can't believe the game is still alive

[kevin_chn]

Being a cm/fm player from 2001 to 2007, I seldom play this series since then. But every September or October, I passed by SI's website, and read some news and ads about the new release, hoping to find something interesting. Nothing fundamentally new to me over the years. I mean, in respect of user experience, nothing new.

Back in the early 00's, when FM has only 2D or non-gui match engine, we played this game because we appreciated what SI believed. We bought what SI believed, their belief about modelling the football world. Later, it adopted 3D match engine, which superficially was okay to everybody, nothing to lose; but the idea behind the scene is that SI changed its way of building the game; SI changed its belief.

There are two types of companies. One meets the need of customers, doing what customers want and desire. The other defines what it does, telling customer what they want, or what the product it builds should be. SI changed from the latter to the former.

The release cycle is fixed as one game per year, in the sense that every such yearly release must be, in any sense, a new game worth some 50 pounds. The overhead of testing, marketing, and every other thing in the game engineering industry, will result in the current situation: numerous new features or enhancements at first glance, but few, if any real innovations or improvements ever since.

A football manager game being too simple is surely a stupid thing. But what about being too complicated? Even more stupid. Let me explain.

Byfoot manager is a linux based simple game for fun. You can play it for five minutes and throw it away until the next time you feel boring during coffee break, perhaps. Many PC games are for people to have fun or kill such five minutes' break. It's OK, just like the FM handheld (which is simple and boring, BTW).

CM/FM was not like Byfoot manager. CM/FM was fantastic. Why? It was not a simple game. It tried to model the real football realm in a game. Yes, it is, after all, a game. Here is the problem: you notice that I mentioned the word "model" or "modelling" frequently. The football manager game, or simulator, if you will, is not the reality, and never will be. In fact, the modelling is coarse and less than correct in every serious sense. But this is not important for a game, if it is moderately complicated and provides enough fun, like CM01/02, CM4, maybe all the way thru FM07 or so.

Look what you play today. FM2014. I played FM2013 for a while in my cousin's home. Too complicated. Don't get me wrong. I am a degree holder and a mobile software developer. I fear no complications. I just dislike the wrong ones. The considerable portion of the complications involved in FM today is totally redundant. First, tons of players win UEFA champions league without researching or even caring about these complications. And I suspect those who do deep research about these complications, such as the training module, the statistics etc, will sometimes be outperformed by their friends who don't. The football world in FM is far from the real one. SI never stopped trying to better model the real football world into FM. I appreciate their endeavor. But it is a huge mistake to put more complications than the model can actually burden. In 07, the sliding bars for tactics should be like this. The next year, they must be changed fundamentally, if you still want to win some matches. But the real football world never changed that drastically, not to mention whether it is proper to model the football tactics by sliding bars and check boxes, and different shouts along the sideline if you take into account recent years' releases. CM/FM07 was a good balance. Moderate complications, moderate difficulty, moderate time consumption per season.

Kindly remind you that I am totally OK with the way SI models the football world. Hey, it's just a game. Be tolerate. Fine. But, please, stop complicating the game experience. Stop adding those statistics and analysis things into the game. The game, by its definition, doesn't worth any human being's time for that research or study, if you will. People should spend their research or study time in school, in work, or, in the nature, where the law of the universe makes sure the cause and effect. In the game, the laws have many flaws (you can tell by the arguable folklore that no fm is playable until the first few patches), and the laws change every year, if not every patch. The fact that some minor football countries win continental titles or what a good tactic looks like changes every now and then should be enough to remind everybody that he is just playing a game. Being too much serious is, beyond the capability and the value of the game.

I really want SI to change its course to its original belief. What is a football manager game? Close your eyes, and listen to yourself.

[theking1]

I just wasted 2-3 minutes of my life reading that......and I still don't get your point

[SurferJames]

many will disagree with you and its not really that complicated, though I see your point to some degree.

[Jibby123]

You sound like I feel or think out loud or post after 10 cans of stella (usually after 10pm ish) and seem to be a bit contradictory on whether you're fine with the way it's modelled or you're not.

That said I get and agree with you that it's become a (too?) complex game especially for the young or new to the game, but I play with my son on his FM Classic save (way before the 10 cans kick in or 10pm) and as an original "no way would I touch FMC" stalwart, the speed and simplicity of getting through a season is growing on me and taking me back to how it once was. Maybe try FM Classic?

