What's the 'best' FM Match Engine?

[YKW]

Yes I think when it comes to "best" there are a number of ways to look at it. I'm not sure there can really be an objective view overall, unless you define it.

Most fun - this could be for any reason from it was really easy to it was really hard. Almost entirely personal preference here.

From a technical standpoint - Probably fair to say that FM14 is quite far ahead in this department.

Most realistic - not as subjective as most fun, but still pretty subjective. For example I feel FM12 offered more realism, if that's the right word, in the sense that I was able to choose things and then see them happen. That's my personal experience only though. With my experiences of 13 and 14 I felt much less in control of reaching my tactical dream. Of course 14 has some huge points for most realistic also, such the improved graphics, general improvements to code and collision detection etc.

Generally throughout my life I have enjoyed each version of FM at least as much as the previous one, so I think there is also an argument that to some people the most recent is always the best.

Looking at it the thread should really be called what is your favourite match engine?

[Äktsjon Männ]

Deciding which match engine is the best is much more subjective than people here want to paint it as. The only objective criteria is how balanced and realistic statistics it churns out over a period of time. There are some aspects where 13 and 14 are superior (total pass count for example), then there are those that were better represented in 12. FM12 was a very well balanced game unless it was fed some input by the user that exploited a specific weakness (the through ball + fast striker stuff). I never did and found 12 as much of a challenge on the whole as the last two. I have absolutely no problem stating that the 13 ME was worse than 12 and there is no objective measure by which someone can tell me that this opinion is wrong.

[Sir Alex]

Hey guys!IMO,fm 2012 is the most enjoyable game,but fm2013 has the best ME.I don t like Me in 2014,is like a S.F. movie.Fm 2014 is a great game,more detailed but the ME is not very good.For me 2013 is the winner

[crouchaldinho]

FM12 was a very well balanced game unless it was fed some input by the user that exploited a specific weakness (the through ball + fast striker stuff). I never did and found 12 as much of a challenge on the whole as the last two.

Exactly the same here. I also enjoyed the FM12 engine a great deal but I didn't really do any better (or worse) on that game than on FM13. I haven't really studied the match engine in FM14 as much to form an opinion as I've hardly played it.

I remember being quite happy with the balance of the FM12 engine. It didn't have anything to do with perceived difficulty or otherwise.

The game where I overachieved to ridiculous levels was FM10. I took St Albans City to the Premier League and made them champions of England and Europe multiple times. In truth, it was a bit easy, and I didn't meet much resistance on the way up! Still think that match engine was pretty poor when I look back at it, especially the poor wide play and fact that playing through the middle was overpowered (for the record, I pretty much always played with wide men and didn't use any exploits). So judging the ME in different versions is not all about difficulty (for me anyway).

[Äktsjon Männ]

The game where I overachieved to ridiculous levels was FM10. I took St Albans City to the Premier League and made them champions of England and Europe multiple times. In truth, it was a bit easy, and I didn't meet much resistance on the way up! Still think that match engine was pretty poor when I look back at it, especially the poor wide play and fact that playing through the middle was overpowered (for the record, I pretty much always played with wide men and didn't use any exploits). So judging the ME in different versions is not all about difficulty (for me anyway).

Yeah, absolutely agree. I remember back in the day when 10 was the the newest version everybody and their grandmother were telling me how it was ultimately better than 09. I found this baffling. Think it was the least balanced version of the ones I've ever played extensively, which is about 06 onwards. In addition to to the useless wide play (because virtually no one ever scored a header) the play through the middle was absurdly slick and fluid, all one touch. Through balls were hardly defended and players would also go on ridiculous dribbling runs. 09 on the other hand, which everybody seemed to hate from the moment it wasn't the most up to date, was a finely balanced ME.

[Luckz]

The question is how often?

The gifs above are from one user and only from the newest match engine. One of them shows one of the ten best goalkeepers on the planet in the worst imaginable blunder.

Your last example I'm not sure what you are trying to show but I suspect its just one of those where the 3d looks a little odd when it shows what the ME has calculated.

Ah yes, a striker choosing not to tap the ball into an empty goal and instead passing to another striker in a worse position is "something perfectly realistic the ME has calculated".

before I confirmed any of my judgements on this forum, I watched 20 random Ai v Ai games, so how can I be struggling with tactics in games I'm not involved with? Please tell me.

When they can't accuse you of being such a sore loser that you are merely upset because you don't effortlessly win, they instead try to insinuate that you just are not smart enough as a human being to comprehend the most realistic play you see.

I agree with you in that it generally improves the next year every time.

I'd need to go back and play it to confirm, but I'd actually claim that FM10 "looks more like football". Comparisons to earlier versions like 05/06/07 might be a little unfair as they're not 3D.

