Ridiculously Hard

[DANSCHOFIELD]

Hi,

i recently purchased this years version of the game and i'm finding it far too difficult.

Here's what happen -

Managed DCFC (1st attempt) -

Lasted until xmas 2013 and won 3 or 4 games - all others involved other teams doing barcelona impressions at my expense.

2nd attempt, still DCFC -

Lasted 9 games of which 8 were defeats, many by 3+ goals.

Now, here is the thing, i didn't play strikers in goal or defenders upfront, i built a normal looking team with normal tactics and expected mid-table - this shouldn't be too hard with Derby, no?

Now my games is useless as no one will give me a job, not even Skrill teams - which is another ridiculous thing about the game.

all in all a very very poor incarnation in my opinion.

[Dagenham_Dave]

Now my games is useless as no one will give me a job, not even Skrill teams

Neither would I !

Eight defeats by three or more goals in your first nine games? Sheesh, even I'm not that bad!

[DANSCHOFIELD]

i got walloped every game. and that is my point! Derby are not rubbish so why is it that what ever i do in game results in a farce?

[wwfan]

Your final sentence is not really necessary. Just because you aren't very good at the game doesn't mean it's a bad game. It means you have some learning to do.

When you say "normal" tactic, what do you mean?

[Insert_Goal_Here]

It's your tactics.

[DANSCHOFIELD]

Your final sentence is not really necessary. Just because you aren't very good at the game doesn't mean it's a bad game. It means you have some learning to do.

When you say "normal" tactic, what do you mean?

i would play -

FB DC DC FB

DM

IF AP IF

TM

Or, when i was battered every week -

just a normal 4-4-2

no matter what i changed the settings to i lost. i find it almost impossible to use the scouts to find anyone - they just return the same players constantly or no one at all.

i find it impossible to understand what is wrong with the tactics i employ and the list goes on and on.

[tieio]

This years version of the game has a way more intense learning curve for the average user, by far, though the elitists will disagree. There is likely a conversation like this on every page of these forums and the next few responses would be akin to; "actually I find this version to be far easier", so I guess it is down to interpenetration. The best thing to do apparently is to go to the tactics forum and spend hours reading about tactics in order to find a way to win... While I would think this should not be necessary and a reasonable tactic should yield at least some decent results apparently some of us need to do this in order to play properly and not be bombarded by the "it's your tactics" trolls. So, there you have it, it is not the game but the fact that the tactics in this version are not as simple as they have been in the past and require more immersion. Gone are the days when you could find a solid tactic and leave it in for your entire match and do alright, now you pretty much have to make a tactic, then a 2nd tactic and a 3rd and constantly play chess by tweaking things every few minutes in a game in order to get a good result. Good think there is FMC!

[themadsheep2001]

This years version of the game has a way more intense learning curve for the average user, by far, though the elitists will disagree. There is likely a conversation like this on every page of these forums and the next few responses would be akin to; "actually I find this version to be far easier", so I guess it is down to interpenetration. The best thing to do apparently is to go to the tactics forum and spend hours reading about tactics in order to find a way to win... While I would think this should not be necessary and a reasonable tactic should yield at least some decent results apparently some of us need to do this in order to play properly and not be bombarded by the "it's your tactics" trolls. So, there you have it, it is not the game but the fact that the tactics in this version are not as simple as they have been in the past and require more immersion. Gone are the days when you could find a solid tactic and leave it in for your entire match and do alright, now you pretty much have to make a tactic, then a 2nd tactic and a 3rd and constantly play chess by tweaking things every few minutes in a game in order to get a good result. Good think there is FMC!

Honestly you constantly run around responding like this time again, and its not even remotely helpful. So please cut it out, I've asked you to stop the before, and I don't think I should have to tell you again so consider this a warning.

OP, what is a "normal 4-4-2"? What philosophy, strategy, roles are you using? What style are you trying to achieve? Can your players work with said style?

[DANSCHOFIELD]

Honestly you constantly run around responding like this time again, and its not even remotely helpful. So please cut it out, I've asked you to stop the before, and I don't think I should have to tell you again so consider this a warning.

