The next 'I don't believe FM is not biased' thing

[Fluisterwoud]

Premier League, matchday 38, I'm leading the pack on goal difference, Tottenham is my rival, I'm Man City. It's just a single season to try some tactics, no big deal whatsoever if I don't win the League, but...: I can not win the last game, away at Cardiff, 19th and relegated.

And yes, I have tried everything. Going on holiday, changed tactics, you name it, I tried it. I even bought FMRTE to remove bans, injuries and improve morale! I have re-played (I know some won't agree with that) the game 23 times. I drew 7 and won 0. And I don't believe the non-bias thing any more. It's absolute madness that Man City cannot win at Cardiff.

I don't expect an explanation, I just needed to unwind...

[LFC Chupa Chups]

You don't mind if you win the league but yet you reload 23 times. That's some logic right there

[Jimbokav1971]

Premier League, matchday 38, I'm leading the pack on goal difference, Tottenham is my rival, I'm Man City. It's just a single season to try some tactics, no big deal whatsoever if I don't win the League, but...: I can not win the last game, away at Cardiff, 19th and relegated.

And yes, I have tried everything. Going on holiday, changed tactics, you name it, I tried it. I even bought FMRTE to remove bans, injuries and improve morale! I have re-played (I know some won't agree with that) the game 23 times. I drew 7 and won 0. And I don't believe the non-bias thing any more. It's absolute madness that Man City cannot win at Cardiff.

I don't expect an explanation, I just needed to unwind...

You know what you should do....

Upload the save so everyone can have a go and then whoever manages to do it 1st time tells us all about it.

[Fluisterwoud]

You don't mind if you win the league but yet you reload 23 times. That's some logic right there

I lost the 5-0, the first time I played. Thought it was a bit extreme, played again, lost 3-0, and 4-1 and 4-2. I have won the League every single time due to the +10 difference between me and Spurs. It's just the annoying idea that it probably impossible to win certain games.

[LFC Chupa Chups]

I lost the 5-0, the first time I played. Thought it was a bit extreme, played again, lost 3-0, and 4-1 and 4-2. I have won the League every single time due to the +10 difference between me and Spurs. It's just the annoying idea that it probably impossible to win certain games.

I assume Cardiff has nothing to lose whereas you do. Pressure could well be a reason

[sporadicsmiles]

The build up to these games are really important. Anything that puts a load of pressure on your team needs to be handled well otherwise you can end up with some really nervous edgy performances (as happens in real life). The problem with reloading is that if there has already been a load of pressure put on your team (by things you or other managers have said in to the media), then this is always going to have a negative effect on the performance. I have had games such as this many times. You win some, you lose some. Typically if I score first I win, if I concede first I lose.

[HUNT3R]

It's just the annoying idea that it probably impossible to win certain games.

Well, you're struggling to win the game, but that doesn't mean it's impossible or that there's some bias that is preventing you from winning. Upload the save. People will start winning in no time.

[OxfordUnitedFC]

Do you reload games you win to check they weren't fixed in your favour?

[Jimbokav1971]

So even if you lose and Spurs win, then you still win the league?

And Cardiff are probably desperate for points to avoid relegation?

[Lawlore]

You know what you should do....

Upload the save so everyone can have a go and then whoever manages to do it 1st time tells us all about it.

This. Any accusations of the game being fixed/biased/whatever are very easy to test.

[PratoJoe]

So even if you lose and Spurs win, then you still win the league?

And Cardiff are probably desperate for points to avoid relegation?

This can be a reason for losing a game, or many games.

ALL the games? No.

If the motivation would be so important in football, now i'll be at least a 2nd Division Player.

[Jimbokav1971]

This can be a reason for losing a game, or many games.

ALL the games? No.

If the motivation would be so important in football, now i'll be at least a 2nd Division Player.

Im sure it's not the only reason.

Have absolutely no idea without seeing it.

Just offering a suggestion that the OP seemed to have overlooked.

[Clifton14]

It is your tactics!

[Unknown Hacker]

This can be a reason for losing a game, or many games.

ALL the games? No.

If the motivation would be so important in football, now i'll be at least a 2nd Division Player.

When you reload, especially if you saved immediately before the match, you have locked in the settings for most of the game's variables. Thus, when you continually replay and lose you aren't really losing many completely different games, but just minor variations on a similar framework.

And @Original Post: I would gladly have a go with your save if you would allow me to. I like challenges.

[Jimbokav1971]

When you reload, especially if you saved immediately before the match, you have locked in the settings for most of the game's variables. Thus, when you continually replay and lose you aren't really losing many completely different games, but just minor variations on a similar framework.

And @Original Post: I would gladly have a go with your save if you would allow me to. I like challenges.

Exactly.

Just off the top of my head....

You have done the pre-game press.

You have missed the opportunity to play the player against the U19's in the week preceeding.

You can't rest/train anymore.

All that's left is team-talks, (team and individual) and the match itself.

The way it works now is about more than just match day.

Having said that, I bet there are people queuing up to have a go at this game. I would actually pay a couple of quid to give it a go.

#LetsHaveAWhipRound

[Mr Blobby]

Upload please. Please. please.

[RTHerringbone]

Yeah, I'd have a look at this. Sounds like yet another overly attacking tactic getting done on the counter. Again.

[Celts1888]

Easy!!! Easy!!! Easy

[Loki679]

When you reload, especially if you saved immediately before the match, you have locked in the settings for most of the game's variables. Thus, when you continually replay and lose you aren't really losing many completely different games, but just minor variations on a similar framework.

And @Original Post: I would gladly have a go with your save if you would allow me to. I like challenges.

So if you reloaded and didnt change anything you should get the same result (result, not score) over and over, right?

[Lawlore]

So if you reloaded and didnt change anything you should get the same result (result, not score) over and over, right?

No, not at all. Although those variables are locked in, the calculations that still happen in-match, and which are also affected by in-match decisions (such as tactical changes, subs and other in-match occurrences), affect the final outcome and result.

For an extreme example- if a team went into a game as underdogs, with terrible morale, fitness and bad team talks locked up to it, all of that would suddenly matter a lot less if the opposing team's GK got himself sent off in the 3rd minute, and there was no sub keeper on the bench. The whole complexion of the game- and the decisions the managers made- would change, as could the result.

The circumstances leading up to the match create a general likelihood of win/draw/loss. But the decisions and occurrences in match will affect that result directly, due to the way the game calculates and recalculates the matches on the fly.

[soldierblue123]

It's football. Smaller clubs with nothing to lose do beat bigger and better clubs. So your result is not unusual.

[Bluebird123]

Premier League, matchday 38, I'm leading the pack on goal difference, Tottenham is my rival, I'm Man City. It's just a single season to try some tactics, no big deal whatsoever if I don't win the League, but...: I can not win the last game, away at Cardiff, 19th and relegated.

And yes, I have tried everything. Going on holiday, changed tactics, you name it, I tried it. I even bought FMRTE to remove bans, injuries and improve morale! I have re-played (I know some won't agree with that) the game 23 times. I drew 7 and won 0. And I don't believe the non-bias thing any more. It's absolute madness that Man City cannot win at Cardiff.

I don't expect an explanation, I just needed to unwind...

Because it has never happened in real life no?

As pointed out your team may not cope with the pressure of having to win the league on the last game, reloading right before you play Cardiff with all the pressure heaped on you will stay in effect regardless of how many times you reload.

It is funny how the people who call FM "scripted" "biased" when they lose a certain match never seem to upload their save because I am sure someone will win that game debunking their theory. No point of these threads unless you upload your save so someone can try it.

[tieio]

It's all good Fluisterwoud, just breath. You are not alone in how you feel, many others have been there too. Everything will be okay!

[Loki679]

It's not scripted but in 23 attempts Man City would beat Cardiff at least once. For me it indicates that some factors are probably weighted too heavily in the final result. By that /i mean that IRL the owners could announce before the game that the whole squad would be having mandatory sex changes at the end of the season and they'd still win at least one out of 23.

[walker_ctid]

Exactly.

Just off the top of my head....

You have done the pre-game press.

You have missed the opportunity to play the player against the U19's in the week preceeding.

You can't rest/train anymore.

All that's left is team-talks, (team and individual) and the match itself.

The way it works now is about more than just match day.

Having said that, I bet there are people queuing up to have a go at this game. I would actually pay a couple of quid to give it a go.

#LetsHaveAWhipRound

I would love to give this game a go, be interesting to see who can win and post a screenshot on here first!!

[Jimmious7]

A good question to start with is:

Did you try an extremely different approach in any of these 23 times you replayed this match?

For example instead of Control that you normally use(just random example) , go with a Counterattacking deep lying tactic? Standing off and waiting for them to come to you?

Don't let your feeling of superiority "blind" you, it happens way too often in FM and a lot of people are complaining because of this imo. They feel they should be winning because they have better players (in their opinion) and when they don't...they get frustrated. Happens to me also, quite often. And you keep going all-out attacking even if the results aren't coming, just because you "know" you're better.

Not trying to pretend I know everything, but I do believe that mentality plays a big factor in FM because people create their own "stories" in their minds and if the game doesn't "follow" them, they get annoyed. It's logical, normal human behavior

[Matshit]

You haven’t played 23 matches against Cardiff. You have played the same match against Cardiff 23 times.

To compare. If you throw a dice 1000 times, you expect the distribution to be pretty even, with 1/6 for every throw.

If you could rewind time, and go back to moment you release the dice, most of the variables have already been set in stone.

The longer you go back in time, the more can you change the present day by doing things differently.

[Dagenham_Dave]

You haven’t played 23 matches against Cardiff. You have played the same match against Cardiff 23 times.

To compare. If you throw a dice 1000 times, you expect the distribution to be pretty even, with 1/6 for every throw.

If you could rewind time, and go back to moment you release the dice, most of the variables have already been set in stone.

The longer you go back in time, the more can you change the present day by doing things differently.

Finally, somebody who gets it.

[Loki679]

You haven’t played 23 matches against Cardiff. You have played the same match against Cardiff 23 times.

To compare. If you throw a dice 1000 times, you expect the distribution to be pretty even, with 1/6 for every throw.

If you could rewind time, and go back to moment you release the dice, most of the variables have already been set in stone.

The longer you go back in time, the more can you change the present day by doing things differently.

What are the main variables that would affect a game of football? IMO the most important variables would be team selection and tactical approach, neither of which is set in stone in this case.

Not to mention the thousands of different things which can and will occur in the match itself which would affect the outcome.

Your analogy is more like playing a game up until there is 1 second left and replaying that last second over and over again and expecting a different result.

[forameuss]

You haven’t played 23 matches against Cardiff. You have played the same match against Cardiff 23 times.

To compare. If you throw a dice 1000 times, you expect the distribution to be pretty even, with 1/6 for every throw.

If you could rewind time, and go back to moment you release the dice, most of the variables have already been set in stone.

The longer you go back in time, the more can you change the present day by doing things differently.

But seriously you're absolutely right. If you're a reloader, you'd be better going back to, say, 2 to 3 days before the game and going from there. There's just not enough you can change from right before the game, unless you've made an epic tactical mistake.

[Cougar2010]

It's not scripted but in 23 attempts Man City would beat Cardiff at least once. For me it indicates that some factors are probably weighted too heavily in the final result. By that /i mean that IRL the owners could announce before the game that the whole squad would be having mandatory sex changes at the end of the season and they'd still win at least one out of 23.

If the OP has poor tactics and makes poor choices during all of those 23 attempts how is that any indication that some factors are weighted too heavily.

As has already been pointed out at the time the OP has saved several variables have already been locked in such as: Post match team talk from the last match, press conference, opposing manager comments, anything else that affected the players between matches & finally you have the limitations of the tactics that the OP has chosen to train.

[Loki679]

If the OP has poor tactics and makes poor choices during all of those 23 attempts how is that any indication that some factors are weighted too heavily.

As has already been pointed out at the time the OP has saved several variables have already been locked in such as: Post match team talk from the last match, press conference, opposing manager comments, anything else that affected the players between matches & finally you have the limitations of the tactics that the OP has chosen to train.

The OP states he has tried various tactics, going on holiday and removing negative influences with FMRTE. If the post match team talk, press conference and opposing manager comments can influence the outcome of a game such that a top team who currently sit top of the league are unable to beat a small club who have already been relegated and sit 19th in the table in 23 attempts then I would suggest they are weighted too heavily.

[Kenco]

It's funny how often these threads get started but the complainant never uploads the save because they know they will be proved wrong.

[Kenco]

What are the main variables that would affect a game of football? IMO the most important variables would be team selection and tactical approach, neither of which is set in stone in this case.

But the opposition's selection and tactics are set in stone and it's probably just a case of the AI team setting up just right on this occasion.

People always say they've changed this and that but the thing they forget is that it takes two to tango.

