Is Rinus Micehels 1970's Ajax system possible with a lower league club?

[Lord Dakier]

Why I came opened this thread...

So I'm trying to establish a system based on Ajax in the European Cup. Now in FM12 I could take Conference team to the Premier League consecutively. I'm not sure what happened, but once FM13 came out I couldn't do nothing near that except achieve mid-table safety. Maybe I exploited previous FM's without knowing it or maybe I became lazy, it doesn't matter. I never have enjoyed the game where it's easiest in the top leagues and I'm confident I too could create a 'wonder' tactic with Barcelona. Almost anyone should be able to. Here I''m going to be reborn in the art of FM using Port Vale a club which is far bigger than the English League One but has fallen under difficult times. They have the controversial legend of my beloved West Bromwich Albion Lee Hughes who's seriously taking a large chunk of our budget who we will look at if we can utilise or not. In truth we're going to go fully draconian and turn this club around to reshape it into a far better side.

What we're going to discuss and learn...

We're going to let loose the dogs of managing warfare and hopefully clear up the 'theories' and the fact of what certain things do. We're going to go into deep tactical analysis or at least try to and learn where we're going wrong. While doing this we're also going to be patient and not restart the game after every loss cause that would be cheating. So to do this I'm going to break the plan down into multiple step by step phases which we may revisit to change.

1. The tactical formation

Now in all honesty before a couple of weeks I didn't even know who Rinus Michels was and had the wrong interpretation of Total Football. I saw Total Football like many wrongly do now as in what FC Barcelona play. Now I'm not going into detail on the mix up between Guardiola and Michels and their styles so let's just say Barcelona is closer to Total Passing rather than Total Football. The tactic we plan on using will be 2-2-3-2-1. This may change as we progress due to being a lower league side we may need to influence our less football minded players to do things through the tactical plan. So on with some pictures already of how we're going to look to set up the tactic. I will be taking serious criticism on the tactic and suggestions.

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2. The phases of play.

The one thing every manager has to consider in FM and I certainly didn't do this after FM12 because I didn't need it was how we would try to influence shape in different phases of play. Again I expect lots of suggestions and criticism on this. We'll be sticking with the two most basic phases of play; Possession of the ball and no possession of the ball. On the ball we want our formation to be like a bottle of water thats been tipped over. The pitch needs to become wider as we press forward. We're going to stretch the opposition defence to a point where a player has enough space for a cheeky run! On the defence we're going to become an impregnable fortress where the opposition can''t sit comfortably while they decide to where best to exploit us. To do this we need to develop two sub formations if you will where our players will take up different positions.

Now we see the positions ideally the players should be looking to move to in both phases of play. Firstly lets discuss the defensive being that we're going to be in that situation an awful lot as you can see with have the zones players should be taking themselves to marking. Now what we want try and create is a fierece defensive force in the orange area. The opposition we don't want to even reach the read area. The yellow is ideally where we want to win the ball back so we can transition quickly into our attacking positions.

Now in these attacking positions we take we have our defence which isn't static but isn't going to push too far forward as we are still a League One side and not a Champions League side. Now the orange zones we want to look at supporting our attacking force and if in real need to maintain the possession swap position with them while they rotate into the vacant position. The red zones is where want to be bringing the ball down to our feet or just further in on our heads. We want to slip through those key areas to fire the ball into the net. The one thing about our attacking scenarios we want to employ is that beautiful triangle of passing, whether it be forward or backward passing.

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3. Training

This is where we need the help the most. We have very few weeks to make a tactic competent to a squad that are so English they get the ball to their feet and launch it in the air for someone to header because that's how they've been told. No longer. Now we need to get the boys playing organised on the defence and moving much more on the attack. Since the training system and match preparation system was added in all honesty I ignored it completely as I never understood it from the get go. Now enough of the laziness we need to fully understand how this system works when the squad doesn't know what on earth its trying to do.

4. Players...

Daniel Defoe once said "It is better to have a lion at the head of an army of sheep, than a sheep at the head of an army of lions". This is certainly true in managing terms, but take it with a pinch of salt because we're going to need some pretty damn good sheep if we're to play against all these lions. So we also need to discuss the players we want to be bring in. Now considering we have no money to spend and plenty of players we can release it means the Bosman just became our best friend.

5. Staff...

Not so important right now I don't think, but we certainly could do with another scout to help our player search.

So as earlier stated the 5 things we need to initially discuss before we get underway are those points. Of course I'm open to other ideas and suggestions such as getting an affiliate club also so let's get all these points discussed and the others.

1. Formation

2. Phases of play

3. Training

4. Players

5. Staff

Thank you for reading and taking part in my tactical endeavour...

EDIT - I will be properly starting this once the game is released 31.10.13

[Cleon]

This is now my new favourite thread on the forum and I'll be following this very close. I like when people try and implement ideas like this in the lower leagues because there is a massive misconception around these parts that stuff like this cannot work at lower level and you need to keep it basic. That's not true at all and stuff like this can work, I took Sheffield FC from the Evo-Stik leagues all the way to Champions League glory using the W-M.

While playing basic at lower levels is easier it doesn't mean the complicated styles/systems won't work. It's all a case of how much effort the user is willing to put into it. Especially when it comes to choosing the players to play this kind of system.