OP, what is a "normal 4-4-2"? What philosophy, strategy, roles are you using? What style are you trying to achieve? Can your players work with said style?

very simply i tried to play like real life derby with the first tactic - short passing, work into box, etc. - failed.

the normal one which was a complete disaster was as follows -

balanced and standard or counter depending on opponents.

roles

full backs - support, DC - limited - DC limited.

WM - Attack, CM box to box or ball winner, CM - deep laying play maker, WM - Attack.

Target man Support and Poacher.

with this i was trying to just get a balanced working tactic to give me time to progress - instead i set the worst string of results ive ever had in motion.

[themadsheep2001]

very simply i tried to play like real life derby with the first tactic - short passing, work into box, etc. - failed.

the normal one which was a complete disaster was as follows -

balanced and standard or counter depending on opponents.

roles

full backs - support, DC - limited - DC limited.

WM - Attack, CM box to box or ball winner, CM - deep laying play maker, WM - Attack.

Target man Support and Poacher.

with this i was trying to just get a balanced working tactic to give me time to progress - instead i set the worst string of results ive ever had in motion.

I'm no Derby expert, but from what I've seen its more of a 4-3-3 than 4-4-2?

From what I've seen they seen to be short passing, aggressive, possession based football in the opponents half. Judging by the amount of shots they take and concede, its a creative open risky game they play (feels like an i'll score one more than you). I think it might be tough to get right, and you could take some licks trying to do it too.

I'd have to watch more, but I'd go Dutch:

GK Goalkeeper Defend

DR Wing Back Automatic

DRC Central Defender Defend

DLC Central Defender Defend

DL Wing Back Automatic

MRC Advanced Playmaker Attack Hughes

MC Central Midfielder Defend. Eustace

MLC: BBM Bryson

STRC DLF/Support

STC Advanced Forward Martin ( I think he is is far too mobile and creative to be a Poacher)

STLC DLF Support?

I think this is a thread more suited to the tactics forum, and this is off the top of my head without any testing, but thats roughly where I would start

[samdiatmh]

i would play -

FB DC DC FB

DM

IF AP IF

TM

there's your problem, you're playing with 10 men

[Matt ex SEGA]

There's a bit of a learning curve as the system we (I use the term for other people who like me have played for years) is different.

I also found that a lot of my assumptions about roles / philosophies were downright wrong i.e. if you play counter-attacking you'll be a solid defensive team who only scores on the break etc.

wwfan's 12 step guide takes about ten minutes to read, another 20 to apply, and made the game a considerable amount more enjoyable for me - I now have a side playing a custom tactic (i.e. not default - I know they work OK) with custom roles etc that is working a treat and is very rewarding.

All I'd say is - consider that perhaps if you've been great at the game before, SI are challenging you a little more this year with some different stuff. Grasping the basics unlocked a whole different way for me to get my sides to play. But that first step was the important one.

Oh - and please do ignore the people who are desperate to complain about the difficulty in dealing with the tactics forums or how many tactics you need in a match - I use one, occasioccasionally changing the mentality during the course of the season, and it works pretty well for me. Some people don't want to learn, they just want to hate. Dull.

Good luck!

Matt

[El Presidente]

SI have still not learned from FM Live.

Players who lose a lot tend not to want to pay for the product.

For people like the OP the assistant manager should be a great deal more helpful.

Even an assistant with all 20 stats is pretty useless and comes up with the same rubbish as a standard or poorly rated assistant.

[SurferJames]

really invest in your tactics it does really help...the forums are here for a reason to help those struggling, trust me I used to be so annoyed with the fm and blamed si for all sorts of things but eventually you got to try and reason with it...it helped me alot to read those forums and gain valuable information about how play this years version so far as I am normally a late buyer in February when everything runs smoothly.

[trueblue]

Can be really hard once on a bad run sets in. The secret is to stop the rut before it gets that bad. Tactics are important no doubt,, but there are other factors also to consider when setting your team out. First ,, make sure you are playing the best selection possible,, not just the better players!,sounds basic but so many people want to go with their better players everytime,,, If your star player have less then 95% fitness ,, pick another. Also morale is another biggie,,, if your first team players have less than (in the green) good morale,, esp just after a bad result,, CHANGE them if you have 2nd choice players with better morale.