[Matshit]

I often think people overvalues the importance of the “correct” tactics. Both in Football Manager and real life. There is tactics that work, and tactics that are just stupid. The difference between the “good” tactics are more like the difference between rock and scissor. One is great against paper, and the other will always lose to it. So if you have gone through the entire season choosing rock because everyone choses scissor, you have to expect to lose to the person choosing paper every time. Your only chance is to go from rock to scissors, but in football terms doing this at the last second is the recipe for disaster. Because doing the tactical changes could be turning your team from Wimbledon or Stoke to Barcelona. It will take time to gel, and your players are hopefully signed because of the football they play. So doing big tactical changes at the last second could only benefit the opponent, and the small changes might not be enough.

Every other parameter you could use to win this match (being in better physical shape, having higher morale, having the correct referee that let you play your style, having the support of your fans, players under pressure because of important match or relaxing to much because of an unimportant match) is already set in stone.

When you can’t win in a game there is something wrong with the game or the gamer. For a lot of people, there is only one option and nothing would convince them otherwise.

[Dagenham_Dave]

The OP states he has tried various tactics, going on holiday and removing negative influences with FMRTE. If the post match team talk, press conference and opposing manager comments can influence the outcome of a game such that a top team who currently sit top of the league are unable to beat a small club who have already been relegated and sit 19th in the table in 23 attempts then I would suggest they are weighted too heavily.

But all we have to back this up is the OP's testimony. Did he really do all these things? Until this save is uploaded and others try it themselves, nothing can be gained from his original post.

And you're also being swayed by this '23 attempts'. It's only really the one attempt, it's just being 'relived' so to speak. As there is (clearly) no real life comparison for this scenario, you can never say one way or another whether not being able to win the same game no matter how many times you reload is realistic or not. That's why doing it is fairly pointless.

That said, it would be interesting if it was uploaded. Who knows, there may well be a major flaw in the game and no-one will be able to win that match, no matter what they do. I honestly suspect that wouldn't be the case, however.

Actually, what the OP should do is go back to the save, and just before he plays it, adds himself in as the manager of Cardiff and plays it 'human vs human'. See what happens then.

[Loki679]

But all we have to back this up is the OP's testimony. Did he really do all these things? Until this save is uploaded and others try it themselves, nothing can be gained from his original post.

And you're also being swayed by this '23 attempts'. It's only really the one attempt, it's just being 'relived' so to speak. As there is (clearly) no real life comparison for this scenario, you can never say one way or another whether not being able to win the same game no matter how many times you reload is realistic or not. That's why doing it is fairly pointless.

That said, it would be interesting if it was uploaded. Who knows, there may well be a major flaw in the game and no-one will be able to win that match, no matter what they do. I honestly suspect that wouldn't be the case, however.

Actually, what the OP should do is go back to the save, and just before he plays it, adds himself in as the manager of Cardiff and plays it 'human vs human'. See what happens then.

Yes, I agree, the OP uploading the save and having loads of us try it would be ideal. Right now it's too small a sample size to draw any relevant conclusions but equally we don't have enough data or evidence to dismiss it.

I also very much doubt that nobody would be able to win it, somebody will, probably lots of people but the interesting point will be is it disproportionately difficult to win this game given the relative strengths and circumstances of the teams?

[Lawlore]

But seriously you're absolutely right. If you're a reloader, you'd be better going back to, say, 2 to 3 days before the game and going from there. There's just not enough you can change from right before the game, unless you've made an epic tactical mistake.

Let's not go to the other extreme here and suggest that tactics and in-game decisions mean nothing. If the difference in the two sides quality is big enough (and I'm not saying that's the case here, without seeing the save), I'd say even the worst buildup could be salvaged by a combination of luck and good response to the way the match is going. Including, of course, the HT team talk. This is the point- there are so many factors involved in getting to the final score that without seeing it first-hand, it's tough to offer informed feedback.

For all we know, the OP might be playing with David Silva in goal and Cardiff have just had Messi return from injury.

[martinji]

I am curious about something else as well. In the OP you state that going into the game you are leading the pack on goal difference, and then in a later post despite never winning the game v Cardiff you say that you always win the league anyway due to your +10 difference vs Tottenham. Does this mean that either a) Tottenham are always losing their last game as well, or b) You actually had a 3 point lead over Tottenham and a +10 GD vs them? If it's the latter then the pressure on your own team should be a lot less because they know all they need to do is avoid a 10 goal swing, but I'm unconvinced the game is sophisticated enough to recognise that.