I do genuinely think most of us who were there for the old days with no graphics, seem to give the game a bit more leeway than newer users

I started playing with 03/04, I at some point went back and tried 01/02, I'd say I'm mostly slowly fed up with the lack of progress in all available football video games, or with some even getting substantially worse over the years.

=> I give every new title less and less leeway :3

especially the poor wide play and fact that playing through the middle was overpowered

But then, in any other ME, you have ridiculously overpowered wide play, or ridiculously overpowered fast strikers, or ...

09 on the other hand, which everybody seemed to hate from the moment it wasn't the most up to date, was a finely balanced ME.

Was it 09 or 10 that added those regular ridiculous solo runs where your flair striker with super low finishing dribbles past ten guys to slot it in all by himself?

That was so infuriating to one's intelligence as a player every time.

P.S.: I vaguely remember that in FM 10, my defenders actually tackled. My girlfriend's leftback put in crunching slide tackles every match -- was a joy to watch. With horror, I can recall later titles relegating defenders to merely shadowing attackers.

[Cougar2010]

The gifs above are from one user and only from the newest match engine. One of them shows one of the ten best goalkeepers on the planet in the worst imaginable blunder.

and?

Whats the problem with that?

I quick search on google can bring up any number of GK howlers by the best keepers on the planet as you put it.

[wwfan]

I happen to agree with him in principle that a major reason that FM12 is the most popular is because it was easier. But I think its rude to dismiss somebody's post with a one (two) word response saying that what they have said is an illogical statement when what they themselves said was also an illogical statement. Isn't that fair?

Along the same lines as your point, the post that wwfan responded to saying "non sequitur" can also be defended. He is right also, it is a game, and that is probably why people like one where they can win as opposed to why they can't.

I agree with both, but that doesn't make either logical to say. That is all I am saying. wwfan is holding somebody to a standard of logic which he isn't himself reaching. That is all.

The bottom lines written in quotation marks are not my opinion, and I wrote them because they are obviously wrong, which I think some people may have missed, if the mocking responses above are aimed at my post. It is equivalent logic to wwfans statement to say the things I wrote in quotations above, I do not believe them.

I could have perhaps written, "Based on my long experience of modding the forums, helping with ME and TC development, and the explicit and tactic knowledge that accompanies this, it is not surprising to me that the ME that people found the easiest is being posited as the best". Slightly more logical than "FM is a game. We only enjoy easy games. Therefore, FM12 is the most popular because it was the easiest game". The premise that "we only enjoy easy games" is flawed. I enjoy games that stretch me and quickly get bored with easy games. I play bridge over snap, tennis over paddle ball, and FM over FIFA Manager because they are more challenging games.

The massive weighting on FM12 is weird given that, to all extents and purposes, it's the same ME as FM11. Why is it then perceived as significantly better, especially when early on there was a serious problem with corners (almost certainly related to a data issue that knocked onto the ME in a manner that the previous data didn't), making it far too easy for the user manager to dominate. Partly, I would suggest, it is because there was no need to change tactics between FM11 and FM12 if you had already developed a tactic the AI couldn't cope with. In previous editions, the ME fixes between releases would always stop previously successful exploiting tactics from working. This didn't happen between FM11 and 12, meaning people could launch straight into new games without thinking very much. Success for most was immediate. That level of immediate ease of success is, for me, what is swaying the poll so much.

The collision detection in FM13 prevented any of these tactics from working, resulting in negative feedback. The removal of sliders in FM14 meant many FM13 tactics couldn't work, resulting in negative feedback. FM12 is almost unique in that this type of feedback never materialised.

FM11 and FM12 were very balanced MEs. If FM11 hadn't been balanced, it would never have been considered for the double release whilst the post FM12 ME was being developed. By balanced, I mean all tactical shapes and styles had an equally viable chance of succeeding (assuming they were logically constructed). FM13 and FM14 also have very balanced MEs. Technically, they are better MEs for many reasons, including the collision detection, player physics, general formation shape and a number of other things. They are also more challenging MEs, largely for the same reasons they are better technical MEs. They have flaws and bugs related to the technical improvements, which introduce new problems and errors that need to be fixed. Lack of dynamism in lateral movement, illogical last touches before shooting or crossing, and players losing track of the ball are three such examples. However, despite these bugs, the nuts and bolts of a more robust ME are firmly in place and you should expect future developments to produce an ME as polished as FM11/12. The question is whether, by then, enough of the user base will understand the tactical module well enough for transition between iterations to be smooth. Once they do, then most of the frustration will dissipate.

[Luckz]

I just saw .

Then I noticed that the Metacritic user score from 2010 to 2014 points downward sharply: 9.2, 8.4, 7.9, 6.7, 5.1.

FM11 and FM12 were very balanced MEs.

But weren't they known for being very biased in terms of wide play and optimal striker choices? Or do you find that to be an untrue assumption?

