Macshimmy Posted November 6, 2013 Share Posted November 6, 2013 http://i1043.photobucket.com/albums/b439/macshimidh/celtic_feeder.png I'm genuinely not sure quite what to make of this, I've never seen a situation like this before in FM. Game started on beta, with only Scotland playable. Huge database, all players in UK loaded. I'm playing as Wick Academy, currently in Scottish Div1. Looking through their transfer history, Celtic sold their existing key players for very low prices (nothing above 2m) very early in the game (mostly the 14/15 season) Since then, they have relied extensively on loan players from top six premier league clubs. They are paying the highest wages in the SPFL by a long way, and have now won the League eight times in a row. What do you all think? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperJackLester Posted November 6, 2013 Share Posted November 6, 2013 Sounds like it's down to not many playable leagues being added. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Georgik Posted November 6, 2013 Share Posted November 6, 2013 Sounds like it's down to not many playable leagues being added. This is not an excuse, they sold Wanyama to Saints for like 10 mil pounds. Also, in my game Van Dijk signed for Arsenal for about 5 mil. Strange, as they were asking me 20 to sign him. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macshimmy Posted November 6, 2013 Author Share Posted November 6, 2013 I'm guessing, having had a quick squint at Man City (Celtics Parent Club) that the issues partly stem from problems with the AI in non-playable leagues not managing squads or trading players correctly. City have loads more high-quality players hanging around in their U-21's, including lots who just aren't getting a game at any level - Rodwell, Navas and Jovetic among them. City are paying, in total, £287,000/week in wages to players currently playing for Celtic. Celtic's total wage bill is £513,110/week. I'm kind of intrigued. Presumably if I manage to get Wick Academy to the SPFL and leave the universe setup the way it is, then I'll be able to get Arsenal or Chelsea as a parent club, and beat them at their own game? It would make the game pretty bizarre, but so would getting Wick to the SPFL I guess :-) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
forameuss Posted November 6, 2013 Share Posted November 6, 2013 In those cases, it looks like an absolute masterstroke for Celtic to be honest. They're getting very good players for "free", players they would have no chance of getting permanently. Sure it isn't the most sustainable system, but still. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
abhid30007 Posted November 6, 2013 Share Posted November 6, 2013 are celtic running in loss and want to be clear in FFP ?....so they sold their players to compensate for loss..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
YKW Posted November 6, 2013 Share Posted November 6, 2013 are celtic running in loss and want to be clear in FFP ?....so they sold their players to compensate for loss..... WOW! Cool question. Didn't even cross my mind. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macshimmy Posted November 6, 2013 Author Share Posted November 6, 2013 Celtic were making a pretty healthy profit at the time they sold their key players. Some of the numbers are pretty bizarre - they only got 675k for Joe Ledley, but £5m for Amido Balde. James Forrest went to Millwall on a free. Ochone. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macshimmy Posted November 6, 2013 Author Share Posted November 6, 2013 Stoke then flogged Ledley to Reading for £2m a couple of seasons later. Same thing happened with Anthony Stokes - sold to Palace for £675k, Palace sold him on for £1.7m Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
YKW Posted November 6, 2013 Share Posted November 6, 2013 Check their conversation history to see if they became unhappy at Celtic and perhaps requested transfers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelBrown Posted November 6, 2013 Share Posted November 6, 2013 Check their conversation history to see if they became unhappy at Celtic and perhaps requested transfers. Even so, the prices do seem a little low. I think this should definitely be uploaded, it's clearly not a realistic or sustainable way to squad build, especially if bigger clubs refuse to loan Celtic their players. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anti Spiral Posted November 6, 2013 Share Posted November 6, 2013 Were they near the ends of contracts? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
YKW Posted November 6, 2013 Share Posted November 6, 2013 Perhaps the AI managers were aggressively tapping up the players. Are the managers that bought them listed in the favoured personnel? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
milnerpoint Posted November 6, 2013 Share Posted November 6, 2013 Celtic were making a pretty healthy profit at the time they sold their key players. Some of the numbers are pretty bizarre - they only got 675k for Joe Ledley, but £5m for Amido Balde. James Forrest went to Millwall on a free. Ochone. When did they sell Ledley? In real life im sure his contract is about out, so that could explain the low fee. Forrest leaving on a free is not unimaginable, and Stokes again could have let his contract run down so he left for cheaper. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macshimmy Posted November 6, 2013 Author Share Posted November 6, 2013 I think the issue largely stems from the fact that a club the size of Celtic can have a 'parent' club in the game. That's plainly nonsensical. The baffling thing is that they are paying such ludicrous wages for the other loanees, although I guess the way the AI sees it, the wages at the club as a whole are fine. As far as I can see, there is nothing to stop them just loaning more players from Man City, for free. As it is, they are paying out £105k a week on loan fees. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macshimmy Posted November 6, 2013 Author Share Posted November 6, 2013 A quick survey of the other SPL clubs shows this relationship is the norm: Rangers - Man U Aberdeen - Swansea Ross County - Everton Kilmarnock - Fulham Inverness - Arsenal Hamilton - Southhampton Dundee United - Cardiff Dundee - Norwich Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
YKW Posted November 6, 2013 Share Posted November 6, 2013 Well found. What is the transfer record like at these clubs? Similar patterns? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macshimmy Posted November 6, 2013 Author Share Posted November 6, 2013 Looking at the nearest comparable club, Dundee United: In the first season, they sold some very good future prospects for fees which are reasonable, but not spectacular: Ryan Gauld - to Man U - £3.4m John Souttar - Chelsea - £1.9m second: Andrew Robertson - Forest - £1m Gary Mackay-Steven - Celtic - £1.2m Their situation is a little different - the four players they have on loan from Cardiff are much more modest talents, on fairly low wages. However, United have given them 'Key Player' or 'First Team' status, and are honouring this. I would say they are now much weaker competition for Celtic than they were initially. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macshimmy Posted November 6, 2013 Author Share Posted November 6, 2013 following Gary-Mackay Steven's career a bit further: Having bought him for £1.2m, Celtic then sold him after three seasons where he hardly played (was inferior to a loan signing?) to Leeds, for £950k. Leeds punted him on to Reading for 1.5m after a season. He's still there, but Reading have Arsenal as a parent club, and have loaned four players who are all 'Key Players', so he can't get in the team! Interestingly, Reading are paying 100% wages for loan signing from their parent club. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelBrown Posted November 6, 2013 Share Posted November 6, 2013 When did they sell Ledley? In real life im sure his contract is about out, so that could explain the low fee. Forrest leaving on a free is not unimaginable, and Stokes again could have let his contract run down so he left for cheaper. Surely the club would have made an attempt to resign them though? Whilst I understand about the contracts, it's nonsensical that Celtic would rely on loans from other clubs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macshimmy Posted November 6, 2013 Author Share Posted November 6, 2013 Surely the club would have made an attempt to resign them though? Whilst I understand about the contracts, it's nonsensical that Celtic would rely on loans from other clubs. I'm leaning towards thinking this is about players demanding 'key player' status - or in this case, is it Man City demanding it for their loanees (to be fair, they are among the best players in that current Celtic squad) which means the previous first team players - signed as 'first team' or even 'rotation' then don't get enough game time, and don't want to re-sign? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ant26587 Posted November 6, 2013 Share Posted November 6, 2013 Celtics player valuations are borked for some reason too. Anyway, if the AI managed to get Celtic into heavy debt in a few seasons that needs to be looked at, you start with a low transfer and wage budget and nearly 20 mil in the bank with no loans. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelBrown Posted November 6, 2013 Share Posted November 6, 2013 I'm leaning towards thinking this is about players demanding 'key player' status - or in this case, is it Man City demanding it for their loanees (to be fair, they are among the best players in that current Celtic squad)which means the previous first team players - signed as 'first team' or even 'rotation' then don't get enough game time, and don't want to re-sign? Could be, it's a good shout, especially if the loanees are that good that established Celtic players aren't getting game time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuhrerul Posted November 6, 2013 Share Posted November 6, 2013 might worth posting this in the bugs forum to be looked at. could be a bug, could be a masterstroke. how is Celtic doing in European competitions? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macshimmy Posted November 6, 2013 Author Share Posted November 6, 2013 might worth posting this in the bugs forum to be looked at. could be a bug, could be a masterstroke. how is Celtic doing in European competitions? Group stage in first two seasons, then last sixteen last three seasons, so not too shabby. I'm not sure if I interpret this as a bug exactly. It's more of an extreme illustration of how the loan system can go horribly wrong. It's certainly helping Celtic to completely dominate the SPFL - and they didn't need much help to start with! The other clubs with big brothers in England are only getting 'championship' quality players, the ones Celtic are getting are International class. I think I'll continue the game as it is, just because its such an odd situation, it will be interesting to see how it develops. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macshimmy Posted November 7, 2013 Author Share Posted November 7, 2013 Still sitting on the fence about what to do here, advice would be appreciated. I kind of wanted to play a very lean, narrow game, and not get distracted by 'outside' leagues, but I guess this invasion will really change the character of the league. I'm in two minds about whether to add more playable leagues to see if the transfer market picks up and whether this would mend the loan situation at all. I'm guessing it wouldn't fix the 'parent' club element - I might have to just live with that. I'm surprised there aren't more restrictive rules on loans to top divisions, guessing in reality it would never happen this way, so no need for rules? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
milnerpoint Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 Surely the club would have made an attempt to resign them though? Whilst I understand about the contracts, it's nonsensical that Celtic would rely on loans from other clubs. They may have done and the players refuse to sign, but i agree its mad that Celtic would have a squad like that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marky-mark Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 TBH the Scottish leagues have always been fecked in FM, usually it's severely pish regens though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lower Leagues Rule Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 I'd log it in the bug forums under transfer bugs... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macshimmy Posted November 7, 2013 Author Share Posted November 7, 2013 Not sure, it's not so much a bug as a consequence of the financial modelling. I'm guessing they never tried the game with Scotland loaded but not England? I would anticipate this pattern occuring every time. I'm now seeing the behaviour beginning to replicate in the lower leagues: The top scorers in League One play for Ipswich and Leicester. Eight out of 10 Championship are feeders for English clubs. I might just have to accept that S.I predict Scottish Football's future as a reserve system for the English Leagues The only way out would presumably be to add England as playable, even then the exisiting affiliations will continue the pattern. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelBrown Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 They may have done and the players refuse to sign, but i agree its mad that Celtic would have a squad like that. Which means they should've signed some other players, or dealt with the situation previously. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJ'43 Posted November 10, 2013 Share Posted November 10, 2013 Something like that happened in my game and Marítimo is getting a lot of players on loan from Lyon, their parent club... This happens every year since they started their partnership, 2017-18, 2018-19, 2019-20, 2020-21, 2021-22, 2022-23... and it's kinda annoying because this players are "too good" to play in portuguese league, so Marítimo just became one of the best teams in the country and they're doing great in european competitions... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
upthetoon Posted November 10, 2013 Share Posted November 10, 2013 there has to be a certain loan rules in the league right? they can loan unlimited players?? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wellyboo Posted November 10, 2013 Share Posted November 10, 2013 there has to be a certain loan rules in the league right? they can loan unlimited players?? I think most leagues have rules in place for domestic loans, but often foreign loans are unrestricted. Best shown by Watford last season, with half their squad seemingly on loan from Udinese reserves. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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