As for tactics ,, if you are struggling have a look in the tactics forums,, but more often less is better,, so many keep changing stuff moving instructions trying to be clever,, and just being counter productive. Often keeping things as close to default and making little in game changes, subs, mentality etc based on whats happening in the match can be more productive.

good luck

[tomtuck01]

If your star player have less then 95% fitness ,, pick another.

Why? :confused:

[trueblue]

if they have say 92% and you have someone else with 100% I find it better to go with the fitter player to start,, you can then bring the better player on later when he can make more impact without draining him. Besides if they have 90-92 and you play em from start for another 90mins you often end up with them not match fit for your next game,,,,, its just the way i try to rotate

[jc1]

I read some tripe on these forums but even some on here are complete nonsense.

92% of a top quality player is better than a 100% of an average one.

Your tactic needn't be over complicated, just get players playing in right position, watch a few games on full view and make sure they work, if not tweak them a wee bit till they work.

Visit tactics board, it'll help.

[BiggusD]

i would play -

FB DC DC FB

DM

IF AP IF

TM

Or, when i was battered every week -

just a normal 4-4-2

no matter what i changed the settings to i lost. i find it almost impossible to use the scouts to find anyone - they just return the same players constantly or no one at all.

i find it impossible to understand what is wrong with the tactics i employ and the list goes on and on.

very simply i tried to play like real life derby with the first tactic - short passing, work into box, etc. - failed.

the normal one which was a complete disaster was as follows -

balanced and standard or counter depending on opponents.

roles

full backs - support, DC - limited - DC limited.

WM - Attack, CM box to box or ball winner, CM - deep laying play maker, WM - Attack.

Target man Support and Poacher.

with this i was trying to just get a balanced working tactic to give me time to progress - instead i set the worst string of results ive ever had in motion.

These two tactics are unlikely to work very well.

The first one: A Target Man won't move very much and two IF's will gather around him providing no width. The AP will thus struggle to find movement to playmake for.

The second: Standard/Balanced is good if you want to adjust every match according to what you see, but it is sort of between stations in every area. Limited defenders will look to play safely and clear the ball, while full backs on support will look to play the ball. A Box-to-Box or Ball winner (mostly the latter) will run a lot around and cover much ground, and thus leave a lot of space. The DLP will look for smart passes a lot and he'll hold up the ball doing so, meanwhile the Poacher and two WM's will bolt forwards ASAP to receive an early pass. Again, the Target Man has one function; holding up the ball to lay off to a teammate (in addition to being the target of crosses and set pieces of course) and he will thus drop deep to do so. His instructions aren't very good if you want him to create chances for others or himself, other than on flick-ons. Very limited. The Poacher is also limited - his function is to be on the end of passes or crosses made by his teammates. He won't contribute much in other parts of play.

The KISS principle is key here. Your setup instructs your team to play in a VERY specific way. If that fails, the limitations you have put on them makes it very difficult for them to do anything about that. I am a fan of a fluid philosophy and generalized roles. This lets your players do the work for you, rather than them relying on your genious to succeed. I am also a fan of always trying to be the best team, both home and away. "Best" is here: having the best chances, not necessarily the most shots or the most possession. I therefore rarely go into a match with a defensive tactic trying to grind out an "undeserved" result despite being the underdog. I usually use Control or Attack when building a tactic. There is no guarantee that playing conservatively will stop the opponent's attacks more than pushing up and playing attacking football, so I always start the game with an attacking tactic to see how it goes - then switch if it looks bad.

A FB-S x2, DC-D x2 defense is very simple. Some people may advice setting one of the full backs to Attack, but I think they join the attack quickly enough on Support.

A WMR-S, MCR-S, MCL-D, WL-A midfield setup provides movement between lines, backpass outlets and both quick attack and long attack options.

A DLFL-S and AFR-A partnership up front will also do this.