[wwfan]

But weren't they known for being very biased in terms of wide play and optimal striker choices? Or do you find that to be an untrue assumption?

I don't think they were biased in terms of wide play v narrow play. Users could easily overachieve with quick FCs though.

[crouchaldinho]

I just saw .

Then I noticed that the Metacritic user score from 2010 to 2014 points downward sharply: 9.2, 8.4, 7.9, 6.7, 5.1.

I believe that some of the fan base are alienated and disillusioned with the game. If you read the comments in the many negative reviews on Steam, you'll see that many of them say the same kind of thing.

The series just isn't progressing in any significant way, in my opinion, and I think many fans of the game are disappointed with the direction of the last two games.

In FM14, the 'new' tactics system feels unfinished and the game just seems as though it has nothing particularly new to offer the long-term FM player. All in my opinion, of course. I'm sure many disagree but I'm personally disappointed.

Obviously, FM is still hugely popular and always one of the most played games on Steam so many are definitely very happy. However, in my circle of FM playing friends, I know that there are quite a few who are fed up and some who don't even play the game any more. This is more about the game as a whole though rather than specifically any feelings about the match engine.

[forameuss]

I just saw .

Then I noticed that the Metacritic user score from 2010 to 2014 points downward sharply: 9.2, 8.4, 7.9, 6.7, 5.1.

How many people go and review a game when they're happy about it? How many more will go on metacritic and leave scathing reviews when they're unhappy? If they were well-written, subjective reviews that were negative, I'd pay more attention, but seriously, read some. The detail, maybe you could agree with, but to give a game a zero because you don't like something about it sort of reduces the validity of said review.

I'd say the critic review score gets it about spot on. I'd give it around 80 personally.

[crouchaldinho]

I'd say the critic review score gets it about spot on. I'd give it around 80 personally.

Some of the critic review scores are utterly terrible though! For example, the PC Gamer review didn't even review the full game. Even more or less said he didn't like it, in fact! It was solely his thoughts about FMC. I'd wager some of the critic reviews just copy and paste what they wrote last year as well. I do think some of them are lacking in terms of being reliable and useful indications of a game's quality.

I don't know about Metacritic, where your comment is possibly valid, but plenty of people give positive Steam reviews. It's very common for people to review a game that they have enjoyed positively on Steam. I think I've done about 5 or 6 reviews and only one was negative.

Regardless, whatever you think about the quality of user reviews, it doesn't change the fact that the scores people are giving the game have been falling quite significantly.

[milnerpoint]

Yeah but there is also a trend now a days with games, its either brilliant, or the worst thing to have ever been created and the makers should be shot. There seems to be little middle ground with the younger folk at the moment. Dont like one thing, give it a zero, win the league give it 100. I'm not saying all are like that obviously, but it does seem to be more common now a days.

[forameuss]

Some of the critic review scores are utterly terrible though! For example, the PC Gamer review didn't even review the full game. Even more or less said he didn't like it, in fact! It was solely his thoughts about FMC. I'd wager some of the critic reviews just copy and paste what they wrote last year as well. I do think some of them are lacking in terms of being reliable and useful indications of a game's quality.

I don't know about Metacritic, where your comment is possibly valid, but plenty of people give positive Steam reviews. It's very common for people to review a game that they have enjoyed positively on Steam. I think I've done about 5 or 6 reviews and only one was negative.

Regardless, whatever you think about the quality of user reviews, it doesn't change the fact that the scores people are giving the game have been falling quite significantly.

I was pretty much exclusively referring to metacritic, so take your point about Steam. It's a shame for the people on MC that actually do give objective reviews designed to help people. The "most helpful" review is just more of the tired "I can't be bothered actually putting any effort into learning" fare.

Regardless, whatever you think about the quality of user reviews, it doesn't change the fact that the scores people are giving the game have been falling quite significantly.

It seems they are, but aren't sales up on each version? SI are very open about the game around release. There is a fully featured demo offered, which is something they don't have to do. Plenty of developers don't offer a demo at all, so it's just a matter of paying your money and hoping it's good. With FM, you can play your six months, and make a decision based on that.

So why are the scores falling? Is it the complexity rising? Reviewers presumably aren't granted months to review the game, so they have to base it on maybe a few days play. I can see the outcome in those cases of someone not being too pleased with the game. It's a slow burner, and often the most enjoyment is had months into the game.

I don't think SI will be overly worried unless sales take a massive dip. As long as it remains profitable, and SI keep thinking they're making the game better year on year (which for me, they are, but I know it's subjective) then I don't think they'll mind what reviews say.

Yeah but there is also a trend now a days with games, its either brilliant, or the worst thing to have ever been created and the makers should be shot. There seems to be little middle ground with the younger folk at the moment. Dont like one thing, give it a zero, win the league give it 100. I'm not saying all are like that obviously, but it does seem to be more common now a days.