If you want to get the squad all fluid in the tactic the best you can before the first game of the season then this thread I did might be of a massive help to you;

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/348337-Approaching-Pre-Season-My-take-On-It

[Fabian Jonsson]

Great stuff mate, and I agree that people have preconceptions about lower league management that probably do more harm than good.

One thing that strikes me is that you have the most advanced, attacking, midfielder in the centre of the central trio. I've used that before, and it's always given me grief. When the opposition has the ball on one flank, the MC closest to that flank will most likely move out to help defend there, and with your MCc taking a rather casual approach to defending (assuming you have a rather attacking player there), that risks leaving a huge space in front of the DCs.

I'm not saying it won't work, but I think it's something you need to be wary of.

I realize, though, that having one of the outer MCs as the most attacking might mean that he runs into the space the IF on that side is supposed to attack, but that could probably be solved by pushing that IF higher or wider, for example.

[kazm]

Didn't Ajax use wingers instead of IF-s? Also didn't their backs just start of just at the fullback position and didn't they use Cruijff as a AP-a or maybe a on the AMC spot?

[Lord Dakier]

Thanks for reading all.

Fabian, what I am trying to achieve is one aggressive MC will close while the other two can get back into formation. Do you think 3 BWM's would be more what I am looking for?

Kazm, In all honesty I'm not 100% sure how the positions were to be exactly, but I will certainly take on suggestions. I also need ro conclude that the tactic itself is 40 years old and being played using Port Vale. This isn't going to be a perfect simulation of Ajax, but surely we can make it very similar. The full backs overlapped a lot from what I see, which makes me question what we can do to improve those wingers. The original tactic based the whole game on one player, I don't necessarily want to include that at Port Vale in League One.

[Cleon]

Thanks for reading all.

Fabian, what I am trying to achieve is one aggressive MC will close while the other two can get back into formation. Do you think 3 BWM's would be more what I am looking for?

Kazm, In all honesty I'm not 100% sure how the positions were to be exactly, but I will certainly take on suggestions. I also need ro conclude that the tactic itself is 40 years old and being played using Port Vale. This isn't going to be a perfect simulation of Ajax, but surely we can make it very similar. The full backs overlapped a lot from what I see, which makes me question what we can do to improve those wingers. The original tactic based the whole game on one player, I don't necessarily want to include that at Port Vale in League One.

The actual positions would be;

Depending on how you interpret it. The thing with total football is its hard to replicate regardless of who you are and is something I don't think we will ever see again in football.

So with that in mind the OP is probably right with how he wants to set up using Vale and the roles he chooses will be key to how the tactic works and not the initial shape on the pitch. The roles and duties will decide what the shape is once the game has kicked off.

[Sanford&Son]

Ditto ... I am now subscribed to this thread and ready for reading, bring it on!

[poobington]

Subscribed to this thread, will be very interested to see how you progress! As far as team and player instructions are concerned, have you made any that stand out so far. I would be interested in embarking on a similar journey myself.

[Lord Dakier]

See right there I see 2 different formations the second being more defensive.

Let's look at picture 1 from Cleon. We see Blankenburg take up a sweeping role which I think a lot already knew. Personally I don't think we need a sweeper but a CB set to cover. Now the wing play we see the wing backs push forward and the wingers come inside, now how do we implement this? Personally I think we should be trying to get our wingers to come inside once the wing backs have come into their supporting role. For me the biggest issue is the midfield. How do we get the press/cover system working correctly. The one thing both total football and tiki-taka don't deal with so well is a counter-attack. Players need to be able to retreat in a quick fashion. I have some basic ideas for team/player instructions, but what do you all suggest?

@Poobington: I've messed about with the tactic several times in the beta so far and I've had good results and shockingly horrendous results. In all honesty the system I want to play I don't know if it can be done at this level even after several alterations. What I do know is I'm not good enough myself to make it work at this level so I though opening a thread like this would be the best way forward to see where I'm going wrong.

[kazm]

To add: i think Neeskens could be a bwm, or bbm. He was known for being very hard, working hard, having a good long shot, but also scoring from the box now and then. I think the Muhren role was that of an AP or DLP-s.

I am pretty sure the wingers where actual FM wingers but definately they were more than just pace.

Then again total football means fluidity so you might not want a lot of specialised roles.

(also: 1974 Dutch squad is even more awesome with van Hanegem, Wim Janssen, Rinus Israels and Theo Laseroms from Feyenoord to add some more brutality)

[Lord Dakier]

I am pretty sure the wingers where actual FM wingers but definately they were more than just pace.

I understand the full backs made quite a lot of crosses though also. To really get that overlapping into the game I'm not sure we can have forwarding running full backs with wingers can we? I'm not sure how it would really pair up cause they'd both sort of be making the same run wouldn't they?

[poobington]

I understand the full backs made quite a lot of crosses though also. To really get that overlapping into the game I'm not sure we can have forwarding running full backs with wingers can we? I'm not sure how it would really pair up cause they'd both sort of be making the same run wouldn't they?

You could have Attacking wingers, but set to roam.

Going back to the role of your striker, would you consider using a roaming false 9? that way he would drop back, dragging the opposition CBs out of position and creating space for the wingers, to roam into. Additionally it would give the cms spoace to run into and beyond. With him set to more roaming, perhaps he would be more than just a wall striker but mimic Cruyff

[Lord Dakier]

You could have Attacking wingers, but set to roam.