Is this then the correct way to play FM14? No of course not, but it is certainly a better starting point than you have posted here, as you surely can agree with. I hope to have given you a new perspective on how to approach the game.

[trueblue]

I wasn't disputing if the better player is better or not,,, but if you play someone for 90 mins who is only 92% fit,, chances are he will be below 90 for your next game and wont be ready for playing for a whole game. Besides if he is only semi fit then he aint performing at "top player standard" anyways,,, When i rest him at start of game and bring on later (if needed),, they tend to recover better and you will get the use of him for next game as well. If all is going well i will leave him on bench recovering,, but if I think I am suffering in that area then as a sub he is still avialable

Of course it depends on the quality of the players you have that can come in.. ie,,,, in my current game in LM I can play either ribbery, M.Reus or Mario Gotze,,, so rule applies for the one on best form,,, but my other choices in my current save are just as good tbh

[jayscfc]

Neither would I !

Eight defeats by three or more goals in your first nine games? Sheesh, even I'm not that bad!

As helpful as ever!

You can't judge anyone after not being able to gain promotion from the lowest level that FM14 has to offer in 47 attempts. You aren't in any position to judge anyone who plays this game.

[tieio]

Disclaimer: I hope this isn't looked at as some unnecessary reply, I am not exactly hijacking a conversation, this thread has gone off-topic and is now a debate on fitness % and who is more helpful or not, the OP has been given his advice and long since either taken the advice he was given, gone to the tactics forum, found some help or moved on to another game. The conversation as it is isn't even on topic for this forum anyway, this is a tactics forum discussion.

Oh - and please do ignore the people who are desperate to complain about the difficulty in dealing with the tactics forums or how many tactics you need in a match - I use one, occasioccasionally changing the mentality during the course of the season, and it works pretty well for me. Some people don't want to learn, they just want to hate. Dull.

and that means it is working for you on a personal level, which is great, it puts you in the minority so I can see how it is easy to take such things for granted but the average user of this game is not having such fortunes. I have zero hate for the game, otherwise I wouldn't keep trying to assist when possible. I am personally having little to no trouble playing the game but I do not come here on my own behalf most of the time. There is a user base that does not require or desire such challenges, who would prefer the game to not be so detailed and would enjoy to have it be something else, but there in lies the double edges sword of this game, everyone wants something different! It is impossible for SI to make a game that appeases everyone but hopefully they start to take some of the suggestions made to make the game more customizable. If the game becomes more customizable then a lot of the issues go away (though not all, that's just wishful thinking).

If you read a lot of the forums, and I am sure you do, then you will find a lot of people comment on the fact they feel like they have to constantly change their tactics every few minutes inside the game just to keep up, I dunno, I only work with a small number of people so perhaps our small sample size shows nothing but we do spend time on here (well, the ones of us who can handle it anyway) and it seems the things we encounter are quite common but often dismissed. I also use only one tactic and rarely if ever make changes to it, but does that mean everything is peachy for many others? I will simply quote one of the people I talked to on skype recently who tried to post for help here once:

They told me to go to the tactics forum, but you know what? I shouldn't have to go read a tactics forum in order to learn how to play the game. I spent an hour reading posts and you know what I learned? That nothing in this game it what is seems and trying to play a simple game with basic tactics is impossible unless you spend time on a forum trying to sort through 100 different opinions on how to play the game and even those opinions are difficult to find in between the multiple posts of "it's your tactics". Look at the manual, here is what it says about formations for example;

The very first thing you should take into consideration is the formation you are going to play. Or indeed, formations, because the best managers will be able to adapt their shape based on the opposition and match situation. There are two basic schools of thought on formations; pick a shape that best suits the players at your disposal, or shoe-horn your best players into an eleven and then pick the formation based on your players. The former certainly allows for more balance, although perhaps at the expense of leaving out a talented player because he doesn't 'fit'. Naturally, if your best players fit into a formation that suits them all, then you should be looking to take advantage of this as much as you can.

When a player is assigned a position, a coloured graphical indicator alongside his shirt will show you the suitability for that position. The colours match the Position indicators outlined elsewhere in this manual, so if a player is being played in a Natural role, the indicator will be bright green. If he is being played totally out of position, the indicator will be red.

