(FM14) Setting Playmaker?

[TOUGHGUY]

The difference would be that the player would not become the focus of the team's attacking plays as when the box was ticked in FM13, while at the same time he would make use of particularly tailored settings. The word playmaker makes absolutely no difference and I believe I have never said anything to the contrary. You and HUNT3R seem to take a bunch of words out of context without realizing what it is I'm actually saying. I care about two concepts. One is the player role, which, simply put, emphasizes creativity and passing. The other is having a designated playmaker, a game mechanic which makes him the fulcrum of the team's attacking efforts. I would like these two not to be tied together, because I believe that an argument can easily be made for a midfield role with settings such as higher creativity and expressive passing to be included without automatically giving it the extraordinary focus of the playmaker option.

[TOUGHGUY]

I read all of your posts, but it seems like you're being stubborn about the whole thing. You can tweak things like riskier passes and forward runs, that's why I asked what you wanted to replicate that you feel you can't. If there really is something, maybe it is something worth adding to the game. We all want the game to improve.

I dare say I am not being stubborn, I genuinely feel my proposition is exceedingly simple and reasonable, but for some reason you aren't seeing what it is I am actually saying and clutch at out of context parts, i.e. the riskier passes comment. Which was not made to focus on this particular instruction, but rather used to highlight the notion that if I use it with a player, it is not the same as having the player follow the instructions of a playmaker role, or that if used to try and fashion such a role, it will be expended and the end result will lack this option for further customization and might be precise. Perhaps I was not making myself clear.

[milnerpoint]

. I care about two concepts. One is the player role, which, simply put, emphasizes creativity and passing. The other is having a designated playmaker, a game mechanic which makes him the fulcrum of the team's attacking efforts. I would like these two not to be tied together, because I believe that an argument can easily be made for a midfield role with settings such as higher creativity and expressive passing to be included without automatically giving it the extraordinary focus of the playmaker option.

Which you can do with the new system.

The other is having a designated playmaker

Which you can also do with the new system.

You can do both of these without the need for the old system.

You can set a player as a central mid, up his attacking, expression and risky passes settings and it does what you want, or you can set him as a playmaker and have the team play through him.

[TOUGHGUY]

I can do all those things, but as I have stated in this very thread only about an hour ago, the result is either not the same, or removes the possibility of instructing the player further – something you can do when using the playmaker role, except it is in my opinion unnecessarily burdened with the designated playmaker setting.

[milnerpoint]

Ok let me put it this way, what EXACTLY did ticking the playmaker box change in FM13 and previous? What is there now that you cannot do, that that box did for you?

[dafuge]

If you're after a Target Man - To Feet type, set a playmaker role. If you're after a Poacher type target man that runs onto the ball, just set more through balls on the supporting players.

What about if you have two strikers? How would you instruct your team to try and pick out a specific striker with a certain type of pass?

Oh, and how do you set more through balls?

[HUNT3R]

I can do all those things, but as I have stated in this very thread only about an hour ago, the result is either not the same, or removes the possibility of instructing the player further – something you can do when using the playmaker role, except it is in my opinion unnecessarily burdened with the designated playmaker setting.

The result isn't the same because the other players aren't actively seeking him out with their passes.

You mentioned risky passes and forward runs. Both of those you can increase or decrease. As you know from using the sliders, if these settings are on sometimes/mixed there is only one setting above and one below it. So you couldn't increase it even then. So I'm still not sure what you're trying to replicate but can't.

[TOUGHGUY]

The result isn't the same because the other players aren't actively seeking him out with their passes.

It was the player instructions I was of course referring to, not the playmaker-specific behavior of the player on the pitch.

I feel like you misunderstand my point, so let me try and repeat what I have said one more time. Playmaker roles are now tied to the playmaker setting, making them the creative fulcrum of the team beyond the scope of their higher creative freedom and passing instructions and the like, and when two or more players have a playmaker role assigned, they both will be subject to this focus.

I believe that having the role without the designated playmaker setting irreversably coupled with it would be good, seeing as there are real world examples and it follows common footballing sense.