Going back to the role of your striker, would you consider using a roaming false 9? that way he would drop back, dragging the opposition CBs out of position and creating space for the wingers, to roam into. Additionally it would give the cms spoace to run into and beyond. With him set to more roaming, perhaps he would be more than just a wall striker but mimic Cruyff

I'm not sure what that would really achieve with the wingers, but I can certainly give it a try.

As for the false nine I certainly was going to go with it, but wanted to a bit more understanding on the subject. Have people managed to use them successfully on their own yet? I know with what I've tested from this formation the Advanced Forward can be an out and out wrecking machine when I had Junior Agogo and Emile Mpenza in those positions

[poobington]

I'm not sure what that would really achieve with the wingers, but I can certainly give it a try.

As for the false nine I certainly was going to go with it, but wanted to a bit more understanding on the subject. Have people managed to use them successfully on their own yet? I know with what I've tested from this formation the Advanced Forward can be an out and out wrecking machine when I had Junior Agogo and Emile Mpenza in those positions

With regards to the wingers my theory, and it is still just that, would be that their primary role would be attacking wingers who spread the play, but with the instruction to roam giving them the freedom to drift infield creating space for the fullbacks to surge into. With the false nine also drifting and dragging the opposition cbs out of position there would be exploitable space for those roaming wingers. I'm on my phone but I will try to demonstrate it on a diagrammatic, and also try to put it into practice

[Chef Raekwon]

To add: i think Neeskens could be a bwm, or bbm. He was known for being very hard, working hard, having a good long shot, but also scoring from the box now and then. I think the Muhren role was that of an AP or DLP-s.

I am pretty sure the wingers where actual FM wingers but definately they were more than just pace.

Then again total football means fluidity so you might not want a lot of specialised roles.

(also: 1974 Dutch squad is even more awesome with van Hanegem, Wim Janssen, Rinus Israels and Theo Laseroms from Feyenoord to add some more brutality)

This is spot on. If you want to replicate the Total Football style played by Ajax and the Netherlands, you should be aware of the following:

* Wide play was crucial to the '70s Dutch teams, but in a different way as compared to today. Nowadays, teams often use IF's instead of wingers and have their backs have overlapping runs. Ajax had two 'complete wingers', in the sense that they combined the roles of winger and inside foward. These players were expected to be able to beat their man, from the inside as well as the outside. Keizer and Swart were able to give outstanding crosses when hugging the touchline, but also beating their man when cutting inside. At the same time, you had wing backs pushing high up the pitch, but instead of the ever present overlapping runs you see today, these players could provide both width and cut inside. I don't think this type of fluidity is possible in FM, but should you succeed, this would make a great accomplishment. Players such as Krol (one of my all-time favorite players) had great pace and intelligence, which meant that they could still track back offensive units of the opposition.

* Cruyff was the most advanced central player of the team, but I still find his role hard to define. In my own formations, I use a complete forward, but his role could easily be defined as a false nine or DLF. Theoretically, you could also start this player as an AMC, but I don't think this would be right.

* Neeskens and Mühren formed the pair of central midfielders. Contrary to popular belief, Neeskens was more then just a breaker or a runner, although he, of course, excelled at doing just that. He also possessed enough technique to be able to contribute to attacks. Cruyff has specifically named Neeskens as a player deserving of more praise for this exact reason. I do suggest playing the 'Neeskens-role' as a BBM. In my opinion, Mühren was a DLP. Never played the really advanced positions, but directed play from deeper in the midfield.

These are just my two cents and musings. I sadly am too young to have seen this team live in action, but you can find many full games of these teams on Youtube. This is basically what I have surmised of these detached viewings.

[kazm]

Yeah, agree about Neeskens. Pretty much their whole team was at least decent regarding technique and passing. So if you ever want to make a tactic like this with infinite money I suggest ball playing defenders, a DMC like Busquets who is great defensively/physically but is also good enough technically to be a dlp or ap in a worse team. Pretty much EVERY player has to be a complete player and except for the DC's players with lower than 14 technique won't do.

If this is possible at LLM I don't know, it really asks a lot of the players. Also with all due respect these players were ofcourse very talented but still the football they played was a lot slower then it is today. This tactic might be harder to create in the fast contemporary meta.

(extra points for using the word meta )

[kazm]

I understand the full backs made quite a lot of crosses though also. To really get that overlapping into the game I'm not sure we can have forwarding running full backs with wingers can we? I'm not sure how it would really pair up cause they'd both sort of be making the same run wouldn't they?

Dunno. They have no length at all.

Cruijff: 1m80

Neeskens: 1m78

Muhren: 1m78 and not really making runs into the box if Raekwon is right which I believe is true

Keizer: unknown but I think 1m80 or smaller

Swart: 1m75

Haan: 1m83

I think they did the same thing both wingers did: keep the pitch wide if needed, cut inside if needed: if the RW stays deep the RB has the chance to make a run inside withor without ball and vice versa. I expect to barely see floated crosses, and if you see these crosses more likely to the winger far post than to Cruijff. (Just guessing, afaik Neeskens also scored some headed goals)

[Lord Dakier]

Ok taking all the current advice on board here is what I come up with.

The hope here is that wing backs will only push up to just behind where the wingers are stationed unless they're out of possession and hopefully they'll take a crossing opportunity. Our main man or Cruyff when he was played as the striker is now also a False Nine. I honestly don't know how that will work for him as now he will be on support. The midfield we have a MCL-Muhren if you will linking the play and rarely venturing too far ahead. Our MCR workhorse that is Neeskens as a BBM as wanted and our most central striker switched to a supporting role so he will look to cover while an MCL or MCR presses.