From the 'Starting Tactic' section above the tactics pitch, you may select one of a number of standard formations from the 'Standard Formations' pop-up menu. The graphical pitch display will change depending on your choice. You can also manually change the formation on this display by left-clicking and holding on a shirt and dragging it away from the position it currently resides in. Available positions to move this to will be indicated by a slightly faded position icon. Release the left mouse button to place it in a new position[/Quote]

That certainly does not help a lot, why doesn't it just have a link to the tactics forums if that is how we are supposed to learn the game? What this says to me is that they are counting on you eventually going to the forums if you struggle? I seriously doubt most could be bothered or even know about the forums.[/Quote]

I agree with some of this, and how can you answer those questions? So we added him to our group, to help him figure things out with us. This is the kind of things our little FM group encounters every day. It's a game but many argue it is a community game which can be interpreted like anything else, does this mean if you need help you should go to this forum? Then that information should be included more readily in the game itself. Does that mean a few people might start FM groups? That is a decent solution too. I honestly think quite a few people take for granted how long they have been playing this game and do not understand that this place is imposing and does not appear welcoming to brand new players of this game (can't speak for them all, just the ones I have encountered). A close friend of mine posted here to ask why he was having some issues with how he interpreted the team and individual instructions that were leading to him struggling, he got two answers to his thread "it's your tactics" and "go to the tactics forums and read up, you'll find a lot of help there". He went to the tactics forum and spent a day trying to tweak his settings now he is playing a different game. One might say "Well if he gave up after just one day then so be it", to which one might say, "should it really take more than an entire day to learn to play a game?", to which some might say "it didn't take me a day", there are multiple ways this conversation can go but the bottom line is, this game is not for new users or even old users who have less time (though FMC is coming along nicely to remedy that) and I suppose it will eventually come down to whether or not that is a good thing or not, maybe it should just be for the hardcore, keeping the long time players happy is a great idea after all. I believe it can be good for new and hardcore alike. Most of the posters in here are veterans, has that occurred to anyone? If you wish to be objective take note of a posters join date when they post their issues or complaints, it is actually quite amazing how many new users come here to look for help and are never heard from again.

SI have still not learned from FM Live.

Players who lose a lot tend not to want to pay for the product.

There is a lot of truth to this, but again, many wish for the challenge and many do not. The ONLY way to accommodate this is to make the game have more settings for people to tweak and customize the game to suit the individual more. This game seems very much geared towards the hardcore FM player. Wouldn't it be nice if the difficulty of the game was adjustable and something each user could choose? Let's hope it goes that direction! Until then, we just have to try and help the ones who do log into these forums but the reality is, quite a lot of people never end up in here, they just start playing a different game.

Contrary to what some might think, I personally like the state of FM currently but I do not look at this from my own point of view. I've taken to introducing a group of new players this year to this game and thus far this "project" has been entertaining and interesting. It makes me wonder if SI grab at least one or two testers every year who have never played the game, it is amazing what a set of fresh eyes can do when wondering about how a game works. Questions that long time players would never ask that might make you think and take you back to basics in many ways. We were reading a post yesterday at one of our gatherings about how the press is almost impossible to do in the current version of the game, or something to that effect and it got a good discussion going here about it. It was amazing watching 3 of our players talking about in a way that 2 months ago they would have had no idea. I don't recall where that discussion was in the forums, maybe someone will grace us with the link before this thread is closed? I am not sure. But this made me think about how nice it would be if the PC/Mac General Discussion section actually had more discussions that weren't locked for going OT or turning into ******* matches. Such is the way of the internet I suppose.

