Help! How to build a counter attacking system that counter attacks..

[BenSammy]

I'm really struggling here, a lot of my problems may simply be my the level of my opponents and lack of tactics familiarity considering I'm in preseason, but I'm noticing a few glaring flaws..

Obviously for a countering attacking system my mentality is set to counter. My tempo is higher, and more direct passing seem like logical places to go from there, as does clear ball to flanks using a system that uses quick wingers..

Here are the problems I'm having, my team are not counter attacking..

As soon as an opponents attack breaks down, there doesn't seem to be any urgency to get the ball forward..

Instead of bombing down the wings, my wingers zig-zag ever so slowly with the ball refusing to take a player on or run a full speed with it..

On previous saves, I've seen devastating counter attacks by my teams set up with an attacking mentality, so I ask, why the obvious difference in play..

What are the general rules for setting up a counter attacking system?

Thanks

[Telemachos]

A few things:

1) What league and team are you using?

2) What formation are you using?

3) What philosophy (fluid, ridged) are you using?

3) Why do you have the team instructions? Have you tried to play your formation without any of the team instructions?

4) Have you gone through your player instructions first and fine tuned those before setting team instructions?

The basic rule of setting a counter attack is... setting mentality to counter.

To answer why so different between previous saves.... oh yeah, those previous saves- well I got with the review board on the forums here and as a collective effort, we discussed your devastating counter attacks. Apparently the AI was complaining too much and we decided to nerf you- it was the only possible solution. Really, can you honestly expect anyone on the forums to magically possibly know what the hell you have on your saves let alone if it was version let alone 14.1.4.

[BenSammy]

That's not what I asked..

I asked for general rules regarding counter attacking strategies, it's right there in the last sentence..The rest was just a little bit of me not understanding why it wasn't working..

1: Dutch 1st division - FC Groningen

2: 4.2.4

3: Fluid

4: I've set some player instructions, it's just knowing which one's as general rules work in a counter strategy.

If the basic rule of a counter strategy was to set to counter I wouldn't be here..

The problem I had, but this might be due to my opposition was that, setting to counter, my team were so good in possession that I never had a chance to counter, however, switching to an 'attacking mentality' meant I lost position more, and therefore, countered more, as the opponent also had more chances..

I'm not asking for an in depth analysis of my tactics, line-up, formation etc, so there really is no need to be so horrible about it, I was merely asking for guidelines

[Rocka74]

Very good post here about different tactical setups and shouts: http://www.mypassion4footballmanager.com/2013/11/football-manager-tactics-guide-playing-styles.html

[allyc31]

Seems to be a lot of agro on this thread for little reason...

Anyway, TC my thoughts on Counter attacking would be setting the team to counter (obviously), 4-4-2, narrow width, exploit flanks, both wingers on attack with drill crosses, a ball playing defender and a DLP on def as your holding mid. Maybe pairing him with a B2B.

Of course, this could be wrong but I've had success with the above previously.

[itsallaboutthierry]

I've had some nice counter attacking football recently with a Newcastle save. The keys to the tactic actually counter attacking seem to be (for me):

Pass into space and higher tempo shouts

Plenty of players on attacking mentalities, so that they're looking to play the ball forward and actually get themselves into the attack phase quickly

Hope they help

[phnompenhandy]

I wouldn't have a fluid philosophy. With a rigid philosophy your wingers if set with attacking roles will attack as soon as the ball is delivered to them. You use fluid when you want to trust the players to do their own thing and ignore your instructions.

[Marsupian]

I agree with phnompenhandy, setting your philosophy to fluid brings your attacking players further back to help defend, make them less attacking minded in general and more likely to ignore your instructions by giving them more creative freedom. A balanced or rigid philosophy is more suited to playing on the counter in my opinion. Creating more space between the lines and having more people forward in the transition phase is really helpful when playing on the counter.

[itsallaboutthierry]

I think the philosophy debate depends on the formation. I'm counter attacking very nicely on a fluid philosophy, but I have a very 'defensive' formation. I play:

-------------SW(d)---------------

CWB(a)---DC(d)---DC(d)---CWB(a)

--------------DM(d)--------------

------CM(a)---AP(s)---CM(a)-----

----------------------------------

---------------AF(a)-------------

So positionally, the inclination of the players to retreat behind the ball is enhanced by the fluid philosophy, but the attacking mentalities of the complete wing backs and central minds means they flood forward at speed once the ball is won.

If I had more support mentalities throughout the team with this formation and a fluid philosophy though I agree - I'd not counter attack very well at all.

[wwfan]

I'd query whether counter and 4-2-4 could be mutually compatible. Counter requires players breaking from deep. A 4-2-4 doesn't have enough deep players for countering to be a viable mentality.

[davidmn27]

why does fluid enhance players inclination to retreat behind the ball?

[alinp]

why does fluid enhance players inclination to retreat behind the ball?

I don't think it's specifically that, just that the more Fluid your team are the more you are basically saying to them "do what you think best" - so if they see a need to defend, they defend and likewise, if they see a need to support the attack, they do that. HTH

[alinp]

With regard to the OP... I don't think it's been clearly established whether you want a tactic that defends deep and then counters (Hodgeson-esque), or aims to win the ball high and swiftly capitalise (Rafa-style (IMO))?

[difran8]

I think this goes down as another TC-human player lost in translation case. Quick tempo - Direct passing are correct. What you saw with the attacking mentality is, i believe, what counter is supposed to do when the ball is won in your half, i.e. a burst of high mentality-tempo-passing to catch the opposition disorganized. For this to succeed, you need enough space to exploit, so, a few deep players making runs, and a quite restricted amount of creative freedom. The effect of this setting is one of the great mysteries of the game, but, as far as i have observed, it makes players take their time to consider some possible flamboyant options. In your case you need not the wonderful unexpected pass, but the quick straightforward option. You also need an opponent willing to attack and leave his area

Or Maybe you could go down a different path and even use attacking strategy with defensive shouts

[BenSammy]

Okay, thanks to everyone that has chimed in with advice so far..

I actually abandoned counter attacking with my Vitesse team, and went with TM tactics, which appears to be the only thing I can make work..

However, I've started a Lazio save, and currently have a very technically gifted team, especially in the final third.

I read in the learning to play thread that with a good technical team it's often best to sit deep and then counter at pace..I'm wondering if this is still true..

With such a team, what kind of formation am I looking to employ? 2 Strikers seem to be pointless these days and lazio aren't exactly deep in this department, we have the legenday Miroslave Klose and that's about it..

Are centre midfielders or advanced midfielders more appropriate? Same for Wingers?