Reflections and Thoughts on FM13

[dafuge]

I'm also interested to know if anybody's playing methodology has fundamentally shifted as a direct result of the ME changes introduced in FM13.

I've not changed my tactics in the slightest, in fact I'm still pretty much using the tactic I designed on FM11.

[Guest]

My main tactic was imported to FM13 from my FM12 save, it has remained more or less unchanged since FM11.

[Wizard boy]

Do shouts override individual and team instructions and like if put press more in team instructions would that affect my shout to hassle opponents?

[dooro23]

I'm a bit surprised that, despite people stating that they are succesfully playing the tactical part of FM, there are people that exclude this fact out of the equation and blame the ME. I'm not referring to simple criticism, but the claim the ME is "broken" or "random", when many others are able to logically interact with tactics.

So logically thinking, it must be the user that is doing something "wrong" - regardless of his achievements outside of FM.

Better accessibility via tutorials or whatever is something else, of course...

[MichaelBrown]

I don't agree that the mods defended the ME with "it's your tactics". We consistently accepted the ME was rough while arguing it required a more logical tactical approach because of the reworked ball physics and the addition of collision detection. We suggested that people might better appreciate the ME if they reflected on their tactical approach, rather than loading up tactics that worked in previous MEs then ranting how the football was terrible. We were saying this because the tactics we were using were not producing terrible football and made the ME look quite solid.

It was never a blind defence, but an empirical one. I don't think there's a single mod who would unreflectively praise something that wasn't working. For example, when the super-dribblers emerged, not one mod suggested that this was anything other than a problem and one that needed to be fixed. We also proffered a workaround solution (which we also got abused for doing).

Although a few vocal people vehemently objected to this argument, saying they knew how to play FM and it definitely wasn't their tactics, there were a good number of people who changed their tactical approach and began to see good football, which backed up our position. If we weren't pretty sure that this we knew what going on (and we became more and more sure as time went on), we'd have been as lost and as emotional as many others.

I accepted that people were used to the previous engine and that tactics were designed to the FM12 'style' so to speak. However, some threads turned into slanging matches between the two camps and unfortunately moderators got involved in this. I'm not saying you vehemently defended the game, but some times, as someone who was just watching, I don't think mods helped the situation. It was quite hard to play good football on the old ME because it was quite poor. It was a mix of both things, poor tactics and a poor ME in my eyes.

Like I said, people do not abuse you guys for the fun of it. You're in an unfortunate position because you (even though you don't, in a way) essentially represent the guys who create the game. Likewise, the super dribblers came after the first patch IIRC, and arguably the patches were solving one issue and creating another. As people spend a fair bit of money on the game, you have to sympathise with people who were fed up of the issues.

[themadsheep2001]

I accepted that people were used to the previous engine and that tactics were designed to the FM12 'style' so to speak. However, some threads turned into slanging matches between the two camps and unfortunately moderators got involved in this. I'm not saying you vehemently defended the game, but some times, as someone who was just watching, I don't think mods helped the situation. It was quite hard to play good football on the old ME because it was quite poor. It was a mix of both things, poor tactics and a poor ME in my eyes.

Like I said, people do not abuse you guys for the fun of it. You're in an unfortunate position because you (even though you don't, in a way) essentially represent the guys who create the game. Likewise, the super dribblers came after the first patch IIRC, and arguably the patches were solving one issue and creating another. As people spend a fair bit of money on the game, you have to sympathise with people who were fed up of the issues.

To be fair to them they don't represent SI. And frustration or not, there was never an excuse for anyone to be abusing anyone else if I'm honest. They had/have their own (varied) opinions on it. But everyone seems to take their opinins as the voice of SI. I did enjoy one user telling Ackter he couldn't have an opinion on the game. I Needless to say, Ackter's response was... direct

On the ME though, watching some of the play again, lateral movement is disappointing, never see a player just peeling to the side from stationary to find that extra space.

I'd also like someone specialist to come in advise on keepers, just seems like they are so far behind outfield players.

[MichaelBrown]

To be fair to them they don't represent SI. And frustration or not, there was never an excuse for anyone to be abusing anyone else if I'm honest. They had/have their own (varied) opinions on it. But everyone seems to take their opinins as the voice of SI. I did enjoy one user telling Ackter he couldn't have an opinion on the game. I Needless to say, Ackter's response was... direct

On the ME though, watching some of the play again, lateral movement is disappointing, never see a player just peeling to the side from stationary to find that extra space.

I'd also like someone specialist to come in advise on keepers, just seems like they are so far behind outfield players.

That's why I said 'even though they don't.' But people will probably think that they do represent the forums. I don't necessarily think it was full on abuse either, more frustration which I can kinda understand.