Things still to discuss...

1. The defenders. I know we want a BPD, however this is League One we're talking about in all honesty the best I think we can get is setting the instruction play out of defence. Any suggestions?

2. The keeper. From what I have seen Stuy just seemed like a regular defensive keeper, does anyone know if he ventured forth himself a few times?

3. Tempo. Now I know football back then was much slower so I see two options we take into account that Football has changed and adjust or we don't. Suggestions please?

EDIT 4. Before I forget. Wings backs or full backs. Suggestions also

Once we have them sorted I think we can move onto team and player instructions ideally.

[Chef Raekwon]

I think your midfield three are too static. Three in a support role, not sure if this could replicate the dynamic midfield. Also, your shape leaves your defense exposed. If I remember correctly, the Ajax team also employed a '6', a player who linked the defense to the midfield. Able to break offenses quickly and able to participate in build up play.

[Cleon]

I think your midfield three are too static. Three in a support role, not sure if this could replicate the dynamic midfield. Also, your shape leaves your defense exposed. If I remember correctly, the Ajax team also employed a '6', a player who linked the defense to the midfield. Able to break offenses quickly and able to participate in build up play.

The defender did the linking, they used a defender to bring the ball forward rather than a midfielder.

[Lord Dakier]

The defender did the linking, they used a defender to bring the ball forward rather than a midfielder.

Chef Raekwon, what would you recommend changing?

Well I guess we better find ourselves a defender who can pass in League One, if it's possible lol.

Cleon your thread on pre-season. How am I going to managed to get this tactic drilled into these lot? Just try and go for 10 friendlies and set match prep to tactics only?

[kazm]

How about:

WB-a....... DC-d..........DC-d.......WB-s

.....BBM-s....MC-d......DLp-s.............

....W-a................................W-s...

..................TQ.........................

Attacking winger on the DLP-s side seems like a bad idea because of the gap between the dlp and the winger.

edit: Keeper should be a sweeper keeper btw. (or was that later?)

[Lord Dakier]

Kazm I think it looks beautiful!

honestly I think we need to be using LB/RB over WBL/WBR... the space between the two wingbacks and defence makes me want to cry in defensive situations. As for the midfield won't the DLP-S drop back slightly anyhow with the MC-D next to him won't that make our midfield a bit too hesitant to push forward?

Sweeper keeper I'll throw in too, don't see the harm in not having one in all honesty especially when playing quite a high line like this formation may end up doing.

[poobington]

I can confirm that a MCd is good at linking the play, almost acting like a half back. I found using an actual half back left the player more part of a back 3 rather than contributing to the build up

[Lord Dakier]

I can confirm that a MCd is good at linking the play, almost acting like a half back. I found using an actual half back left the player more part of a back 3 rather than contributing to the build up

Ok so we're happy with the midfield then? In all honesty I'm still a little worried about the area in front of the midfield but we'll see what we can do later on I guess.

I think the half-back was SI's answer to people who wanted Busquet to drop between the defence like he often did.

MENTALITY: CONTROL - FLUIDITY: VERY FLUID

These are what I have selected so far. Please feel free to agree and disagree with any of these.

As for player instructions we have;

GK: Pass it short, distribute to BPD

LB/RB: Close down more, stay wide

AMR/AML: Roam from position

BBM: Get further forward

Also please feel free to agree and disagree with them.

[poobington]

Ok so we're happy with the midfield then? In all honesty I'm still a little worried about the area in front of the midfield but we'll see what we can do later on I guess.

I think the half-back was SI's answer to people who wanted Busquet to drop between the defence like he often did.

MENTALITY: CONTROL - FLUIDITY: VERY FLUID

These are what I have selected so far. Please feel free to agree and disagree with any of these.

As for player instructions we have;

GK: Pass it short, distribute to BPD

LB/RB: Close down more, stay wide

AMR/AML: Roam from position

BBM: Get further forward

Also please feel free to agree and disagree with them.

Due to issues with the ME, the half back seems to cause the CBs to split far too wide, but that is an aside.

I would say that both of the mcs flanking the cmd should be BBMs in order to address the space ahead of the midfield line whilst not neglecting their defensive duties.

Also I would agree with all your team instructions except shorter passing. The actual placement of the players on the pitch lends itself nicely to shorter passing, but the Dutch team of the 70s did not rely on short passing alone, but could mix it up if need be.

[Lord Dakier]

Ok if we're going to set to wider CM's to BBM then how about the wingrs? Are we keeping them in an attacking role or giving them a supporting one?

EDIT - I will also remove short passing. Should there be any changes to player instructions does anyone feel?

[poobington]

still attacking. On support they may be to static and get in the way of the cms. You want the wingers to roam, providing space for the full backs, but have the mentality to run beyond the line of defence

[Lord Dakier]

still attacking. On support they may be to static and get in the way of the cms. You want the wingers to roam, providing space for the full backs, but have the mentality to run beyond the line of defence

Alrighty then. Any other instructions or shall we see how we firstly get on?

In terms of how we'll start the game. The database will be very large so we'll be loading 80,000+ players. At Port Vale itself we'll be going draconian and in a desperate bid to strengthen our wage budget and spending power be offloading all the deadwood and believe me it's almost like we chopped down the Amazon rainforest and let the wood rot.

