The Guardiola pressing game - And how to press the same way on FM14

[Mrmuto]

What about the individual instructions?

close down more, you use this instruction?

[cmonreds]

I just got the Jed Davies book and I'm reading it. So far a lot of things I already knew....about Barca and Ajax at least.

Me as well. Just glanced at the e-book version. Waiting for the paperback version to arrive. First impression is good

[cmonreds]

What about the individual instructions?

close down more, you use this instruction?

I have used them for my fullbacks against formation with ML/MR. Also I have given the MC`s increased closing down against 4-2(DM)-3-1 deep when their defensive midfielders were passing in behind my DL. With my player roles/instructions it is just the central defenders, fullbacks and central midfielders that can be given increased closing down instructions. If I am to give either of them this, I must have a plan for why this is given.

[Mrmuto]

I have used them for my fullbacks against formation with ML/MR. Also I have given the MC`s increased closing down against 4-2(DM)-3-1 deep when their defensive midfielders were passing in behind my DL. With my player roles/instructions it is just the central defenders, fullbacks and central midfielders that can be given increased closing down instructions. If I am to give either of them this, I must have a plan for why this is given.

So usually in most of matches u dont use it?

what about tackle harder?

[petergoddard]

Me as well. Just glanced at the e-book version. Waiting for the paperback version to arrive. First impression is good

Can you check my set up at the end of the 1st page ?

Also thought something: when Barcelona lost possession, alongside with a strong pressing they would make the opponent to play into periphery. This would make opponent to stretch width opening space at the middle. To do so my midfielders are man marking the opponent's midfielders, without an open player to receive the ball they will have to make a pass into periphery.

[yonko]

Can you check my set up at the end of the 1st page ?

Also thought something: when Barcelona lost possession, alongside with a strong pressing they would make the opponent to play into periphery. This would make opponent to stretch width opening space at the middle. To do so my midfielders are man marking the opponent's midfielders, without an open player to receive the ball they will have to make a pass into periphery.

They didn't force the opposition to play to the periphery. They force the opposition to play predictably - sometimes it was to the periphery, other times it wasn't.

Another important part (and this is in Jed's book also) is the fact that Barca were/are set up in their possession phase to quickly transition into pressing mode (the 6 seconds rule and triggers).

[petergoddard]

They didn't force the opposition to play to the periphery. They force the opposition to play predictably - sometimes it was to the periphery, other times it wasn't.

Another important part (and this is in Jed's book also) is the fact that Barca were/are set up in their possession phase to quickly transition into pressing mode (the 6 seconds rule and triggers).

Hey yonko, would you also check my set up at the end of the 1st page ??? I would like your opinion also.

Well, that 6 second rule is impossible to replicate :-)

I have just played the 1st leg of the semi-finals of Champions League against Barcelona, although the result was FC Porto 1 Barcelona 1 until 75 minutes I was controling the match, leading 1-0 with 65% possession. I think these are great numbers considering I'm FC Porto... then Fernando was sent off and they scored.

[yonko]

Hey yonko, would you also check my set up at the end of the 1st page ??? I would like your opinion also.

Well, that 6 second rule is impossible to replicate :-)

I have just played the 1st leg of the semi-finals of Champions League against Barcelona, although the result was FC Porto 1 Barcelona 1 until 75 minutes I was controling the match, leading 1-0 with 65% possession. I think these are great numbers considering I'm FC Porto... then Fernando was sent off and they scored.

The 6 second rule might be impossible to replicate on FM but the immediate pressure after possession is possible. Especially the players being close together and ready to transition quickly.

As for my opinion regarding your set up, you should already know. But I will repeat again.....

well, right now i'm going with

right WB (attack) - shorter passing, cross more often, cross from deep, get further forward, close down more

right CD (block) - shorter passing

left CD (cover) - shorter passing

left WB (support) - shorter passing, cross more often, cross from deep, close down more

HB - shorter passing

right DLP (support) - run wide with ball, close down more

left AP (attack) - run wide with ball, close down more

right IF (support) - shoot less often, sit narrower, roam from position, close down more

left IF (attack) - shoot less often, get further forward, stay wider, roam from position, close down more

AF (attack) - shoot less often, shorter passing, close down more

Strategy / Philo: attacking / very fluid

TI: retain possesion, shorter passing, pass into space, work ball into box, play through defence, drill crosses, much higher defence line, roam from positions, hassle opponents, get stuck, tighter marking, more expressive.

Main ideas: right IF cuts inside occupying the space left from the DLP and openning space for my right WB; my left IF stays wider to allow space to my AP and also he gets further forward to be more close to my AF. Both left IF and AP are supported by my left WB

Finally, there are lots and lots of ppm's

Review: possession is very good (65-70, sometimes more), 15-25 shots per game, 5-10 chances

Problems:

a) I have been through a few issues with my AF but people have been complaining and I don't know if there is some kind of bug / problems

b) match results are always 2-0, 3-1, 3-0 and a lot of goals are from corners

c) although a good amount of shots, very few are on target... long shots are also very few.

For start I would set up Control/Fluid rather than Attack/Very Fluid. I don't see the point of setting one FB as WB(A) and the other as WB(S) in Fluid/Very Fluid style - both will be equally attacking. If you want to make one of them more attacking and the other more conservative then set one of them as FB(S) and instruct the WB(A) to get further forward. I personally prefer symmetry with my FBs and set up both as equally attacking, especially if using a HB.

Speaking of the HB, I would add shoot less often to his instructions. I like the use of DLP(S) + AP(A) in the CM positions. But why run wide with the ball?

I prefer my Inside Forwards to not roam from their positions, because often I find them wide/deeper than I would want to. I would not use AF for the ST position either. I remember suggesting to you before to use either DLF(S) or F9. You could even try CF(S).

As far as Team instructions, I like most of the ones you're using. I would remove roam from positions (who is this effecting anyway - I'm still unclear on that and until then I'm not using it), you don't need tighter marking since already using hassle opponents and I would remove more expressive.

[petergoddard]

The 6 second rule might be impossible to replicate on FM but the immediate pressure after possession is possible. Especially the players being close together and ready to transition quickly.

As for my opinion regarding your set up, you should already know. But I will repeat again.....

For start I would set up Control/Fluid rather than Attack/Very Fluid. I don't see the point of setting one FB as WB(A) and the other as WB(S) in Fluid/Very Fluid style - both will be equally attacking. If you want to make one of them more attacking and the other more conservative then set one of them as FB(S) and instruct the WB(A) to get further forward. I personally prefer symmetry with my FBs and set up both as equally attacking, especially if using a HB.

Speaking of the HB, I would add shoot less often to his instructions. I like the use of DLP(S) + AP(A) in the CM positions. But why run wide with the ball?

I prefer my Inside Forwards to not roam from their positions, because often I find them wide/deeper than I would want to. I would not use AF for the ST position either. I remember suggesting to you before to use either DLF(S) or F9. You could even try CF(S).

As far as Team instructions, I like most of the ones you're using. I would remove roam from positions (who is this effecting anyway - I'm still unclear on that and until then I'm not using it), you don't need tighter marking since already using hassle opponents and I would remove more expressive.