[CityAndColour]

But then you get a mod like Cleon who just inflames posters with arrogance.

[martyyyyy]

I can't play FM13... its so boring and ugly. PLEASE BRING BACK THE SIDEBARS!

[SRL88]

But then you get a mod like Cleon who just inflames posters with arrogance.

If you have any issues with the moderating on the forums please us the 'contact us' button at the bottom of the page.

[MichaelBrown]

If you have any issues with the moderating on the forums please us the 'contact us' button at the bottom of the page.

Bit of a cop out, it's usually better to tell somebody 'to their face' (even though its not possible.) I'm not going to say that Cleon is the only one, but I too found that some posts were condescending and arrogant.

[SRL88]

Bit of a cop out, it's usually better to tell somebody 'to their face' (even though its not possible.) I'm not going to say that Cleon is the only one, but I too found that some posts were condescending and arrogant.

It isn't a 'cop out' at all. It is a genuine thing that if people have an issue with forms of moderation they should use the contact us button. No personal issues should really be posted in plain sight. If not, then PM the person rather than posting it in a thread.

[lemeures]

I don't think we are going to agree on this, and I doubt you're going to just agree I am right

On the tactical side, I am more prone to shorter passing patient build ups as I feel they are more effective with the new match engine. In previous versions, when I tried this I would find it almost ineffective as the team would ignore a simpler more dangerous ball forward, or the typical through ball. Now the players generally seem better at deciding, though as discussed in other posts there is still some work needed for the typical Gerrard through ball. Defensively you can now set this up with a 4-1-2-1-2 for instance and the midfield wont just leave your full backs open like in previous versions, so that is a huge improvement I have enjoyed.

[dking]

FM2013 has been one of my least favourite versions. One thing that sticks out is how bad the ME was for way too long, and it still looks very unrealistic. I've found myself face palming way too often when watching games and it really ruins it for me.

I'm hoping the new version is a massive improvement, and I'm guessing it will be as it will probably be what FM2013 should have been.

[tomtuck01]

It doesn't look unrealistic anymore at all.

[dking]

It doesn't look unrealistic anymore at all.

Yeah, it's just like watching a real game. Nothing strange ever happens.

[tomtuck01]

Yeah, it's just like watching a real game. Nothing strange ever happens.

Erm, it's a computer game, if you hadn't noticed - it's merely a realistic representation, silly. And it's not a hugely unrealistic representation, as it happens.

[Guest]

Don't worry iirc dking has been doggin' on the game for a few versions now.

[dking]

Erm, it's a computer game, if you hadn't noticed - it's merely a realistic representation, silly. And it's not a hugely unrealistic representation, as it happens.

I had noticed. I'd also noticed that the ME does some ridiculous things sometimes that are completely unrealistic and look ridiculous, but hey, according to you "it's not unrealistic at all anymore", right?

I guess we'll agree to disagree.

[tomtuck01]

On the whole, it's not unrealistic. Nevermind, we'll leave you be in your own little world.

[dking]

Don't worry iirc dking has been doggin' on the game for a few versions now.

Well that certainly set the record straight and proved, without a doubt, that I'm wrong about some ridiculous things happening in the ME!

And for the record, I've quite enjoyed the previous versions, with the odd whinge, at least more than this version.

[tomtuck01]

Well of course some strange things happen, I never said they didn't. Just said that on the whole it is pretty realistic.

[dking]

On the whole, it's not unrealistic. Nevermind, we'll leave you be in your own little world.

The irony is through the roof.

I'm so bored of the trolling (it surely must be) and blind fanboyism around some parts of these forums that I'll just move along. Have fun discussing how realistic the ME is

[wwfan]

There are five things that I'd like to see improved ME wise.

Firstly, the number of times a player in a good attacking position hits a 20+ yard pass backwards rather than a) a short give and go backpass or b) trying a more difficult pass to a player in a good position. Secondly, when a player chooses to take a long shot when his body angle makes it impossible to get it on target. Thirdly, the general defensive vacating of the wings meaning the FB in the final third is always left one on one with the ball carrier. Fourthly, although it is much better than previously, a better relationship between d-line position and pressing behaviour of attacking players. Fifthly, more aggressive lateral movement in attack and defence.

I don't think there's much outside the above that is disastrously bad.

[drum]

my biggest gripe w/ match engine , too much playing behind players instead of into space [ahead of them]

*just read the post above me .. same as his 1st point ..

[themadsheep2001]

There are five things that I'd like to see improved ME wise.