[Lord Dakier]

Day One On The Job... The managing job that is.

We have plenty of screens telling us how bad our team is, oh goody! The one that hurts me the most is the board asking for a mid-table finish. That's one tough ask Mr Norman Smurthwaite!

On with the screens, let's have a look just how dire our situation is.

Sorry if these screenshots aren't the easiest to view, all you need to know is that in all honesty we suck. So what do we know? Well we have two quite capable MC's in Lines and Birchall, but we're going to need at least one more. Our main striker is English and a traditionalist Englishman who believes your a good football if your physically superior... oh dear god, what have I done here. He's going to go for sure as well as controversial Lee Hughes who on so much money I wonder if him and chairman are somehow related. We have a half decent CB too who can't pass to save his life, I guess we can find a space for him on our subs bench if we can find better replacements. Well with that over and done with we pretty much have to revamp the entire squad. Luckily it's 25th June so we have a good month to do it because I loaded the Germany start date instead.

[iMan]

The key thing about Total Football was only the keeper had a fixed position. They would constantly take up each other's positions through out the game.

It's impossible to get that level of fluidity in FM so you can't replicate it as thats what the system was all about.

[Lord Dakier]

The key thing about Total Football was only the keeper had a fixed position. They would constantly take up each other's positions through out the game.

It's impossible to get that level of fluidity in FM so you can't replicate it as thats what the system was all about.

iMan, although I agree we cannot replicate the tactic exactly, if I was trying to clone it I'd be using a team like Man City or Dortmund rather Port Vale lol. I only want to use a similar system and I've never had an extremely fluid tactic before so I'm addressing multiple things with one thread.

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So to end the day we've played our first friendly against our dearest reserves who are pretty much all non-contract players due to offloading and getting some wage back in the kitty. Here is the stats from the game.

This could all be better layed out and I'll try and do it for future versions.

Anyhow as we can see I've highlighted some of our problems during the game. Take them with a pinch of salt we was versing a side full of players who look live they've never kicked a ball. The one panel tells me we cannot complete long passes to save our lives however during the game we had much success from several long passes played. The fact the action zone shows they was in our area more than we was I'm surprised because honestly I expected our build up to be a little slower. It may be a change I make in all honesty setting tempo to medium as I think it aided in many rushed long balls, but we'll see how we get on in the next few friendlies I guess. Possession I expected to dominate by more to be honest although I understand why we didn't as against a similar skilled team we may get some better handle on it however in this game I don't think holding the ball was a priority.

Now I was gonna keep it a surprise but re-editing the pictures was a real 'cba' moment by myself so as you may of noticed WE WON 5-0!!! - Ok celebrations over. In truth this was never going to be a hard game and I'm not disappointed, but not overly happy. We did everything as expected... well maybe the clean sheet went down nicely and the shot they had on target was quite a lucky counter-attack.

Tomorrows exercise we'll be looking at bringing in some new players. I have two key transfer targets already lined up from playing the beta.

Please if you haven't already join the discussion. New to FM, veteran of FM, in need of help or plenty to offer there's certainly something that you can add to the thread!

Thank you for reading Day One of our little experience,

Lord D.

[jakem016]

Great thread so far. I'm currently playing with Liverpool and I've been trying to create a similar tactic. So far, I'm doing exceptionally well (1st place and 20 pts through 8), but I have to admit that my results haven't been entirely convincing and include a number of last-minute heroics in games that we should have dominated (coming back from 2-1 after 80 minutes, at home, against last place Sunderland, for example) and I've been tinkering with my tactics. Also, I've been very reactive and tried to channel my inner poverty-stricken Bielsa by stubbornly insisting on a +1 at the back (I've played a 4-3-3 with a dm, 3-5-2 with wbs and an am, and a 3-6-1 with wbs and attacking mid wingers), but I've also tried to stick to a total football/tiki-taka philosophy throughout.

I bring all this up because in my last match I made some adjustments based on this thread (I tried 2 support wbs, 2 bbms, 2 att wingers and a false 9 that I eventually switched to a treq and then a cf-s because my false 9 insists on only taking long shots no matter what I do) and it worked well. Granted, I was playing an injury-stricken and struggling Southampton on the road who played a 4-2-3-1 with 3 narrow ams (played narrow and exploited flanks which is advantageous for 2 classic wingers), but I have a couple of suggestions. I eventually changed my wingers to IF-a and then asked them to roam from position and stay wide. I can't claim to have watched much of Cruyff's Ajax teams, but I think (please correct me if I'm wrong) that they stayed wide in order to spread out the defense and then cut inside (in other words, they weren't classic wingers). Also, am I correct to assume that they didn't try to run to the byline to cross the ball? Anyway, despite asking them the retain possession, that's what my wingers did. Once I changed them to Ifs, this problem disappeared and my wingers did an excellent job of staying wide during the buildup and then cutting inside when in possession (with the added benefit of not driving to the byline and trying to cross to Coutinho as soon as they receive the ball).

