Player tutoring and hidden stats

[craigd84]

Right, i thought i knew, but FM 13 seems to have kicked me a curve ball in regards to player tutoring.

what are the effects of the two tutor options,you kno under the wing ect.

Does the off thepitch under the wing option change a players hidden stats like pressure and consistancy? or the mental visable stats like composure ect?

I have done a search but couldnt find a answer that seemed clear.

Also can you say get a players consistancy from say under 10 at the age of 16 and under to 15 or above? or will his consistancy always be low?

[duduric]

IIRC, the under the wing option also allows the tutor to teach PPMs.... the other option only change stats.

[tomtuck01]

Does the off thepitch under the wing option change a players hidden stats like pressure and consistancy? or the mental visable stats like composure ect?

The only visible attribute that tutoring effects is Determination. However, that really isn't important as determination is no more important than any other mental attribute. Focus on personalties types.

[Guest Satchy]

Improve his game will affect mental attributes and also pass along PPM's the tutor has. It can also lead to the tutor becoming the favorite teammate of the tutee.

Mentor off the pitch only passes personality and determination attributes, and they won't become preferred teammates.

[tomtuck01]

Improve his game will affect mental attributes

The only (visible) mental attribue that is affected by tutoring is "Determination".

[Guest Satchy]

It also changes personality, affecting other hidden mental attributes.

[tomtuck01]

It also changes personality, affecting other hidden mental attributes.

Quite so. I apologise, the way I read it I thought you meant it changed other visible mental attributes and not just determination.

[Guest Satchy]

Yeah, I was confused just now. No worries.

[Tgwri1s]

I've done some research on this and here's what I've discovered so far:

Option 1 (help improve his game) actually helps the player in training - helps him improve faster in all of the visible attributes, as he presumably trains with the tutor. It also still affects the personality (hidden attributes + determination), sometimes a lot but sometimes only a few "points". And as some others mentioned above it transfers PPMs occasionally.

Option 2 (mentor off the field) only changes the player's hidden personality attributes and determination, and it has a much better chance of changing those to match the tutor.

F.e. with option number 2 by using Messi as a tutor you are more likely to create a carbon copy of his personality (one of the best personalities in the game), so the young player would have high determination, professionalism, ambition and pressure - all of which are important for the probability of his improvement and the way he will perform on the pitch. But keep in mind this won't change his training or help him play like Messi, he will just behave like him off the pitch. However, by increasing a player's professionalism and ambition you automatically help him train harder, so he will improve faster.

Inversely, if the tutor has some personality attributes that are worse than the tutee, the young player will more likely have his personality "ruined" if you use option 2. So in that case it's better to use option 1 just to help the player develop and hope his good attributes don't go down too much.

Consistency actually is not one of the personality attributes and it cannot be changed by tutoring. The only way consistency increases is if your player is experiencing first team football for a prolonged period of time (multiple seasons). But it cannot improve much, so a player with consistency 4 at a young age will never become really consistent. From what I've seen top teams' starters usually have consistency above 14-15, so it makes sense that players with low consistency would either star for mediocre teams or be backups in top teams.

I don't have enough data to say how much consistency can be changed at most, but if you want it to increase you will have to get the youngster to play first team football (maybe on loan) all the time, and he needs to play well.

[tomtuck01]

I've done some research on this and here's what I've discovered so far:

Option 1 (help improve his game) actually helps the player in training - helps him improve faster in all of the visible attributes, as he presumably trains with the tutor. It also still affects the personality (hidden attributes + determination), sometimes a lot but sometimes only a few "points". And as some others mentioned above it transfers PPMs occasionally.

No it doesn't.

[Tgwri1s]

No it doesn't.

Based on my empirical evidence it does, the players who were tutored by option 1 showed faster signs of improvement in training (when the tutoring was successful). Of course the tutoring can be unsuccessful with both options, so nothing or very little improves either way in that case.

But what do I know, maybe you had a look at the game's code. If that's the case I'll stand corrected.

[tomtuck01]

Well you are wrong, simple as that.

The only visible attribute that tutoring directly improves is "Determination".

[Tgwri1s]

Well you are either misunderstanding or you are the one that is in the wrong. And I never said directly.