[SurferJames]

I think this day and age kids of our nature can grow and learn vastly because of the generation we live in.

[Just-Wool]

It's the added layer of complexity and the fact that people don't have time to delve into the game at times that SI bundle in a completely different version of FM in the guise of FM classic which is more like the game back in 00/01.

*shrug*

[Auqakuh]

Yeah, see, you don't even play the game. So... why should your opinion be of any value whatsoever? That would be like Lionel Messi asking a tennis player for tips about football.

Sure, the tennis player might have some great ideas about balance, about enhancing agility, but that's it. They both play sport, but that doesn't mean they can help each other or advise each other.

Likewise, you play other games, but you don't play this one, so what you have to say about this one really only has superficial value.

[kevin_chn]

Sorry for everyone already in or will be in this thread.

I actually spent a sleepless night, and I am indeed very contradictory, because I, from the bottom, like this game. I didn't intend to write such "periodical" post, but I did.

I didn't have a clear point of view, but I didn't intend to have one, because I didn't mean to persuade anyone. All I wanted to express was what I thought. But I didn't give it a very good thought, I must admit.

Every year, new kids reach their age of capable of playing such a game. And every year old friends are too old to show more passion for such a game. Very well-formed law.

You sound like I feel or think out loud or post after 10 cans of stella (usually after 10pm ish) and seem to be a bit contradictory on whether you're fine with the way it's modelled or you're not.

That said I get and agree with you that it's become a (too?) complex game especially for the young or new to the game, but I play with my son on his FM Classic save (way before the 10 cans kick in or 10pm) and as an original "no way would I touch FMC" stalwart, the speed and simplicity of getting through a season is growing on me and taking me back to how it once was. Maybe try FM Classic?

[kevin_chn]

The classic mode is like what most companies do: when you are not sure how to design, create an option and let the user decide.

In some scenarios, this works fine.

In others not.

What FM does, is to model the football world. There is only one such world, and many models. Given two models (the ordinary one and the classic one in our case), there must be a way to compare their respective similarity to the real world. People want the more similar one (presumably the ordinary mode).

What I feel is that the even after SI removes many things from the current model, it can be as similar as it is now to the real world. But on the contrary, SI continues to add things, without actually or proportionally increasing the similarity to the real world.

You sound like I feel or think out loud or post after 10 cans of stella (usually after 10pm ish) and seem to be a bit contradictory on whether you're fine with the way it's modelled or you're not.

That said I get and agree with you that it's become a (too?) complex game especially for the young or new to the game, but I play with my son on his FM Classic save (way before the 10 cans kick in or 10pm) and as an original "no way would I touch FMC" stalwart, the speed and simplicity of getting through a season is growing on me and taking me back to how it once was. Maybe try FM Classic?

[Kain]

Thing is, if they hadn't added all of these things to the game, what could they have done to still keep the game fresh and exciting? Every product needs a sales pitch, they all need to be improved or added to from the previous incarnations. Those that don't add enough lose customers due to a lack of interest and simply die.

[kevin_chn]

Exactly. That's how the industry works. I am really in a delimma when writing all these non sense.

Thing is, if they hadn't added all of these things to the game, what could they have done to still keep the game fresh and exciting? Every product needs a sales pitch, they all need to be improved or added to from the previous incarnations. Those that don't add enough lose customers due to a lack of interest and simply die.

[SurferJames]

even if industry works that way most of the customers want more advanced level of games this is way it works nowadays, everything has to keep improving...though their games with classical features these are normally not at high end of the market

[Jibby123]

.....I am really in a delimma when writing all these non sense.

I need this as my posting sig for a lot I type here....if SI allowed them here.

I'd get your head down mate. This isn't going to end well.

[Kriss]

Tbh I find the feedback thread more interesting and inspiring

[Sheppy12]

I'll chuck in my two cents, for what it's worth. I played CM from the first Amiga version until CM4 religiously. This was my school and uni days and as such had a LOT of "spare" time. I had brief dalliances with fm05 and 07 but it was not until 09 that I returned in earnest and I found the game had passed me by.

No longer was it possible to just load your one tactic and click and play. I found it too complicated and I struggled. I downloaded some tactics from here and learnt the other aspects of the game without having to worry about being sacked by Xmas.

