Constantly losing

[DANSCHOFIELD]

What should I do in the below situation -

I've set my team up in a 4-5-1 with 2cm's and 2inside forwards 1 advance playmaker and 1 advance forward.

I have currently lost 4 out of 4 and struggle to beat lower league teams in the cup. Should I completely change my formation to break out of the slump? I have no idea what to do in order to win!

[Ackter]

How do you want your team to play?

Once you've decided that, it becomes a lot easier to build a tactic around it.

[Cougar2010]

Advanced playmaker & two inside forwards all wanting to operate in the same area of the field leading to congestion in the middle and no width.

Basically like three people trying to fit through a door all at the same time

[DANSCHOFIELD]

Advanced playmaker & two inside forwards all wanting to operate in the same area of the field leading to congestion in the middle and no width.

Basically like three people trying to fit through a door all at the same time

Should I change the IF's to wingers?

Derby play like it in real life and do ok

[DANSCHOFIELD]

How do you want your team to play?

Once you've decided that, it becomes a lot easier to build a tactic around it.

Ive set them up to be passing based and work the ball into the box. All that happens is my strikers never score and I let 2 or 3 in every game

I love fm an just want to be able to play it

[Cougar2010]

Should I change the IF's to wingers?

Derby play like it in real life and do ok

As Ackter has said you need to look at your squad and make some decisions as to your formation shape.

A) Where do your squad strengths lie? Where are your weaknesses? do you have a lot of good defenders? midfielders? forwards?

B) Based on A then decide how many defenders you want to play with and how many forwards, this gives the basics of your formation.

C) In each area of the field you then need a mix of roles and duties so some players are holding their position while others are moving forwards.

Try to visualise how your team moves forward when they win the ball, who has the ball? who is he going to pass to? how are you getting the ball forwards?

Overloading the opposition central defence seems to be a common trend atm but when the opposition sit back and block this option you need width as a plan B, who is going to provide it?

Once you have an idea you could always post up a pic here or on the tactics forum and ask for advice. You'll generally get some ideas of what will or won't work.

[TOUGHGUY]

Advanced playmaker & two inside forwards all wanting to operate in the same area of the field leading to congestion in the middle and no width.

Basically like three people trying to fit through a door all at the same time

This is a very simplistic response that to me reeks of just smugly glancing at the tactics forum and picking a seemingly relevant but vague response which, however, is not necessarily tied to the in-game reality.

Why? Because this is what heat maps of an advanced playmaker and two inside forwards with the "sit narrower" individual instruction in a setup using the "play narrower" team instruction actually look like.

[Cougar2010]

This is a very simplistic response that to me reeks of just smugly glancing at the tactics forum and picking a seemingly relevant but vague response which, however, is not necessarily tied to the in-game reality.

Why? Because this is what heat maps of an advanced playmaker and two inside forwards with the "sit narrower" individual instruction in a setup using the "play narrower" team instruction actually look like.

Not sure what you are trying to get at.

It was the most obvious generic issue with the setup that the OP described, to get more detailed advice the OP needs to provide more information. I also recommended he may want to look over this current tactics first himself so he has a better idea as to what area of it he would like advice about.

Looking at your heatmaps they seem to confirm what I said in that the inside forwards and the advanced playmaker are wanting to operate in the same area of the field leading to players getting in each others way to a certain degree depending on the duties. In games where the opposition sit deeper, narrower and play on the counter it will cause issues for the OP's tactics, especially in matches where he doesn't score first.

EDIT

The second generic issue with the setup in the OP is that there is very little defensive cover (again depending on duties) leaving the two DCs very exposed with a gap between them and the MCs.

[TOUGHGUY]

Looking at your heatmaps they seem to confirm what I said in that the inside forwards and the advanced playmaker are wanting to operate in the same area of the field leading to players getting in each others way to a certain degree depending on the duties.

Our notions of "operating in the same area" differ considerably. This is the closest you can get inside forwards to an advanced playmaker. They are nowhere near in each other's way.