Yes, Determination is the only visible attribute that is changed to match the one of the tutor.

But what I am saying is that being tutored helps the player train better, so his attributes (his current ability) will increase faster just because the quality of training is better.

[tomtuck01]

It only helps if the players unseen mental attributes change to make him more professional. The more professional the player, the better he trains. Hence why the best tutors to use are those who are in some way listed as "Professional". (Be it fairly, model, or just "Professional" on its own).

Oh, and the quality of traning isn't improved just because a player is being tutored. A tutor doesn't train the tutee. That's what coaches are for.

[Tgwri1s]

As I already said in my first post, what you are describing is Option 2, and I even provided an example.

Option 1, however, has less effect on the personality attributes in the majority of cases and the results of training are visible fairly quickly and even in case of average professionalism, so it's not the case of professionalism increase (depending on if tutoring is successful or not)

Both option 1 and 2 change personality attributes and help with player development, but option 1 focuses more on immediate progress (training and PPMs), while option 2 focuses on changing the personality. That's what the difference is between them, it even says so in their describing text (help improve game vs mentor off the field).

Oh, and the quality of traning isn't improved just because a player is being tutored. A tutor doesn't train the tutee. That's what coaches are for.

Then PPMs wouldn't transfer, you have coaches for them too. It seems pretty straightforward to me that having an experienced player help a youngster during training will make him improve faster. That's exactly how PPMs are transferred as well. During all that time coaches still do their thing. And everybody's happy.

[tomtuck01]

You are just whaffling now.

To put it as simply as possible; Both options effect personality traits just the same, (if tutoring is successful). The only difference is that option one can also transfer PPM's, whereas option two cannot. Neither option directly improves visible attributes, (with the exception of "Determination"), or directly ensures that the tutee trains better.

That is literally all there is to it.

[Guest Satchy]

Option 1, however, has less effect on the personality attributes in the majority of cases

Where did you get that from?

Both option 1 and 2 change personality attributes and help with player development, but option 1 focuses more on immediate progress (training and PPMs), while option 2 focuses on changing the personality. That's what the difference is between them, it even says so in their describing text (help improve game vs mentor off the field).

This isn't true in the way that you are saying. Tutoring is all about the mental side of the game. PPM's are part of a player's mental approach to the game, and personalities are of course part of a person's mental makeup. The only differences between the two options are whether they pass PPM's, and whether they can become preferred personnel.

Then PPMs wouldn't transfer, you have coaches for them too. It seems pretty straightforward to me that having an experienced player help a youngster during training will make him improve faster. That's exactly how PPMs are transferred as well. During all that time coaches still do their thing. And everybody's happy.

Again, where did you get that from?

[Tgwri1s]

To put it as simply as possible; Both options effect personality traits just the same, (if tutoring is successful). The only difference is that option one can also transfer PPM's, whereas option two cannot. Neither option directly improves visible attributes, (with the exception of "Determination"), or directly ensures that the tutee trains better.

To quote you from above - you are wrong, simple as that.

Using option 2 is much more likely to make an exact copy of the personality of the tutor in one single process (180 days). Option 1 will much more likely only slightly nudge each attribute towards the tutors' values instead of making an exact copy (meaning less change in personality attributes). That's a big difference right there.

I know that the popular belief is that what you are saying, which is one of the reasons why I even started researching this as it seemed to not make much sense that the PPMs are the only difference, but no, that's not the only difference.

[Guest Satchy]

To quote you from above - you are wrong, simple as that.

I know that the popular belief is that what you are saying, which is why I even started researching this

So, where did you get this from?

[tomtuck01]

I'm done with this now. I know I'm right, and I have it on good authority that what I am saying is correct. Enjoy your ignorance.

[Tgwri1s]

Again, where did you get that from?

I got all that from testing. Players who start getting tutored show signs of improvement faster (not only when their professionalism increases).

Of course tutoring is about the mental side of the game, but PPMs are not taught at home over tea and biscuits. They are taught on the field, so obviously the two players work together and it's not unimaginable that it affects regular training as well - simply having a mentor on the field with him helps a player improve. That latter part is naturally only my theory for why it makes sense, and I'm open to other theories as to why it happens, but the fact is that it does and it's not what 'tomtuck01' said about professionalism increasing.