That immediate pressure increases a lot with mark tighter ppm :-)

Thanks for your feedback.

I have not been able to set properly a Control strategy, but this Attack one has been working well.

As for the WB's you are right, both would be attacking, but the right one gets further forward and often overlaps his IF; my left WB altough he's attacking he does not (care to notice instructions on both WB and IF)

The DLP and the AP run wide because I want them to:

a) seek open spaces

b) stretch in width the opponent team, allowing penetration from the WB's and IF's

c) the AP also overlaps the left IF since this one cuts inside and the AP goes wider

I have tried several positions to the position 9, F9, DLF, CF, since I have set a AF with an IF supporting he has been scoring a lot more

Finally the expressive instruction is linked to ppm's: if I want my players to be more expressive this means they will make more their own decisions, so I want them to decide according their preferences... their ppm's. And of course, the ppm's are all suited for possession.

[cmonreds]

So usually in most of matches u dont use it?

what about tackle harder?

Tackle harder I haven`t used. IRL Barcelona don`t tackle hard/dives into tackles. It is important to stay on feet when trying to win the ball back. A player must be able to contribute in continuing closing down/cutting passing angles/marking players as well as passing the ball/become a part of a triangle/rhombus formation as soon as possible when the ball is won back. All of this is best acchieved by staying on their feets. How FM14 replicates this I am not sure of yet. I have no option of tackling in use, interpreting this to work like mixed tackling choosed.

There will be matches I don`t use increased closing down for these players. I use it for them when this is a part of a plan. Such a plan can also be to mark their left CD and then increase CD for my right MC and fullback to win the ball back in this area.

I will try to post so the different ways I am using CD will be easy to get a overview of. As well as looking into passing patterns. But I am still testing and beeing christmas I don`t make a lot of progess.

[petergoddard]

Tackle harder I haven`t used. IRL Barcelona don`t tackle hard/dives into tackles. It is important to stay on feet when trying to win the ball back. A player must be able to contribute in continuing closing down/cutting passing angles/marking players as well as passing the ball/become a part of a triangle/rhombus formation as soon as possible when the ball is won back. All of this is best acchieved by staying on their feets. How FM14 replicates this I am not sure of yet. I have no option of tackling in use, interpreting this to work like mixed tackling choosed.

There will be matches I don`t use increased closing down for these players. I use it for them when this is a part of a plan. Such a plan can also be to mark their left CD and then increase CD for my right MC and fullback to win the ball back in this area.

I will try to post so the different ways I am using CD will be easy to get a overview of. As well as looking into passing patterns. But I am still testing and beeing christmas I don`t make a lot of progess.

I left you my team set for your analysis. Much appreciate your opinion :-)

[cmonreds]

well, right now i'm going with

right WB (attack) - shorter passing, cross more often, cross from deep, get further forward, close down more

right CD (block) - shorter passing

left CD (cover) - shorter passing

left WB (support) - shorter passing, cross more often, cross from deep, close down more

HB - shorter passing

right DLP (support) - run wide with ball, close down more

left AP (attack) - run wide with ball, close down more

right IF (support) - shoot less often, sit narrower, roam from position, close down more

left IF (attack) - shoot less often, get further forward, stay wider, roam from position, close down more

AF (attack) - shoot less often, shorter passing, close down more

Strategy / Philo: attacking / very fluid

TI: retain possesion, shorter passing, pass into space, work ball into box, play through defence, drill crosses, much higher defence line, roam from positions, hassle opponents, get stuck, tighter marking, more expressive.

Main ideas: right IF cuts inside occupying the space left from the DLP and openning space for my right WB; my left IF stays wider to allow space to my AP and also he gets further forward to be more close to my AF. Both left IF and AP are supported by my left WB

Finally, there are lots and lots of ppm's

Review: possession is very good (65-70, sometimes more), 15-25 shots per game, 5-10 chances

Problems:

a) I have been through a few issues with my AF but people have been complaining and I don't know if there is some kind of bug / problems

b) match results are always 2-0, 3-1, 3-0 and a lot of goals are from corners

c) although a good amount of shots, very few are on target... long shots are also very few.

You have moved away from the Messi role as the F9 from the latter years and instead try to replicate the role he had in the beginning as creative inside forward positioned on the right wing. Then correctly you have given a different role to the striker (a role to threaten the space behind the opposition defenders), your AMR can play through passes into the space behind the defenders for the striker to run onto. This is a good combo I have used a lot before. Also your right WB is able to support this set-up by adding the necessary width on your right side of the pitch.

Also I like the way your AP could be set up with your left IF and your AF. He could have good passing alternatives this way and the right players in these three positions could be lethal. But I would not give run wide with ball instructions for my two central midfielders. This will reduce your compactness in the middle of the field, the whole system is based upon this. The way I see it, this would weaken your team in the four different phases of play.

Also be careful about the balance for your left side of the pitch. Parts of your set-up is classical Barca under Guardiola, from the right WB, DLP, AP and left IF. This set-up they used in a system which could be described as an three-man defence system (against two pure opposition strikers). Where the left fullback would act more as an third defender. So maybe give him a defend role to maintain the balance down this side. Also your HB could be given defensive midfield role with this set-up. He might be able to press more higher up the pitch, also closing down threats moving into your left side of the pitch earlier on.

Crossing instructions I mainly give with the TI to drill crosses. The only crossing-instructions added would be to cross from byline.

Mainly I have given feed-back on the thoughts I believe lies behind your set-up and general ideas about tactics. Regarding instructions I am little more reluctant to comment, the one mentioned are the ones I feel sure about. Keep ut the good work

[petergoddard]

You have moved away from the Messi role as the F9 from the latter years and instead try to replicate the role he had in the beginning as creative inside forward positioned on the right wing. Then correctly you have given a different role to the striker (a role to threaten the space behind the opposition defenders), your AMR can play through passes into the space behind the defenders for the striker to run onto. This is a good combo I have used a lot before. Also your right WB is able to support this set-up by adding the necessary width on your right side of the pitch.

Also I like the way your AP could be set up with your left IF and your AF. He could have good passing alternatives this way and the right players in these three positions could be lethal. But I would not give run wide with ball instructions for my two central midfielders. This will reduce your compactness in the middle of the field, the whole system is based upon this. The way I see it, this would weaken your team in the four different phases of play.

Also be careful about the balance for your left side of the pitch. Parts of your set-up is classical Barca under Guardiola, from the right WB, DLP, AP and left IF. This set-up they used in a system which could be described as an three-man defence system (against two pure opposition strikers). Where the left fullback would act more as an third defender. So maybe give him a defend role to maintain the balance down this side. Also your HB could be given defensive midfield role with this set-up. He might be able to press more higher up the pitch, also closing down threats moving into your left side of the pitch earlier on.

Crossing instructions I mainly give with the TI to drill crosses. The only crossing-instructions added would be to cross from byline.

Mainly I have given feed-back on the thoughts I believe lies behind your set-up and general ideas about tactics. Regarding instructions I am little more reluctant to comment, the one mentioned are the ones I feel sure about. Keep ut the good work

Thanks, always important to have people thoughts and ideas to improve our selves :-)

You're right ! One of main doubts has been the left flank between giving a defensive or a supporting duty to the WB. I maybe suffering a little bit because of the supporting duty, but the idea is my HB acts like the third defender although he will need a ppm to always stays back.