Firstly, the number of times a player in a good attacking position hits a 20+ yard pass backwards rather than a) a short give and go backpass or b) trying a more difficult pass to a player in a good position. Secondly, when a player chooses to take a long shot when his body angle makes it impossible to get it on target. Thirdly, the general defensive vacating of the wings meaning the FB in the final third is always left one on one with the ball carrier. Fourthly, although it is much better than previously, a better relationship between d-line position and pressing behaviour of attacking players. Fifthly, more aggressive lateral movement in attack and defence.

I don't think there's much outside the above that is disastrously bad.

In addition the above, I'd look the number of headers actively sent backwards for corners, often under no pressure. Whereas in real life, players will avoid giving away corners as much as possible

[Guest]

A few of the ME improvements that I'm looking for are;

1. Keepers to challenge for balls sent into the box, at the moment unless it is drilled right at them they remain stationary.

2. Aerial collision detection.

3. Tempo to be split into passing tempo & movement tempo, tactically they are very different but FM covers tempo under a single setting.

4. Improvements to the fatigue system, at the moment low condition only increases the risk of injury, physical, technical & mental performance tend to be unhindered by fatigue.

5. Pitch condition to have a much greater & of course more realistic affect on the ball, hopefully year 2 of ball physics will see a vast improvement.

[looknohands]

I have to say that I've been relatively pleased with how FM13 has played out on the field; I'm still using the same tactic that saw me through FM11 and 12, though I'm no longer quite as dominant as in those years (by MLS standards, at least.) The game was definitely a bit tougher at the start as manager reputation has a huge impact. My talks (as well as my assistant, with 17 motivation) failed to ever truly inspire my squad until the third season or so, after meeting with some small success in minor competitions.

In terms of the actual ME, I'm getting really tired of seeing the quick goals/counters scored off of goal kicks.

My complaints with FM13 are pretty much legacy issues that still haven't been worked out:

- Press conferences are so utterly tedious and bland, I wish I could skip them...but the potential rammifications of having your assman say the wrong thing and upset the squad are too costly to ignore.

- AI squad development (particularly in MLS, wherein teams sign and release players at a frightening pace)

- Older players having their physical attributes decline to the point that they become worthless by the age of 34.

FM13-specific complaint:

- I dislike the new training schedules. For example, I had a newgen striker with 18 for acceleration and 17 for pace, plenty for the level of competition in MLS. In previous years, I would have assigned his training schedule to focus more on technical attributes at the expense of physical training, but this version doesn't give us the option of doing so.

[CityAndColour]

Keepers having a presence in the six yard box is the biggest ME improvement I want to see, as it's the most glaring issue with the current ME for me.

I'm not sure how much of it is to do with collision detection, but keepers being more aware and proactive in the six yard box would have a positive effect on a number of issues:

1) Free-kicks from straight on getting hit to the six yard box, where an attacker breaks and heads in or over from 5-6 yards. Should be collected or punched by the keeper almost every time but never is.

2) Would reduce the number of "he didn't mean that!" goals, although this has already drastically reduced in recent updates.

3) Would reduce the effectiveness of deep crosses where one winger crosses and the other taps in at the far post. Almost all of these go within a few feet of the keeper who doesn't react.

4) Would reduce the effectiveness of balls hit across the six yard box - would love to see a brave keeper come off his line to punch low, or try to cut the ball out at the near post rather than just standing still on his goal line.

That's not to say there shouldn't be keeping errors, but it is hard not to get frustrated when you concede a header from 2 yards out and watch your keeper just standing still on the line. If it's going to be an error, make it the keeper missing his punch, or dropping the ball under pressure etc.

Right now keepers for me are by far the worst part of the match engine, as they are just completely static and unresponsive.

[Overmars]

In conclusion, it looks to me that after a short, often painful learning process, many people have adapted to FM13's more robust ME and are enjoying the game. My question is whether this is the case and, whether it is or not, what things are people finding good and bad about FM13. I'm also interested to know if anybody's playing methodology has fundamentally shifted as a direct result of the ME changes introduced in FM13.

I don't think I ever adapted. I just got frustrated. I think the game got more realistic, and I'm pretty sure the fake part where I used to win with mediocre teams was what I really enjoyed.

[Guest]

Keepers having a presence in the six yard box is the biggest ME improvement I want to see, as it's the most glaring issue with the current ME for me.I'm not sure how much of it is to do with collision detection, but keepers being more aware and proactive in the six yard box would have a positive effect on a number of Right now keepers for me are by far the worst part of the match engine, as they are just completely static and unresponsive.

After playing an FM11 clan game last night I'm starting to think that collision detection/avoidance is the problem as well as the solution. It didn't take long before I notice my keeper coming off his line to challenge for crosses played into a crowed area.