[Lawlore]

I am curious about something else as well. In the OP you state that going into the game you are leading the pack on goal difference, and then in a later post despite never winning the game v Cardiff you say that you always win the league anyway due to your +10 difference vs Tottenham. Does this mean that either a) Tottenham are always losing their last game as well, or b) You actually had a 3 point lead over Tottenham and a +10 GD vs them? If it's the latter then the pressure on your own team should be a lot less because they know all they need to do is avoid a 10 goal swing, but I'm unconvinced the game is sophisticated enough to recognise that.

Good point. I'm not sure it is able to recognise a situation that complex either (especially given the uselessness of some of the PC questions), but if the Spurs result (ie a loss) is also being that consistent, it adds another interesting dimension to this.

[jack1888]

Upload please!!!!!!!!!

[Dagenham_Dave]

Never happening, is it?

[Svenc]

Never happening, is it?

Think about it, the premise of these threads is always that the OP has reloaded a match multiple times. Often it is claimed it was a couple dozen times, actually. Whilst the object of misery is always this one match, the chances that this was a first is slim. Not accusing the OP of anything, mind, but upon uploading the save there might be some things getting revealed the player in question doesn't want to reveal.

That's one reason why it rarely happens. But when it does, the save can occasionally tell more about the player in question than the game:

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/145496-30-time-reload-but-you-can-t-win?p=3823874&viewfull=1#post3823874

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/145496-30-time-reload-but-you-can-t-win?p=3814864&viewfull=1#post3814864

[Jimbokav1971]

Think about it, the premise of these threads is always that the OP has reloaded a match multiple times. Often it is claimed it was a couple dozen times, actually. Whilst the object of misery is always this one match, the chances that this was a first is slim. Not accusing the OP of anything, mind, but upon uploading the save there might be some things getting revealed the player in question doesn't want to reveal.

That's one reason why it rarely happens. But when it does, the save can occasionally tell more about the player in question than the game:

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/145496-30-time-reload-but-you-can-t-win?p=3823874&viewfull=1#post3823874

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/145496-30-time-reload-but-you-can-t-win?p=3814864&viewfull=1#post3814864

pmsl Svenc.

Where on Earth did you dig that out of?

[themadsheep2001]

pmsl Svenc.

Where on Earth did you dig that out of?

Sven is a ninja when it comes to finding old threads. I still don't know how he does it.

Kudos Svenc, that pretty much nails this topic, yet again.

[Jimbokav1971]

Sven. I have just gone back and read the whole thread.

"Man fought dinosours and won!"

They don't make em like that anymore. Brilliant thread. Truly brilliant.

[forameuss]

It's a shame that topics like that would never get off the ground nowadays. Everyone's just far too sensitive. Seriously, the first few posts in that topic would get it locked these days

EDIT: That is glorious reading... some personal highlights

Lads, you are really trying to hard. When the game cheats, I always cheat back. This is the most noble and fair thing a player can do.

I don't think civilisation was created by people sitting and watching the dinosaurs eating them just because they were big. No. They stood up and fought. And guess what. The dinosaurs are dead.

Yes. Man truly did kill all the donosaurs with a big club (called Diablo), and a cheating tactic where he backed them into a corner and then "challenged T-Rex".

(well done Jimbo...)

Look. Reloading a game is so soft, so small, so cuddly, that cannot even go near being called "cheating". Let us use some perspective here, lads. Reload a game? Please. I become the mighty force of destruction when I am cheating. I have reduced Rafa Benitez into the guy who owns the hot-dog canteen outside the stadium. Poor Olympique Lyonnais has gone from first league to some obscure local bingo championship.

Reloading the game. Jesus Christ! That is normal, day to day FM playing. Relax.

The fact that a reload has become the devil itself in the eyes of our religious zealot friends is indeed the single funniest thing in these forums

You really are a bit of a weirdo aren't you?

Can we start a petition to get tak back on these forums? #prayfortak #gettakback #takattak

[milnerpoint]

pmsl Svenc.

Where on Earth did you dig that out of?

I love your post in there that shoots it all down, absolutely brilliant!!

Im sure Svenc has these all bookmarked somewhere just for these moments. He cant be using the search feature on here, not unless he is the only person in the world that can make it work!!