Isn't that the case with anything though? Go take a look at some youtube comments, or anything commented on widely on Facebook. People love nothing more than to complain, and are usually pretty hyperbolic in doing so.

National service, country's gone to the dogs, youth of today etc etc etc

[milnerpoint]

Aye thats what i mean, people in general seem to be almost bi-polar with how they view things, or at least how they put across how they view things. There is very little middle ground any more, its either the best in the world, or the worst thing in the world. I think reviews show that, and this forum is a prime example of it.

[Äktsjon Männ]

Was it 09 or 10 that added those regular ridiculous solo runs where your flair striker with super low finishing dribbles past ten guys to slot it in all by himself?

That was so infuriating to one's intelligence as a player every time.

P.S.: I vaguely remember that in FM 10, my defenders actually tackled. My girlfriend's leftback put in crunching slide tackles every match -- was a joy to watch. With horror, I can recall later titles relegating defenders to merely shadowing attackers.

It was 10. In 09 tackling was actually severely overpowered, but that allowed for good balance and more realistic flow in other areas. Meaning that a striker going on a ridiculous solo run would be a rare sight, which made it extra rewarding when it actually happened. None of the later titles have quite felt like this in my view. Even the new generation (13 onwards) versions with their collision avoidance, which is enough to deter off the ball runs but doesn't do that much in stopping excessive dribbling.

[Guest Giovi]

I have been playing FM ever since it was Championship Manager. FM 12 was the last good version of the game. FM 13 and FM 14 versions are the most poor in my opinion. Especially the match engine of the game became really poor. Full of bugs that a lot of time happened to change the course of the match. Two years in a row FM is disappointing. I hope they don't score a hat-trick next year with FM 15. What the game really needs to go forward and improved is simple. It needs competitions. The luck of competition does not help the game to improve. For example. FIFA and PES. Every year they get better and better because they compete each other. FM unfortunately does not have any competitor and its costing to the game. After playing FM 13 and FM 14 I realised how boring the game became. Its like a circle. Every year FM comes out with the same usual problems like bugs, updates all the time, problems with the steam e.t. At the end of the day I ask my self? Why should I buy FM 15? Is something going to change? The answer that comes straight on my head is unfortunately NO. I say to ma self that again next year we will be discussing the same problems that every year the game has. So I have decided that after so many years I will not buy FM 15 when is released. Through my experience all these years if I buy the game I will do it on May 2015. Why? Its pretty simple. The game is released every year on October, with the beta version two weeks before. I used to buy the beta version but its not going to happened next year. The game when is released on October is full of its usual problems that all the people are complaining about. Usually the last update of FM comes around May. That's when I will buy the game if I decide to do it.

[Carmi88]

every year fifa and PES get better? sure

[forameuss]

I have been playing FM ever since it was Championship Manager. FM 12 was the last good version of the game. FM 13 and FM 14 versions are the most poor in my opinion. Especially the match engine of the game became really poor. Full of bugs that a lot of time happened to change the course of the match. Two years in a row FM is disappointing. I hope they don't score a hat-trick next year with FM 15. What the game really needs to go forward and improved is simple. It needs competitions. The luck of competition does not help the game to improve. For example. FIFA and PES. Every year they get better and better because they compete each other. FM unfortunately does not have any competitor and its costing to the game. After playing FM 13 and FM 14 I realised how boring the game became. Its like a circle. Every year FM comes out with the same usual problems like bugs, updates all the time, problems with the steam e.t. At the end of the day I ask my self? Why should I buy FM 15? Is something going to change? The answer that comes straight on my head is unfortunately NO. I say to ma self that again next year we will be discussing the same problems that every year the game has. So I have decided that after so many years I will not buy FM 15 when is released. Through my experience all these years if I buy the game I will do it on May 2015. Why? Its pretty simple. The game is released every year on October, with the beta version two weeks before. I used to buy the beta version but its not going to happened next year. The game when is released on October is full of its usual problems that all the people are complaining about. Usually the last update of FM comes around May. That's when I will buy the game if I decide to do it.

Having competition isn't going to stop a game having bugs. Lower your expectations - software has bugs. Every. Single. One.

[RTHerringbone]

every year fifa and PES get better? sure

My thoughts exactly!

I saw a clip of the latest FIFA on YouTube earlier this week, and whilst it looks impressive graphically, the players still move like freaks and the flow of the matches is just wrong on every level. No thanks.

[forameuss]

My thoughts exactly!

I saw a clip of the latest FIFA on YouTube earlier this week, and whilst it looks impressive graphically, the players still move like freaks and the flow of the matches is just wrong on every level. No thanks.

To be fair (OFF TOPIC ALAAAARM), FIFA has made massive strides, and for an arcade football game, it's getting pretty good. The next-gen versions are streets ahead of current-gen in terms of how they play, and I haven't enjoyed a football game that much in a while. PES is a travesty these days. Much changed from the days of four people around a TV playing Pro Evo while FIFA was nothing more than a show-pony.

But comparing them to FM is pointless, and the number of bugs in FIFA is always going to be around the same level as the number of bugs in FM. Or any other piece of software. Difference is, SI are very receptive to things that are wrong, whereas EA...aren't.

[YKW]

.....

Really great and insightful post, thanks for the effort. You have really elaborated on the "easiest game is favourite" cliche in a way that I personally don't think I have read on here. Your expertise and experience is really valuable (obviously in the tactical forums) but imo even more so in threads like this one. I especially liked your interpretation of why FM12 didn't have a certain type of negative feedback, as users could have continuity from FM11.

My experience of FM12, which I think I may have posted earlier in this thread, was that at first I lost all the time. I made a point of not modifying the sliders so as to embrace the new system. After about 3 sackings and not many more wins I was able to piece together some better strategies, and then with the benefit of a team not devastated by low morale (it's significance was 12's biggest flaw imo) I was finally able to have things click into place. After a little more time I felt confident in building different strategies and being successful. The major exception to this was trying to play 3 at the back, which although I could win, looked horrible and despite hours and hours I decided that the lack of lateral awareness (which you mention) pretty much made it impossible. But overall I went from totally clueless to having confidence in making tactics and then some time after that having confidence in when to use each shout.

I can tell you specifically what helped me.

I would bring up the tactic screen and then apply the view which shows, instead of morale, form and condition, the slider showing players forward runs. Then I would tinker with my roles and duties and see what effect it had. Ditto for the other sliders such as mentality, closing down, through balls etc, as well as noting the wide play options, tight or loose marking etc. At one point I was taking screenshots during matches after I applied a shout to see what it did.

This exposed to me to my own ignorance.

For example, I thought that retain possession (and get ball forward) mainly affected passing risk, not length. My reasoning was that retaining the ball was possession over attacking, and that getting the ball forward was attacking rather than possession. However these shouts mainly affect passing length and tempo, and have nothing inherently to do with risk. For some reason (probably because I had already wrongly assumed what retain possession did) I thought pass to feet meant pass it short. I don't know why I didn't make a connection with its opposite being pass into space, which I knew increased through balls. At every turn I was shocked (and often felt stupid for not realising the obvious.) Pump ball into box decreases width and makes wingers hold the ball up?! I was using it in conjunction with exploit the flanks to make my wingers cross it in. Doing so, I noticed, meant that most of my midfield 4 were now holding up the ball. Not what I had imagined. Another example would be telling my boys to stay on feet to be cautious of getting a red, before realising that my BWM was unaffected by the shout. It makes sense, but I was playing as though that wasn't the case. Other subtle differences would be the marking settings for strikers, again which make sense, but I wasn't playing according to those rules. But I was able to simply analyse and learn.

That meant 3 things.

1. I knew what I wanted to do

2. I knew what that meant in the game's terms

3. I knew which of the tools in the game to use to achieve what I wanted.

And I could reach this point using NOTHING external to the game. I don't think this has been true since 13 came out, which I suppose is my point.

Which brings me onto my second point which is that I think when talking about which is the best match engine an underestimated factor is how the user interacts with the match engine, rather than just how the match engine plays out, for instance in an AI v AI game. In this way I think FM12 is leaps and bounds ahead of 14 simply due to the clarity over the controls, and the ability of the user to rationalise them WITHOUT using tools external to the game.

And this is where it ties in with "easiness," and why your clarification of your belief was refreshing. You make some near conclusive points which, although they don't apply to me directly, are very clear and spoken from a position of great knowledge. I also agree that the easiness is a major factor towards people's preference for FM12. You give one explanation of the easiness, and what I would add to that is that along with the continuity from FM11, FM12 had a system that was possible to understand using objective terms, and crucially, was possible understand without external guidance. In that sense I think it is too easy to dismiss people's satisfaction as being based in the difficulty of the game and then leave it at that. The reasons for the easiness should be explored in more depth as we are doing.

Personally I think the root of the difficulty doesn't lie in the challenge of the game, but lies in the complexity and (imo) awkwardness of the controls.

I play bridge over snap, tennis over paddle ball, and FM over FIFA Manager because they are more challenging games.

I'm definitely like you in this way. Do you also only go for lesbians? If not, don't bother because the match engine sucks.

[Cougar2010]

The gifs above are from one user and only from the newest match engine. One of them shows one of the ten best goalkeepers on the planet in the worst imaginable blunder.

I hope you are watching the World Cup Luckz and taking note of the GK errors and missed chances.

[Dedinho]

I hope you are watching the World Cup Luckz and taking note of the GK errors and missed chances.

I so knew one of these comments would appear.

The sad fact is, that those from Casillas weren't as bad as the ones in FM14, and most certainly do not as often as they are in the computer game...