I followed this formula until 13 when I tried but again failed at creating my own tactics. This year though, I read llama3's brilliant tactics threads and I've finally managed to get a tactic working and I'm doing well under my own steam.

Bottom line. If it looks over complicated then you are worrying about the wrong aspects. Get your tactics right first and there are plenty a guys on here that can help with that. From then on its a case of dabbling with training and scouting until you find the balance you want.

Ramble over.

[Stevo_99]

I genuinely read the first two paragraphs and couldn't be bothered reading the rest. What a terribly dull, boring and uninteresting post.

Can this thread be moved?

[walsh]

[Ecudortne]

I genuinely read the first two paragraphs and couldn't be bothered reading the rest. What a terribly dull, boring and uninteresting post.

Can this thread be moved?

Same as above.

[Richey2008]

Wow. I just lost 5 minutes of my life.

[kevin_chn]

Tbh I find the feedback thread more interesting and inspiring

I started to hate myself. Please lock this thread if I am entitled to make this request. I'll get some sleep.

[Stevo_99]

I really want SI to change its course to its original belief. What is a football manager game? Close your eyes, and listen to yourself.

This is without doubt the most cringe-worthy thing I've ever read on this forum.

[Foot]

Dear OP, I wrote you a poem:

This is the worst thread,

That I have ever read,

It had no point,

It was all disjoint,

I wish I'd read Twilight instead.

[kevin_chn]

If 'worst' is not abusive here, I am surprised at the volume you have read in your life. No offense. I am kidding.

Dear OP, I wrote you a poem:

This is the worst thread,

That I have ever read,

It had no point,

It was all disjoint,

I wish I'd read Twilight instead.

[Foot]

If 'worst' is not abusive here, I am surprised at the volume you have read in your life. No offense. I am kidding.

I'm also kidding, I mean no insult. Get some rest mate, and post a new thread when you've figured your thoughts out.

[Ecudortne]

Yeah, people (including me) are only messing about, don't take any of it personally.

You're entitled to your opinion like everyone else

[dean66683]

I believe (hope) the point he is making is that the very core and basic element of any footi sim that should come 1st and foremost is the game it's self (match engine/results). Because there is not point signing players, building the squad, upgrading facilities and training your players if the results are dog ****. No body should expect to win every game even with the best team or tactic because that's not football but you expect 'A team' to beat 'B team' 80%? of the time even with just basic tactics. Too often my self and many friends have to wait for a 3rd or feb patch until the game is at it should be. There is the age old 'it's your tactics, but it's funny how by the time a 3rd or feb patch comes out I can create a tactic that gives the 80%? Of course you can always use the flaws in the match engine to win but id rather win because the team plays the way i want and because we are the better side. I know si feel they need to offer atleast new aesthetics to games each year otherwise it's 'just an update' but get the match engine right 1st, then **** about with everything else. These forums would be a lot quieter if you did that!

I for one after years and years of loyalty will only be purchasing the next fm after feb 2015 to make a point and i'd advise others to do the same, Because when I purchase something i expect it to be fit for use. An for those that will claim it is, why are so many ****ing patches needed!?

I know it's not easy creating such a complex game si and when it's 'finished' it's the dogs but please get the basics right 1st.

[Schotsmannetje]

It's the added layer of complexity and the fact that people don't have time to delve into the game at times that SI bundle in a completely different version of FM in the guise of FM classic which is more like the game back in 00/01.

*shrug*

To be fair the Classic mode was designed to provide a faster gaming experience, not a less complex one. The most complex part of FM imo, the tactics, are still as complicated in FMC as in the full game. Same thing applies to transfers.

I've opted in the FMC forums that if they want FM to become more accessable for more casual gamers, they should make the tactics less complicated in FMC.

[Roy Race 9]

I understand to an extent what you are saying...and some will take the pxxx because they don't understand what you are saying or they just want validation by making snide comments on threads like yours to look good to others the bottom line is in terms of value for money this game is right up there, I think it is the best and I believe every year SI are improving/or trying to improve their product, they also provide patches/updates that they are not obliged to do(some will counter that stating there shouldn't be a need to do this if the product wasn't ready for release it shouldn't have come out).

we each pay our money and get great enjoyment from the game- some will get through seasons in no time just playing match games, others delve into the full immersion by scouting/watching other teams play/managing the reserve/u18 team/ etc etc and taking ages to complete one season....others spend ages editing and its up to them we all love it for different things:thup: