Are some matches fixed?

Bestieboy666 · January 26, 2014

Hi Guys

Been playing FM2014 for a while now. Got Crewe from League 1 to the Premiership so happy with that. Only bought a few players as I'm building up the youth team. Some great prospects (Star/World Class !!)in there but still too young to be regular first team players. However I did reach 7th place in the 2016/17 season. I was actually in 3rd spot only requiring 1 point in my last game that I lost at home to the team 2nd to bottom. Annoyed the hell out of me as those below me all won and I dropped to 7th. It still got me in the Euro Cup though. Knocked out in the 2nd knock out stage.

So my gripe is the 2017/18 season. I was in 7th place (Euro Cup) with one game to go, 3 points clear of Everton although they had a better goal difference. So I needed 1 point. I decided to save the game after the previous season experience. So I'm at home to Swansea. Bottom of the table. P 37 W 2 D 3 L32.

Of course I lost 3-1 & Everton won. I thought I'd try again. So 17 saves later (so far) using one of the 3 tactics I had used over 5 seasons I still couldn't even get a draw. This surely can't be possible? I tried various team selection combinations & tactics, all that had proved mostly successful over all previous seasons.

So in some situations is the game programmed to beat you whatever you do.

Another interesting match was an away game to Liverpool. I was 3-0 up in the 88th minute. I then scored an own goal in the 89/90/91/92 minutes and lost 4-3 hmm.

Sorry for prattling on.

Steve

eple · January 26, 2014

No, they are not fixed, but the circumstances leading up to the match (if you saved just before the game) will be identical, and from what you say it doesn't sound like they are in your favor. Perhaps its down to form & moral, perhaps you said the wrong thing at the last team talk or in the media and your players are highly complacent. I don't know, but something is causing it.

podunkboy · January 26, 2014

1. Yes: SI has programmed in the quadrillion possible game combinations specifically to keep you out of your intended position.

or.

2. No: It's your tactics/random chance/your team just consistently had a bad game.

DizzyPenguin · January 26, 2014

eple's response could have something in it. But it still seems a bit odd just considering Swansea's record. Just 2 wins in 37 games (and were either of then away?) and yet they beat you 17 tines in a row.

I think it's wrong to restart game at any point (personally) but it's your game and I suppose if people didn't then we wouldn't find stuff like this out.

And it does seem strange.... :-/

Ricey · January 26, 2014

I have a similar experience.

I lost in the FA cup 1st round to team several standards below me with an awful squad compared to mine.

As an experiment, I saved the game and then I reloaded the game to a previous save and lost 5 more times regardless of my team/tactical choices.

I even holidayed for two of the games to see if that made a difference.

(I was always going to let the original result stand because I wasn't really bothered as I had no interest in the FA cup)

But it does seem weird.

Dagenham_Dave · January 26, 2014

eple's response could have something in it. But it still seems a bit odd just considering Swansea's record. Just 2 wins in 37 games (and were either of then away?) and yet they beat you 17 tines in a row.

They didn't beat him 17 times in a row. They beat him once. The other games cease to exist as soon as you reload.

nozshand · January 26, 2014

They didn't beat him 17 times in a row. They beat him once. The other games cease to exist as soon as you reload.

I thought the op was saying he reloaded game 17 times and all lost, which translate to 17 times in a row

Cougar2010 · January 26, 2014

I thought the op was saying he reloaded game 17 times and all lost, which translate to 17 times in a row

Its not, he lost the same game 17 times.

As has been said by the time the OP saved several factors had already happened, a match starts with your post match teamtalk from the previous game. Even so as long as his three set tactics aren't rubbish if he uploaded his save someone would win the match very quickly.

Dagenham_Dave · January 26, 2014

I thought the op was saying he reloaded game 17 times and all lost, which translate to 17 times in a row

No it doesn't. There is no 'in a row' in such a scenario. It's one game. Regardless of how many times you reload it.

RobertPage · January 26, 2014

No it doesn't. There is no 'in a row' in such a scenario. It's one game. Regardless of how many times you reload it.

That argument is stupid and pointless. The fact is no matter what the situation, for a team doing so well to have a 1 in 17 chance of winning is terrible. Every game he replayed it would have been different and different things would have happened. Many strong supporters of the game constantly deny this but i believe that certain games are almost impossible to win at times regardless of tactics, team talks, morale or anything like that. I wouldn't say at all that the game is fixed but what i would say is that there are times in the game where it favours a certain result and the match engine works towards making these things happen and makes it very difficult for other results to happen. My example of this is in FM 13 where i was 3 games away from the end of the season and had the bottom of the table team at home (think it was swansea) and i absolutely dominated this game and i lost to a stupid own goal. I rage quitted and then later on i replayed the game, dominated again but still lost. I must have replayed the game about 6 or 7 times, dominated every time, missed chances galore but kept losing. after the 3rd loss i changed tactics and team talk but same result. In the end i scraped a 0-0 draw finally. The point is though that the result should have been a very unlikely result. It should never have taken such effort to have got a draw from that but because the way the game works this happens at times. It can happen in the most outrages ways at times that has infuriated me in the past. It's certainly something built into the game to make the game longer into a season more realistic, but as i say, it can make it infuriating to play the game at times

rinso · January 27, 2014

No, they are not fixed, but the circumstances leading up to the match (if you saved just before the game) will be identical, and from what you say it doesn't sound like they are in your favor. Perhaps its down to form & moral, perhaps you said the wrong thing at the last team talk or in the media and your players are highly complacent. I don't know, but something is causing it.

This. If you save right before the match, then everything leading up to the match is locked in, so morale, press conferences, etc are all there n set, so is it any wonder that it keeps producing the same result?

Funny how nobody ever saves n reloads after they win a match they should never have won, or question the match engine when they've been played off the pitch but still won....

Dagenham_Dave · January 27, 2014

Many strong supporters of the game constantly deny this but i believe that certain games are almost impossible to win at times regardless of tactics, team talks, morale or anything like that

People who deny this aren't strong supporters of the game, they are more strong supporters of the facts.

themadsheep2001 · January 27, 2014

That argument is stupid and pointless. The fact is no matter what the situation, for a team doing so well to have a 1 in 17 chance of winning is terrible. Every game he replayed it would have been different and different things would have happened. Many strong supporters of the game constantly deny this but i believe that certain games are almost impossible to win at times regardless of tactics, team talks, morale or anything like that. I wouldn't say at all that the game is fixed but what i would say is that there are times in the game where it favours a certain result and the match engine works towards making these things happen and makes it very difficult for other results to happen. My example of this is in FM 13 where i was 3 games away from the end of the season and had the bottom of the table team at home (think it was swansea) and i absolutely dominated this game and i lost to a stupid own goal. I rage quitted and then later on i replayed the game, dominated again but still lost. I must have replayed the game about 6 or 7 times, dominated every time, missed chances galore but kept losing. after the 3rd loss i changed tactics and team talk but same result. In the end i scraped a 0-0 draw finally. The point is though that the result should have been a very unlikely result. It should never have taken such effort to have got a draw from that but because the way the game works this happens at times. It can happen in the most outrages ways at times that has infuriated me in the past. It's certainly something built into the game to make the game longer into a season more realistic, but as i say, it can make it infuriating to play the game at times

At no point does this happen, nor is it built in. As confirmed repeated by PaulC. You can take that as a fact.

barto123 · January 27, 2014

When I used to do the save/reload thing a while ago I noticed this happening as well. I even tested it in FM12, by saving 4 days out from some matches and seeing if it made a difference (it did). The lead up to a match has A LOT of influence over how the team plays, but I cant seem to work out why exactly.

Also, if you do manage to win one of these matches that you have to reload a lot for, you will ALWAYS get a press conference afterwards saying what a good win it was, even though half the time its against a rubbish team who you would be expected to beat. So its like the game knows its a hard matchup and congratulates you afterwards

rinso · January 27, 2014

When I used to do the save/reload thing a while ago I noticed this happening as well. I even tested it in FM12, by saving 4 days out from some matches and seeing if it made a difference (it did). The lead up to a match has A LOT of influence over how the team plays, but I cant seem to work out why exactly.
Also, if you do manage to win one of these matches that you have to reload a lot for, you will ALWAYS get a press conference afterwards saying what a good win it was, even though half the time its against a rubbish team who you would be expected to beat. So its like the game knows its a hard matchup and congratulates you afterwards

Because it is a different save, so different things happen. Players respond differently to training, to manager comments, to injuries etc etc etc It is bound to make a difference if you save n reload days before a game rather that right before it...

barto123 · January 27, 2014

Because it is a different save, so different things happen. Players respond differently to training, to manager comments, to injuries etc etc etc It is bound to make a difference if you save n reload days before a game rather that right before it...

You are right. But what I found was it had a larger affect than anything else really on the outcome of the result. Tactics used during the matches, players selected, team talks, all seemed to not have much effect. Its a weird situation.

I will say this though, the game isnt cheating. But I think it knows when a match was always going to be hard for you to win, judging by the press conference thing afterwards

MasterOfSuspense · January 27, 2014

Are some matches fixed?

In real life - certainly

In FM - no chance

rinso · January 27, 2014

In real life - certainly
In FM - no chance

Depends if you're playing in Italy i think...

MasterOfSuspense · January 27, 2014

For those that think 20 shots on goal for the home team and one for the away team and the result is 0-1 is a bug in FM then check out a few Canadian results :lol:

tieio · January 27, 2014

For those that think 20 shots on goal for the home team and one for the away team and the result is 0-1 is a bug in FM then check out a few Canadian results

It is unrealistic as a common occurrence in the English Premier League, though it happens sometimes. In FM14? It is a common occurrence for many players. That is a fact. I don't have this issue but it is something that happens to a large portion of people who play this game. There is no fixed games, that much is obvious but the results in multiple saves from an awful lot of users speak for themselves.

GabrieleGallagher · January 27, 2014

I don't think if they had replayed the famous Celtic - Barcellona 2-1 (2012) 17 times from ten minutes to start, Celtic would have won every single game.

In that match I think everything was due to coincidence (that is why football is great) but I don't think Celtic won due to their lead up to the match.

So in circumstances like these, I think there's something wrong with the game, IMHO.

By the way sometimes I have the opposite situation: same lead up to the match, same tactics, etc: I play the same match 5 times and everytime is a completely different match, that is as strange as above. In one game I've led 3-0 at halftime (12-0 shotsongoal) and in another I lost 4-0 without taking a single shot.

Remember it's a game.

Kenco · January 27, 2014

The game must be fixed in reverse for me, as whenever I get near the end of the season I always seem to finish strongly with a winning streak, while my rivals always drop points in games they should be winning easily and I end up snatching the league title when it looked impossible with a handful of games to go.

How on earth do SI manage to program in these 'fixed' matches which only seem to happen for a few FMers? Baffling.

Dagenham_Dave · January 27, 2014

I don't think if they had replayed the famous Celtic - Barcellona 2-1 (2012) 17 times from ten minutes to start, Celtic would have won every single game.

Thing is, you have absolutely no way of knowing this as it's impossible for it to happen in real life, so there's no precedent whatsoever. Another reason why replaying the same game in FM is completely pointless.

GabrieleGallagher · January 27, 2014

You're technically right, but we all know that it would not be possible for Celtic to win 17 times against Barcellona. Be honest

Dagenham_Dave · January 27, 2014

You're technically right, but we all know that it would not be possible for Celtic to win 17 times against Barcellona. Be honest

Not if they played them 17 times in a row, no. But this isn't what's being discussed. It's playing the exact same game over and over.

People cannot seem to differentiate the two scenarios here.

Svenc · January 27, 2014

17 times a reload and no home win against inferior opposition? Unless squad morale is bunked, that sounds highly unlikely, regardless of the small influence of build-up to the match already being fixed.

However: Just uploading the save will sort this out quickly, as always the case. At least somebody will nick the win quickly. What the issue is might be another thing completely. "Using all of the 3 tactics I saved" sounds eventual resorting to a mere just trial&error, for a start though. Still sounds unlikely, but without uploading nobody can say a thing for sure.

milnerpoint · January 27, 2014

Not if they played them 17 times in a row, no. But this isn't what's being discussed. It's playing the exact same game over and over.
People cannot seem to differentiate the two scenarios here.

Yeah exactly this.

GabrieleGallagher · January 27, 2014

Even if they are not different games but THE SAME MATCH replayed, there are random facts that occour minutes and seconds AFTER the match has been restarted, so every match cannot be identic to the previous, so I still say that results have to be different.

Two or three seconds after THE SAME MATCH has been replayed, they will be different career. No doubt about it.

nozshand · January 27, 2014

Not if they played them 17 times in a row, no. But this isn't what's being discussed. It's playing the exact same game over and over.
People cannot seem to differentiate the two scenarios here.

what, same players but every decision will be remade during the game thus its not the same game

milnerpoint · January 27, 2014

Even if they are not different games but THE SAME MATCH replayed, there are random facts that occour minutes and seconds AFTER the match has been restarted, so every match cannot be identic to the previous, so I still say that results have to be different.
Two or three seconds after THE SAME MATCH has been replayed, they will be different career. No doubt about it.

Unless he got the same score line 17 times in a row, with the same scorers at the exact same times, from the exact same type of goals, then each result is different. The final result is one part of a game of football.

RTHerringbone · January 27, 2014

This thread must be getting close to the inevitable by now.....

jimbob1000 · January 27, 2014

At no point does this happen, nor is it built in. As confirmed repeated by PaulC. You can take that as a fact.

OR........................................................what we have to believe to be able to carry on posting here lol

Lets be honest, if it was ever to come out that the match engine WAS bent, then the backlash on the Collyers and SI would be phenomenal, simple as that.

sporadicsmiles · January 27, 2014

Although I agree with the premise that you did not lose 17 times in a row, the situation is in fact kind of like experimental repeats starting from identical initial conditions (well, it would be if you saved just before the game and used the same team and team talk). If this is the case, then doing a large number of repeats of the same game should give you some kind of statistical distribution of results. This would tell you something about that particular game, such as how likely the set of initial conditions you have are to allow you to win this game. You would of course need to repeat this for many different initial conditions if you wanted to explore exactly how certain things affect the result of the game.

In reality of course, it is not as simple as that. I imagine that FM is not really a simple deterministic phenomenon - that is small changes in the initial conditions can lead to big changes in the outcome. Also, to have meaningful statistics with any kind of significance you would need to repeat a few hundred times. But still, I do not feel that dismissing such repitition of games outright is the correct thing to do. There is almost certainly some useful information to be taken from such trials.

braceletwinner · January 27, 2014

We had a similar thread a couple of weeks ago, and I chimed in then with my experience. This does happen, but I think it's down to the Random Number Generator rather than any specific programming. If you do save immediately before the start of the match, the random seed is set, so some things are more likely to happen again and again. It will never be exactly the same, but weird results will happen. In my case, my first-place team suffered a 9-3 loss against a newly promoted side who otherwise scored ~20 goals all season - replayed twelve times until I won one. I didn't keep the win for my season - that was done purely as an experiment after seeing other weirdness - but it's a bit more evidence that freak/impossible stuff happens in this game. (Name one team in history that was top of any domestic league after 30 games that then allowed nine goals to a newly promoted side.) Again, I am not saying the game is programmed so that we lose any particular match, just that the RNG sucks sometimes, so that "impossible" results are possible.

buddiemirren · January 27, 2014

Statistically this forms the basis of fixed odds betting. Using the OP's example, if the same game was played on 17 computers simultaneously( replicating the exact same data & conditions) would have he achieved the same set of results as playing the same game 17 times on the same computer? Assuming the computer has no effect on them software it would seem logical to assume so. In fixed odds terms to have lost the 'same' game 17 times would mean odds of less than 18-1 on on that single event occurrence. Whilst it is clear the game is not fixed in the terms it intentionally sets out to cheat, it should also be extremely clear that it is the software & fixed algorithms within that determines the outcome of any mathematical calculation from a fixed point.

buddiemirren · January 27, 2014

We had a similar thread a couple of weeks ago, and I chimed in then with my experience. This does happen, but I think it's down to the Random Number Generator rather than any specific programming. If you do save immediately before the start of the match, the random seed is set, so some things are more likely to happen again and again. It will never be exactly the same, but weird results will happen. In my case, my first-place team suffered a 9-3 loss against a newly promoted side who otherwise scored ~20 goals all season - replayed twelve times until I won one. I didn't keep the win for my season - that was done purely as an experiment after seeing other weirdness - but it's a bit more evidence that freak/impossible stuff happens in this game. (Name one team in history that was top of any domestic league after 30 games that then allowed nine goals to a newly promoted side.) Again, I am not saying the game is programmed so that we lose any particular match, just that the RNG sucks sometimes, so that "impossible" results are possible.