[Cougar2010]

I so knew one of these comments would appear.

The sad fact is, that those from Casillas weren't as bad as the ones in FM14, and most certainly do not as often as they are in the computer game...

Really?

How often do mistakes happen IRL? You really need to take the blinkers off and watch real football matches.

Its not just Casillas, what about the Marcelo og last night? van Persie could have had a very similar one tonight when Ramos completely missed a square ball from Robben and I could list several other examples from the first three matches of the World Cup.

EDIT

and its not just errors, its strikers as well. Hernandez missed from the edge of the six yard box, Schneider missed two one on one chances, Torres fluffed it etc

[crouchaldinho]

Vvicente del Bosque clearly gave the wrong team talk.

All of the players reacted with 'seemed demotivated, looked delighted'!

[Dedinho]

Really?

How often do mistakes happen IRL? You really need to take the blinkers off and watch real football matches.

Its not just Casillas, what about the Marcelo og last night? van Persie could have had a very similar one tonight when Ramos completely missed a square ball from Robben and I could list several other examples from the first three matches of the World Cup.

EDIT

and its not just errors, its strikers as well. Hernandez missed from the edge of the six yard box, Schneider missed two one on one chances, Torres fluffed it etc

1. If my memory serves me well, I only saw Casillas having one game that was as bad as this one before in his career. In his career. Not a season. Career. I might be wrong of course, I haven't watched all of his games, and of course I don't remember all of those that I did, but I have yet to see him carry the ball into the corner, or kicking the ball straight into his defender under no pressure, causing the ball to bounce into the goal.

2. It's funny you mention the Hernandez case. How many times did you see Chicharito butcher a chance like the one he had today? He's a world class finisher, and the chance he missed today was a shocker considering his ability. I was shocked he missed that one, in FM14 I wouldn't be...

[Dagenham_Dave]

2. It's funny you mention the Hernandez case. How many times did you see Chicharito butcher a chance like the one he had today? He's a world class finisher, and the chance he missed today was a shocker considering his ability. I was shocked he missed that one, in FM14 I wouldn't be...

Is this the same 'Chicarito' who now hasn't scored for Mexico in around 10 games now?

[Dedinho]

Is this the same 'Chicarito' who now hasn't scored for Mexico in around 10 games now?

Was that due to him missing chances like the one he had today, or due to the lack of him having many chances at all?

[Cougar2010]

1. If my memory serves me well, I only saw Casillas having one game that was as bad as this one before in his career. In his career. Not a season. Career. I might be wrong of course, I haven't watched all of his games, and of course I don't remember all of those that I did, but I have yet to see him carry the ball into the corner, or kicking the ball straight into his defender under no pressure, causing the ball to bounce into the goal.

2. It's funny you mention the Hernandez case. How many times did you see Chicharito butcher a chance like the one he had today? He's a world class finisher, and the chance he missed today was a shocker considering his ability. I was shocked he missed that one, in FM14 I wouldn't be...

TBH Dedinho its pointless having a discussion with people like you.

You have a blinkered view about what happens in RL football and only see what you want to see when it suits your argument completely ignoring everything else.

Until you start watching games without that bias and with an open mind you'll never be happy with what you see in FM. The internet is full of videos showing mistakes, missed goals, howlers etc with more added every week. Not a week goes by on shows like MOTD where there isn't several examples in a game week, how often do these have to be shown & pointed out before you realise?

As for your points:

1) I haven't seen a keeper kick the ball into a defender once on FM14 and thats watching over 700 matches on comprehensive highlights, not for me and not against me.

[markantony]

1. If my memory serves me well, I only saw Casillas having one game that was as bad as this one before in his career. In his career. Not a season. Career. I might be wrong of course, I haven't watched all of his games, and of course I don't remember all of those that I did, but I have yet to see him carry the ball into the corner, or kicking the ball straight into his defender under no pressure, causing the ball to bounce into the goal.

2. It's funny you mention the Hernandez case. How many times did you see Chicharito butcher a chance like the one he had today? He's a world class finisher, and the chance he missed today was a shocker considering his ability. I was shocked he missed that one, in FM14 I wouldn't be...

There is no point mate. I have seen that error several times in my game. Even more common is the keeper clearing the ball straight to a striker who hits it into the empty net. These flaws will not be accepted ever and will be excused on the basis that in the Tonga under 15s reserve league it happened once in 1974.

[themadsheep2001]

There is no point mate. I have seen that error several times in my game. Even more common is the keeper clearing the ball straight to a striker who hits it into the empty net. These flaws will not be accepted ever and will be excused on the basis that in the Tonga under 15s reserve league it happened once in 1974.

Well, thats not really true is it? If it was, the bugs forum wouldnt assist. I assume you created a bug thread for it and uploaded a PKM for someone at SI to have a look at?

