regardless of what passing instructions you game to them at the start of the game?

Yup I agree, you'd only know this by coming onto the forums. If you have manually set the passing lengths and mentality for whatever reasons, and you then decide to go Overload, and use the get ball forwards shout; mentality will not shift up and passing length will not increase because manual tweaks override shout adjustments.

[Guest]

I'm just as bad as the next guy when it comes to being amazed what people do not know about FM & how it works but then I step back & realise that I've been playing this type of game for over 25 years & aside from cm03/04 I've owned every PC release from SI since CM3 so like many folk I've been along for the ride while the game has evolved & can fairly quickly figure out what is going on with each new version.

If this was my first foray into the genre as a casual football fan then I'd probably find FM13 very daunting & given the lack of supporting literature outside this forum I'm not sure that I'd continue to buy the game, then again it could hook me just the way it did all those years ago.

[Bradley21]

I'm just as bad as the next guy when it comes to being amazed what people do not know about FM & how it works but then I step back & realise that I've been playing this type of game for over 25 years & aside from cm03/04 I've owned every PC release from SI since CM3 so like many folk I've been along for the ride while the game has evolved & can fairly quickly figure out what is going on with each new version.

If this was my first foray into the genre as a casual football fan then I'd probably find FM13 very daunting & given the lack of supporting literature outside this forum I'm not sure that I'd continue to buy the game, then again it could hook me just the way it did all those years ago.

That's a very good point.

I've been playing since CM01/02, and when people post problems here i generally sit there wondering how they can find such simple things so confusing. But taking a step back it's clear that there's a massive learning curve for new player. I recently got my friend FM12 as his first ever football management game and i've spent hours and hours talking with him over steam about how to do this and that, what that means, how to get something to work like he wants it to, where to look to find something out.....really mundane stuff that is basically muscle memory for me, but for him it was really confusing. The tactical overrides point is a huge issue, so many people get frustrated because they don't know how that works.

A guide of any sort would be great to help ease newbies into the game, be it written by SI or forum volunteers. I remember the one we had for FML was pretty decent (not perfect, but decent enough for total newcomers) and it was written by some moderators and admins from the gameworlds.

[MichaelBrown]

Whilst people have had to adapt to the game and almost learn how to challenge and counter the AI, I do think you left one vital bit of information out WWFan - people were originally ''attacking you'' when the game came out because people had spent a fair bit of money on a product that looked like it was rushed and half-finished.

I'm not saying that some people were trying their hardest to simply troll and abuse people rather than engage in feedback, it also seemed that some people, rather than listening to people who were concerned with the game, were simply labeling everything with the infamous ''ITS YOUR TACTICS.'' This, unfortunately, involved moderators. Threads concerned feedback were sometimes derailed by people who were trying their hardest to patronise and label every fault with the ME as ''something that would happen IRL.''

On to the current game, I think it's fantastic. I love how you have to play the game rather than creating a 4-2-3-1 (with a poacher) that, in FM12, would mean you could go 100 games unbeaten. Similarily, I think FM13 has been influential in allowing people to think logically about tactics, thus discussion has been fantastic in all areas of the forum. I'm extremely excited for FM14, I think the ME can only improve and I'm so happy that the change, however painful, has shifted away from the FM12 ME.

Now to sort out AI squad building..

[Gooner SJ]

........

[wwfan]

Whilst people have had to adapt to the game and almost learn how to challenge and counter the AI, I do think you left one vital bit of information out WWFan - people were originally ''attacking you'' when the game came out because people had spent a fair bit of money on a product that looked like it was rushed and half-finished.

I'm not saying that some people were trying their hardest to simply troll and abuse people rather than engage in feedback, it also seemed that some people, rather than listening to people who were concerned with the game, were simply labeling everything with the infamous ''ITS YOUR TACTICS.'' This, unfortunately, involved moderators. Threads concerned feedback were sometimes derailed by people who were trying their hardest to patronise and label every fault with the ME as ''something that would happen IRL.''

On to the current game, I think it's fantastic. I love how you have to play the game rather than creating a 4-2-3-1 (with a poacher) that, in FM12, would mean you could go 100 games unbeaten. Similarily, I think FM13 has been influential in allowing people to think logically about tactics, thus discussion has been fantastic in all areas of the forum. I'm extremely excited for FM14, I think the ME can only improve and I'm so happy that the change, however painful, has shifted away from the FM12 ME.

