The Guardiola pressing game - And how to press the same way on FM14

[jean.lamy84]

There is no point in setting shorter passing as a TI and doing it for a few players as a PI as well? I am thinking sliders here, that doing it individually will make the players play even shorter passes?

Excellent question. If Cleon is right then the answer is no. If you set TI to "shorter passing" then setting this as PI for some players will have no effect. And if you want to set different passing types in your team, you must use PI and no TI for passing.

[jean.lamy84]

As said early I've start a new save in order to try new things with base Barcelona team (I was interrested to see what PPM they have by default).

Here is my choosen style :

Mentality / Fluidity : Control or Attacking or Defending (it depends on opposition and on match evolution) / Balanced.

I actually remove "Retain possession" after reading some comments here. In fact I start without and finish with depending on score.

I'm not sure again on "Pass into space" and "Roam from position".

I'm not sure about keeping "Play wider" even if I must say that it seems to works well (seem logicial for me with pass into space).

I'm not sure about "Use Tight marking". Maybe I will go for PI instead in order be more precise.

Same goes for "Hassle opponents". I've tried without for a few match and it goes very well because my forward roles already have "press more" by default.

For specific player instructions, very few :

-GB : distribute to defenders.

-CWB/A : fewer risky passes, run wide with ball

- CD/D : nothing

- HB/D : fewer risky passes, mark tighter (useless since the use of TI)

- DLP/S : mark tighter (same remark)

- AP/S : mark tighter (same remark)

- IF/S : fewer risky passes, stay narrower

- T/A : nothing.

Again all is under the actual comprehension of TI and PI. I'm pretty sure that all my actual PI are related to a TI (run wide with ball maybe related to look for overlap). I would be interrested to have more infos on this : which PI is related to which TI.

I'm pretty satisfied with this actually. Possession is around 57 to 70 percents and passing is pretty good. Here are some screenshots of my last match against a "normal team" (Real sociedad) :

Possession:

Action zone:

Passes:

I'm trying to improve again the possession stats but find it difficult to have more than 70%. I only reached more than 69% 3 or 4 times on 20 matches. I've also noticed than many times I have more than 70% at half time but I fail to keep this possession and loose a bit until end of match (generally finished around 65%).

Regarding passing, I'm quite very happy. I get Xavi or Verratti around 100 passes each matches and some times with more than 130.

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

[yonko]

This is noted. I assumed they would be more offensive in their approach when given an attacking role. So this change is more suited for playing with balanced philosophy?

In a Balanced philosophy the roles and duties make a huge difference. In Very Fluid, very little. Specifically, WBs on support or attack duty have tiny differences in their instructions.

[cmonreds]

First season review

The first season Nantes finished in 4th. Due to Olympique Marseille winning the Champions League Nantes received a place in the CL third qualification round. Worth noticing is that only PSG scored more goals than Nantes this season, Nantes scoring average was 1,76 per game. Defensively Nantes conceded 6th least goals during the season. Conceding an average of 1,08 per game.

Number crunching for the 38 league games played

____________________________Nantes_______________Opponents

Total shots/Avg.per match______529/14,0_____________346/9,1

Total CCC/Avg.per match________87/2,3_______________79/2,1

Total Half C/Avg.per match______109/2,9_______________74/2,0 (Half chances created)

Total LongShots/Percentage_____135/26%_____________110/32% (Percentage of total shots)

Possession_____________________58,8%_______________41,2%

Passes Completed average________82,5%

Passes Completed defence________78,5%

Passes Completed midfield________83,7%

Passes Completed attack_________84,1%

Nantes was predicted to finish at 19th place. They were announced as the overachievers of the season. I am very happy with how the season went. Due to not possessing a large squad with good players. As well as though match-preparation was set to TeamWork, the team never reached the higher levels of Team Cohesion.

Even though it must be said that it was the goalscoring potential rather than very solid defending that acchieved the relative success this season. The average CCC and half-chances created I am fairly happy with compared to the quality of players. The offensive players are also of a generally higher quality than the defensive players. The statistic might improve with better players but still there are some issues that must be dealt with.