What I think has happened is that FM13 keepers are aware of potential collisions but rather than putting their body where it might hurt to claim a ball into the area they are calculating that the risk of being hit by an incoming attacker is too great & therefore stay on their line to play it safe.

Obviously attacking players have no such concerns so I am wondering what influence, if any bravery has on a keepers decision making.

[tajj 7]

Keepers having a presence in the six yard box is the biggest ME improvement I want to see, as it's the most glaring issue with the current ME for me.

I'm not sure how much of it is to do with collision detection, but keepers being more aware and proactive in the six yard box would have a positive effect on a number of issues:

1) Free-kicks from straight on getting hit to the six yard box, where an attacker breaks and heads in or over from 5-6 yards. Should be collected or punched by the keeper almost every time but never is.

2) Would reduce the number of "he didn't mean that!" goals, although this has already drastically reduced in recent updates.

3) Would reduce the effectiveness of deep crosses where one winger crosses and the other taps in at the far post. Almost all of these go within a few feet of the keeper who doesn't react.

4) Would reduce the effectiveness of balls hit across the six yard box - would love to see a brave keeper come off his line to punch low, or try to cut the ball out at the near post rather than just standing still on his goal line.

That's not to say there shouldn't be keeping errors, but it is hard not to get frustrated when you concede a header from 2 yards out and watch your keeper just standing still on the line. If it's going to be an error, make it the keeper missing his punch, or dropping the ball under pressure etc.

Right now keepers for me are by far the worst part of the match engine, as they are just completely static and unresponsive.

This really, very frustrating to concede goals from this, I think far too many goals are conceded from crosses, be it free-kicks, drilled crosses, floaty crosses etc. Most of it stems from the keeper and in some cases the defenders simply not reacting to the ball, it leads to headers scored from literally 2 yards with no movement from the defensive players/keeper. Not to mention the goals where the attacker will slide through 3 of your players to put a low cross in.

[BiggusD]

Overall, I like the general flow of the game in FM13. The shifts in tempo, the teamwork, the passing game when it "clicks" are all better than ever. However, as I said above - to me there is a lack of variation in strategy that is the main ME problem. I think this is tied to an early version of the "collision detection" programming. What I aim at here is the effectiveness of the attribute Strength in the ME; along with Jumping, these are very crucial in both attack and defense to the point that breaking down a physically superior defense is a rare occurence. I see this not primarily from what I'm doing in attack, which could be flawed, but what the AI teams manage to do against me once I have assembled the kind of defense I am looking for.

So I sign physically strong players everywhere, preferably big ones in all positions. The exceptions are central defenders and wingers - the former because "preferably" doesn't quite cut it there (sub-15 Jumping = useless) and the latter because 17+ Pace and Acceleration are necessary for them to go past the full back regardless of that one's quickness. They won't even bother trying to make a run against an alert and well-positioned full back before reaching 16 pace. This makes Oscar, an excellent footballer by any account, useless since he's too weak to play anywhere else but he's got only 15 Acc/Pace and 15 in Dribbling in my save (in 2021) - well useless is a bit harsh as he can certainly control and pass a ball, but against a 10-man deep defense that won't unsettle them that often. In previous versions a player's skill going past a player wouldn't stop him from trying, only from succeeding.

This leads me to the overreliance on runs with the ball to create chances, which I find quite a bit unrealistic. Right in front of the goal, if I have many players in and around the box, I might be able to tici-tacaing myself into a scoring position, but a player making a successful run is more efficient. Having players with run PPM's are good stuff both in midfield and attack. This is partially what makes Wilshere so good as a central midfielder. If you play 442 and everyone but the central defenders have "runs with ball often" PPMs you're set for a lot of chances. That is, if they are strong and quick.

So big, strong, quick players who are good at dribbling = teh win? What about finesse? Advanced strategies; tactical magick? Nah. Inefficient - and even if it is not, tactical magick with big, strong, quick players who are good at dribbling will be better than without.

Yesterday I played first season with Las Palmas and tried a stock TC 433 (with inside forwards). It worked very well, except that I struggled to break down the defense. So I subbed my 10 strength striker for a 14 strength striker of roughly equal quality elsewhere except in Pace (half a star weaker according to my assistant). He scored twice within 10 minutes. I guess he was less affected by the collision detection...

[Gary_Parker]

My question is whether this is the case and, whether it is or not, what things are people finding good and bad about FM13. I'm also interested to know if anybody's playing methodology has fundamentally shifted as a direct result of the ME changes introduced in FM13.

I've actually found that the new ME produces the football I want to ideally see as a spectator. My main shift in methodology has been in the background, changing the focus on training, PPMs and the playing personalities to form the squad I want to play the football I want. Yep the ME still has work to be done to be better, the 3D doesn't help at times but that can only improve too.