What I have come up with is my playmakers and the HB are man marking right now. Dangerous ? Maybe, but I went against Barcelona like this in semi-final and had 66% possession until the 75 minute... then I had a sent off.

PPM's also have a vital role: all players must mark tighter, defenders and forwards must have short and simple passing (except the playmakers, I want these to have all the passing options possible), the DLP and position 9 drops deeper, the AP gets forward whenever possible and both moving into channels, players must look for passing instead of goal, IF's cutting inside, playing one-twos... all this takes a lot of time to set.

[petergoddard]

Forgot to say that the real danger I have experienced is when loosing possession due to a wrong pass because since my HB doesn't have the stay back ppm he goes a little further forward and my 2 DC's are wider and suddenly there's a lot of space for the opponent.

[gerrardsrightfoot]

Impressive tactic this OP. Haven't read your every post in here in great detail, but just implementing the tactical suggestions from the first post has improved my pretty average England side a heck of a lot. Played around 10 or so games with it now, dominating every game in terms of chances but not so much in terms of possession, though I suspect that may be down to the fact that I've got a few injuries and England don't have the best talent pool to choose from. My main worry is at CDM and CB as Phil Jones has a lengthy injury and Carrick is the only other player I have that is comfortable at DM, and the CBs for England don't have much pace. The likes of Rooney, Walcott, Wilshere and in particular Baines all seem very suited to the system though.

The one game I lost was a friendly against Brazil which didn't come as much of a surprise to me considering the quality in that 11. Found it difficult to force them to play into my hands considering all defensive players are comfortable on the ball and the pressing was pretty ineffective as they just passed it and moved around my players. Will definitely stick with this tactic though and see how I can attempt to improve it against the better sides.

[jean.lamy84]

I've wait a long time before posting in this thread. First I was not sure I can bring something interesting in the "Barça-Possession" discussion (even if this thread is more focusing on how to defend and press in this system, I consider it as a good thread to discuss and share ideas on barça system in general but maybe I'm wrong...). Second, I have not managed yet to find a way to play like this in FM2014.

As it has already been saided, I will be satisfied when in most of games I will have more than 70% possession (for some big games, away from home, I can accept 55 to 60%).

I would like to add a requirement regarding passing : I want my 3 midfielders get more than 100 passes and a ratio of 85 to more than 90% for the whole team.

So firstable, thanks for making this thread. It has helped me in various way on how to try to achieve my goal.

Regarding possession. All is about keeping possession and win possession back.

Winning possession back (also knowned as 6, or 5 second rules).

This article and this one contains many useful information to help work on winning possession.

Keeping possession

Everything has been saided and it is not the hardest part of this tactic. I've found this article very interesting as a starting point. This link helps me, especially on the choice of PPM's.

By looking at stats on http://www.whoscored.com (I watch nearly all barcelona matches but I've wanted to go deeper in their playing style and I find this site very interesting for that) we can see that most passes are short passes (not a surprise!). But I can see other particularities :

- very few through passes. Logicial for a patient system. "Fewer risky passes" for players and no "pass into space" for team can be interesting. It will also I think increase the number of passes.

- some long balls from piqué/mascherano and busquets. "Ball playing defender" and "Regista" seems for me the best role for this.

Playing (and attacking style)

Attacking is another hard part. I've noticed many crosses from the 2 fullbacks. "Look for overlap" coupled with "complete wingback/inside forward" is my choice.

I've also noticed some player leaving their initial position (Messi, Iniesta, Xavi, Fabregas) to create more opportunities and movement. "Roam from position" is here a good solution. But it must not be used with "passe into space" in my mind.

Despite all my efforts in reaching my goals (possesion and passes) I've not entirely satisfied :

- I only get more than 70% percent of possession against very poor team (friendly and agains low league team).

- I rarely have my midfield trio with more than 100 passes.

I've also some points to analyse/check :

- is it a good thing to have only 2 attacks duties (complete wingback)?

- as playing in very fluid system, is it better to select more generic roles instead of specialist roles? In fact specialist roles are just roles with some predefined instructions don't you think?

- both central midfield are roaming in real life, even if Xavi is less roaming than iniesta. I must give it a try.

- is it necessary to specify pressing and marking OI if I've already checked "Hassle opponents" and "Mark tighter" in team and/or player instructions?

- useful PPM's : "pass rather than shoot" can be a good one in addition to those listed here

- are rules good for fluidity and roles/duties? I agree on duties but not on roles.

That's pretty all. And to conclude, sorry for this bad english.

[petergoddard]

I've wait a long time before posting in this thread. First I was not sure I can bring something interesting in the "Barça-Possession" discussion (even if this thread is more focusing on how to defend and press in this system, I consider it as a good thread to discuss and share ideas on barça system in general but maybe I'm wrong...). Second, I have not managed yet to find a way to play like this in FM2014.

As it has already been saided, I will be satisfied when in most of games I will have more than 70% possession (for some big games, away from home, I can accept 55 to 60%).

I would like to add a requirement regarding passing : I want my 3 midfielders get more than 100 passes and a ratio of 85 to more than 90% for the whole team.

So firstable, thanks for making this thread. It has helped me in various way on how to try to achieve my goal.

Regarding possession. All is about keeping possession and win possession back.

Winning possession back (also knowned as 6, or 5 second rules).

This article and this one contains many useful information to help work on winning possession.

Keeping possession

Everything has been saided and it is not the hardest part of this tactic. I've found this article very interesting as a starting point. This link helps me, especially on the choice of PPM's.

By looking at stats on http://www.whoscored.com (I watch nearly all barcelona matches but I've wanted to go deeper in their playing style and I find this site very interesting for that) we can see that most passes are short passes (not a surprise!). But I can see other particularities :

- very few through passes. Logicial for a patient system. "Fewer risky passes" for players and no "pass into space" for team can be interesting. It will also I think increase the number of passes.

- some long balls from piqué/mascherano and busquets. "Ball playing defender" and "Regista" seems for me the best role for this.

Playing (and attacking style)

Attacking is another hard part. I've noticed many crosses from the 2 fullbacks. "Look for overlap" coupled with "complete wingback/inside forward" is my choice.

I've also noticed some player leaving their initial position (Messi, Iniesta, Xavi, Fabregas) to create more opportunities and movement. "Roam from position" is here a good solution. But it must not be used with "passe into space" in my mind.

Despite all my efforts in reaching my goals (possesion and passes) I've not entirely satisfied :

- I only get more than 70% percent of possession against very poor team (friendly and agains low league team).

- I rarely have my midfield trio with more than 100 passes.

I've also some points to analyse/check :

- is it a good thing to have only 2 attacks duties (complete wingback)?

- as playing in very fluid system, is it better to select more generic roles instead of specialist roles? In fact specialist roles are just roles with some predefined instructions don't you think?

- both central midfield are roaming in real life, even if Xavi is less roaming than iniesta. I must give it a try.

- is it necessary to specify pressing and marking OI if I've already checked "Hassle opponents" and "Mark tighter" in team and/or player instructions?