[Cougar2010]

Our notions of "operating in the same area" differ considerably. This is the closest you can get inside forwards to an advanced playmaker. They are nowhere near in each other's way.

They must do.

Without even looking at the heatmaps it should be obvious that those roles all want to operate in front of the opposition DCs, the two inside forwards want to cut inside while the advanced playmaker looks to get between the opposition midfield and defence.

If you think thats "nowhere near being in each others way" thats fine, but its not my opinion.

[podunkboy]

My 4-5-1 is a straight back 4 with two complete wingbacks, a DM-D, 2 CMs (DLP-s, BWM-D) 2 wingers-S and a CF-A. I generally don't like single-striker formations, but I got 32 goals in 29 games from my striker. Of course, there's some team and individual instructions, but I'm not on my home computer so don't remember what all they are.

But like everyone's saying, don't necessarily fit the team to a preconceived notion of how "Derby plays" if you don't have the players for that formation. You wouldn't want to play someone as an inside forward if they have a PPM of "likes to hug the byline".

[DANSCHOFIELD]

My misery is over. Tried everything I could think of but got sacked AGAIN. Played 15 lost 13 drew 2.

[Dagenham_Dave]

If you've 'tried everything' in 15 games, it's no wonder you're not winning!

[DANSCHOFIELD]

If you've 'tried everything' in 15 games, it's no wonder you're not winning!

I don't get any longer when I lose every week! I mean I've tried different instructions within 2 formations and not found anything remotely successful.

[Svenc]

Heatmaps are okay, but I find it a lot better to just take a look at what the shape looks like when the team are approaching the final third. It's also a bucketload less complicated, and far less open for interpretation. All you need to know you will spot right there.

The following shot is showing the attacking shape of a current supposed community super tactics. The screenshot looks as if it was taken from a set piece, but it wasn't. It's just a tactics that is encouraging all but three players (CBs, obviously, plus an anchor man), to leave their position and bomb forward. It is doing such by applying role and duty combinations that encourage such (central midfielders, attack, for instance) plus by telling the FBs to overlap. In turn it aims to to literally overrun an AI unable to just cope by changing things a little up. It's a simple numbers game the AI doesn't necessarily try to catch up with as it doesn't recognize it as such, simply throwing as many men as can forward at every opportunity. Obviously, this still doesn't always work anywhere with every team, and it's rife to be hit on the break despite the anchor man (10) in midfield.

In the following case, the user either had his AMC act as an attacking midfielder on attack duty (a combination with frequent off the ball forward runs encouraged, as is apparent when reading the tool-tip) or it was ppms that caused the AMC (10) to always immediately leave his position and occupy the exact same space as the lone forward (9) when the team attacked. Whatever the cause, alongside it was causing a huge gap in the centre of the pitch and made it impossible for his encouraged short passing game to build up to much of anywhere. The team was forced to play the flanks, and the AMC never linked midfield to forward, and never truly could massively support the forward, or assist.

The way the ME and FM are set up, this, the reshaping from the basic formation to attacking shape when going forward repeats unless you swap players or change roles and duties. As such it is not necessary to watch the entire match. Take a look at two or three sequences in which the team has possession and moves forward, presto. Often people also don't take PPMs into account. For instance, there are those that make a player "get forward at every opportunity" (or vice versa), or cut inside, or stay wide, which will cause such movement to happen no matter what role and duty. In the above shot, for instance, the FB overlapping (2) on the right flank could equally push forward because of a PPM, a team instruction or the role/duty given. No matter what you do, you will never keep Robben from cutting inside fairly frequently. Even your planned for holding player in central midfield can be affected, which obviously you likely won't want as you want him to hold his basic position rather than leave it and make forward runs (or "runs from deep", as the old slider had it).