From the matches played I have a clear idea of how the goals against are created. Now begins the large task of analyzing and confirm this. Also which measurements to take and possible alter the tactical instructions. It must be said that I don`t want to compromise the goalscoring ability of the tactic as well as the ability to keep possession. Keeping possession is an aim to control matches and is regarded as one of the foundations of the tactic.

To be continued....

[yonko]

What do you plan to do defensively? Did you try adjusting any settings during the matches? If yes, what worked and what didn't?

I'd guess that the D-line was too high for the level of players you have. Maybe in some away games you would do better with Counter Strategy.

[cmonreds]

In the OP I mentioned that Barca often pressed their opponents towards the sidelines before trying to win the ball back. Also they closed down their opponents high up the pitch. The same thing is tried to acchieve with the tactics. Hence the Play Narrower, Hassle and Much Higher DL TI.

I will show some screenshots from matches where all this was acchieved and from matches where it was not acchieved. This is done to try to find out why. Also player attributes will come into account to define if the fault is solely on the tactics, the player/s or a combination. Also different opposition formations and playing styles will be included. The focus will be on the defensive part and the above mentioned pressing aims. When we have done some matches from the first season and got some more experiences, we will start with upcoming matches from season two. Try to be ahead of the game and minimizing the risks against us. Later analyze if we were correct with our pre-match assumptions. Also the matches can be replayed with a different solution on solving issues to find the better solution.

The first example was a match against Sochaux with Herve Renard as manager. He has stand-off as preferred pressing style. As well as passing and balanced mentality with a 4-5-1 formation. This means they will sit deep and invite pressure and will seldom play passes from deep behind my defenders. This will lead to more possession as well as higher average position for your team. After creating the screenshot I saw that they had one player sent off early on. This match suits as a bad example because of this. I will just show it as an example of what to come. For the next examples average postions will also be included.

[jean.lamy84]

Just a little update on a very good game played against Almeria at home.

Possession stats:

Passing stats:

Action zones:

Movements analysis:

I've made some tweaks since a few matches.

No TI changes.

I removed all PI instructions for my back line.

HB has "less risky passes" and "shoot less often".

DLP has no PI

AP has "more direct passes" PI.

IFL has "stay narrower", "get forward", "shoot less often" and "more direct passes"

IFR has "stay narrower", "shoot less often" and "more direct passes"

Messi (god) play now as a poacher with no PI. (my goal is to find the best way to use him and I find poacher very good with 2 IF on support. a very good thread to discuss here.)

During this game I find the team performing very well in terms of movements (perhaps because of man marking preference of Almeria's coach).

Regarding possession/passing, it makes me think that creator roles on support duties are very important for this (both IF and AP/DLP). Direct passes on the most creative attacking players seems to work well to balance between control/possession and attack.

[Hunter T]

Very good ideas in this thread, gonna keep an eye in it

[jeesh]

Whats the difference between a Guardiola Tactic & a Bielsa Tactic?

[deosays]

Whats the difference between a Guardiola Tactic & a Bielsa Tactic?

Guardiola tends to use slow movement to bring the ball forward while Bielsa tends to use fast movement.

[jeesh]

Sorry i opened a thread on this topic but couldnt get any response-so here i am.

I favor the Bielsa tactic a bit more, in the sense i would like quicker, wider movement. Pressing would be similar. But when in possession i dont want such a patient approach. Rather i would like my players to surge ahead with a lot more intensity. At the same time must retain possession, and not play too direct so as to keep losing poessession.

Any tactical suggestions for that?

[yonko]

Whats the difference between a Guardiola Tactic & a Bielsa Tactic?

14 trophies.

On a serious note, Bielsa is more willing to use other formations and/or adjust his formation.

[Nikola1988]

cmonreds ,

And you couldn't put any instructions you put the team and players!!!!!

[JD nawrat]

Interesting thread, worth reading (I haven't as of yet read it all, though).

Managing Aston Villa, I play a similar brand of very aggressive high pressing possession oriented football. It works for the most part but I have a few issues with it. One is that we concede way too many goals. We are very susceptible to the counter and teams take advantage of it. I'm thinking of implementing your idea of man marking specific defenders in order to prevent the counter opportunities from arising.