- useful PPM's : "pass rather than shoot" can be a good one in addition to those listed here

- are rules good for fluidity and roles/duties? I agree on duties but not on roles.

That's pretty all. And to conclude, sorry for this bad english.

It's impossible to typify a Barcelona style because over the years the style has evolved, so its most useful to be specific about what barcelona are you talking about. Even during Pep's period as manager the style was upgrade, starting as 433 then through a 343 (although the tactical design was still a 433). Nevertheless there are specifc details to assign several versions of Barcelona during this years. For instance, with Martino, Xavi does not seem acting like a DLP because Martino wants him high in the pitch.

Those are very great links

[yonko]

The peak of the style was during 2010/11 season IMO. That was the best Barca.

[jean.lamy84]

It's impossible to typify a Barcelona style because over the years the style has evolved, so its most useful to be specific about what barcelona are you talking about. Even during Pep's period as manager the style was upgrade, starting as 433 then through a 343 (although the tactical design was still a 433). Nevertheless there are specifc details to assign several versions of Barcelona during this years. For instance, with Martino, Xavi does not seem acting like a DLP because Martino wants him high in the pitch.

Those are very great links

I don't fully agree with that. For me Barcelona style is always the same regarding possession/win back possession/passing. The only thing that has evolved has the players : some of them get older, some of them are newer, some of them get better. Xavi cannot play as he played 4 years ago. Busquet is better than 4 years ago and he's now the most important player of the midfield (in my mind). Alba is not the same type of player than Abidal.

For me the ideas are the same. They've just evolved.

I think we must also take in account on how they adjust their formation/style depending on the opponent. For example, in some match they are focusing their play on the middle (perhaps against formation with less midfield players or poor midfield) and some times they play in both wing or midfield (but it seems that it's always Busquet/Xavi the base players).

Nevermind, I keep my goal : +70% possession and more passes. If someone managed to do this, share your ideas and tips.

[Jonny2J]

Thanks, always important to have people thoughts and ideas to improve our selves :-)

You're right ! One of main doubts has been the left flank between giving a defensive or a supporting duty to the WB. I maybe suffering a little bit because of the supporting duty, but the idea is my HB acts like the third defender although he will need a ppm to always stays back.

What I have come up with is my playmakers and the HB are man marking right now. Dangerous ? Maybe, but I went against Barcelona like this in semi-final and had 66% possession until the 75 minute... then I had a sent off.

PPM's also have a vital role: all players must mark tighter, defenders and forwards must have short and simple passing (except the playmakers, I want these to have all the passing options possible), the DLP and position 9 drops deeper, the AP gets forward whenever possible and both moving into channels, players must look for passing instead of goal, IF's cutting inside, playing one-twos... all this takes a lot of time to set.

How do you find your right hand side when attacking? Do you think the attack role that you have the full-back playing makes up for the support role from the IF and DLP? Do teams try and just nullify the left hand side leaving you trying to do more on the right?

[petergoddard]

I don't fully agree with that. For me Barcelona style is always the same regarding possession/win back possession/passing. The only thing that has evolved has the players : some of them get older, some of them are newer, some of them get better. Xavi cannot play as he played 4 years ago. Busquet is better than 4 years ago and he's now the most important player of the midfield (in my mind). Alba is not the same type of player than Abidal.

For me the ideas are the same. They've just evolved.

I think we must also take in account on how they adjust their formation/style depending on the opponent. For example, in some match they are focusing their play on the middle (perhaps against formation with less midfield players or poor midfield) and some times they play in both wing or midfield (but it seems that it's always Busquet/Xavi the base players).

Nevermind, I keep my goal : +70% possession and more passes. If someone managed to do this, share your ideas and tips.

Well, but it hasn't been the same :-) you have one Barcelona on the 1st season with Guardiola, a different one with the 2nd season, another one with Villanova, another with Jordi Roura (a terrible one by the way), and this and also different with Martino. In global terms or in the general the philosophy would be the same, but all of these has several differences even when we think about the 2 Pep's seasons (taking in consideration this thread). Possession, sure, always present, its like their dna.

If you would mind, I have posted in this thread at the ending of page 1 my complete tactical set so it it would be nice to share those tips and ideas :-)

[petergoddard]

How do you find your right hand side when attacking? Do you think the attack role that you have the full-back playing makes up for the support role from the IF and DLP? Do teams try and just nullify the left hand side leaving you trying to do more on the right?

well, you have to take in account that I'm not managing Barcelona but FC Porto (a lot weaker than Barcelona, but still a very strong team in Europe and at the top of the eat chain in Portugal). What I have been able to find is that the team is well balanced at both sides. The problems I have described have been solved mostly because of the ppm's my players already have. The main problem right now is at the middle: playing with the HB makes my CD's stay wider and although this as several advantages, there is a slight problem when my DLP or my AP looses the ball at the centre because there is too much space between my HB and CD's that can lead to fast counter-attacks. I think one way to fix this would be with a ppm to my CD's and HB to always stay back but this ppm can't be set by training, only by tutoring (or cheating with the game editor ); another way could be through changing the philosophy but this would have consequences in all aspects of my playing, so its not a possibility; the third way I'm considering is to find a solution for these 3 positions not to hassle and close down so much.... when playing against opponents that uses a 4231, I usually change my HB to DM (defend)

To be more specific regarding your questions, I think both my right and left sides are able to set real nice triangles: the DLP acts like a support to both rigth WB and right IF, with the right IF occupying the space free by the DLP; my left WB acts like a support to the AP and left IF, this one cutting inside from wider areas and getting further to leave space for the AP. I would like my AP to overlap more with the left IF.

These are little details that need improvement and I would like very much to collect ideas and tips. Still I'm very happy with the style of play during 1st season: possession was around 68-75%, won everything in portuguese competitions (exception for the cup that I lost the final) and I achieved the Champions League semi-finals loosing to Barcelona, but I had a player sent-off at home in the 1st leg (when I was winning 1-0, final result 1-1) and two players sent-off in 5 five minutes in the 2nd leg at Camp Nou (when I was also winning 1-0, final result 3-1) and even with 10 players in the 1st leg I was able to have 62% possession. Hard enough to play against them with 11 players, imagine with 10 and 9 :-)

[jean.lamy84]

well, right now i'm going with

right WB (attack) - shorter passing, cross more often, cross from deep, get further forward, close down more

right CD (block) - shorter passing

left CD (cover) - shorter passing

left WB (support) - shorter passing, cross more often, cross from deep, close down more

HB - shorter passing

right DLP (support) - run wide with ball, close down more

left AP (attack) - run wide with ball, close down more

right IF (support) - shoot less often, sit narrower, roam from position, close down more

left IF (attack) - shoot less often, get further forward, stay wider, roam from position, close down more

AF (attack) - shoot less often, shorter passing, close down more

Strategy / Philo: attacking / very fluid

TI: retain possesion, shorter passing, pass into space, work ball into box, play through defence, drill crosses, much higher defence line, roam from positions, hassle opponents, get stuck, tighter marking, more expressive.