The proposed solution to use another role can help to address this issue, but only to a degree. First, getting the same settings might not be possible, second and perhaps more importantly, by fashioning this faux playmaker, the player gives up the option to use these instructions further, something that can be done when using an actual playmaker role.

While by no means a major issue, I argue that compared to the above, simply having a '(don't) be the designated playmaker' button or something of the sort in the player instructions screen would be a much more elegant solution.

[HUNT3R]

What about if you have two strikers? How would you instruct your team to try and pick out a specific striker with a certain type of pass?

Oh, and how do you set more through balls?

Depends on who your strikers are, I guess. How are you looking to set up the two strikers using the old slider system?

To me, ask the supporting players to try riskier passes, although wwfan said players might be hardcoded to try that already if the player is a poacher. I haven't used a poacher yet, so I'm not sure.

[milnerpoint]

I feel like you misunderstand my point, so let me try and repeat what I have said one more time. Playmaker roles are now tied to the playmaker setting, making them the creative fulcrum of the team beyond the scope of their higher creative freedom and passing instructions and the like, and when two or more players have a playmaker role assigned, they both will be subject to this focus.

I believe that having the role without the designated playmaker setting irreversably coupled with it would be good, seeing as there are real world examples and it follows common footballing sense.

The proposed solution to use another role can help to address this issue, but only to a degree. First, getting the same settings might not be possible, second and perhaps more importantly, by fashioning this faux playmaker, the player gives up the option to use these instructions further, something that can be done when using an actual playmaker role.

While by no means a major issue, I argue that compared to the above, simply having a '(don't) be the designated playmaker' button or something of the sort in the player instructions screen would be a much more elegant solution

You seem to be suggesting that by setting a player with the "playmaker" box, this opened up another level of tweaking? But that was never the case, ticking the play maker box ment your team would give that player the ball more, setting the role to advanced, or deep lying playmaker changed the way the player played, and which spaces they occupied. Nothing has really changed here, except you cannot set a central midfielder as the playmaker, you have to set his role to a playmaker, you can then edit his instructions to make him more of a central mid if you wish too.

[TOUGHGUY]

I... I don't... is what I'm saying really that confusing or unclear? "I want the box back" is what I am saying, basically. Except with making allowances for ideas such as multiple playmakers or integrating it into the streamlined player instruction system. What has changed is that right now, every playmaker role "has the box ticked". Players give their teammates with particular roles the ball more. I feel as if having these roles available without this could be not only useful but also perhaps even realistic. Additionaly, while attempts can be made at replicating this role using other means, they are clumsy or limiting. Whereas "having the box back" would be simple. I don't know how else to put it.

[dafuge]

Depends on who your strikers are, I guess. How are you looking to set up the two strikers using the old slider system?

To me, ask the supporting players to try riskier passes, although wwfan said players might be hardcoded to try that already if the player is a poacher. I haven't used a poacher yet, so I'm not sure.

On FM13 I used a poacher and a trequartista, with the team instructed to pick out the poacher with balls he can run on to. The poacher would score a lot of goals with the trequartista assisting and scoring in roughly equal measures.

I tried it on FM14, but just couldn't get the poacher on the ball enough so I switched to a single striker.

[HUNT3R]

On FM13 I used a poacher and a trequartista, with the team instructed to pick out the poacher with balls he can run on to. The poacher would score a lot of goals with the trequartista assisting and scoring in roughly equal measures.

I tried it on FM14, but just couldn't get the poacher on the ball enough so I switched to a single striker.

Hopefully someone from SI or wwfan could advise you here. I was just trying to speculate as to how we can emulate the old instructions. I would have assumed you leave the Treq as is and give your more attacking midfielders the instructions for more risky passes.

[Da_Funk]

On FM13 I used a poacher and a trequartista, with the team instructed to pick out the poacher with balls he can run on to. The poacher would score a lot of goals with the trequartista assisting and scoring in roughly equal measures.

I tried it on FM14, but just couldn't get the poacher on the ball enough so I switched to a single striker.

I made some questions today to clear something. I think I can help you.

You need to take your striker, put him as Target Man and instruct your team to "ball into space".

Poacher doesn't automatically make him Target Man, nor pass him with "run onto".