However I have a question regarding this idea which highlights a potentially huge issue... You state that you man mark the "weaker" passer. What if, like I'm about to do just now, you come up against a Man City side with Vincent Kompany and Raphael Varane at CB? Varane, with Passing of 14, is slightly better than Kompany (12), but the pair of them are accomplished passers for their position and have the composure and creativity needed to pass the ball around as they desire.

The solution would be to man mark both of them, but in a lone striker formation this simply isn't a viable option, without dragging either an MC or Winger well out of position.

[Rob4590]

However I have a question regarding this idea which highlights a potentially huge issue... You state that you man mark the "weaker" passer.

Unless he has changed his theory since the OP, he man-marks the BETTER passer of the 2 DCs, not the weaker

In your example of having 2 good passing DCs, then c'mon also looks at where the attacking threat is coming from and tries to keep play away from that side - ie by marking the DC on that side - so that would be the answer in this case

[rune_star]

Unless he has changed his theory since the OP, he man-marks the BETTER passer of the 2 DCs, not the weaker

In your example of having 2 good passing DCs, then c'mon also looks at where the attacking threat is coming from and tries to keep play away from that side - ie by marking the DC on that side - so that would be the answer in this case

Exactly, plus in that particular example (with two passing capable DC's), you need to look at the possible outlets for DC passing. What is the City manager's preference? Does he like to play down the wings? Tight (man)mark the most likely recipient on the wings. Does he prefer a central playing style, do the same in the middle. You could even try using your striker to man mark the DMC instead (or a fullback), allowing City's DC's to pass as they like, but more effectively close down all their passing options. Try marking all players on one side of the pitch, forcing them to build up on the opposite side, where you can then play your strongest defensive players.

It's about forcing the opposition to do more or less what you want them do, so you can have a 'plan' prepared as opposed to just letting them start their build up and try and 'take it from there'... It's much easier to do something about opponents build-up if you already have an idea about how they're going to attempt to come at you. Best way to do that, is by eliminating x amount of options for opposition

Experiment with taking away hassle opponents in team instructions, and set personal instructions instead. That way, you can manually set tight marking, man marking, whatever, on one side of the pitch (or the middle), and let the players on the other side be unmarked, but set your players on the other side to close down more, tackle hard and all that. This should theoretically press the opponents to deliver the ball from goalie or DC down the side with non-tightmarked players, and as they receive the ball, your close-down-more-tackle-hard players should immediately go for the kill...

[JD nawrat]

Sorry, I meant marking the better passer, my apologies.

Okay then, which side is easier to mark up on... Xherdan Shaqiri on the same side as Raphael Varane or Christian Eriksen on the same side as Vincent Kompany?

I'm not knocking this ideology, I think it has great potential, but there are glaringly obvious problems when it comes to facing bigger teams. And it isn't like my Villa side is like IRL - we've finished 3rd two seasons in a row, I have a very capable squad and we narrowly missed out on CL semi-finals last season.

Of course that goes without say, though, that the biggest teams are the ones most capable of playing like Guardiola's pressing game. Would Villa IRL be able to play like Guardiola had Barca playing? No. So it goes without say in many ways that you need to be a bigger team to get your teams to play this way. I can't imagine this sort of system ever working when you're against better (or even equal) opposition away from home. cmonreds provided a very good screenshot of his Barcelona side beating Real Madrid but it was the Camp Nou. Have you had the same sort of success at the Bernabeu?

e: and in response to rune_star above, whilst what you're saying is all well and good in theory, choosing between allowing City more freedom down the left or down the right is essentially asking if I'd rather be blind or be deaf. If I let them attack down the right, it starts with Varane and can go to any of Glen Johnson, Xherdan Shaqiri, Javi Garcia or Yaya Touré, with Sergio Aguero up front. If I give them freedom down the left, it's Kompany, Clichy, Javi Gacia, Sami Khedira or Christian Eriksen. I could give them freedom up the middle but the combination of Khedira, Yaya and JaviGar would overrun us.