Theres no longer 1 way to play the game, theres no downloadable tactics that work for every team as now every team plays differently, theres more focus on player stats (other than pace > all). Way better than FM12 for me, hopefully 14 will be further improvement still.

[darthrodent]

This is something that I mentioned a while back, SI really need to help new or returning players get to grips with the vast array of options & data they are presented with as I have no doubt that it can be very overwhelming, the current method of doing things risks losing those new players after just 1 year.

With the right collaboration between SI & some of the more eloquent forum users I'm sure that a very informative & well written guide could be put together & sold at let's say £4.99, so many games that do not need them get walk through guides (achievement maps) yet the games that really do need in-depth manuals are shipped out in a work it out for yourself fashion.

What?! Why on earth would anyone want to buy the game and a guide? How about SI simply produce a manual that actually covers the game's mechanics? It's very difficult to get a concrete answer since our solutions are borne of forum conjecture. That's not to say that user experiences aren't valid, not at all; I just I want to know the game's boundaries so I can make logical decisions within them.

[Guest]

Because all those walk through guides are printed for the fun if it & never turn a profit.

Personally I like to figure things out as I go & never read the manual when SI supplied one when some level of depth, nothing wrong making a little money from a separate guide for those that would find it useful.

I think there is a market because FM-B produced an unofficial one a few years ago.

[tajj 7]

Case in point on how stupid the ME can be with these 3 examples, all lead to CC chances for the opposition team and cost me two goals:-

Example 1.

- My Corner, ball is cleared in the air.

- My full back heads ball back towards goal. My midfielder who the ball is heading towards stops running for no reason? This allows opposition striker to run down the length of the pitch. (left side)

- Above full back runs not towards the ball carrier, but just tracks his run from the centre of the pitch?, He ends up standing in the box despite two other covering defenders and no one is there to try and block the cross.

- ball is crossed into the box and goes through FOUR off my defenders, to an attacker who chests the ball down and WALKS past my keeper.

Example 2

- my full back receives a pass from my wide player.

- opposition left wing moves to close him down.

- he has 3 pass options inside to my 3 centre-mids.

- so instead he pings the ball over the heads of all 3 right across my goal to an opposition midfielder.

- who brings it down and slides a perfect through ball to their striker to score as he's under zero pressure.

Example 3

- Centre-back receives the ball on the half way line, he has two EASY pass options, one to his fellow centre-back and one to my defensive both are unmarked with no player closer than 15 yards to them.

- what does he do, he WALKS forward with the ball about 10 yards, gets closed down by a striker who was previously a good 25 yards away from him and gets tackled.

- This leaves a 2 v 1 against my other centre-back who promptly jumps underneath a lofted ball as the first striker plays his partner in. The original centre-back and the fullback actually both get back on the cover but neither attempt to tackle and just run alongside the attacker allowing him to shoot, with my keeper saving it.

Now I can understand some mistakes but some of the things you see when you watch games is astonishing. I also watches in the same game two of my attackers, with no one around them (20 yards to the nearest player) head highballs directly out of play instead of bringing it down?

[darthrodent]

Because all those walk through guides are printed for the fun if it & never turn a profit.

Personally I like to figure things out as I go & never read the manual when SI supplied one when some level of depth, nothing wrong making a little money from a separate guide for those that would find it useful.

I think there is a market because FM-B produced an unofficial one a few years ago.

I'm not saying that there should be no guides—far from it, pal. I'm as capitalist as the next person and I'm all about the free market and profit. But it sounded to me as though you wanted a thorough guide in lieu of a manual that would come at an extra cost. I'm like you, I like to figure things out myself, but there is a distinct difference between (1) being spoon fed success and (2) understanding the capabilities and—indeed—the limitations of the game's engine. I give you two scenarios:

(1) By playing a 4-5-1 against Swansea, having Mentality set to 7, Creative Freedom set to 10, ticking Counter Attack Yes, by Zonal Marking, and by having your Full Backs overlap will make sure you win.

(2) Mentality, Creative Freedom, and Forward Runs are linked. Mentality is the 'aggressiveness' of your players; the higher it is, the more forward-thinking and urgent your players will be. Combined with Mentality, Creative Freedom will govern how strict your players adhere to your tactics and to the urgency in which they do so.

#1 is clearly a "paint by numbers" strategy that requires no skill whatsoever. Please take example #2 with a grain of salt (it's merely for illustrative purposes but I think you get the idea). I hope you can see that #2 is a lot more conceptual and open to interpretation than #1. I would love there to be documentation containing some kind of tactical matrix or grid in which all the sliders are broken down into footballing concepts and it is shown how exactly every slider interacts with every other. By understanding what is possible within the Football Manager playground, one can apply his or her real-life footballing philosophies through those concepts and tools.