Main ideas: right IF cuts inside occupying the space left from the DLP and openning space for my right WB; my left IF stays wider to allow space to my AP and also he gets further forward to be more close to my AF. Both left IF and AP are supported by my left WB

Finally, there are lots and lots of ppm's

Review: possession is very good (65-70, sometimes more), 15-25 shots per game, 5-10 chances

Problems:

a) I have been through a few issues with my AF but people have been complaining and I don't know if there is some kind of bug / problems

b) match results are always 2-0, 3-1, 3-0 and a lot of goals are from corners

c) although a good amount of shots, very few are on target... long shots are also very few.

I'm replying to this one in order to share my settings who are basically the same.

GB : Sweeper keeper / defend : throw to defenders.

DCR : Ball playing defender : shorter passing, less risky passes, mark tighter (BPD because having such a player with good passing and creativity, like Piqué for example).

DCL : Central defender/ defend : shorter passing, mark tighter.

DR/DL : Complete wingback/attack : shorter passing, less risky pass, run with ball, mark tighter, stay wider

MDC : Regista or Anchor man or Half back (depending on opposition mainly) : shorter passing, less risky pass, shoot less often, stay back, mark tighter.

MCR/MCL : Box to box/support : shorter passing, less risky pass, mark tighter. One with roam from position, one with go forward.

IFR / IFL : Inside forward / support : shorter passing, less risky pass, mark tighter. one of them with go forward.

BC : F9 / support : shorter passing, mark tighter, roam from position.

Some notes / questions :

- I set "less risky passes" in order to try to replicate the very cautious play of barça.

- I set BPD and Regista in order to try to replicate the rare long balls coming from defenders. Not sure about Regista role.

- I'm wondering if shorter passing / tight marking / roam from position have an effect if we set it both from TI and PI.

- I don't use pass into space because of roam from position. Not compatible in my mind. I think barça is playing to feet with very rarely through balls.

- I don't use "More expressive" TI because we are already in a very fluid system.

- I use "look for overlap" and it seems to works well. It's the reason I do not put any crosses instructions on my fullbacks.

- I'm wondering what can be the effects of "More pressing" PI regarding "Hassle opponents". In a more extensive way, what are the impacts on settings both TI and PI (another example : Run at defense and dribble more). I think there are some good information here but have'nt had any time to go deeper in it.

- I'm wondering on roles and duties in a very fluid system and the use of specialists roles. My first idea was to use 2 DLP but I've read that it is not a good idea to have many specialist roles in very fluid system.

- Regarding width and play focus, I adapt it to the opposition but the main idea is to focus in the middle by playing narrower. If I consider that I'm facing a strong midfield with poorer wingers/fullbacks, I will focus on flanks. Maybe play wider if I'm facing a deep and compact defensive team in a small pitch.

You can see, I'm wondering a lot

[petergoddard]

I'm replying to this one in order to share my settings who are basically the same.

GB : Sweeper keeper / defend : throw to defenders.

DCR : Ball playing defender : shorter passing, less risky passes, mark tighter (BPD because having such a player with good passing and creativity, like Piqué for example).

DCL : Central defender/ defend : shorter passing, mark tighter.

DR/DL : Complete wingback/attack : shorter passing, less risky pass, run with ball, mark tighter, stay wider

MDC : Regista or Anchor man or Half back (depending on opposition mainly) : shorter passing, less risky pass, shoot less often, stay back, mark tighter.

MCR/MCL : Box to box/support : shorter passing, less risky pass, mark tighter. One with roam from position, one with go forward.

IFR / IFL : Inside forward / support : shorter passing, less risky pass, mark tighter. one of them with go forward.

BC : F9 / support : shorter passing, mark tighter, roam from position.

Some notes / questions :

- I set "less risky passes" in order to try to replicate the very cautious play of barça.

- I set BPD and Regista in order to try to replicate the rare long balls coming from defenders. Not sure about Regista role.

- I'm wondering if shorter passing / tight marking / roam from position have an effect if we set it both from TI and PI.

- I don't use pass into space because of roam from position. Not compatible in my mind. I think barça is playing to feet with very rarely through balls.

- I don't use "More expressive" TI because we are already in a very fluid system.

- I use "look for overlap" and it seems to works well. It's the reason I do not put any crosses instructions on my fullbacks.

- I'm wondering what can be the effects of "More pressing" PI regarding "Hassle opponents". In a more extensive way, what are the impacts on settings both TI and PI (another example : Run at defense and dribble more). I think there are some good information here but have'nt had any time to go deeper in it.

- I'm wondering on roles and duties in a very fluid system and the use of specialists roles. My first idea was to use 2 DLP but I've read that it is not a good idea to have many specialist roles in very fluid system.

- Regarding width and play focus, I adapt it to the opposition but the main idea is to focus in the middle by playing narrower. If I consider that I'm facing a strong midfield with poorer wingers/fullbacks, I will focus on flanks. Maybe play wider if I'm facing a deep and compact defensive team in a small pitch.

You can see, I'm wondering a lot

As for the less / more risky passes I have set for more because of the retain possession instruction, although I use a version without less or more risky passes.

The BPD is player who naturally will try more long passes, so if setting less risky passes you might as well change his role.

I was never able to look at Busquets as regista (its a role perfectly suited for Andrea Pirlo and looking at both they are very different players) but before fm14 more like an Anchor or a DM (def). Since Barcelona has used a 433 making act like a 343, I thought the HB is perfect to achive this.

As for TI and PI, I think PI has priority over TI.

Barcelona apart, I don't think pass into space is incompatible with roam, on the contrary you need to tell a player to roam in order for him to receive a pass either to feet or into space. If thinking in Barcelona, well, then you need a lot of movement and the roam is in this logic.

The more expressive instructions has to do with ppm's and the need for motivating players in using it.

You are right as for the specialist roles in a very fluid philosophy, but as for me I haven't been able to find a role that links defense / transitition and transition / attack as the two play-makers, DLP and AP, both link very well between each other and with the other players.

Finally, I like my players to have the most possible options when playing, using focus in the middle is some how limiting their options of passing and of exploration of opponents weaknesses.

[jean.lamy84]

As for the less / more risky passes I have set for more because of the retain possession instruction, although I use a version without less or more risky passes.

The BPD is player who naturally will try more long passes, so if setting less risky passes you might as well change his role.

I was never able to look at Busquets as regista (its a role perfectly suited for Andrea Pirlo and looking at both they are very different players) but before fm14 more like an Anchor or a DM (def). Since Barcelona has used a 433 making act like a 343, I thought the HB is perfect to achive this.

As for TI and PI, I think PI has priority over TI.

Barcelona apart, I don't think pass into space is incompatible with roam, on the contrary you need to tell a player to roam in order for him to receive a pass either to feet or into space. If thinking in Barcelona, well, then you need a lot of movement and the roam is in this logic.

The more expressive instructions has to do with ppm's and the need for motivating players in using it.

You are right as for the specialist roles in a very fluid philosophy, but as for me I haven't been able to find a role that links defense / transitition and transition / attack as the two play-makers, DLP and AP, both link very well between each other and with the other players.

Finally, I like my players to have the most possible options when playing, using focus in the middle is some how limiting their options of passing and of exploration of opponents weaknesses.