Yep, agree with this & the post above. Pretty much to do with the software, number generation, data in, etc etc. and is worthy of some examination and not the usual disdain shown by some.

milnerpoint · January 27, 2014

But none of the games are decided from a fixed point. What is set a few days before a game are the effects of the previous game, events during the week prior to the next game, press conferences and various other things. Even then, every single game is still winnable even if all of those things have gone against you (which they very rarely do). There are no fixed points of results in FM as things change constantly, from a single tactical change, even changing one player from defend to support can change the outcome of a game.

That is why these threads are always quickly stamped out. There is no fixing in FM, every game to an extent is winnable, if things are done right.

braceletwinner · January 27, 2014

That is why these threads are always quickly stamped out. There is no fixing in FM, every game to an extent is winnable, if things are done right.

In some extremely rare cases, after 12 or 17 tries, this is true.

GabrieleGallagher · January 27, 2014

Ahah I'm experiencing it right now: Hertha, I'm 4th against Amburg 17th, played my match for the 8th times, no way I can score a single goal.

In total we should be something like 13 goals vs ZERO.

It's my tactic, the same tactic that led me to draw vs Bayern and win vs Borussia

ps: remember it's a game even if somehow frustrating

Dagenham_Dave · January 27, 2014

I'll never understand why people do this. Play the game, accept the result, move on.

OxfordUnitedFC · January 27, 2014

I'll never understand why people do this. Play the game, accept the result, move on.

Maybe its an age thing. Game used to make me pretty mad when i was younger, now i just accept results and move on.

GabrieleGallagher · January 27, 2014

I always accept the result and move on, today is an experiment gaming day due to this thread.

Svenc · January 27, 2014

Just upload. You'll see. http://www.file-upload.net/

Luke159 · January 27, 2014

I've been in the same situation, I was 1 game way from the end of the season and I only needed a draw to get through to the play off's. I had saved on the day of the match and no matter what I said in the team talks I still lost 2-0. I reloaded several times and at some point I should have had a different result. How this felt was like lightening striking the same spot every time. Those who wish to defend the game can do so and I do expect many to do so, as was the case for LMA 07 when we had most people complaining of players not training the correct skills for their position so GK's became good strikers and midfielders became good GK's etc. We had many saying there is nothing wrong with the game (obviously playing a different game to the other thousands who had reported the exact same problems). The point all games have dedicated supporters, sadly not all of them are willing to accept there is a problem when its right under their nose.

But I'm not here to turn this into a flame thread, I just like to no how after several reloads I always lost by 2-0. This would make me believe that the match results are pre-determined before the day of the match.

GabrieleGallagher · January 27, 2014

Meanwhile I played my 9th and 10th game, conceded 4 more goals and scored ...zero.

I think I have to accept it, I don't want to stay here til tomorrow

EDIT: Went on holiday for 1day with same tactics and players .. won 3-0. How can we say everything is ok?

Svenc · January 27, 2014

The point all games have dedicated supporters, sadly not all of them are willing to accept there is a problem when its right under their nose.

True story. That goes both ways though. From personal experience no feedback providing pkms and/or save files can be really trusted. This is a game played and picked up by hundreds of thousands of people year in year out. Too many misconceptions about how the game works and about football in general. The claim that not a single reload out of 17 against an inferior opponent produced results (not even a draw) already sounds highly dubious itself. Hence, without the user providing any usable data, this is futile. There are various things in FM that could cause this, not all are tactical errors, but there is headroom for this and much else, and some of it would make you suffer goals and defeats no matter what.

Another personal experience is that as soon as the user making such claims had bothered to actually upload something (say, the save) in the past, this was sorted.

Dagenham_Dave · January 27, 2014

I just like to no how after several reloads I always lost by 2-0. This would make me believe that the match results are pre-determined before the day of the match.

:lol: :lol:

How on earth can the results be pre-determined before the day of the match when the game has absolutely NO idea what changes you are going to make in-game, who is going to be injured, what subs will be made (and when), etc etc?

Honestly, this place...

GabrieleGallagher · January 27, 2014

Ok, so 10 reloads never scored a goal, went on holiday for 1day and I won 3-0.

If you think it's fine then I'll go to bed happy.

Good night guys, see ya, I'm really tired today ahah

Lawlore · January 27, 2014

I'm not sure how this thread doesn't have a one word answer, apart from the fact that it wouldn't meet the minimum character limit.