Now to sort out AI squad building..

I don't agree that the mods defended the ME with "it's your tactics". We consistently accepted the ME was rough while arguing it required a more logical tactical approach because of the reworked ball physics and the addition of collision detection. We suggested that people might better appreciate the ME if they reflected on their tactical approach, rather than loading up tactics that worked in previous MEs then ranting how the football was terrible. We were saying this because the tactics we were using were not producing terrible football and made the ME look quite solid.

It was never a blind defence, but an empirical one. I don't think there's a single mod who would unreflectively praise something that wasn't working. For example, when the super-dribblers emerged, not one mod suggested that this was anything other than a problem and one that needed to be fixed. We also proffered a workaround solution (which we also got abused for doing).

Although a few vocal people vehemently objected to this argument, saying they knew how to play FM and it definitely wasn't their tactics, there were a good number of people who changed their tactical approach and began to see good football, which backed up our position. If we weren't pretty sure that this we knew what going on (and we became more and more sure as time went on), we'd have been as lost and as emotional as many others.

[lemeures]

For me it wasn't so much a case of learning about the ME or reading guides, it was the drastic changes in the ME from version to version that changed opinion. The original (13.0.0?) was awful. I remember you defending it, even the parts that seem indefensible like the number of goals from far post crosses. Later versions of the game steadily improved the ME. This is probably why you remember early hostility that got better later. There was also a lot of annoyance that there was a version of the game (13.1.3 I think) which was good and then a subsequent version (13.2.0) which was a big step backwards. There was a lot of anger about the fact that SI allowed this to be released when it was so clearly worse, and the fact that steam doesn't allow you to roll back to previous versions.

This for me sums up fm13. The whole 12 step guide was basically telling people the game couldn't do what you wanted it too because you didn't know what you were doing. Yet on proper release of the game, in its current state it could.

Rather than acknowledging the game sucked, the forum decided to sticky the 12 step guide and support the fact we were all idiots that couldn't be trusted to know what players should do the simplest of things like pass or tackle. FM is a great game, now. But as said, if you remember hostility before the latest patch it was down to this and the way in which you presented yourself.

Personally, as some one that has played manager games in various forms for over 20 years the reason I am still playing now is because it feels like I have only had the game a few months. It just took that long for it to be in a playable state

[wwfan]

Then you get the people that say, "Do you ever think, it might be you?". Yeah, I do. That's what attracts me to this kind of game, but like I said, I just know that it's something else. I am talking about years of experience with FM, and over 200 hours at least just reading about FM13, blogs, guides, on and on, and I am talking about not having minor failures, but being sacked - that level of failure at this particular game, when I am following everything anyone tells me, whether it's from this site, FM Scout, FM Base, blogs, YouTube, etc... no, I'm sorry but if you can prove, in a video, in step by step detail that you can be successful in this game with say, a team from 2nd divisione in Italy... in detail through the video, with no RTFME or anything else, then I'll believe it, and only when I can follow that video and replicate it. I just don't believe it.

I can talk you through it if you are willing to start a thread in the tactics section. LLM is pretty easy as you don't need to have much tactical sophistication, just a few players who do certain things better than the divisional average, a way of getting the ball to them, a basic home and away approach, and an encouraging motivational strategy.

I'd be very wary of listening to the tactical and team talk debates on some of those sites. They tend towards far too much reductionist thought, which misses out on the contextual complexity of FM.

[themadsheep2001]

For me it wasn't so much a case of learning about the ME or reading guides, it was the drastic changes in the ME from version to version that changed opinion. The original (13.0.0?) was awful. I remember you defending it, even the parts that seem indefensible like the number of goals from far post crosses. Later versions of the game steadily improved the ME. This is probably why you remember early hostility that got better later. There was also a lot of annoyance that there was a version of the game (13.1.3 I think) which was good and then a subsequent version (13.2.0) which was a big step backwards. There was a lot of anger about the fact that SI allowed this to be released when it was so clearly worse, and the fact that steam doesn't allow you to roll back to previous versions.

This for me sums up fm13. The whole 12 step guide was basically telling people the game couldn't do what you wanted it too because you didn't know what you were doing. Yet on proper release of the game, in its current state it could.

Rather than acknowledging the game sucked, the forum decided to sticky the 12 step guide and support the fact we were all idiots that couldn't be trusted to know what players should do the simplest of things like pass or tackle. FM is a great game, now. But as said, if you remember hostility before the latest patch it was down to this and the way in which you presented yourself.