Hassling them is a good idea but they are always likely to find a free man and whoever that free man is, he's a very capable player and he's going to be able to find the space that we are leaving open due to our hassling nature.

[Rob4590]

Choosing which side in this case is determined by the form of the players involved - so in the example you mention - which of Eriksen or Shaqiri has been in better form in YOUR game? (ie higher ave rating, more assists / goals). As in c'mon's Barca v Real example, he stated Ronaldo was theie form player (With Bale in average form) so stopping Ronaldo is more important. If both are playing well - then you face the same conundrum as most real life managers when playing a top team with stars everywhere - how do I stop them? And only you can answer that question! (and of course, even then, it might / probably won't work)

[theshark05]

Great read mate! Thoroughly enjoyed.

Would it be possible for you to mention what Player instructions you give individually?

I seem to be struggling to get the most out of Coutinho and Suarez.

Sigh

[killacam0913]

This is a great thread! It's an added enjoyment in FM to see people talk about the game in terms of the actual game instead of just making tactics to be unstoppable.

My question is: has anyone thought about how this type of tactic might change based on scoreline? For example, would a defensive or counter type of tactic be better/more realistic when up say 3-0. This might also maintain higher possession throughout the entire game.

[goblinshark]

Question, how to u set for the Busquets role. I tried setting HB and he defend deeper then CBs leaving a gab bettwen mid and d.

[cmonreds]

To get the two central defenders and the half-back to work together like they are supposed to, with the central defenders pulling out wide towards the byline and the half-back positioning himself in between them, I use the following formation:

Pulling the fullbacks/wingbacks forward to the wingback spot in the formation does the trick:

The central defenders will occupy the wide space the wingbacks leave behind. With regard to the gap between the back three and midfield this is not an issue with this tactic. The instructions for the central midfielders make them available passing options most of the time.

Here is the complete list of personal instructions with the tactic:

SweeperKeeper: Distribute to defenders. Wingbacks: Shoot less often, Drible less, Fewer risky passes, Get further forward, Stay Wider. Half-back: Shoot less often, Fewer risky passes. CentralMidfielders: Shoot less often, Fewer risky passes, Roam from position. InsideForwards: Shoot less often, Cross less often, Get further forward, Sit narrower. FalseNine: Shoot less often, Drible less, Roam from position.

[Mercurio.3]

cmonreds have you tried your formation with 14.3 patch? Are you using Wing Backs against 1 Striker too?

[cmonreds]

Yes. Started a new game with the last patch. Using this tactic against all formations. I am tinkering about a version that kills the game by keeping possession if necessary. Suggestions most welcom..

[Mercurio.3]

Always with a Half Back?

[Mark.]

cmonreds

I too am using the halfback as a major part of my tactic. Have you found teams exploiting that triangle of space behind the halfback and between the split centre backs?

Where the opposition strikers are in the above image.

[cmonreds]

Always with a Half Back?

Against 451 etc with just one attacking threat I switch the half-back to regista or defensive midfielder.

[cmonreds]

cmonreds

I too am using the halfback as a major part of my tactic. Have you found teams exploiting that triangle of space behind the halfback and between the split centre backs?

Where the opposition strikers are in the above image.

It is not a big problem even though it happens. The picture is a little misleading in that way. The main purpose is to show how wide the central defenders move. Also bear in mind that this is how they positioning themselves when in possession. If the ball is lost they will quickly narrow their positioning. When the wingbacks is used as with this formation it is almost impossible to defend against.

The team acchieve very good width in the attacking phase. They double on each flank as well as being able to play out of defence on either side or most preferrable through the middle.

[Mark.]

Yes true good point. As long as the defenders are smart enough it should work well.

I also like you above mentioned point about switching to Regista or DM if the other team is only using one Striker.

[Mercurio.3]

Against 451 etc with just one attacking threat I switch the half-back to regista or defensive midfielder.

Ok. That's what I wanted to know. The rest of the tactic, team instructions and player instructions are the same that you posted above? What instructions do you set for Regista or Defensive Midfielder?

