4-4-2 - I just can't make it work

[FMWolf]

So, I play a 4-4-2 with Benfica (SLB). I have a good squad, with some lack of quality on my righ full backs - none of them is that good. Apart from that, another problem that can be causing issues is the speed of my centers backs. I have Luisao and Garay (Musacchio for the cover), who are great but not that fast. So like I said in 4-4-2 with this form:

GK - Defend

Wing Back-Support--------Central Defender-Defend----------Central Defender-Defend----------Wing Back - Attack

---------------------- Deep Lying Playmaker-Support---------Defensive Midfielder- Support

Winger-Attack---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Advanced Playmaker-Support

------------------------Target Man-Support------------Poacher-Attack

I play a fluid control tactic with these instructions:

-look for overlaps

-offside trap

-direct passing

-pass into space

-hight tempo

For the players, i have (i don't have the game in english, but i guess these are right:

GK-distribute to defenders

Right Wing Back-keep wide, aim for the 1ºst post, dribble less

Left Wing Back-keep wide, aim for the 2ºnd post, get further forward

Central Defenders- play it shorter

Defensive midfielder- nothing (don't really know how to make him work better)

Deep Lying Playmaker- play it more direct

Winger-get further forward, aim for the 1ºst poste, shoot less often

Advanced Playmaker- aim for the 2ºnd poste, roam from position, cut inside

Target Man- hold position

Poacher- roam from position, pass it shorter

I've been having some kind of mixed results. I've won sporting and shaktar (both at home) 4-0 and 3-1 respectably but i've also draw with the likes of maritimo(H), paços de ferreira(A) and even lost to rio ave(A) (relative weak teams). The corner bug hasn't helped me a lot (i´ve conced the two draws from two last minute corners xD), but it's clearly not just that. My left side of the team just works wonders (I have Siqueira as wing back and Gaitan as advanded playmaker, both with 7.20 and 7.65) but on the right side things don't shine so brite. My winger (Salvio) isn't playing bad, but none of my my full backs are (Maxi Pereira/Silvio). The poacher isn't playing that much (Rodrigo- 2 goals in 9 games) but my target man is with 4 goals in 3 matches (Cardozo). The defensive midfielder is also getting low ratings (Matic) but the deep lying playmaker seems to just fine (Honda). I don't know if I should push Matic and Honda further on the field (and have Matic as midfielder-defende) or maybe push Salvio higher up (but i don't think that will help the right backs, i just don´t know xD

Any suggestions are welcome

[S2008]

I might be wrong here and perhaps those better educated in tactics could add a lot more but I think there are a few things I might change.

I would look to have your Defensive Midfielder set to Defend as it might help cover your Wingback (though I think you could consider switching them to fullbacks for greater solidarity at the back).

You might want to consider switching your Poacher to an Advanced Forward so that he can offer you a lot more build up play as a poacher is a bit of a goal hanger and the team will most likely be forced to carry him putting even more pressure on your playmakers to create chances.

[FMWolf]

Thanks for the advice. I'll change the wingbacks to fullbacks and see how it goes. What's really annoying me is that the team plays well, but in like 5min we pass from being winning 2-0 to drawing 2-2 (and this happens far more against weaker teams, i've 6 draws in the portuguese league, and that's not acceptable for a any of the big 3 teams in Portugal). I've tried to ease off pressure, take one of the strikers off and put on more midfielder, etc... and i just can't do it xD It's really frustrating when you see your team beating Juventus away and then draw with Belenenses at home xD I'll give you feedback on the switch of the wingbacks to fullbacks

[Auqakuh]

4-4-2 doesn't work against modern teams, because they will always have at least one more man in midfield than you, and you will always have one to two less men in attack (because wingbacks don't work well with a 4-4-2 - too much space between defence and midfield... although this isn't stopping you from trying it ). That, and the big man-quick man attack pairing has been dead for a long time now, for good reason: that one extra man in midfield is invaluable.

If you want to play 4-4-2, you have to secretly actually be playing a 4-5-1 (IE, with a deep-lying forward or false 9).

I'd also suggest going with balanced instead of fluid, since there are no defending players you want to attack in that 4-4-2.

Not everyone will agree with this, though.

[FMWolf]

Yeah, definitely one of the bigger problems: teams playing 4-5-1 against me (the majority of the weaker teams xD). My problem is if setting up a deep-lying forward or a false 9, which would be the role for Cardozo (the big man in my attack). Should i play as a poacher and have him not roaming position (how he plays in real life basically), or just leave it as a target man (but i think that would leave my strikers too far behind). Another doubt about this tactic, shouldn't the advanced playmaker make up for the lack of men in the midfield? About the wing backs, i totaly agree that wing backs leave more space between defence and midfield but i just can't make full backs work for me in this version (which really annoys me because that's how i play them since i play fm xD). I'm still trying to make some changes but the results are keeping to be the same: i score 2 or 3 goals in advance anh then concede 2 or 3 goals in like 5min :confused:

[Marsupian]

You have a couple of players who pretty heavily rely on exploiting space behind the defense (classic targetman/poacher combo, winger and overlapping wing play). Your control strategy and fluid philosophy goes directly against this and will make finding space behind the defense really hard. I'd go for a more balanced philosophy with either an attacking or counter strategy (as you are trying to play more direct and high tempo an attacking strategy probably suits you best). You also don't have any midfielders coming forward so you might have some trouble getting enough players in and around the box (maybe made worse by your target man not really focusing on bringing himself in a scoring position) you could let your defensive midfielder make forward runs to see how that works.

You say your left side isn't working well, maybe switch their duties (if it suits your players) to see how that works. Have your wingback overlap and your winger play more from deep to get involved in play more, it might work better.

The main play in your team seems to be to play it direct to your TM and then bring other attackers into play, to do this you need to break quickly (before the opponent can set up their defense and restrict space) so a counter or attacking strategy is pretty much required and a more balanced/rigid philosophy will have your attackers stay further forward and increase space between the lines which should also help.

[FMWolf]

I'm definitely going to try that. In the beginning of the season I was playing with attack and fluid, but that seemed to leave a big space on the back of my team and i was conciding a lot of goals from counters (it's like i said, in portugal you have 3 big teams and the others just try to sit back and make a goal on the counter). So that's why i've changed to control. With the philosophy i have been always using fluid because i imagined the team defend as a whole unit and attack as a whole unit (pretty much like the team plays in real life).

Another thing i couldn't replicate from the real way they play with the 4-4-2 i've been using was the high pressing on the oposition half. I've put the midfielders up on the pitch, set the team to hassle oponents, push higher up and much higher defensive line but didn't seem to work. Maybe the speed of my centers back is one of the reasons why.

One thing i've been wonder: if i changed the role of the target man to be a poacher (a static one) and the poacher to a false 9 or a deep-lying forward, would it help to win the "midfield battle"? Because in real life Cardozo is pretty much like a poacher, he just sits on the box waitting for the ball to come in. I've set him to be a target man because i felt that in the game that would work better (don't get me wrong, he has 12 goals in 10 matches and my sub has 5 in 7) but i guess that for the team it isn't the best role

I really wanted to replicate the team tactics on the game, but i guess i won't be able to achieve that 100%

[stoostoo]

If you're having trouble against weaker sides in a 442, try lowering your tempo and passing distance. With a high tempo 442 and two wingers like you're playing the ball will get forward very quickly. The wingers will constantly go rogue and run at the defense and try for amazing solo goals and one of the strikers always seems to play badly. If you check your stats and the center midfielders are not seeing 80 to 100 pass attempts as well the tempo is too high for a game like that. You're dumping the ball forward trying to play at breakneck pace against a team you are stronger than. In my opinion it works better to slow tempo, build out back, shorten the passing and have the team press in these situations. Rigid mentality helps as well with control. It will keep the teams shape which helps with pressing and build up slow (gets the fullbacks involved on overlaps) which keeps the game in the oppositions half which means your pressing is winning the ball in good areas already. If you try this change possession should skyrocket and despite not playing what the game may say is attacking football you'll be generating more goal scoring chances.

