Help improving my 5-3-2/3-5-2

[JensP]

I've always considered the tactics to be my strength in the Football Manager, but in FM14 I have really been struggling so far. Anyway, lately I've ditched my 4-1-2-2-1 for a 5-3-2/3-5-2 and my results have improved to the point where I've stopped pulling my hair out. This is what the tactic currently looks like:

I really like what this formation looks like when I'm in possession. The wing backs push up to give me the width I need in attack. As the wing backs push up, the DCL/DCR push wide so that the wide areas of my defense is covered. This leaves the center of my defense with only my DC, but the MC with Defend duty sits pretty deep and supports the DC.

The obvious defensive weakness of this formation is the flanks. However, I've had decent results against teams attacking me down the flanks by pulling the MCL out wide (ML) with a Defensive Winger/Support role/duty and, if my opponent attacks both flanks, pulling down one of the strikers to the MR position with the same role/duty:

This means that my wing backs still charge forward in attack while the ML/MR sits deeper covering the wide areas of my defense.

This tactic works OK in games where we can sit back and hit the opponent on counter attacks.

We rarely have more than 45% possession, and this is were I would love some insights. Ideally I would like to combine the effective transitions and counter attacks, which this tactic is currently providing, with a patient, short passing style when we are in possession to retain the ball and wait for an opportunity.

Is that even possible? I'm afraid to just add Short Passing/Lower Tempo/Retain Possession to the team instructions as I am afraid that would ruin the quick counters that is currently working so well. Is think that, given the shape of the formation when in possession (see picture above), we should be able to keep hold of the ball better than we currently are.

Any tips on how to make this tactic more possession friendly would be greatly appreciated. Even if it means adding a second tactic with the same formation for situations where we need a patient approach.

Would you change anything (roles/duties/instructions) to make the current tactic more robust?

Any insights are welcome. I'm looking forward to seeing what comments you guys have on this tactic. (I know it's not the most original one out there...)

Thanks,

-J-

[JamieAdams3]

I think you will have to accept that 3-5-2/5-3-2, like any other formation, has its flaws. As you pointed out, the flanks are the main weak point. I understand using attacking wing backs and a defensive winger to give you that cover but, for me, that is a waste of 2 players.

One of your concerns is possession. Changing the wing backs to support will ensure that they show for the ball rather than staying high up and, more often than not, hard to pass to when building from the back. A general rule of thumb I think of: Defend = level/behind the ball, Support = showing for the ball/slightly ahead of it, Attack = ahead of the ball to penetrate space.

Secondly, moving one of the defensive wingers into the DM strata will help you build from the back and thus control the game better. It will also enable you to cover the flank space that is vacated when a wing back progresses up the pitch.

Moving the other defensive winger into the AM strata will provide a link between midfield and attack. As your striker is a DLFs, maybe you could try a Support Striker?

Anyway, who am I to say a wing back and a defensive winger can't work? It could be a stroke of genius for all I know. Like I said, the flaw of 3-at-the-back formations is that the flanks are often vulnerable. Perhaps give your wing back the 'close down less' instruction to stop them getting dragged out?

EDIT: Adding 'distribute to defenders' to your goalkeeper will certainly give you some more possession/control, if you don't have that instruction already.

[Britrock]

I'd add look for the overlap to the second formation, it should emphasise the WBs bombing past the wingers. You could even try the DWs on defensive?

I've found that an APa doesn't actually get forward that much, a CMa is much better at getting forward and linking the play, which may help to retain possession a bit higher up the park and provide more of a goalscoring threat. With your three CBs and defensive wingers, I'd say that you're pretty solid defensively so you can afford for your MCs to be more offensive. Maybe a CMa and APs, or even an APa?

[Spireheart]

I've been playing a 3-5-2 variation for a while now and developed something i'm very happy with. i play a sweeper with two stoppers in front, then a half back in front of them. Then i have two Wingbacks on support with my midfield pair as a box to box and CM(a). Up front i play an enganche laying just behind my complete forward. Worked wonders for multiple saves. The only problem is finding a decent sweeper, i retrained Rivers Balanta into one which seems to have worked very well.

[BiggusD]

I've been playing a 3-5-2 variation for a while now and developed something i'm very happy with. i play a sweeper with two stoppers in front, then a half back in front of them. Then i have two Wingbacks on support with my midfield pair as a box to box and CM(a). Up front i play an enganche laying just behind my complete forward. Worked wonders for multiple saves. The only problem is finding a decent sweeper, i retrained Rivers Balanta into one which seems to have worked very well.

I use a similar formation as you describe as a defensive formation when I get tired of all the through balls. I use three central defenders though, not two. Maybe the third isn't necessary, but I like the complete cessation of one-on-ones that occurs when I switch to it

My normal formation is a 343, btw. I read this tread earlier and couldn't think of anything to improve it... perhaps with the exception of using an AMC. Advicing to bump the wing backs up to wide midfielders might not be received as actual advice for this tactic - and I haven't tried wing backs in mine and wouldn't see the point either.

What I would do in the OP's case would be to add a 343 as a secondary, attacking tactic and try it when he is desperate enough to swap a midfielder for a striker anyways. This might be good for two reasons; the risk might pay off; and he might get ideas for changes to his current tactic.