[cmonreds]

The rest of the instructions are the same. The instructions given to the regista and the DM is to dribble less and fewer risky passes where optional. The same as all four defenders. This is to secure the build-ups. Where the team is moving into a new shape. Because the team is vulnerable then if passes are going astray. As well as this make the build-up more patient and ensures that the wingbacks are given time to get forward and provide width during the attack.

The CM`s and the IF`s are given medium risk for the passes. They can take the opportunity to pass to open up the defence if a good chance arises. If not they will circulate the ball. The only player allowed risky passes is the F9. Whilst the rest of the team probe, he is allowed to create.

By playing this way the tactic gives a reliable build-up and a good passing pattern.

[manulee]

Cmonreds

I fallow most of your posts with close atention

I m trying to replicate your tactic on chelsea then on marseille anda I found it very weak regarding the defense

I add the pass shorter to the CD because they often try a long ball.

Have you put all the PI and TI?

thanks mate

[cmonreds]

Cmonreds

I fallow most of your posts with close atention

I m trying to replicate your tactic on chelsea then on marseille anda I found it very weak regarding the defense

I add the pass shorter to the CD because they often try a long ball.

Have you put all the PI and TI?

thanks mate

Is the team fluid with the tactic? How well does your team work as an unit (report-last match-team talk feedback)? What are your set-pieces instructions like? These are the only ones not posted. Also I don`t think the added short passing to the CD would be beneficial. The team instruction short passing should be sufficient. Too short passing would lead to the CD`s not being able to play out of defence, especially when being closed down. Also I look for ballplaying defenders for the CD positions, even though not instructed to play like ballplaying defenders.

Having players able to keep and pass the ball is crucial. The whole balance and rhytm is destroyed if such players are not present. I have only used the tactic with Liverpool. Only players bought is Ward-Prowse from Southampton.

[cmonreds]

What makes this tactic work so well can be explained with the above posted screenshot from the match vs Huddersfield. I marked down the three diamonds the formation is forming. One either side of the pitch as well as on in the middle. Forming triangles/diamonds are one of the main concepts about tiki taka/possession based systems. It gives a good short passing ball circulation as well as possession high up the pitch.

[manulee]

yes the tactic is fluid, the goals i conceded are not from set pieces.

most of the time, the CB press to high and make a 1 for 2 situation....

[goblinshark]

Does your striker score often? Im dominating every match 60-40 and my chances are 20+ every game, but goals are a little difficult to come by as they keep shooting from the sides which almost always directly go out

[Cleon]

If you have 20+ shots in a game then you are being far too aggressive in your approach to the game. The more shots the less likely they are going to be of good quality. Hence why you have 20+ but struggling to score.

[goblinshark]

Well its not like they are bad decision like long shots, it is those cuts in from the side

[Cleon]

Well its not like they are bad decision like long shots, it is those cuts in from the side

Well if they aren't hitting the target or are from tight angles cutting in and not scoring then of course they are bad decisions, how can you say otherwise?

You even said 'goals are a little difficult to come by as they keep shooting from the sides which almost always directly go out' and now you try and justify it?

[cmonreds]

Does your striker score often? Im dominating every match 60-40 and my chances are 20+ every game, but goals are a little difficult to come by as they keep shooting from the sides which almost always directly go out

Suarez is bagging a goal per match in average. The other strikers used scores frequently as well.

[goblinshark]

Suarez is bagging a goal per match in average. The other strikers used scores frequently as well.

What is your stirker roles and instructions, if u dont mind ?

[cmonreds]

What is your stirker roles and instructions, if u dont mind ?

False Nine with instructions posted earlier in this post. I am pretty sure your players haven`t geled yet. Watch what the report about this and see what your team is like. Put match-training to teamwork to increase the team-cohesion.

[Powello]

I am tying to figure out why my players are taking too many shots. As with goblinshak a lot are from my wide players cutting in and shooting. They are set to shoot less often and have passing options open to them that from my eye should be simple but they just shoot.

To start with I am Southport with a terribly weak team compared to the rest of the league.

AN example, last game we won superbly 4-0 against Wrexham but we had 22 shots with only 7 on target, 5 were blocked, we hit the woodwork twice and 8 of them were long shots including one of the goals. I believe this system is brilliant and with a few tweaks can work for any team so with Southport I want to really tweak it to the team.