[markantony]

Well, thats not really true is it? If it was, the bugs forum wouldnt assist. I assume you created a bug thread for it and uploaded a PKM for someone at SI to have a look at?

No, I didn't. I did raise the issue of the keeper clearing to the striker. That really isn't the point though, is it?

[Cougar2010]

No, I didn't. I did raise the issue of the keeper clearing to the striker. That really isn't the point though, is it?

No the point is that it doesn't happen anywhere near the amount that you claim or imply.

If it does prove it, upload your save for us all to see as the rest of us can only go off what we see in our saves.

As for your striker comment I've seen that twice in the 700 odd games I've watched, once we conceded and once the opposition striker missed. Both of those were on a previous patch and I believe SI tweaked the cause in one of the updates.

[themadsheep2001]

No the point is that it doesn't happen anywhere near the amount that you claim or imply.

If it does prove it, upload your save for us all to see as the rest of us can only go off what we see in our saves.

As for your striker comment I've seen that twice in the 700 odd games I've watched, once we conceded and once the opposition striker missed. Both of those were on a previous patch and I believe SI tweaked the cause in one of the updates.

I wouldnt say its necessarily a case of proving it to anyone, but if it's really happening that often he should definitely back it with bug reports, because people can only really go with what they see on their saves.

[markantony]

No the point is that it doesn't happen anywhere near the amount that you claim or imply.

If it does prove it, upload your save for us all to see as the rest of us can only go off what we see in our saves.

As for your striker comment I've seen that twice in the 700 odd games I've watched, once we conceded and once the opposition striker missed. Both of those were on a previous patch and I believe SI tweaked the cause in one of the updates.

I made no claim, I simply backed up the other guy, because I have seen what he complained about at least four times in my save, but all he was getting was "no it doesn't happen"

[Cougar2010]

I made no claim, I simply backed up the other guy, because I have seen what he complained about at least four times in my save, but all he was getting was "no it doesn't happen"

He wasn't getting "It doesn't happen" at all, he was getting "It happens from time to time IRL as well"

and yes you did make a claim:

There is no point mate. I have seen that error several times in my game. Even more common is the keeper clearing the ball straight to a striker who hits it into the empty net. These flaws will not be accepted ever and will be excused on the basis that in the Tonga under 15s reserve league it happened once in 1974.

[markantony]

He wasn't getting "It doesn't happen" at all, he was getting "It happens from time to time IRL as well"

and yes you did make a claim:

That isn't my claim dude, the claim was already made. I supported it.

[Dedinho]

TBH Dedinho its pointless having a discussion with people like you.

You have a blinkered view about what happens in RL football and only see what you want to see when it suits your argument completely ignoring everything else.

Until you start watching games without that bias and with an open mind you'll never be happy with what you see in FM. The internet is full of videos showing mistakes, missed goals, howlers etc with more added every week. Not a week goes by on shows like MOTD where there isn't several examples in a game week, how often do these have to be shown & pointed out before you realise?

As for your points:

1) I haven't seen a keeper kick the ball into a defender once on FM14 and thats watching over 700 matches on comprehensive highlights, not for me and not against me.

I decided to take a look in the ME bugs forum, aaaaaaaaand...

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/392374-Reviewed-Extremely-unrealistic-own-goal

[YKW]

To be fair markantony, the bolded bit after "Even more common" looks like an original claim to me.

EDIT: Dedinho, good work.

[Cougar2010]

I decided to take a look in the ME bugs forum, aaaaaaaaand...

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/392374-Reviewed-Extremely-unrealistic-own-goal

So Sikker has done the correct thing and uploaded a pkm to the bugs forum for SI to review.

It seems SI are aware of a bug in this area but its not one I've personally come across in my saves.

[markantony]

To be fair markantony, the bolded bit after "Even more common" looks like an original claim to me.

EDIT: Dedinho, good work.

That wasn't the claim he was talking about. He initially claimed that I imply or claim it happens all the time. I did no such thing. He has found a different thing he can call a "claim" because he was wrong. *shrugs* doesn't matter, what we are discussing is a known bug.

[Dedinho]

So Sikker has done the correct thing and uploaded a pkm to the bugs forum for SI to review.

It seems SI are aware of a bug in this area but its not one I've personally come across in my saves.

But yet, this was not the point of this debate.

I stated a couple of days earlier in this same thread, that I personally believe that FM14 is not "the worst match engine in the history of everything", and I was honest about it. I did also say, and I do believe, that it has some annoying bugs/glitches, that I personally haven't experienced in any of the FM versions before. Now despite the fact that I believe that FM14 ME has great potential, it is the first version of Football Manager ever in which I rage quitted on the game multiple times already, and didn't play it for another month after that, because I've seen some situations I have yet to see IRL (maybe the bugs that occured in my games weren't all as bad, but the frequency of them led me to the same rage quitting), and it is embarrassing comparing to the SI standards, comparing to the games they've released in the past. That was my point.