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/365454-Target-Man-Supply

[dafuge]

The problem with that is that a 'target man' comes with 'hold up ball' locked into his instructions, which is the opposite of what I would want a targeted poacher to do.

[Da_Funk]

I don't know if it's an issue of the rigidity of the system but according to what I know that's the only way to implement what you want.

Which is exactly what I asked in the thread I linked, right?

[dafuge]

Oh yes, what you linked was definitely helpful, it just didn't give me the answer I was hoping for!

I've got it working with a single striker but I really struggled playing two up front.

[HUNT3R]

Oh yes, what you linked was definitely helpful, it just didn't give me the answer I was hoping for!

I've got it working with a single striker but I really struggled playing two up front.

Leaving the Trequartista is still pretty much what you want, isn't it? Since it is a playmaker role, the team should actively be looking to supply him with the ball to his feet. Then it is a matter of him and the immediate attacking players around him to have risky passes as an instruction so that they can feed the poacher. That's my opinion anyway. Not sure if it will actually work, but it's how I'd do it.

[RocheBag]

It's literally the most simple thing in the world. Give him a role other than playmaker, and instruct him to play riskier passes, more direct passes, get forward more, whatever you want. How is this confusing?

[dafuge]

I did try to get the pairing working in the way I did on FM13, but the trequartista became my main goal threat!

In the end it was just easier to change my formation to have a single striker.

[Nhecks_99]

removed post

[Tournesol]

Sorry about skipping most of the thread, but I saw wwfan defend a change that I personally consider extremely detrimental to the tactical options of the game and then someone that I otherwise agree with get nasty towards him rather than just calmly discuss the issue itself and I figured by the following comments that I'd have to suffer through tons of "one camp against the other" comments that don't help anyone if I had continued reading.

That being said: I want my Liverpool team to focus on Gerrard distributing most of the attacking passes and Suarez and Sturridge getting most of those, regardless of other tactics, but as it is now, that's just not possible. And that is not just extremely inconvenient to me, it's NOT at all realistic! Show me a real team that models it's overall tactics on supplying the best few players and I'll show you a team that's either extremely lacking in good players, hindering itself with poor tactics or both!

And in case you think it's only theoretical rather than directly related to game mechanics: I'm currently playing a 4-3-2-1 system (Sturridge got injured) with Gerrard as Advanced Playmaker and Suarez as the sole attacker, set as a false 9, and neither get the ball anywhere near as much as their ability and importance to the team should warrant!

In earlier games, I'd been able to make both the vital points of the teams they really are, but now, I can't increase emphasis on either at all without changing my tactics in general

[Auqakuh]

I want my Liverpool team to focus on Gerrard distributing most of the attacking passes and Suarez and Sturridge getting most of those, regardless of other tactics, but as it is now, that's just not possible. <snip> Show me a real team that models it's overall tactics on supplying the best few players and I'll show you a team that's either extremely lacking in good players, hindering itself with poor tactics or both!

Well, you kind of argued yourself out of a point there. What you said is that you want to model your overall tactics on supplying your few best players - so, clearly, your second sentence applies.

And in case you think it's only theoretical rather than directly related to game mechanics: I'm currently playing a 4-3-2-1 system (Sturridge got injured) with Gerrard as Advanced Playmaker and Suarez as the sole attacker, set as a false 9, and neither get the ball anywhere near as much as their ability and importance to the team should warrant!l

If they're not getting the ball enough, then your tactics are wrong. Change them to ensure that they get on the ball more often.

[Tournesol]

No, that's just my point: I want my overall tactics to be sound for the whole team with extra emphasis on a couple star players, not to model my overall tactics on those few players. This is what every great team does in real life and what I used to be able to do in FM..

You don't think Barcelona puts extra emphasis on Messi, Xavi and Iniesta? You don't think Real Madrid puts extra emphasis on Ronaldo?