As such it's hard to tell what is really causing the the massive misery the OP seems to suffer. He didn't post any duties, nothing. Could well be that he really just needs to do likewise and be able to spot the gaps or where players are really occupying the same spaces, making it firstly harder to build up play and secondly easy to defend due to players occupying same same spaces on the pitch.

Could also be that he's managing Barnsley, heh.

[DANSCHOFIELD]

I'll post up my tactics soon. I was managing derby and believe half the problem to be me trying to make them play like Stevie Mac has them playing in real life.

They have the players to pull off a 4 2 3 1 but obviously it leaves them lacking somewhere, I couldn't work out where in 5 attempts - got to January once before I got sacked - the other times I pretty much lost every game.

[DizzyPenguin]

Lol, better luck sixth time mate. Keep going :-)

[iMan]

It's part of the rewarding experience mate. Real life football management is full of failures and sackings.

It's not like this is a game or anything mate. It's a ''simulation''.

[braceletwinner]

I'll post up my tactics soon. I was managing derby and believe half the problem to be me trying to make them play like Stevie Mac has them playing in real life.

They have the players to pull off a 4 2 3 1 but obviously it leaves them lacking somewhere, I couldn't work out where in 5 attempts - got to January once before I got sacked - the other times I pretty much lost every game.

What worked for me (aside from reading the top 3 stickied tactics threads) was to concentrate on one thing at a time. I know football is really about a balance of everything (not equally balanced, just a balance that works for your team), but I worked on defense first, then attack, then other things like set pieces, creating better chances, etc... One very useful learning tool was one I read in one of Cleon's threads: Pause the match at crucial intervals to have a look at your team's shape and how the other team is reacting to it. I had been just watching the flow of matches, but I still wasn't getting what was wrong. Pausing the game immediately after kickoff, when possession has changed, on a counter, defending a counter, etc... and having a serious look will give you a much better indicator of exactly what's happening on the pitch. Just use that info to change formation, roles, duties, or even players (depending on PPMs). Also check every match's analysis to see where you're leaking goals. They may all be from set pieces, for example. If so, work on that the most. It is pretty obvious, but I've been where you are and I was forgetting some basics just out of frustration.

[DANSCHOFIELD]

Above is the first tactic - aim to play like real life derby.

Above is the second tactic, a response to being walloped, aim to keep others out!

played 15, lost 13 and drew 2. Arranged friendlies with the kids to get some wins haha

[Lord Rowell]

Above is the first tactic - aim to play like real life derby.

Your first tactic will likely have 4 attacking players flying ahead in isolation from two CM's (your BBM and BWM) who both will run around like headless chickens. Where are the players that hold position, give you some stability, are there to break up play, or just receive the ball and play it simple?

Then, look at the relationship of those players to your back 4. All on defence, no-one nudging forward.

You have a very difficult combination of a front 6 running around all over the place disconnected from a back 4 who all just stay back. Sorry Dan but I'm not surprised you're losing games

Add to that your team instructions are as if you're trying to play like Barcelona - you're not Barcelona. Keep it simple. Specifically, LFBs are NOT likely to overlap.

I'm only posting on your 1st tactic here but...

- Change 2 of those front 4 roles to support duties so they can link with your midfield.

- Get rid of the team instructions for now and re-assess. Look at your team report and see where you have strengths / weaknesses e.g. if you have a lot of pace, pass into space. If you have good workrate, teamwork etc, feel free to hassle - but base your instructions on what you're good at.

- Give one of your 2 CM's a more stable role e.g. a DM rather than a BWM.

- Make one of your back 4 at least a support duty

See how the above goes and give them time.

[DANSCHOFIELD]

Something i did notice which would support the 'headless chicken' comment was that the 2 CM always had crap ratings - especially Bryson, who is arguably the best player Derby have!

[Lord Rowell]

You may have different opinions on the players but tbh I think if you played with those tactics as Barca or Madrid, you'd underperform, for the reasons I mentioned above.

My headless chicken remark was based on the fact you have a BBM who charges up & down the field, and a BWM who runs around after the ball.