Personally, as some one that has played manager games in various forms for over 20 years the reason I am still playing now is because it feels like I have only had the game a few months. It just took that long for it to be in a playable state

Talk about missing the point then, because even 13.3 many people took advice, and from what was a general guide. It also never said game could do what you wanted.

You didn't have to follow it. It certainly didn't make anyone out to be idiots. You didn't even have to read it. It was there to help those who felt needed it. In fact its the exact kind of thing that should appear with every single iteration (accessibility is still the single biggest issue in FM, far more than any bug)

I find it bizarre that people take offence when offered advice, or when advice is put up. Like many others I've been playing a long time, and though I had no major issues at any point during FM13 even with the problems it faced, I'm never adverse to seeing if I can learn something new.

[Gooner SJ]

I can talk you through it if you are willing to start a thread in the tactics section. LLM is pretty easy as you don't need to have much tactical sophistication, just a few players who do certain things better than the divisional average, a way of getting the ball to them, a basic home and away approach, and an encouraging motivational strategy.

I'd be very wary of listening to the tactical and team talk debates on some of those sites. They tend towards far too much reductionist thought, which misses out on the contextual complexity of FM.

We'll see. Like I said, I've taken this to the point of experimentation. Teams projected for 1st and 2nd, just absolutely panicking when the other team presses for the whole game, for example. One persons says, use pass into space when that happens, another person says drop deeper and play narrower, pass to feet, retain possession - it doesn't make the players do anything differently.

[lemeures]

You don't have to read anything, but wether im struggling or just curious if I can be better I browse. If you don't read something how do you know if its any good?!

You had things like 'unless you know what youre doing don't change things' and for me that's not playing the game properly. If I want my player to act differently from pre set instructions within the TC I should be able to do so. Also it may be a language or colture thing, but when you consistently say things like that it comes across like you are talking to people like they are idiots.

For me personally, changing the ME so drastically ment I wasn't learning something new, just new ways around the ME flaws that I shouldn't of had too. Hence the latest version feeling like a new game. And I feel its a game that with the right player being asked does do generally what I want...

I guess, as discussed above its the sort of thing that is needed by newer players of the game. I would much prefer a simple post say "we screwed up, come back when steam has told you the new patch is out and we can start having fun!"

[wwfan]

You don't have to read anything, but wether im struggling or just curious if I can be better I browse. If you don't read something how do you know if its any good?!

You had things like 'unless you know what youre doing don't change things' and for me that's not playing the game properly. If I want my player to act differently from pre set instructions within the TC I should be able to do so. Also it may be a language or colture thing, but when you consistently say things like that it comes across like you are talking to people like they are idiots.

For me personally, changing the ME so drastically ment I wasn't learning something new, just new ways around the ME flaws that I shouldn't of had too. Hence the latest version feeling like a new game. And I feel its a game that with the right player being asked does do generally what I want...

I guess, as discussed above its the sort of thing that is needed by newer players of the game. I would much prefer a simple post say "we screwed up, come back when steam has told you the new patch is out and we can start having fun!"

It's not a culture difference. It's a perception difference. You want to use the sliders and think that using them is "playing the game properly". I don't think it is. I think applying tactical concepts and knowing why they work or fail is "playing the game properly". Sliders are tools, not concepts. Unless you are 100% sure how the tools work, you won't be able to make concepts, and you'll end up struggling.

You've interpreted my advice as treating people like idiots because I'm suggesting they don't know how the sliders work. That's not the case. I'm saying that the sliders are so abstract that there's almost no way for anybody to properly understand how they work or interact. The sliders are the problem, not the people who use them. Of the 180,000+ members on this forum, I doubt more than a handful could make a good stab at explaining how each slider works.

The FM13 ME, from the off, stopped a huge number of illogical tactics that previously worked because of the lack of collision detection in their tracks. Some of those were slider-illogical, whereas others were one-dimensional. Certain tendencies in the ME hugely punished slider-illogical defences and one-dimensional attacks. At no time did the ME ever make logical tactics look bad. Consequently, my advice was "trust the TC", as that immediately eliminated slider-illogical tactics and enabled us to focus on helping those suffering from one-dimensionality. I could have launched into a long discussion of how sliders work, but as the TC does that for me, why should I need to?