Standing off

[Contexx]

Typically I play a fairly pressing game, especially as my squad got better and started to play a more attacking game. I'm really not one to care too much about possession for possession's sake, although the up-tempo pressing game can certainly be attractive.

Twenty minutes into the second leg of the CL semi final against Bielsa's Monaco (scary), I had a sorry 32% possession, and what was particularly ugly is the fact that my normally organized defense was all over the place, chasing shadows and barely hanging on. I use wingbacks with no other wide players, and Mr. Loco was building along the wings, which was particularly nasty. Furthermore, every time we would try to counter or build anything, my players were surrounded, in bad positions, and got bullied off the ball.

Switching to "stand off more" helped a lot, not only in those beautiful sequences where ball would just stick to my waiting defenders, but also the transition game. Suddenly, my own numerical advantages in certain areas due to the formation were more effective. Also, because Bielsa's team was playing what seemed an Attacking strategy with a quicker tempo, it cut off their passing options, forcing them to give up possession, and eventually slow down - but only after we scored two goals from superb counterattacks.

The other example was against Conte's Juventus, who play out of the back, with their defenders and midfielders usually playing short passes until they have enough space to destroy the opposition. I managed to stop them by pushing up, playing wider, but standing off, forcing them to go more risky.

In both cases, "stand off" seemed to tell my players to calm down, not chase, and it even showed in the player motivation widget. Sometimes when hassling opponents, even when it's effective, my players seem "nervous", "anxious", or "frustrated". It was reassuring to be 2-0 up away to Monaco, with everyone "calm", and forcing the opposition to make mistakes and open up space for me.

In the next league game, against a Stokeish Citadella, who play the long direct style, it worked a treat. The idea was, simply, why close down players who are going to lump it anyway, as it would just leave unnecessary gaps. Within 20 minutes, they were forced to slow down their build up and allowed my own team to turn it up and pick them apart.

The next test was the CL final against Barcelona, and I thought, "well, it's bound to work again". It took Messi half and hour to stroll through my defense and walk it into the net. Neymar on the other hand, did what Neymar does, and ran and ran and took crazy shots from crazy places. Barca's slow build up was too effective for my players, especially considering the gap in quality. In that case, "stand off more" gave enough time to Messi and co to find sufficient gaps. At halftime, I took off that instruction and asked the team to play a quicker tempo. It worked well enough to mount a small comeback though we still lost 3-2...

With so much emphasis on the forums on hassling and pressing, I'm curious to see how different players use the standing off instructions, and what shout combinations are suitable for both maintaining organization, and countering the direct, quick tempo some AI teams use.

[bababooey]

Yeah so, I think standing off is HUGELY awesome weapon to have in your defensive arsenal. Especially if your team lacks pace at the back (which often is the case for people).

Mourinho's first tenure at Chelsea was certainly a team that didn't close down like crazy, they stood off quite a bit. This played really well into their hands because Chelsea had great tacklers and could afford to wait a bit before trying to win the ball back. Better tacklers don't always need to = more closing down / aggressive tackling. In some cases I think it make sense to have better players be a bit more patient in the tackle.

SFraser had a thread where he discussed the two types of tackling, both for big teams and smaller teams. The underdog's strategy is likely to be one of hard tackling, to bring down quality players and intrude on their space. Whereas a bigger team is more likely to waste time and fall down when tackled, and also tackle more lightly to prevent being hit on the break.

If you search through the SFraser memorial thread (can be found in the stickies on the forum) you can check it out too. A great read. RIP.

[Didaro]

I like to stand off against teams that like to run around a lot and send the ball deep. I'll just put guys between the ball and the goal and then run when I want to, not when they want me to. The ball can't do anything by itself so I see no need to chase it, I like to hang back and mark out the dangermen.

[ModernLefty]

SFraser had a thread where he discussed the two types of tackling, both for big teams and smaller teams. The underdog's strategy is likely to be one of hard tackling, to bring down quality players and intrude on their space. Whereas a bigger team is more likely to waste time and fall down when tackled, and also tackle more lightly to prevent being hit on the break.

Yeah just to follow on from bababooey, this is thread he is talking about: http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/256553-Playing-the-Tackling-Game, one of Sfraser's many great reads.

To further that point baba, one of the main reason's the modern pressing game developed is that it nullifies the need for many high quality tacklers in your team, as the pressure forces the turnovers required, without the need to tackle, which is being almost completely neutered from the game at the top level, with the harshness of cards with players being penalised for following through/late tackles etc...