[FMWolf]

I've never thought that! I was really thinking that the high tempo was what would make the team "steamroll" the opposition, so i never really considered the low tempo. The way you put it tho, it really helps the team make what i want them to do. Another thing, with these new instructions should i push the midfielders up on the pitch? And have a standard center midfielder set to defend and another on support duty? And maybe have the winger (or at least on of them) on the same line? (winger---center midfielder---center midfielder---winger)

[Special1One]

ok dude here we go, change wing backs to full backs. change defensive mid to defend, also move one striker if he can play behind the other one, something like 4411. wingers are fine, get full backs as support and get forward and dribble. Take off direct passing unless u have good passers use nothing or short, take offside trap off unless u have pacey def with high concentration. advance support playmaker change to winger. take off look for overlaps. add retain possesion, control playing style, get stuck in, hassle apponents, Roam From Positions, play out of defense. If by half time u are not doing ok or you have not scored, before second half change control to attack, and add push higher up. This will surprise the opposition and you should bang in a few goals. Try it or u can have attack from start but push higher only use later on.

[stoostoo]

The instructions themselves would be up to you. Personally I find you need one of the wide men getting forward and it is handy to have one of the two center midfielders with extra forward runs on as well. Naturally one center midfielder has to be back at all times to help carry the ball out of defense. As special one said I do recommend giving the fullbacks instructions for dribble more and maybe cross more. If you don't do dribble more they will receive the ball wide around the corner of the box and never dribble the ball to the byline even when unopposed for an easy cross. It can be maddening. I've tried using both strikers with attacking duties bUT find its not too effective. A deep lying forward support attacking nd advanced forward is a simple and effective partnership. Ditto in center midfield with a CMA and and CMD. I don't use wingers I use wide midfielders sometimes both on attack sometimes on support or a sraggered. I don't generally use wingers they get too much creative freedom which I find breaks the system. But it is kind of up to you maybe the wingers are world class. Personally I'm looking for more hard work and I want all the chances to fall to the advanced forward and that is what this formation is about in my opinion. Crafting chances for the strikers...

You play with two up front it makes the rest of the team workhorses for getting the ball in the box for those two and maybe an on rushing midfielder. Fancy inside forwards are for different formations.

[wakey24]

My 4-4-2 is working really well in the Championship with Barnsley. It looks a like this:

GK defend

FB defend CB defend CB defend FB defend

DW support DLP defend DLP support WM attack

DLF support T attack

The team instructions I use are hassle opponents and then will watch the first 20 or so minutes of a game to determine the width and defensive line of the team.

I also use a Fluid, Standard philosophy.

I have seen some great results with this tactic, after tweaking it throughout the first half of the second season. I have dragged my Barnsley side from 24th in the league right up to 15th just before Christmas. I might even go on to do a Roy Keane.

[Britrock]

442 is, 90% of the time, going to lose the possession battle because the opposition will always have a spare man in the centre of midfield to pass to. That's just one of those things you have to live with if you want to play the formation. The best way to counter it is to keep the distance between the two banks of 4 as small as possible so the extra guy (who tends to be a DMC or AMC) doesn't have much room to operate in. The best way to do that in FM terms would probably be a fluid or very fluid system (so the players have similar mentalities) and maybe pushing the defensive line up.

As a result of losing the possession battle, you're probably going to be playing on the counter a lot, and as your strengths lie on the flanks (moreso than the centre of the pitch anyway) you might want to try clear ball to flanks and/or exploit the flanks, with more direct passing to try and bypass the extra man in the middle and get the ball forward as quickly as possible. I'd change the poacher to an AF, as the poacher hardly does anything or move anywhere.

It's going to be more Stoke on a wet Wednesday evening than Barcelona, but it might be effective.