[Guest]

Proper manuals are long gone, they are sorely missed (I always loved Microprose for their manuals) & I would love them to make a comeback, unfortunately they will never return which is why my thinking gravitated more towards an FM for Dummies style guide.

[darthrodent]

This forum is both a blessing and a curse. As of right now I have no clue what is empirically, undeniably true and what is conjecture forged from the fires of these threads. The conspiracy theorist in me believes that SI relishes the mystery that this forum generates; we are all guilty of it: we impart the game with such a mythical sense of complexity and because of how many variables are running at any given moment, it's an impossible task sometimes to infer that x occurred solely due to y. Because the game is so inherently ambiguous it's very easy therefore—similar to the 'God of the Gaps' concept—to imply causality or agency where none exists.

My point is that I want to know exactly what the game is capable of; I'm not happy with the illusion of its complexity. I want to know, for example, unequivocally, that it's possible (hold that thought, it's important) that by playing my veteran defender with an Influence of 20 in the World Cup Final ahead of my world-class 18 year old with an Influence of 7, the back four will be more cohesive and will defend better as a unit because his Influence is 20.

Notice that I said I wanted to know that it's possible. I don't want it to be inevitably true that every time I play a defender with an Influence of 20 that my defence plays better as a unit, but I do want to know exactly what Influence can do. The effects of Influence are coded into the engine or they aren't; therefore there are truths about the Influence attribute that I would like to be privy to. My gripe with this forum—with any forum—is that Maxwell Biggerson, poster extraordinaire and lurker since 1992 could tell me exactly what Influence does…in his mind. Then the meme of Influence spreads—whether it's true or not—SI are happy because we reinforce the game's greatness and complexity, and I'm making decisions that aren't anywhere near grounded in truth. If I had documentation that stated how Influence affects the player who has the attribute and how that Influence is then manifested on the pitch, I could make logical decisions based around that truth—that's how science works!

If you've ever read wwfan's work on complacency and winning/losing streaks and you believe his inferences to be true (I myself have no reason to think otherwise) then by definition you're accessing information that SI has hidden from us; extremely useful information it has to be said. Knowing that players experience complacency is by no means synonymous to being spoon fed success. Far from it, knowledge is power and from this knowledge the user can make decisions based around it. Expand that idea to the whole of the game and you will see exactly what it is I want from the game: I want to know exactly, unequivocally, the game's capabilities and its boundaries so I can make logical, rational decisions based on concrete concepts conformed by the game's makers.

[Gooner SJ]

This forum is both a blessing and a curse. As of right now I have no clue what is empirically, undeniably true and what is conjecture forged from the fires of these threads. The conspiracy theorist in me believes that SI relishes the mystery that this forum generates; we are all guilty of it: we impart the game with such a mythical sense of complexity and because of how many variables are running at any given moment, it's an impossible task sometimes to infer that x occurred solely due to y. Because the game is so inherently ambiguous it's very easy therefore—similar to the 'God of the Gaps' concept—to imply causality or agency where none exists.

My point is that I want to know exactly what the game is capable of; I'm not happy with the illusion of its complexity. I want to know, for example, unequivocally, that it's possible (hold that thought, it's important) that by playing my veteran defender with an Influence of 20 in the World Cup Final ahead of my world-class 18 year old with an Influence of 7, the back four will be more cohesive and will defend better as a unit because his Influence is 20.

Notice that I said I wanted to know that it's possible. I don't want it to be inevitably true that every time I play a defender with an Influence of 20 that my defence plays better as a unit, but I do want to know exactly what Influence can do. The effects of Influence are coded into the engine or they aren't; therefore there are truths about the Influence attribute that I would like to be privy to. My gripe with this forum—with any forum—is that Maxwell Biggerson, poster extraordinaire and lurker since 1992 could tell me exactly what Influence does…in his mind. Then the meme of Influence spreads—whether it's true or not—SI are happy because we reinforce the game's greatness and complexity, and I'm making decisions that aren't anywhere near grounded in truth. If I had documentation that stated how Influence affects the player who has the attribute and how that Influence is then manifested on the pitch, I could make logical decisions based around that truth—that's how science works!