I also found that my wingers didn't even try to track back and Southampton's fbs had loads of space until I manually instructed my wingers to tight mark their fbs. This, unfortunately, resulted Southampton keeping possession deep in their zone and dominating possession. I didn't mind too much because by that time, I had a 2-0 lead and they weren't creating anything dangerous. However, this does go against the spirit of the tactic. If you want your wingers to defend fluidly and maintain width, would it maybe be better to play defensive wingers and attacking wbs and then instructing them to overlap? I'm not too sure if this is how the Ajax teams played, but it seem to fit in with how I imagine them playing. I'm not sure how this would work with your tactic, but it might help increase your defensive fluidity. Also, I think (again correct me if I'm wrong) that the retain possession instruction decreases the tendency of support players crossing the ball, but doesn't effect the tendency of attacking players. I know that the sliders are gone, but I suspect that the game still uses hidden sliders that we can't manually adjust. Basically, it seems that players' behavior is still based on the same sliders, but the only way to adjust them are through team/individual instructions (the same as shouts).

[poobington]

Ok this is currently how I've been testing with Watford.

.....................SK-d.........................

........... DC-c..........BPD-d................

CWB-a.............................. CWB-a

.....BWM-s....MC-d......?.............

....W-a................................W-a...

......................F9.........................

Very Fluid.......Standard

Team Instructions:

Play Out of Defence

Hassle Opponents

Roam from Position

More Expressive

Stay on feet

Much higher Defensive Line

Use Offside trap

The last two may be strange and quite risky, but the reasons are two fold. The Dutch team of the 70s were one of the first to employ the use of such a high line effectively pioneering the offside trap. My theory is that by pushing so high up and minimizing the space between the banks of players, natural simple passing opportunities will present themselves.

Player Instructions:

All Players: Shoot less

CD-d: shorter passing

CM-d: Shorter passing, fewer risky passes

BWM-s: more direct passes

W-a x2: more roaming

F9: More roaming

I'm still undecided with one of the cm slots, hence the ?

In pre season i rotated between a cm-s, cm-a a bbm and a bwm. I found that it really depended on the kind of player i had there. In some scenarios the cm-a would often get forward, but due to the very fluid nature of the tactic players would often shuffle and fill in the gap, so often with the CWb filling the cm slot, the W-a dropping into the Wb position and the cm-a furtherup field in the roaming winger position.

I won every one of my pre season friendlies pretty convincingly, often scoring at least 3 goals in the 1st half. This said the tactic is pretty intense, so the fitness levels of players would be diminished in the 2nd half. The best result was probably the 4-1 win against Bordeaux, if i can i will try to get some stats.

My question is what would you suggest for the ? slot in midfield?

[Lord Dakier]

Jakem, Changing to IF's is cerainly something I am considering, however I believe they struggle to get back to their defensive shape more than the wingers so currently I still want to see how the wingers do and may rotate once the tactic is fluid to test how well we do.

Poobington, I currently play 2 BBM's. I imagine my MCR a Neeskems with a very high work rate where as my MCL although currently BBM I may change it later if I don't find it convincing. Personally I'd try using a BBM too to try and get more support in the attack as you have to quite defensive roles I believe already in midfield. Please also keep me informed of how you do. Would certainly help if I knew what was working for you

[Chef Raekwon]

Some more of my musings, based on the feedback in this thread.

Meaning you play a formation without a defensive midfielder, this means at least one CB has to play high up the pitch. If you don't, any opposition worth something will easily exploit the gap between midfield and defense. I would suggest pushing up the entire defensive line as high as possible, and using the offside trap. The Dutch sides of the '70s were, I think, the first to use the offside trap. Also pressing when the ball is lost is important, alongside the shout 'hassle opposition'. If your forward players start pressing, the defenders don't know what to do with the ball, resulting in long kicks and long shots forward. Your high defensive line can then sweep this balls and start another attack.

I would play in the following formation:

Sweeper Keeper: support or even attack

Complete Wingback (2x): attack (perhaps full back; maybe Cleon and other real tactic buffs can provide some additional insight)

Ball Playing Defenders (2x): either cover + stopper, or 2x stopper if you really want to go crazy and have a SK with an attack duty.

MC DLP: support

MC BBM: support

MC BWM: defend

AMLR Winger (2x): attack

ST F9 or TQ: support

I have started an FM14 game with Ajax where I try to combine this total football system with a Barcelona style possession based game. I'm currently fielding this team:

Very fluent; control

Sweeper Keeper, support

Complete Wing Back (2x): attack

Ball Playing Defender (2x): cover & stopper

Half Back: support

MC DLP: support

MC AP: attack

AMLR IF: attack

ST CF: support

After a rocky start (few draws at the start of the competition), this is really working well for me. Even against teams with a higher stature and with better players. Only lost three games in 6 months, a 3-0 away at Feyenoord, a 1-0 away at CSKA Moscow and a 2-0 away at Porto.

[Lord Dakier]

Chef Raekwon, good work there mate. Seems as though the defensive line will be needing to push up my only worry is that in League One I'm not sure how the players will cope with an offside trap, but we'll see how we get on with it. I'm going to stick to using LB/RB positions because there is no WBL/WBR's in the market and to be honest I find wingbacks don't play that organised on the backfoot.

[Chef Raekwon]

Chef Raekwon, good work there mate. Seems as though the defensive line will be needing to push up my only worry is that in League One I'm not sure how the players will cope with an offside trap, but we'll see how we get on with it. I'm going to stick to using LB/RB positions because there is no WBL/WBR's in the market and to be honest I find wingbacks don't play that organised on the backfoot.

I think that's the correct thing to do. FYI, I use a DR and DL as well, only on wing back duty. Good luck continuing your experiment, keep us posted!