If the BBM goes forward, who stays back to cover his space?

If your BWM charges in to try and win the ball, who covers the space if he fails to win his tackle?

You need to ask yourself those questions and then set up your team in a way that can answer them.

[Cougar2010]

Above is the first tactic - aim to play like real life derby.

Lord Rowell has already covered the main issue, all four attackers on attack duty running forward,not being available to receive the ball when you go forwards. You also have two inside forwards so a lot of your play is directed down the middle (Easy to defend against), you aren't stretching the defence with width. You are looking for the overlap but both your fullbacks are on defend orders. Gaps between your defence & midfield and between your midfield & forwards leaves you having problems getting the ball forwards and when you do you encourage them to all run into the same area and shoot quickly rather than wait for options.

Above is the second tactic, a response to being walloped, aim to keep others out!

played 15, lost 13 and drew 2. Arranged friendlies with the kids to get some wins haha

Arguably very slightly better but still several issues, inside forwards, massive gap between front four and the defence. The three players in the AM strata running forwards and not looking for the ball when the defence want to get it forwards. Two DMs doing chasing duties rather than something useful with the ball and again no width.

[braceletwinner]

...massive gap between front four and the defence. The three players in the AM strata running forwards and not looking for the ball when the defence want to get it forwards. Two DMs doing chasing duties rather than something useful with the ball and again no width.

The massive gap can be acceptable if your player's roles fit the system. I play a 4-2-0-2-2 mostly, and my defense is rock-solid (well, in the Brazilian league anyway). I have a DM usually on Anchor, and the other as a DLP(s). One of my two AMs is an AP(s), with the other filling an attack role. One of my forwards is usually a DLF(s), so the gap is never that huge - they link up very well. It resembles a 4-1-2-2-1 at times. I haven't played against a team that employs a flat 3-5-2 or anything that really packs the midfield, but against most formations/strategies it seems to work.

[Cougar2010]

The massive gap can be acceptable if your player's roles fit the system. I play a 4-2-0-2-2 mostly, and my defense is rock-solid (well, in the Brazilian league anyway). I have a DM usually on Anchor, and the other as a DLP(s). One of my two AMs is an AP(s), with the other filling an attack role. One of my forwards is usually a DLF(s), so the gap is never that huge - they link up very well. It resembles a 4-1-2-2-1 at times. I haven't played against a team that employs a flat 3-5-2 or anything that really packs the midfield, but against most formations/strategies it seems to work.

The gap is not caused by no-one in the midfield strata and as you rightly point out there is no problem with that if you have link up roles/duties between your DMs & your AMs.

Dan has DMs on defend and AMs on attack though which makes that natural gap massive with no link up.

[Loki679]

It does seem the intuitive thing to do to give your defenders 'defend' duty tbf. Decent feature but not the most descriptive naming system

[braceletwinner]

The gap is not caused by no-one in the midfield strata and as you rightly point out there is no problem with that if you have link up roles/duties between your DMs & your AMs.

Dan has DMs on defend and AMs on attack though which makes that natural gap massive with no link up.

Of course. I should have said, "apparent massive gap", but his duties are actually what made the gap that big.

[braceletwinner]

It does seem the intuitive thing to do to give your defenders 'defend' duty tbf. Decent feature but not the most descriptive naming system

Yes. There have been loads of threads about how intuitive (or not) that system is. I agree that it should be much easier for someone new to the game to create a viable tactic.

[DANSCHOFIELD]

Any better?

[Cougar2010]

Much better Dan, looks more balanced with people running between the lines.

Some of the midfield/forward players are holding their runs while others are pushing forwards so you have different passing options.

Next step is to watch the games IMO, I use comprehensive highlights. The areas I would keep an eye on to see if they are working or not are:

A) CWB (A) - Should be ok going forward although I've found my fullbacks not doing well on attack orders, check he doesn't get caught up field too often when the opposition counter.