For me the idea was to limit at max the trough balls. If you look at barcelona stats, you will see only 10 through balls for more than 700 passes. It's why I wanted to use this in order to also increase the passes to feet.

For long balls and roles. I've set BPD with less risky passes because in my experience the normal BPD tries too many risky passes and so make us loose possession. BPD with less risky passes is for me between a CD and a BPD.

I totally agree with you on Busquet roles. I think HB is perfect against 2 stricker or 1 stricker with an advanced midfielder or 2 inside forwards. But sometimes he stands to deep from the 2 MCS (perhaps it's because I play with 2 Box to Box instead of a DLP...)

Regarding PI and TI, I was wondering if setting for example "More pressing" as PI and "Hassle opponent" as TI is different than "Hassle opponent" TI only (and in extend if selecting "Press always" in OI, does it override PI).

For me "roam from position" is the base to create movements whereas "pass into spaces" will lead to too many through balls. There seems to be contrasting to me.

For "more expressive" and "very fluid" it's an interesting point of view.

[Coleman]

This is an excellent thread. I am trying to incorporate some of your ideas (particularly about mixing man coverage of specific players with my team zonal philosophy -- I'd forgotten about man-marking the best DC) with what I'm learning about Pep's 4-1-4-1 from Cleon's thread, and the new total football thread by Lord Dakier to create my own philosophy/style/tactic. It's early days, but all of these threads are really helping.

I think this one and Lord's should be stickied!

[jean.lamy84]

I think this one and Lord's should be stickied!

Hi, can you post a link for Lord thread?

[petergoddard]

For me the idea was to limit at max the trough balls. If you look at barcelona stats, you will see only 10 through balls for more than 700 passes. It's why I wanted to use this in order to also increase the passes to feet.

For long balls and roles. I've set BPD with less risky passes because in my experience the normal BPD tries too many risky passes and so make us loose possession. BPD with less risky passes is for me between a CD and a BPD.

I totally agree with you on Busquet roles. I think HB is perfect against 2 stricker or 1 stricker with an advanced midfielder or 2 inside forwards. But sometimes he stands to deep from the 2 MCS (perhaps it's because I play with 2 Box to Box instead of a DLP...)

Regarding PI and TI, I was wondering if setting for example "More pressing" as PI and "Hassle opponent" as TI is different than "Hassle opponent" TI only (and in extend if selecting "Press always" in OI, does it override PI).

For me "roam from position" is the base to create movements whereas "pass into spaces" will lead to too many through balls. There seems to be contrasting to me.

For "more expressive" and "very fluid" it's an interesting point of view.

That's why I'm using a 2nd version of my tactic with no "more pass into space" :-) and in this 2nd version I change the HB to a DM (defend). I find this 2nd version useful against teams playing a 4231, leaving less space for the opponent AM to explore. Just started a match for the portuguese supercup against Sporting CP (4231) and I started with the HB, it was a bad start leading to suffer a goal but after scoring they set their defence line deeper and I started to control the match. For the 2nd half I changed to the 2nd version with the DM, without passing into space but setting a higher intensity (I generally don't use this instruction) and we were able to turn from 0-1 to 3-1, possession was set at 65%. So as soon my position 6 (HB / DM) got closer to the DLP and my CD's stop sitting wider I got control of the match.

Not sure (at least I don't rebember) if TI, PI and OI priorities have been suficient discussed. I have read somewhere at this section that PI override TI but it would be most helpful for guys like RT or Cleon clarify this issue.

I have always look at ppm's as an essential part of what we want from our players no matter what style of football we want and mainly when giving them more CF. It's not an accident they are called Preferred Moves :-) they are simply movements of preference, so when setting a philosophy that enhances CF and ask players to be more expressive, you are motivating them to use their ppm's. If these ppm's are focused on a possession base, you can imagine what happens :-)

[Coleman]

Quote: Hi, can you post a link for Lord thread?

Sure!

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/368704-Is-Rinus-Micehels-1970-s-Ajax-system-possible-with-a-lower-league-club

[Mrmuto]

I'm replying to this one in order to share my settings who are basically the same.

GB : Sweeper keeper / defend : throw to defenders.

DCR : Ball playing defender : shorter passing, less risky passes, mark tighter (BPD because having such a player with good passing and creativity, like Piqué for example).

DCL : Central defender/ defend : shorter passing, mark tighter.

DR/DL : Complete wingback/attack : shorter passing, less risky pass, run with ball, mark tighter, stay wider

MDC : Regista or Anchor man or Half back (depending on opposition mainly) : shorter passing, less risky pass, shoot less often, stay back, mark tighter.

MCR/MCL : Box to box/support : shorter passing, less risky pass, mark tighter. One with roam from position, one with go forward.

IFR / IFL : Inside forward / support : shorter passing, less risky pass, mark tighter. one of them with go forward.

BC : F9 / support : shorter passing, mark tighter, roam from position.

Some notes / questions :

- I set "less risky passes" in order to try to replicate the very cautious play of barça.

- I set BPD and Regista in order to try to replicate the rare long balls coming from defenders. Not sure about Regista role.

- I'm wondering if shorter passing / tight marking / roam from position have an effect if we set it both from TI and PI.

- I don't use pass into space because of roam from position. Not compatible in my mind. I think barça is playing to feet with very rarely through balls.

- I don't use "More expressive" TI because we are already in a very fluid system.

- I use "look for overlap" and it seems to works well. It's the reason I do not put any crosses instructions on my fullbacks.

- I'm wondering what can be the effects of "More pressing" PI regarding "Hassle opponents". In a more extensive way, what are the impacts on settings both TI and PI (another example : Run at defense and dribble more). I think there are some good information here but have'nt had any time to go deeper in it.

- I'm wondering on roles and duties in a very fluid system and the use of specialists roles. My first idea was to use 2 DLP but I've read that it is not a good idea to have many specialist roles in very fluid system.

- Regarding width and play focus, I adapt it to the opposition but the main idea is to focus in the middle by playing narrower. If I consider that I'm facing a strong midfield with poorer wingers/fullbacks, I will focus on flanks. Maybe play wider if I'm facing a deep and compact defensive team in a small pitch.

You can see, I'm wondering a lot

Hi! Some questions...

1. why do u use mark tighter?

2. do you think close down more is sufficient for possession play like barca ?

3. what do you mean in specialist roles?

[petergoddard]

Hi! Some questions...

1. why do u use mark tighter?

2. do you think close down more is sufficient for possession play like barca ?

3. what do you mean in specialist roles?

Mark tighter should be use both as ppm and TI and / or PI

You also need hassle, I guess get stuck in / stay on feet is kind of an option

DLP and AP are specialized roles... you need to read the thread Philosophy: a debate

[jean.lamy84]

Hi! Some questions...

1. why do u use mark tighter?

2. do you think close down more is sufficient for possession play like barca ?

3. what do you mean in specialist roles?

Hi.

1. Basically because I've made a mistake I think. The initial idea was to stay closer to the opponent. But I think it's a mistake as it seems to reduce the space when winning back possession. A good explanation can be found here.

2. I think Hassle opponent/Retain possession/High defensive line/Offside trap are a good base. Offside trap must be used carrefully, only after 1 year or 2 if your defensive line stay the same.