[Hellas2]

I'm really interested in seeing this pan out and will provide some thoughts when I get home to play tonight.

With the demo I mainly played variants of 3142, 31411 and 3412's but found I was too often squeezing too many players into the centre of the park despite having some relative success.

[Lord Dakier]

Chef Raekwon, oh right, and thank you. To be honest once/should I get to championship or premier then I may consider switching it up and getting myself 2 good wing backs but for the time being I could do with that bit better organisation.

Hellas, please do share the info. Well I think that's something this formation does. I see 4 players lining up on the edge of the box, for a control based strategy that's pretty attacking!

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As you can see in the imagine above, we've done ok overall. After the Stafford game I decided to let the AI take over friendlies for a while until I get to these games where I've stopped. Now we can look at how far our formation has come. Considering we've made so many signings, gelling is still going to be an issue. In all honesty I'm not sure about our chances, really I think I've done too much too soon I guess we'll have to see how we get on in any case. The tactic itself on the attack is quite possibly the best tactic I've ever made, in defence it's probably one of the worst. With the signing of Shane Cansdell-Sheriff I'm hoping to really get that BPD position working and think he was a great signing much needed. In midfield we managed to sign veteran 34 year-old Jody Morris, a player who in all honesty is no better than our current midfielders Chris Lines and Chris Birchall, but certainly what we needed. We've made two signings on the left-wing with Lee Cook and Salim Kerker, too decent players better than what we already had. Now for our Cruyff... Emile Mpenza. I've signed this veteran on the beta and he's a bit of a monster, I only plan to get a season or two out of him, but he's not let me down yet so hopefully he won't in this game. I signed Neil Etheridge the GK from Fulham and we've established an affiliation with them loaning Sean Kavanagh. I plan to try and grab some more cover in areas like the midfield and defence as that's where we're struggling to fill the gaps of fatigue and injury.

I'll be doing more deeper analysis of the upcoming games, I didn't honestly thing there was much point in doing it against teams we was expected to comfortably beat.

[Lord Dakier]

Port Vale vs Rocester

Friendly Match Report/Analysis

Scoring Chances

Firstly we look at the chances we should of put away. As you can see we're attacking in many different varied locations and doing a fairly good job of not just attacking from one position which the opposition could look to cover up. I've got nothing really specific to say about this except the obvious that we need to be putting them chances away especially so close to the goal.

Shots Made At Goal

Now in this one panel we see something which I always enjoy seeing. Goals from inside the box. This tells me that either we're the better team which in truth we was but also that we could get in between their defence and do what the tactic asks which is a multitude of different attacks inside the box. There's no real objective how to score we just want the player with the ball to pass to a player in a good position who will then maybe run a little closer and fire one in and that's what's been done here.

Misplaced And Out-of-Play Passes

It wouldn't be FM if there wasn't something to moan about and I guess there is. As the panel shows we're still not getting those long passes accurate enough. Now I'm not saying our long passing isn't working, we're often switching the ball up rather nicely but this many misplaced passes and passes out of play is simply unacceptable. Every red or yellow dot there is us having to suffer another attack. I don't expect Barcelona esque passing, but I do expect a high pass success rate and to be honest we did actually achieve that I guess. We had one player who started who didn't achieve over 70%.

Match Statistics

In the end we had a good game, but had to work a lot harder than we should of had to in a game where we was expected to dominate. I think a bit more closing down is certainly needed rather than standing-off. The biggest disappointment for me was just how many shots they managed to get on target. On a different day 2-3 of them could of gone in which for is unacceptable. For now we'll carry on as continued but rather than stand off press more, with the high defensive line also in place I don't want us going all out so we'll just stick to the team instruction hassle opponents except on LB/RB positions to try and cut out the crosses. And so att the end of the Rocester game the final score we have..

Port Vale 6 - 1 Rocester

[Lord Dakier]

So finishing all our friendlies and assessing our squad we have the last 3 match reports done. It would be great for some input on what you guys think.

Port Vale vs AJ Auxerre

With the exception of chances created as you can see this game was pretty even, at least statistically. Not much really tells how the game here went.

This heat map is probably starting to show how this game went. A ruthless battle for control of the game by both teams. In all honesty our midfield was under real pressure against Auxerre

Now my biggest woe was just how easy they found it to find space inside our box. Personally I thought we was playing to deep but until this game I wasn't so sure. The defence however did have a pure shocker and we really needed them firing especially when we're not winning the battle for control outright.

Port Vale vs Bristol Rovers

The first stat we have is a rather odd heat map. That in all honesty explains the game. See how those lines look like waves? Well the Bristol Rovers defence was like a shoreline which we kept battering and battering. Honestly I've never outright dominated a game so much as this one. It was unbeliable how they couldn't leave their own area.

Those stats look all well and good but lets be honest theres nothing special there is there? That average rating just isn't high enough. The shot count is lovely, but only 7 on target speaks problems.

And here we have it. The reason why we couldn't get into that area. That box just has no space whatsoever in there. It was worse than Barcelona vs Chelsea in the Champions League semi's. We dominated and the only way we managed to scrape a 1-0 win was through a penalty which in all honesty was an outright penalty, but we should be having more opportunities. With this game I'm starting to get a bit disappointed in our players looking to get on the outside of the box. It almost feels like once the false nine drops out we struggle to rush into the space quick enough.