If you've ever read wwfan's work on complacency and winning/losing streaks and you believe his inferences to be true (I myself have no reason to think otherwise) then by definition you're accessing information that SI has hidden from us; extremely useful information it has to be said. Knowing that players experience complacency is by no means synonymous to being spoon fed success. Far from it, knowledge is power and from this knowledge the user can make decisions based around it. Expand that idea to the whole of the game and you will see exactly what it is I want from the game: I want to know exactly, unequivocally, the game's capabilities and its boundaries so I can make logical, rational decisions based on concrete concepts conformed by the game's makers.

Spot on.

[phnompenhandy]

This forum is both a blessing and a curse. As of right now I have no clue what is empirically, undeniably true and what is conjecture forged from the fires of these threads. The conspiracy theorist in me believes that SI relishes the mystery that this forum generates; we are all guilty of it: we impart the game with such a mythical sense of complexity and because of how many variables are running at any given moment, it's an impossible task sometimes to infer that x occurred solely due to y. Because the game is so inherently ambiguous it's very easy therefore—similar to the 'God of the Gaps' concept—to imply causality or agency where none exists.

My point is that I want to know exactly what the game is capable of; I'm not happy with the illusion of its complexity. I want to know, for example, unequivocally, that it's possible (hold that thought, it's important) that by playing my veteran defender with an Influence of 20 in the World Cup Final ahead of my world-class 18 year old with an Influence of 7, the back four will be more cohesive and will defend better as a unit because his Influence is 20.

Notice that I said I wanted to know that it's possible. I don't want it to be inevitably true that every time I play a defender with an Influence of 20 that my defence plays better as a unit, but I do want to know exactly what Influence can do. The effects of Influence are coded into the engine or they aren't; therefore there are truths about the Influence attribute that I would like to be privy to. My gripe with this forum—with any forum—is that Maxwell Biggerson, poster extraordinaire and lurker since 1992 could tell me exactly what Influence does…in his mind. Then the meme of Influence spreads—whether it's true or not—SI are happy because we reinforce the game's greatness and complexity, and I'm making decisions that aren't anywhere near grounded in truth. If I had documentation that stated how Influence affects the player who has the attribute and how that Influence is then manifested on the pitch, I could make logical decisions based around that truth—that's how science works!

If you've ever read wwfan's work on complacency and winning/losing streaks and you believe his inferences to be true (I myself have no reason to think otherwise) then by definition you're accessing information that SI has hidden from us; extremely useful information it has to be said. Knowing that players experience complacency is by no means synonymous to being spoon fed success. Far from it, knowledge is power and from this knowledge the user can make decisions based around it. Expand that idea to the whole of the game and you will see exactly what it is I want from the game: I want to know exactly, unequivocally, the game's capabilities and its boundaries so I can make logical, rational decisions based on concrete concepts conformed by the game's makers.

Utterly brilliant - 100% spot on.

Now let's tie this to the OP - this is wwfan's thread. wwfan, maybe you can't respond to my questions at all, but I'll ask anyway: you are not "Maxwell Biggerson" - you have some degree of access to the inner working of the ME although not, as far as I understand, to the coding. So my question is this - without giving out any specifics, do you have knowledge of how the game works that is essentially different to the "Maxwell Biggersons"amongst us? I mean, there are many of us here who follow your advice over that of any other individual poster/expert on this or any other website, so does your advice come 100% from close analysis of the game just like the rest of us (but more so - i.e. you are 'SuperMaxwell'), or is some of your advice a result of privileged knowledge of the ME that we don't have access to?

[lemeures]

This forum is both a blessing and a curse. As of right now I have no clue what is empirically, undeniably true and what is conjecture forged from the fires of these threads. The conspiracy theorist in me believes that SI relishes the mystery that this forum generates; we are all guilty of it: we impart the game with such a mythical sense of complexity and because of how many variables are running at any given moment, it's an impossible task sometimes to infer that x occurred solely due to y. Because the game is so inherently ambiguous it's very easy therefore—similar to the 'God of the Gaps' concept—to imply causality or agency where none exists.

My point is that I want to know exactly what the game is capable of; I'm not happy with the illusion of its complexity. I want to know, for example, unequivocally, that it's possible (hold that thought, it's important) that by playing my veteran defender with an Influence of 20 in the World Cup Final ahead of my world-class 18 year old with an Influence of 7, the back four will be more cohesive and will defend better as a unit because his Influence is 20.

Notice that I said I wanted to know that it's possible. I don't want it to be inevitably true that every time I play a defender with an Influence of 20 that my defence plays better as a unit, but I do want to know exactly what Influence can do. The effects of Influence are coded into the engine or they aren't; therefore there are truths about the Influence attribute that I would like to be privy to. My gripe with this forum—with any forum—is that Maxwell Biggerson, poster extraordinaire and lurker since 1992 could tell me exactly what Influence does…in his mind. Then the meme of Influence spreads—whether it's true or not—SI are happy because we reinforce the game's greatness and complexity, and I'm making decisions that aren't anywhere near grounded in truth. If I had documentation that stated how Influence affects the player who has the attribute and how that Influence is then manifested on the pitch, I could make logical decisions based around that truth—that's how science works!