[dyne]

I'm wondering how you do the research. For me to justify the research you talking about, this scenario must happen:

1. Have identical save in two different computers

2. Play the both save with the same condition:

- You tutoring one player with the same tutor, save game A you are using tutor option one while save game B you are using tutor option two

- Whatever you do with the tutor or tutee, it must happen in both save with identical result or as close as possible (for example if you play the tutee in save A and he win the match and scoring goals then the same thing must happen in save B). The reason for this is there is a lot of things that can affect player growth including play opportunities, how long he plays, morale, coach, facilities, etc.

3. at the end of tutoring (it should end at the same date on both save) you compare the player growth.

4. Repeat the step at least 2 times to make sure you get a valid research data

You can use one computer to research, but it will be more difficult to do.

[Tgwri1s]

I'm wondering how you do the research. For me to justify the research you talking about, this scenario must happen:

1. Have identical save in two different computers

2. Play the both save with the same condition:

- You tutoring one player with the same tutor, save game A you are using tutor option one while save game B you are using tutor option two

- Whatever you do with the tutor or tutee, it must happen in both save with identical result or as close as possible (for example if you play the tutee in save A and he win the match and scoring goals then the same thing must happen in save B). The reason for this is there is a lot of things that can affect player growth including play opportunities, how long he plays, morale, coach, facilities, etc.

3. at the end of tutoring (it should end at the same date on both save) you compare the player growth.

4. Repeat the step at least 2 times to make sure you get a valid research data

You can use one computer to research, but it will be more difficult to do.

Yes, that scenario would be ideal, but I do not have time for that. I did my research while progressing my save, thus spending my free time having some fun on my own and analyzing at the same time for another kind of fun-having while not botching my save. Putting the save on hold just to run these experiments is not fun, so if someone else has the time and the will to test it, I would love to see the complete results.

What I did do is record progress and outcomes of over 70 "tutorings" so far, and as I wrote above the results from option 1 lean one way, while the results from option 2 lean the other way. Obviously that is not a huge sample and it involves many different players, but it is enough to show certain tendencies.

From seeing the results I have no doubt that option 2 affects personality in a stronger way than option 1, while option 1 has on many occasions proven to help players start increasing their attributes (by very little, just one notch on the training graph) soon after tutoring begins, with nothing else changing in their regime (no change in coaches, facilities, playing time, and also no change in their professionalism attribute since it's the very beginning of the process) and with no movement in their training for a while before that due to their low professionalism and/or ambition and lack of playing time. All those things strongly imply the conclusions I stated, but if you need "scientific" proof, sadly I can't devote that much time.

There are lots of other things that could be tested about tutoring, not only this, but also how "bad tutors" would affect players (my tests were only trying to help my young players), if there is a way to change a player's mind if he says no to tutoring and what it depends on. Then one could create a perfect tutor (with all max personality attributes) and a horrible tutee (with all minimum) and see if some personality attributes are affected faster, or are more likely to be affected when using option 1. Frankly I am a little surprised that no one has done that kind of research on this topic with so many years behind us since tutoring was introduced, and that it is not common knowledge by now.

While my research may not be enough to submit for a doctorate, it's enough to learn tendencies and disprove that PPMs are the only difference. And knowing that PPMs are not the only difference, it's clear that both options have some advantage and it's practically hidden in plain sight - 'help improve game' and 'mentor off the field'.

Otherwise, what most people seem to have accepted as common knowledge is that option 2 should be used only when you want to avoid transferring PPMs, which would be what, 1 out of 10 times? I really don't understand how someone can buy that there would be 2 options for something that important and that 1 of them would be used 90% of time and the other 10%. That always seemed like one of the worst explanations of any FM feature, and my assumption was that they both have some equally important advantages compared to the other one so I decided to test it while playing.

[dyne]

Like I stated before, there is a lot of things that can affect player growth. You observe the result of 70 different tutoring, but those 70 occasions is not identical beside the tutoring so you can't claim that tutor option number 1 will help player growth better than tutor option number 2.

and the possibility that someone want to avoid PPMs are higher than you think.