Cambridge vs Port Vale

So far everything here just looks like another day at the office doesn't it? We've gone out against a weaker opponent and pretty much done what we intend to do. Let's just move on here...

Again we're finding it hard to get some real good chances away. It's almost as though we just need that next player to come along to make sure it goes and be a bit more aggressive inside the box. Maybe the Inside Forward switch should come in before the first game of the season.

And this is why I keep mentioning it. We're just not getting nothing from most of these crosses into the box. Bad crossing, mostly. They're supposed to be to the far post, but look like they're being played to the keeper. Once the balls down on the ground we do manage to get a goal or two in our games Dodds managed that in this game.

It's been awhile since I showed our passing. Nothing too bad here I guess. The fact the defender can't just come and grab the ball is a disappointment but nothing we can do about that. Now the reason why I picked this out is because I wanted to point out those passes on the outside of the oppositions 'D'. We're controlling the ball in their own area pretty comfortably. The problem the tactic currently faces is making enough movement into the box with players that aren't currently already supporting the ball holder. Perhaps an attacking duty is needed for our MCR?

And thats it for our friendlies. Overall we've done pretty well, but not well enough by my standards. Honestly I think mid-table is going to be a tough ask in this league, but we'll see. So I want some suggestions on how we can promote movement into the box and also keep our defensive line solid but ready to pounce the second the opposition starts to build up to a goal scoring chance. Any ideas?

As always thank you for reading and please join the discussion,

Lord D.

[kazm]

I advise making a back up save at this point. It might be a lot harder this patch cause defenders can't defend.

[Lord Dakier]

I advise making a back up save at this point. It might be a lot harder this patch cause defenders can't defend.

Yeah, good idea. I'll press on anyhow and see how we get on. Hopefully it works in our favour being that we plan on keeping the ball!

Any suggestions after reading?

[kazm]

Yes I think there is a bug with keepers kicking the ball. (or somehow they all suck at it.)

I would change gk to 'play to defenders' or whatever it's called, or 'fast throwin' if he is really good at that.

42/7 passes complete is the worst I've ever seen in FM for any player ^^.

What team instructions are you using/what shouts do you use? Failed passes are all vertical/somewhat vertical passes. (post #41) A lot of those passes are direct passes, maybe add shorter passing/retain possession? (After a lot of people gave suggestion's I don't know what tactic you are using exactly. Can you post it again or give me the nr of the post? Also, in the statistics screen you can add: defender passes completion %, Midfielder passes % and attacker passes % to see where you lose the most passes)

[Lord Dakier]

Yeah sorry about that I have been meaning to show the things I've played with. Here we go,

​

Specific Player Instructions

SK - Pass shorter, distribute to BPD

WB-L/R - Close down, stay wider, cross aim: far post

BBM-L/R - Close down

W-L/R - cross aim: far post, roam from position

Port Vale 3-5 A.JA Auxerre

Overall Passes Completed 77%

Defence Passes Completed 51%

Midfield Passes Completed 82%

Attack Passes Completed 87%

Port Vale 1-0 Bristol Rovers

Overall Passes Completed 81%

Defence Passes Completed 57%

Midfield Passes Completed 82%

Attack Passes Completed 93%

Cambridge 1-2 Port Vale

Overall Passes Completed 75%

Defence Passes Completed 48%

Midfield Passes Completed 80%

Attack Passes Completed 94%

[Lord Dakier]

Port Vale 2-0 Brentford

The mission was simple. Use what we have learned throughout pre-season and keep the ball under control. We all knew Brentford was favourite for this. They didn't give us the chance. Well first game of the season and we sure showed them! Impressively it seemed as though Brentford had no real answer to our defensive posture. The second they received the ball we was attacking them before they could get it under control. While that was underway if they did slip through those pressing we had our boys ready in a tough shape ready to hold the line so more pressing could go ahead risk-free.

In the attacking department we made so many attacks on the left-wing that Emile Mpenza the False Nine and Carl Dickinson THE LEFT BACK could just slot in a short cross both times. The opposition couldn't get a handle on Lee Cook our left winger and he was superb in etching his way through their defensive line, turning their backs and playing the final pass.

In terms of criticism, I don't really have any. The team played thoroughly well. I guess we should be doing more damage from these crosses, but we did get our two goals from them so what right do I have to complain at that I guess. I guess our defence and keeper need to be a bit more accurate with their passes, so we certainly need to look at ways we can improve them too.

This is it for Day Two of our tactical experiments. We've got our tactic working to what I'd call a skeleton shape of what it should be. The LB and RB are showing they can be very effective even while occupying similar space to the wingers. The formation itself is seeing players move into a multitude of different positions on the offence, yet be an aggressive but also organised force on defence. Tomorrow I have 5-aside football, so I'll squeeze out at least the League Cup game and maybe one or two league games.

Also is anyone interested in downloading the tactic and trying it out for themselves? I can add it to the Steam Workshop should people want to aid the experiment. Although I'm using the thread for my own tactical issues, I would certainly welcome anyone to try this out at any level and also post their issues or success stories here.

[kazm]

Nice result and performance.

The pass completion of both the GK and defense might get patched, but still that's a point to improve.

[Fox]

i am loving the football that my team are playing using this formation. but my full backs are awful. i don't have any specific instructions at the moment but most goals conceded come from wide positions

[Fox]

playing some great footy but my fullbacks are costing me big time