I think perhaps slowing the game down may help as from watching some of the efforts we had in that game our wide men were cutting in and shooting when there were better options for the pass, so I am thinking because of the poor mental stats they were being rushed into a decision and couldn't make up their minds quick enough so just shot.

I just noticed aswell that neither of the CMs have get further forward at least as a PI, so no ones getting up there to give even more help to the wide men. So I am going to tinker with their settings, maybe change at least one of their duties to get them more involved. I don't think just adding get further forward will help enough with that.

What do people think? will that take too much away from the defensive side of the team? especially considering the level of players.

Any other ideas of what I could do?

I have considered myself pretty good tactic wise on FM all the way through the series, but sometimes in this version I get stumped. Definitely the best ME so far. That's why I love this game, I love going deep into tactics which is why I am glad I came across this thread

[GEORGE WEAH]

cmonreds just wondering how your tactic is coming along have you made any tweaks or changes.

[gerrardsrightfoot]

This tactic seems to have become less and less effective for me since the update which is a bit odd considering I'm using Liverpool and they were given a significant boost. My main problem seems to be I have very few sustained spells of pressure. An average amount of shots but not many on target and not many clear goal scoring chances, always more possession than the opposition but mostly in safe areas. I'm not convinced the shoot less often instruction on the front 3 is beneficial in the long run, especially with the likes of Suarez and Sturridge in the team but I'll persist for a bit longer. Also tinkering with the 2CB HB 2WB set up from above has seen a sensational upturn in the amount of goals I concede, I prefer to stick with the flat back 4 but I can see how it would work better with other clubs.

Also, just a suggestion but it would be helpful if this thread was maybe tidied up a little. Whilst the key elements are explained in the first post, it would be good if links to further detailed posts containing tweaks, individual instructions etc were included in the OP as well. Otherwise it can be quite difficult to find what may solve something which is a shame as this is a great tactic and could help a lot more people.

[Bigjim777]

Have you ever attempted skill south? Series c2? Or any bottom league playing possession football?

Its a shame you seem to have such good enthusiasm for the game yet you play with the best team on it? Its like playing Rome total war as Julius Cesar on easy mode...

Highest rated club I've played with is San Marino on fm14 and then Dover athletic. Averaging 65% possession a game

[poma]

What about OP-instructions?

[Generation-Next]

Have you ever attempted skill south? Series c2? Or any bottom league playing possession football?Its a shame you seem to have such good enthusiasm for the game yet you play with the best team on it? Its like playing Rome total war as Julius Cesar on easy mode...Highest rated club I've played with is San Marino on fm14 and then Dover athletic. Averaging 65% possession a game

Well that's your prerogative. Not every one finds pleasure in that. So it's not a shame if he doesn't want to do it

[Sir Pep Ferguson]

Hi, I really enjoyed your post and was eager to implement it into my Reading side. Initially I followed everything you said however after an inconsistent first half of the season I decided to tweak a few things.

What I found worked for my side was to increase to ATTACKING and decrease to FLUID. This allowed the midfield to push up a bit more but also become slightly more compact so that if I were to lose the ball it would be higher up the pitch but also close enough for my DM to recover (he's set as a Ball Winning Midfielder). This worked a treat as I then went on a 12 game win streak (even beating Man Utd who were top!).

Opposition who used a lone striker were up against my DM and 2 CDs, while those who opted for two up front were sandwiched between my slightly more compact midfield and my 2 CDs (basically the part you mentioned about a quick transition between attack and defence).

Also if you play with HIGHER TEMPO the passing obviously speeds up but what I found intriguing was the fact that if I lost the ball to a team with one striker they rarely played it through the middle because of the quick recovery from my CMs. Instead they played it out wide and, because of the high tempo, my fullbacks were already on the scene to win it back and counter. Teams with two strikers tried to play the ball through but because I was on ATTACKING the offside trap trapped both strikers so that whoever they passed to would get flagged.

Once again I really enjoyed your post and what I did may not necessarily work for everyone but I just thought I'd contribute since your post helped me a lot!