3. For specialist roles and fluidity here are excellent stuff. But I don't fully agree. I've made some test playing with roles like petergoddard and it seems to work better. As said before I think specialist roles are just generic roles with some specific instructions. Fluidity is just for duties in my mind. For example in my tests I've getting very good result with many support and defend duties (only one attack duties for the BC), playing a good passing and possession game with many chances.

Another thing experimented this evening. "Retain possession" and unchecked "Run at defense" seems to be sufficient in term of tempo. I've not set a lower tempo and it seems to be very good in terms of passing play, movements and possession. (80% during a friendly at half time with my 3 midfield mens getting more than 60 passes).

Very satisfied also on wingback/support with overlap, coupled with 2 inside forward also on support. Noticed many overlap and better passing ratio for the wingback.

Last word : for this type of play, it seems to be a very bad idea to have wingback with long throw PPM. I recommend also playing short corners.

[petergoddard]

Hi.

1. Basically because I've made a mistake I think. The initial idea was to stay closer to the opponent. But I think it's a mistake as it seems to reduce the space when winning back possession. A good explanation can be found here.

2. I think Hassle opponent/Retain possession/High defensive line/Offside trap are a good base. Offside trap must be used carrefully, only after 1 year or 2 if your defensive line stay the same.

3. For specialist roles and fluidity here are excellent stuff. But I don't fully agree. I've made some test playing with roles like petergoddard and it seems to work better. As said before I think specialist roles are just generic roles with some specific instructions. Fluidity is just for duties in my mind. For example in my tests I've getting very good result with many support and defend duties (only one attack duties for the BC), playing a good passing and possession game with many chances.

Another thing experimented this evening. "Retain possession" and unchecked "Run at defense" seems to be sufficient in term of tempo. I've not set a lower tempo and it seems to be very good in terms of passing play, movements and possession. (80% during a friendly at half time with my 3 midfield mens getting more than 60 passes).

Very satisfied also on wingback/support with overlap, coupled with 2 inside forward also on support. Noticed many overlap and better passing ratio for the wingback.

Last word : for this type of play, it seems to be a very bad idea to have wingback with long throw PPM. I recommend also playing short corners.

Jean Lamy it would only be an error if you wanted to recover possession and get to the goal faster, but the idea is to recover the ball and be patient. This way your player will reoccupy their places and restart looking for spaces. In this context I don't think its a mistake.

[jean.lamy84]

Jean Lamy it would only be an error if you wanted to recover possession and get to the goal faster, but the idea is to recover the ball and be patient. This way your player will reoccupy their places and restart looking for spaces. In this context I don't think its a mistake.

In fact I'm a bit confused about tight marking.

It can be a good idea as you explained. But in other way it seems to be a bad idea depending on opposition formation. Especially when playing againts lone striker formation or deep winger one or 4231 and particuliarly if your central defender are set to tight mark.

One mistake I've made also si about zonal/individual marking. As I understand individual marking can only be set via player instruction during a match.

Tight marker will just force players to sit very close to ther opponent (whatever they are in zonal or individual marking).

Opposition instruction has the same effect of tight marking. The only difference is that if you set tight mark always on an opponent, every player marking this opponent will have "tight mark" instruction.

Am I wrong?

[petergoddard]

In fact I'm a bit confused about tight marking.

It can be a good idea as you explained. But in other way it seems to be a bad idea depending on opposition formation. Especially when playing againts lone striker formation or deep winger one or 4231 and particuliarly if your central defender are set to tight mark.

One mistake I've made also si about zonal/individual marking. As I understand individual marking can only be set via player instruction during a match.

Tight marker will just force players to sit very close to ther opponent (whatever they are in zonal or individual marking).

Opposition instruction has the same effect of tight marking. The only difference is that if you set tight mark always on an opponent, every player marking this opponent will have "tight mark" instruction.

Am I wrong?

I think you are right, although it would be nice to have some clarification on this issue. I have approached it on the stupid questions thread :-)

Also, for I have been able to read most people try to find ways of not loosing when its much more important to find ways of winning... two very different concepts :-) what I mean with this is that people try to find perfection to avoid suffer goals instead of finding ways to score them: we have to remember that no matter what, no matter what team we manage we will always suffer goals and in terms of football (not FM) its a bad message to the players because its a message of fear... but ok, this is only my way of thinking the game: I rather prefer to loose the match fighting for the victory, than loosing it trying to avoid the opponent to score.

[cmonreds]

Finally I have settled for a tactic that acchieves what I am looking for. There has been quite a lot of changes compared to the tactic from the OP.

During matches I feel confident with the teams passing in all phases of the build up. Defensively the focus has been to increase the pressing and cutting the passing angles.

This is the formation with roles and duties:

This is the philosophy, fluidity and team instructions:

Individual instructions:

SK_defend_Distribute to defenders

WBL/WBR_support_Shoot less often, Fewer risky passes, Get further forward, Stay wider, Close down more

CD`s_defend_None individual instructions

HB_defend_Shoot less often

CM`s_support_Shoot less often, Roam from position, Close down more

IF`s_attack_Shoot less often, Get further forward, Sit narrower

F9_support_Shoot less often, Drible less, Roam from position

At defensive corner the whole team is given a marking duty. Will give further explanation later on. With regards to why the different instructions has been set.

Will also start a save-game with a lesser team to test the tactic more in depth.

[jean.lamy84]

Finally I have settled for a tactic that acchieves what I am looking for. There has been quite a lot of changes compared to the tactic from the OP.

Have you managed to reach the desired possession/passing?

What are the reasons that leads you to select rigid instead of fluid/very fluid?

Anyway, for duties and instructions I think it's a good way. I just remove "Stay wider" for wingback because on my side I've already ticked "Look for overlap" and because I want to keep a compact team.

[petergoddard]

It seems OI override PI and these ones override TI.

As for my setting, I'm very happy with it, possession is around 67-75%, 20-30 shots / match, 10-15 chances (between ccc's, half chances and hitting posts), my midfielders control the rthym, DLP is making more than 100 passes, excellent % passes in all sectors. I just have to find a way to reduce space between the CD's and the HB... I'm trying a little change playing more narrow but instructing my WB's to stay wider.

[jean.lamy84]

It seems OI override PI and these ones override TI.

Yes. And PI is your players to all opponent players in his zone as OI is all your players for a specific opponent player.

[cmonreds]

Have you managed to reach the desired possession/passing?

What are the reasons that leads you to select rigid instead of fluid/very fluid?

Anyway, for duties and instructions I think it's a good way. I just remove "Stay wider" for wingback because on my side I've already ticked "Look for overlap" and because I want to keep a compact team.

I must play a full season before I can answer that. For the about fifteen matches played with the tactic the lowest possession has been 57% at home against City. The passing has been good in the sense that there are seldom passes misplaced that leads to CCC`s against. Also the amount of chances created are good. The teams look secure in the passing and probe and look for openings.

I selected rigid for the simple reason of creative freedom given is lower. The team are more loyal to the instructions given. Also the F9 takes less long shots this way. I was seriously considering DLF when testing with very fluid.