If you've ever read wwfan's work on complacency and winning/losing streaks and you believe his inferences to be true (I myself have no reason to think otherwise) then by definition you're accessing information that SI has hidden from us; extremely useful information it has to be said. Knowing that players experience complacency is by no means synonymous to being spoon fed success. Far from it, knowledge is power and from this knowledge the user can make decisions based around it. Expand that idea to the whole of the game and you will see exactly what it is I want from the game: I want to know exactly, unequivocally, the game's capabilities and its boundaries so I can make logical, rational decisions based on concrete concepts conformed by the game's makers.

An amazing way to say what a lot of people must feel!

Its very frustrating when you do things solely out of habit, without knowing if it fails because its wrong or a player just had a bad day

[Herbert Fandel]

Agree darthrodent, excellently put, not least the bit about SI relishing the mystery

[themadsheep2001]

I'm not sure they relish the mystery, as we've had the TT&F guides in the past. It's just a tremendous amount of work.

It's also totally necessary.

[Herbert Fandel]

I'm not sure they relish the mystery, as we've had the TT&F guides in the past. It's just a tremendous amount of work.

It's also totally necessary.

I think they do, as as darthrodent suggests, for all we know half of the things we do are just meaningless and all fall under the ME's random elements, and we then deduce reasons from the randomised results. This is exacerbated by the fact that, quite rightly, there is always a random element even in amongst the certainties.

[themadsheep2001]

]I think they do' date=' as as darthrodent suggests, for all we know half of the things we do are just meaningless and all fall under the ME's random elements, and we then deduce reasons from the randomised results[/b']. This is exacerbated by the fact that, quite rightly, there is always a random element even in amongst the certainties.

Well no, because if they were random you couldn't come up with a coherent strategy.

This is actually best summed up by darthrodent's own thread on team talks, going from question the "randomness" of team talk, to actually appreciating all the depth and subtlety there is.

[wwfan]

Utterly brilliant - 100% spot on.

Now let's tie this to the OP - this is wwfan's thread. wwfan, maybe you can't respond to my questions at all, but I'll ask anyway: you are not "Maxwell Biggerson" - you have some degree of access to the inner working of the ME although not, as far as I understand, to the coding. So my question is this - without giving out any specifics, do you have knowledge of how the game works that is essentially different to the "Maxwell Biggersons"amongst us? I mean, there are many of us here who follow your advice over that of any other individual poster/expert on this or any other website, so does your advice come 100% from close analysis of the game just like the rest of us (but more so - i.e. you are 'SuperMaxwell'), or is some of your advice a result of privileged knowledge of the ME that we don't have access to?

That's a tough question to answer precisely. It is difficult to know which elements of my knowledge come from my involvement with TC development, which come from my analysis of the game, which come from the forums, and which come from my own research interests. I've been writing on the forums for eight odd years and involved with the TC for roughly four. All the information I've amassed has merged into a glutinous blob. Where I got each piece from is long forgotten.

What I can do is speed-read and remember things (I used to teach speed-reading and memory skills for a living). Consequently, it is very rare that I miss out on or forget any official information posted here or discussed in private. Breaking it all down into where I got what from whom is beyond me I'm afraid. Until PaulC stops telling people that they should listen to my advice when I discuss how the ME works, I feel reasonably confident I still have a good grasp of how things work.

[Herbert Fandel]

Well no, because if they were random you couldn't come up with a coherent strategy

I think you are missing my point somewhat, and in no way was I only talking about teamtalks, but I'm done for now, my main point was that I agreed with what darthrodent wrote

[themadsheep2001]

That's a tough question to answer precisely. It is difficult to know which elements of my knowledge come from my involvement with TC development, which come from my analysis of the game, which come from the forums, and which come from my own research interests. I've been writing on the forums for eight odd years and involved with the TC for roughly four. All the information I've amassed has merged into a glutinous blob. Where I got each piece from is long forgotten.

What I can do is speed-read and remember things (I used to teach speed-reading and memory skills for a living). Consequently, it is very rare that I miss out on or forget any official information posted here or discussed in private. Breaking it all down into where I got what from whom is beyond me I'm afraid. Until PaulC stops telling people that they should listen to my advice when I discuss how the ME works, I feel reasonably confident I still have a good grasp of how things work.

Given that most (if not all) of TT&F 10 remains relevant, would you ever consider doing an updated version?