An interesting technique I only realised tonight that works quite well with tactically standing off, is to oppsition instruction to not close down the DLF, in 2 striker formations as long as they are a reasonably slow, fairly low creativity type, as in not doing that, you don't create the space that they want you to do for the pacey advanced forward type that they are invariably paired up with. This then frees you up to play the control and higher pressing strategies without gaps appearing in the defensive line.

[bababooey]

Yeah just to follow on from bababooey, this is thread he is talking about: http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/256553-Playing-the-Tackling-Game, one of Sfraser's many great reads.

To further that point baba, one of the main reason's the modern pressing game developed is that it nullifies the need for many high quality tacklers in your team, as the pressure forces the turnovers required, without the need to tackle, which is being almost completely neutered from the game at the top level, with the harshness of cards with players being penalised for following through/late tackles etc...

An interesting technique I only realised tonight that works quite well with tactically standing off, is to oppsition instruction to not close down the DLF, in 2 striker formations as long as they are a reasonably slow, fairly low creativity type, as in not doing that, you don't create the space that they want you to do for the pacey advanced forward type that they are invariably paired up with. This then frees you up to play the control and higher pressing strategies without gaps appearing in the defensive line.

I joined the forums long after SFraser passed away so, I never got to read anything of his until recently. But yeah, a brilliant read no doubt. I feel like I've learned so much about football in general (not just FM).

To your point, I think more people should read that! I'm seeing so many posts about D-lines being ripped apart (and this has happened to me too in the past), and it definitely has to do with CD's closing down a deeper player, and then the gap opens, and the advanced player breezes through for an easy pass and off to goal they go.

If playing against 2 strikers there's really only a few options people have.. You can either outnumber the AI via formation, use instructions like "stand off" to retreat and close down less, or use OI's to maintain shape and stop the closing down of the strikers. There really isn't much else I don't think.

[Steve Odom]

I did join the Si forum because of Steven, and was really sad to see him pass away. While I'm certain he didn't carry all the answers, he sure was argumentative about a lot of things, like the pressing game. He made a lot of users think, in stead of try out and that would be his main accomplishment for me.

Standing off is indeed a great weapon in any virtual managers arsenal and should not be thinked lightly about. I myself use it even as a standard isntruction wjhen I consider my team to be the worst in the league. The idea behind it would be that I do not need to win any particular match, in stea I want the opposition to come my way to try and win a game they must win. Putting a lot of bodies behind the ball frustrates them enough to create openings for my team to attack them. This might result in my team having almost no shots at goal but one CC and the oppostion shooting from everywhere yet lacking any decent chance, and gives me three points when statistically I didn't deserve it. That's a tactical victory in my book and I regard FM14 the easiest iteration of the game in doing so.

While I haven't made any insightful comment as yet, to me the 'standing off' instruction should be regarded as an important one to keep the squad fir, the tactical lay-out of the team well organized and the morale up, while reducing the oppositions composure. A great weapon it is, in my book.

[Contexx]

I use stand off quite a bit against weaker, more direct teams, especially when I'm leading and they're forced to attack. I'm happy to force them to take risks and huff and puff through my defense, knowing that my players are organized enough to punish any mistakes.

One thing to keep in mind is, like all instructions, stand off more is relative to your strategy - doing so while playong counter is significantly different from, say, control strategy.

[phnompenhandy]

I just used 'stand off' for the first time today, for the opposite reason. My Skrill Premier side was drawn in the 4th round of the FA Cup at Chelsea - Oscar, Hazard, Torres. I went Defensive, Drop very deep and stand off. My boys defended brilliantly and we only lost by a single goal.

[Luizinho]

Counter Attacking is mainly used with Underdogs; however if your were to apply SFrasers advice; wouldn't Hard Tackling work against a counter attacking strategy?

[bababooey]

It all depends on the team you have!

Standing off is not necessarily "better" or "worse" in itself. Mourinho's first stint at Chelsea included a fair bit of standing off as a defense, allowing opponents to get closer to their box so they could counter into the space left behind.

In FM terms though.. being the underdog and standing off doesn't always work. For example in my latest save, the first week of the premier league season, City were beaten 3-0 by Stoke. Why? Because Stoke were extremely well organized, kept shape, and got physical with City. They fouled them 22 times, made plenty of tackles / interceptions, and disrupted City's narrow attack. Stoke scored on set pieces and a bit of luck, but they took the points regardless, and really messed with City's gameplan.

You just have to judge what is right for your team. If you don't have a physical team like Stoke you probably can't play that way described above. If you've got a superior team, sometimes it makes no sense to tackle harder and cause a mess. In fact when you're the better team it makes more sense to be a bit more cautious in the tackle, so as to not get caught on the break. Wasting time is important too!

Again here is the link to SFraser's thread: http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/256553-Playing-the-Tackling-Game

Everyone should read that x2