Regarding stay wider: It is a very good point you make. But stay wider instruction is necessary with this set-up, it is the WB that holds the width with the tactic. They shall move up and down their channel by the byline offering support and width. The principle of Width is crucial, so with this tactic the WB is given this task. For a more defensive version the WB would not be given this instruction. Instead the sit narrower would be removed for the IF`s. This first has to be tested to see if it is working well. There will also be two other versions of the tactic. One more cautious one as well as a more adventurous one.

[petergoddard]

I must play a full season before I can answer that. For the about fifteen matches played with the tactic the lowest possession has been 57% at home against City. The passing has been good in the sense that there are seldom passes misplaced that leads to CCC`s against. Also the amount of chances created are good. The teams look secure in the passing and probe and look for openings.

I selected rigid for the simple reason of creative freedom given is lower. The team are more loyal to the instructions given. Also the F9 takes less long shots this way. I was seriously considering DLF when testing with very fluid.

Regarding stay wider: It is a very good point you make. But stay wider instruction is necessary with this set-up, it is the WB that holds the width with the tactic. They shall move up and down their channel by the byline offering support and width. The principle of Width is crucial, so with this tactic the WB is given this task. For a more defensive version the WB would not be given this instruction. Instead the sit narrower would be removed for the IF`s. This first has to be tested to see if it is working well. There will also be two other versions of the tactic. One more cautious one as well as a more adventurous one.

Don't forget that if you look at ppm's as an essential part, your players must not have their CF limited... but this is also a matter of personnal choice and every choice as its legitimacy :-) The same goes for who chooses to adapt to opponents and who chooses to make opponents adapt to our style: I'm always for the second one.

[petergoddard]

Yes. And PI is your players to all opponent players in his zone as OI is all your players for a specific opponent player.

Have you been able to undertand what happens when using both (PI and OI) ?

[jean.lamy84]

Have you been able to undertand what happens when using both (PI and OI) ?

I think if you give for example the "Mark tighter" PI to your HB, he will tight mark every player in his zone (or the designed player if you set him to mark a specific player). So it can be many players : attacking midfielder making runs, offensive midfielder, deep forward, inside forward making runs in his zone,...

In addition if you specify "Always tight mark" for the opponent MOC, he and only him will be tight mark by any of your player which will be in his zone. So if the MOC comes in your HB zone he will be tight mark because of the 2 instructions : PI and OI. He will not be marked more but doing this you ensure both a specific opponent is tight mark and both a specific player of yours is tight marking.

I let you imagine the complexity of combinations given if we take care about every instructions.

I think all instructions : TI, PI, OI are complementary but does not enforce the instruction. For example, I'm not sure that setting Retain Possession/Shorter Passing as TI coupled with "Shorter passing" PI will lead to a shorter passing than only these 2 TI.

That's only assumption and how I understand why I read on this forum, on www.guidetofootballmanager.com and other sites (exciting reading!!!)

[petergoddard]

I think if you give for example the "Mark tighter" PI to your HB, he will tight mark every player in his zone (or the designed player if you set him to mark a specific player). So it can be many players : attacking midfielder making runs, offensive midfielder, deep forward, inside forward making runs in his zone,...

In addition if you specify "Always tight mark" for the opponent MOC, he and only him will be tight mark by any of your player which will be in his zone. So if the MOC comes in your HB zone he will be tight mark because of the 2 instructions : PI and OI. He will not be marked more but doing this you ensure both a specific opponent is tight mark and both a specific player of yours is tight marking.

I think all instructions : TI, PI, OI are complementary but does not enforce the instruction. For example, I'm not sure that setting Retain Possession/Shorter Passing as TI coupled with "Shorter passing" PI will lead to a shorter passing than only these 2 TI.

That's only assumption and how I understand why I read on this forum, on www.guidetofootballmanager.com and other sites (exciting reading!!!)

I posted this at the stupid question thread and Cleon gave an answer

a) if my CD (stopper) is PI to mark tigher he will do so to any player that comes inside his zone ? Right ?

b) if a set an opponent forward player to mark tighter, my same CD will do so only to that forward ? Right ?

c) if my CD is set to mark tighter both at PI and OI, the OI instruction will override the PI instruction ? Right ?

A) Yes because its a PI

B) You mean use an OI on a specific forward? Then yes because its an OI.

C) OI's overwrite PI's..............

[yonko]

I selected rigid for the simple reason of creative freedom given is lower. The team are more loyal to the instructions given. Also the F9 takes less long shots this way. I was seriously considering DLF when testing with very fluid.

Fluidity is basically a mentality and creative freedom structure. If you want more fluid mentality structure, but still want to limit the creative freedom, then you can always select fluid/very fluid along with "be more discipline" TI.

With rigid, does the F9 drop back deep enough and do the IFs advance ahead of him?

[jean.lamy84]

I posted this at the stupid question thread and Cleon gave an answer

a) if my CD (stopper) is PI to mark tigher he will do so to any player that comes inside his zone ? Right ?

b) if a set an opponent forward player to mark tighter, my same CD will do so only to that forward ? Right ?

c) if my CD is set to mark tighter both at PI and OI, the OI instruction will override the PI instruction ? Right ?

A) Yes because its a PI

B) You mean use an OI on a specific forward? Then yes because its an OI.

C) OI's overwrite PI's..............

I think all is about your c) point.

In fact you don't tell your DC to mark tighter in OI. You set an opposition player to be tight marked. In your example a central forward for example. If you set this there is 2 possibilities :

- you use zonal marking. Then each of your player in the zone of the central forward will tight mark him.

- you use individual marking. Then the player who is set to mark individualy the central forward will tight mark him.

With all those combinaison, I understand that if you set "Mark tighter" as TI, it is not necessary to set it both in PI or OI.

And it goes the same with all instructions.

(I'm very sorry about my english which might sounds horrible for you english speaking people...)

[petergoddard]

I think all is about your c) point.

In fact you don't tell your DC to mark tighter in OI. You set an opposition player to be tight marked. In your example a central forward for example. If you set this there is 2 possibilities :

- you use zonal marking. Then each of your player in the zone of the central forward will tight mark him.

- you use individual marking. Then the player who is set to mark individualy the central forward will tight mark him.

With all those combinaison, I understand that if you set "Mark tighter" as TI, it is not necessary to set it both in PI or OI.

And it goes the same with all instructions.

(I'm very sorry about my english which might sounds horrible for you english speaking people...)

As for mark tighter i use it in TI but also as ppm

[Mrmuto]

There are a lot of things im not sure about but one thing that is really bothering me now is the tempo...slow or fast?

what do you think guys?

[petergoddard]

There are a lot of things im not sure about but one thing that is really bothering me now is the tempo...slow or fast?

what do you think guys?

Adapt it during matches, start with no instruction and remember that tempo is set by default according to your strategy

[cmonreds]

There are a lot of things im not sure about but one thing that is really bothering me now is the tempo...slow or fast?

what do you think guys?

I would go for fast/quick tempo. The players pass the ball quicker this way. You can still be patient in the build ups when playing with quick tempo. Be more considerate with giving risky passes instructions as well as giving TI/PI for shorter passing.

I just had 70% percent possession in an away game with Liverpool against West Ham with higher tempo as a TI.