[elland road boo boys]

Disclaimer: I hope this isn't looked at as some unnecessary reply, I am not exactly hijacking a conversation, this thread has gone off-topic and is now a debate on fitness % and who is more helpful or not, the OP has been given his advice and long since either taken the advice he was given, gone to the tactics forum, found some help or moved on to another game. The conversation as it is isn't even on topic for this forum anyway, this is a tactics forum discussion.

and that means it is working for you on a personal level, which is great, it puts you in the minority so I can see how it is easy to take such things for granted but the average user of this game is not having such fortunes. I have zero hate for the game, otherwise I wouldn't keep trying to assist when possible. I am personally having little to no trouble playing the game but I do not come here on my own behalf most of the time. There is a user base that does not require or desire such challenges, who would prefer the game to not be so detailed and would enjoy to have it be something else, but there in lies the double edges sword of this game, everyone wants something different! It is impossible for SI to make a game that appeases everyone but hopefully they start to take some of the suggestions made to make the game more customizable. If the game becomes more customizable then a lot of the issues go away (though not all, that's just wishful thinking).

If you read a lot of the forums, and I am sure you do, then you will find a lot of people comment on the fact they feel like they have to constantly change their tactics every few minutes inside the game just to keep up, I dunno, I only work with a small number of people so perhaps our small sample size shows nothing but we do spend time on here (well, the ones of us who can handle it anyway) and it seems the things we encounter are quite common but often dismissed. I also use only one tactic and rarely if ever make changes to it, but does that mean everything is peachy for many others? I will simply quote one of the people I talked to on skype recently who tried to post for help here once:

I agree with some of this, and how can you answer those questions? So we added him to our group, to help him figure things out with us. This is the kind of things our little FM group encounters every day. It's a game but many argue it is a community game which can be interpreted like anything else, does this mean if you need help you should go to this forum? Then that information should be included more readily in the game itself. Does that mean a few people might start FM groups? That is a decent solution too. I honestly think quite a few people take for granted how long they have been playing this game and do not understand that this place is imposing and does not appear welcoming to brand new players of this game (can't speak for them all, just the ones I have encountered). A close friend of mine posted here to ask why he was having some issues with how he interpreted the team and individual instructions that were leading to him struggling, he got two answers to his thread "it's your tactics" and "go to the tactics forums and read up, you'll find a lot of help there". He went to the tactics forum and spent a day trying to tweak his settings now he is playing a different game. One might say "Well if he gave up after just one day then so be it", to which one might say, "should it really take more than an entire day to learn to play a game?", to which some might say "it didn't take me a day", there are multiple ways this conversation can go but the bottom line is, this game is not for new users or even old users who have less time (though FMC is coming along nicely to remedy that) and I suppose it will eventually come down to whether or not that is a good thing or not, maybe it should just be for the hardcore, keeping the long time players happy is a great idea after all. I believe it can be good for new and hardcore alike. Most of the posters in here are veterans, has that occurred to anyone? If you wish to be objective take note of a posters join date when they post their issues or complaints, it is actually quite amazing how many new users come here to look for help and are never heard from again.

There is a lot of truth to this, but again, many wish for the challenge and many do not. The ONLY way to accommodate this is to make the game have more settings for people to tweak and customize the game to suit the individual more. This game seems very much geared towards the hardcore FM player. Wouldn't it be nice if the difficulty of the game was adjustable and something each user could choose? Let's hope it goes that direction! Until then, we just have to try and help the ones who do log into these forums but the reality is, quite a lot of people never end up in here, they just start playing a different game.

Contrary to what some might think, I personally like the state of FM currently but I do not look at this from my own point of view. I've taken to introducing a group of new players this year to this game and thus far this "project" has been entertaining and interesting. It makes me wonder if SI grab at least one or two testers every year who have never played the game, it is amazing what a set of fresh eyes can do when wondering about how a game works. Questions that long time players would never ask that might make you think and take you back to basics in many ways. We were reading a post yesterday at one of our gatherings about how the press is almost impossible to do in the current version of the game, or something to that effect and it got a good discussion going here about it. It was amazing watching 3 of our players talking about in a way that 2 months ago they would have had no idea. I don't recall where that discussion was in the forums, maybe someone will grace us with the link before this thread is closed? I am not sure. But this made me think about how nice it would be if the PC/Mac General Discussion section actually had more discussions that weren't locked for going OT or turning into ******* matches. Such is the way of the internet I suppose.

A well thought out & poignant reply

Congratulations