[Spireheart]

If i bump the Wingbacks up a notch i'd play them as defensive wingers. I really like the way the half back and sweeper have been playing with this defense. Nice to watch and plenty of clean sheets. i am struggling to score though, so i may try pushing those wingbacks up

[JensP]

What I would do in the OP's case would be to add a 343 as a secondary, attacking tactic and try it when he is desperate enough to swap a midfielder for a striker anyways. This might be good for two reasons; the risk might pay off; and he might get ideas for changes to his current tactic.

I think I will try to add a 3-4-3 formation to my a(A)rsenal (see the shirts?). I'll post back with some screens to show what I've come up with for this formation.

Secondly, moving one of the defensive wingers into the DM strata will help you build from the back and thus control the game better. It will also enable you to cover the flank space that is vacated when a wing back progresses up the pitch.

Moving the other defensive winger into the AM strata will provide a link between midfield and attack. As your striker is a DLFs, maybe you could try a Support Striker?

I'll try to utilize a DM and/or and AM and see what that does to my possession. Think I will use this as a third tactic for a possession game, and leave my current tactic the way it is. This way I can also add some possession friendly instructions.

I'm between seasons in my game right now, so it's a perfect time to incorporate some new tactics!

[JamieAdams3]

Good luck, keep us updated.

Just about to start testing this shape out:

----------GKd

------CDd---CDd

-CWBa---HBd---WBd

------DLPs--CMs

----SSa---------APs

------------Ta

[Hunter T]

This tactic works OK in games where we can sit back and hit the opponent on counter attacks.

We rarely have more than 45% possession, and this is were I would love some insights. Ideally I would like to combine the effective transitions and counter attacks, which this tactic is currently providing, with a patient, short passing style when we are in possession to retain the ball and wait for an opportunity.

Try playing with a libero/sweeper instead of 3 DCs in the same line. This, will give you extra cover in defence. Salvatore Bocchetti is a good solid SW.

Try playing with a control mentality and i think is vital for your team to push further up in the field. By using a SW you will be able to have your defensive line push up, leading the opposition to make mistakes and make transitions and counter attacks more easy for you.

[JensP]

Okay, so here's what the two new tactics looks like so far:

This is the tactic for playing a patient, possession based game. I've moved the MCR up to the AM strata, but kept the Advanced Playmaker/Attack role/duty. I have also changed both wing backs to Wing Back/Support to have them stay a little bit deeper to provide passing options for the other players.

For team instructions I removed the Exploit the flanks. I did this because my wing backs are now sitting a little bit deeper (they are still getting forward when we are attacking). I also don't want my team focusing the attacks on any specific position, since this is supposed to be a "wait for an opportunity to open up anywhere" kind of tactic.

I have added Short Passing, Retain Possession, Work Ball Into Box, Run At Defense, Lower Tempo and Much Higher Defensive Line.

The Short Passing and Retain Possession I think is obvious considering what type of game I am trying to play with this tactic. Lower Tempo kind of goes hand in hand with Short Passing (or am I wrong?), so that is why I added that one. Much Higher Defensive Line I have added to lessen the distance between my defensive line and the rest of my team when we are in possession. This (I hope) will enable my defenders to take part in retaining possession. The last two I am more uncertain about. I added Work Ball Into Box and Run At Defense because they felt natural in a patient, passing game where we are keeping the ball, waiting for an opportunity to open up. Could be that these two instructions really aren't working the way I think and that they aren't doing me any good in this type of a tactic.

So this is my 3-4-3/5-2-3, chasing a goal, attacking tactic. As you can see I have not made any changes to the team instructions. Maybe I should have added something like More Direct Passing/ Higher Temp etc. What do you think? My reasoning for not changing the Team Instructions was that the Attacking mentality alone makes sure that the team plays a faster, more direct kind of game. Am I wrong here?

For the formation, I have simply moved the MCL/Automatic up to STCL as a second Advanced Forward/Attacking. I have also changed the right wing back from Wing Back/Attack to Complete Wing Back/Attack. Not sure if this makes a big difference, but I just wanted to make sure that the wing backs go all out to help creating chances.

Any thoughts on any of these tactics? I am only in preseason now, so I have only played lesser opponents. Therefore, I don't feel I can make any conclusions that the new tactics work just because I have around 65% possession and creating chances with the first tactic and I seem to be scoring a lot of goals from the second one as well, since these matches are against weak oppositions.

[BiggusD]

I would go More Direct in the 523 because with three men not contributing to defending at all, you would want to involve them as much as possible. Attack strategy makes the Tempo quicker yes, but it also instructs defenders to play a shorter passing game building up from the back. More Direct ensures that they go for that long pass more often.

Advanced Forwards are instructed to run with the ball and focus on getting into a finishing position. Given the high-pressure nature of a 343/523 they will be in the box a lot and thus the type of striker I have had the most success with are the big, strong target man type (who is also creative and technical). The quick spearhead dribbler kind of striker which suits the AF-A role best will of course be nice to have on the counter-attack, but usually struggle to make an impact against a crowded defense pushed back into their own area. That's why I have a DLF-A/TQ/DLF-A trio up front. If you don't like their running-straight-towards-the-goal-with-the-ball behaviour, change the roles to DLF-A, which makes them less selfish and make wiser choices (imo).