B) Your left hand side - Your FB on defend and your AML cutting in might mean you are short of width on the left, just see how it goes.

C) AP (A) - He might struggle on attack orders to link the play from defense to attack as he is running upfield when you win possession. Again just watch to make sure he is getting plenty of the ball and that he is available for passes.

[DANSCHOFIELD]

Much better Dan, looks more balanced with people running between the lines.

Some of the midfield/forward players are holding their runs while others are pushing forwards so you have different passing options.

Next step is to watch the games IMO, I use comprehensive highlights. The areas I would keep an eye on to see if they are working or not are:

A) CWB (A) - Should be ok going forward although I've found my fullbacks not doing well on attack orders, check he doesn't get caught up field too often when the opposition counter.

B) Your left hand side - Your FB on defend and your AML cutting in might mean you are short of width on the left, just see how it goes.

C) AP (A) - He might struggle on attack orders to link the play from defense to attack as he is running upfield when you win possession. Again just watch to make sure he is getting plenty of the ball and that he is available for passes.

I've been reading the stickies in the tactics forum - it's a lot to take in but it explains how the game thinks. I believe SI Should include a tutorial for those of us struggle to keep up with the mechanisms behind the player instructions, positions etc.

[DANSCHOFIELD]

Well, the first friendly, away to Den Bosch, resulted in a comprehensive defeat (3-0). Passing to one another was near on impossible and as a result We managed to create no clear cut chances and finished with 63/37 against possession stats. Every played looked liked they just come off the beach so hopefully next game will be an improvement.

How long should I stick with the formation before changing anything?

[Ryknow]

For a while. Firstly your players need to learn it. You can't make huge judgements off one game mainly for the obvious fact that the opposition could have been far greater than you. However, you can learn a lot of things. Try pausing the game at random intervals and see where your players are.

I'd probably switch Hughes and Bryson around as when Adam Smith bombs forward, so is Hughes leaving the right flank exposed. However, if you switched Hughes (AP) would then be getting in Wards (IF) way. So maybe setting Hughes to support role (in the current spot he is) and see how he does, you can always add instructions later.

One thing I'm certain of is getting Adam Smith forward. I have him at Rangers, been there 3-4 years and he's fantastic. When playing away you might want to adjust his setting to Wingback (support) so you don't get so exposed.

I'd probably set Forsyth to fullback (support) and Ward to Inside Forward (attack) but all depends on what you are looking for, the players PPMs and where you're at home/away. Tried Counter on away games?

All that aside, don't go madly changing your settings and lineup. See how things go, especially the player movement.

[Svenc]

For a while. Firstly your players need to learn it. You can't make huge judgements off one game mainly for the obvious fact that the opposition could have been far greater than you. However, you can learn a lot of things. Try pausing the game at random intervals and see where your players are.

In terms of positioning, as argued above, there is no much need for such commitment should you not want to do it every time. Hitting the pause button when your team approaches the final third two or three times is decent. Nicely utilized can be the time bar at the bottom of the match screen which lets you move back and forth in between match action however you wish after a match has wrapped. Naturally, it isn't roles and duties that determine match play, but they are the most important thing to decide upon by far, imho.

The way the ME and FM are set up, this, the reshaping from the basic formation to attacking shape when going forward repeats unless you swap players or change roles and duties. As such it is not necessary to watch the entire match. Take a look at two or three sequences in which the team has possession and moves forward, presto.

Yes, things might not always look the exact same each and every time. But you will see how your roles and duties (and PPMs) affect the shape of your team immediately: who is going to hold his (defensive) position, who is going forward, etc. Are there any positional gaps, etc. see also the above screenshots. The formation picked, Dan: The basic (defending) formation of your team. What then becomes off it when in posession and moving forward can be something entirelly different, and is affected by the roles and duties you pick (if you hover the mouse over them, you will see a text describing their intent, both in terms of on the ball decision making as well as positioning). Again, be aware that some players have personal traits (PPMS) which can also affect both. I recently tried to merely hold onto a lead late into the game, let my team get pushed back and a "gets forward whenever possible" PPM of one of my fullbacks almost cost me the game. Gentlemen, check your players' profiles.