Name ONE overall great team in history that didn't have a sound overall tactic and still placed extra emphasis on the biggest stars

[xavilin]

IMO this change is easy to understand: it makes developers life easier (as they reduce tactic flexibility A LOT, so match outputs are way more easier to calculate) and gives access to all those managers that were mere line-up makers (no tweaking at all) to tweaking tactics in a way they understand. players who used to make some tactical tweaking but only cared about winning in a somewhat recognizable way are happy too. old players (or new) who liked to touch each and every slider to adopt a certain style of play and not just something similar that wins, are the injured party. now we cannot see any longer players doing what we want (please could someone tell me how to instruct my CB to play like piqué IRL? I mean, running with the ball often and making off the ball short runs to give a passing option to his defense mate, while sometimes playing through balls but never crossing. or could anyone tell me how to instruct my trequartista striker to press like a mad dog while the rest of the team goes deep? or how to instruct a FB to move into channels just like dani alves does?). i feel stupid when i imagine myself telling a player: "do more risky passes"."more than what?"."more than you're doing now"."hmmm... boss, i just signed for the team, we're in preseason, i haven't played a single game... i repeat, more than what???". it all sounds ridiculous. managers go and tell their players "when you see a really clear chance, give a through pass, otherwise pass it short".or "play easy, do not try to give always a winning pass". or my favorite "play a couple of meters deeper, closer to your CB. you must stay at most at X meters from him" (no mentality tweaking?????????), or "balls to messi to his feet". and all of this was possible with sliders and boxes. now it is possible sometimes and sometimes it isn't, but limited players are happy and the game costs a lot less to produce. SI have bent their knees down to Sega's commercial pressure.

[Ackter]

I stopped using the tick boxes when the tactics creator was first introduced as I felt the roles made them more or less obsolete.

This version it's made them completely obsolete imo.

[Ackter]

IMO this change is easy to understand: it makes developers life easier (as they reduce tactic flexibility A LOT, so match outputs are way more easier to calculate) and gives access to all those managers that were mere line-up makers (no tweaking at all) to tweaking tactics in a way they understand. players who used to make some tactical tweaking but only cared about winning in a somewhat recognizable way are happy too. old players (or new) who liked to touch each and every slider to adopt a certain style of play and not just something similar that wins, are the injured party. now we cannot see any longer players doing what we want (please could someone tell me how to instruct my CB to play like piqué IRL? I mean, running with the ball often and making off the ball short runs to give a passing option to his defense mate, while sometimes playing through balls but never crossing. or could anyone tell me how to instruct my trequartista striker to press like a mad dog while the rest of the team goes deep? or how to instruct a FB to move into channels just like dani alves does?). i feel stupid when i imagine myself telling a player: "do more risky passes"."more than what?"."more than you're doing now"."hmmm... boss, i just signed for the team, we're in preseason, i haven't played a single game... i repeat, more than what???". it all sounds ridiculous. managers go and tell their players "when you see a really clear chance, give a through pass, otherwise pass it short".or "play easy, do not try to give always a winning pass". or my favorite "play a couple of meters deeper, closer to your CB. you must stay at most at X meters from him" (no mentality tweaking?????????), or "balls to messi to his feet". and all of this was possible with sliders and boxes. now it is possible sometimes and sometimes it isn't, but limited players are happy and the game costs a lot less to produce. SI have bent their knees down to Sega's commercial pressure.

"Hey FB, I want you to play 4 pressing today"

"Err, 4 pressing? Huh?"

Best place to ask about your roles is in the Tactics forum.

[lonestar190]

"Hey FB, I want you to play 4 pressing today"

"Err, 4 pressing? Huh?"

Best place to ask about your roles is in the Tactics forum.

"Hey FB, I want you to focus down left side with direct passing, dribble less, play defensive"

"Ummm, okay, why?"

"I want the AML to have the ball as much as possible."

"Why didn't you just say that then?"

Really a step backwards to remove the instruction. Each iteration seems to have fewer and fewer tactical options leaving a better looking, but much more limited, matchday experience.

[Ackter]

That doesn't even make sense.

In my experience, those people having trouble with the transition from sliders to this new system are those who'd learned how to use them without actually understanding what they did or how they interacted with each other. I'd even go as far as to suggest that they weren't really understanding what they were seeing either, considering its links with the instructions.

There's no loss of instruction, just a perceived loss from people struggling to get to grips with things.

Anyway, this thread is more than done. If you have questions regarding tactical options etc then the Tactics forum is the place to go.