Also, looking at the initial set-up in post #21, which looks a bit like "exploiting" tactics of FM 2011/2012 era, that is with 6 players defending (and frustrating an AI that doesn't adapt by pushing more men forward to tear the wall more effectly down whilst still getting hit on the break in parts duo to an ME defending weakness), a mere look at point 4 in wwfan's rough guide lines and following it to the letter without understanding what it's at all about would have already seen a 100% improvement in results, guaranteed. :-)

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/366111-How-to-Play-FM14-A-Twelve-Step-Guide?

[Football Manager.]

Also I know you're ignoring what your players actually are for example Craig Forsyth is an attacking left back and not great defensivly so you're ignoring his strengths and playing to his weakness ? Recipe for becoming a member of the sacked by Christmas club!

[DANSCHOFIELD]

Also I know you're ignoring what your players actually are for example Craig Forsyth is an attacking left back and not great defensivly so you're ignoring his strengths and playing to his weakness ? Recipe for becoming a member of the sacked by Christmas club!

Firstly, thanks for all the input!

With regards to Craig Forsyth, I don't want two wing backs bombing on because my defence is rated very poorly when compared to the league averages. I'm looking at replacing him with a much better defensive FB. For the time being I've tried to limit his attacking instinct, would it be better to let him push on?

[sporadicsmiles]

You can balance having two attacking full backs by having your defensive midfielder as a half-back (if he is suitable for that role, anyway). I use this to great effect to give my sides extra width. You end up playing with what looks like a back three when you have the ball. Something else you can try.

I also found it very advantageous to have a CM(A) and a AP/DLP(S) (depending on where I expect there to be space - if a team plays with DMC, I play DLP; if they play with AMC I play a AP). The point there is the CM(A) gets forward and can arrive late in the box/make good runs for someone to put him through on goal. I have Honda as my top scorer at the moment playing like this with a similar basic shape as you.

Keep on trucking, you will be so satisfied when you get it right =}.

[DANSCHOFIELD]

I'm 3 competitive games into my new season and have the following record -

League P2, D1, L1

League Cup; won AET against Oldham.

The draw in the league was against Blackburn. i withstood heavy pressure after taking the lead and succumbed to an equaliser. Second up was Brighton away; took the lead and eventually conceded 3 - more or less constant pressure again. However, my team are playing well and look dangerous in parts.

My concern is that i'm going the way of the previous 5 seasons - no wins!!

Main tactic -

Tactic employed to hold on to draw against Blackburn (i thought this was bound to fail but it stopped them getting through for over 40 minutes) -

[DANSCHOFIELD]

Just totally bossed Leicester in terms of possession but lost 0-2!! They had 2 attacks and scored off both!

So frustrating

[braceletwinner]

Just totally bossed Leicester in terms of possession but lost 0-2!! They had 2 attacks and scored off both!

So frustrating

Possession doesn't mean very much if you're not creating chances.

[DANSCHOFIELD]

Possession doesn't mean very much if you're not creating chances.

This is the problem - only creating a few half chances.

I may have now fixed this issue though. I now employ Hughes as an advanced playmaker (attack or support) and have since controlled possession and picked up a league win and a cup win. 2-1 away to Yeovil and 3-0 away to Swindon, also, I'm still controlling possession.

[DANSCHOFIELD]

as you can see i'm doing far better but struggling, recently, for consistency. Any ideas how to get my strong early season form back?

[Luke159]

as you can see i'm doing far better but struggling, recently, for consistency. Any ideas how to get my strong early season form back?

Wow all you did is draw and then loose the following game, these things happen and if you think that's your team going down hill then wow no wonder this forum is full of people complaining about the game been so hard.