[Neil Dejyothin]

Firstly I’d like to thank everybody who has posted their feedback here. It’s certainly been interesting to read your experiences and views with the overall match experience.

It’s up to us to continue improving that experience and doing what we can to try and make each release better than the previous one. That's always the goal, however there are times when we change some fundamental underlying elements as part of a long term vision on how we want to shape the match experience. Some of those changes will always bring new challenges and alter what the experience is, but it is something we try to take great care with from each and every release.

There will always be a high amount of subjectivity with discussions like this, but rest assured, we’re always listening and taking feedback on board, and there’s a tremendous desire within the team to keep improving the match experience.

Threads like these are helpful and useful to us, so let's hope we can improve the experience for the majority of you with the next release. We know there are plenty of areas we can do better with, and plenty of areas we can still improve. And we intend to.

[dsouthy]

Never got in 10, 11, 10 was far too easy.

FM 12 I spent a lot of time on and still run a save now but after 8-9 seasons I got bored.

FM13 & FM14 I currently run both side by side. I have pros and cons for both but these games are what you make of them. I have a great save running on 13 and im starting by 2nd games on 14. 14 is harder than 13 making your really think what is going on. Out of a simulation that is what I want. A average joe blogs cannot take over Liverpool, Man City etc... and win everything. Its true, it is down to your tactics, even the best real work class managers have ups and downs and get there tactics wrong, look at spain in the WC. Or is that a bug!?

Football is full of up and downs, stupid mistakes, surprise results out of the blue - ride the waves and eventually you'll get there.

Great work SI!

[Santa Claus]

I developed a theory where, for the average FM player, SI (intentionally or not) changed the "role" of the match day in the overall game world. Back when it was easier to win (FM12 and pre) match day was just something that propels the save and game world forward, something that doesn't have direct effect on your title chances. It was more important to build a balanced team with players that fit roles in your tactics, to praise your players occasionally, and to make a simple balanced tactics without much overthinking. That way, average player who doesn't invest majority of his time in thinking about and tinkering with tactics, watching full match highlights etc... still had the idea how he wants his team to play and managed to get it out of the team, by building half decent tactic and bringing in players who, when looking their attributes and ppms, fits the roles in his tactic. That way, when match day comes, it used to be mainly relaxing experience where you knew how your team would play and they never disappointed in that sense. Sometimes you lose, sometimes you win, but even if you lose, you are not angry and don't have the urge to rage quit because you knew your players did what you asked them to and you knew they gave their best.

To simplify it, FM for me is and has always been about team building, buying the right players for your average tactic, and buying young players to tutor them and watch them develop. Match day was just something to "break" the game (in interesting and relaxing way) and propel it forward. Nowadays, match day is the most important aspect of your game week, something that takes away the most of your time, and tactic became something you think about day and night when you are not playing the game, whereas before one in his non-playing time used to think whether he should buy this or that player or should he send his promising youngster on loan to Yeovil or Crewe.

Tactic became the most important aspect of the game. And that is what, for me, took the fun out of the game.

[forameuss]

I developed a theory where, for the average FM player, SI (intentionally or not) changed the "role" of the match day in the overall game world. Back when it was easier to win (FM12 and pre) match day was just something that propels the save and game world forward, something that doesn't have direct effect on your title chances. It was more important to build a balanced team with players that fit roles in your tactics, to praise your players occasionally, and to make a simple balanced tactics without much overthinking. That way, average player who doesn't invest majority of his time in thinking about and tinkering with tactics, watching full match highlights etc... still had the idea how he wants his team to play and managed to get it out of the team, by building half decent tactic and bringing in players who, when looking their attributes and ppms, fits the roles in his tactic. That way, when match day comes, it used to be mainly relaxing experience where you knew how your team would play and they never disappointed in that sense. Sometimes you lose, sometimes you win, but even if you lose, you are not angry and don't have the urge to rage quit because you knew your players did what you asked them to and you knew they gave their best.

To simplify it, FM for me is and has always been about team building, buying the right players for your average tactic, and buying young players to tutor them and watch them develop. Match day was just something to "break" the game (in interesting and relaxing way) and propel it forward. Nowadays, match day is the most important aspect of your game week, something that takes away the most of your time, and tactic became something you think about day and night when you are not playing the game, whereas before one in his non-playing time used to think whether he should buy this or that player or should he send his promising youngster on loan to Yeovil or Crewe.

Tactic became the most important aspect of the game. And that is what, for me, took the fun out of the game.

I think you may have a point there, but I do start to disagree with you further on. I'd say the point of changing the match day is spot on though - I was a player who could always just throw together some players, click continue, and I'd be fairly confident of knowing how things would go. That just isn't possible anymore, and you have to be much more savvy about things, and know your squad (and the strengths and weaknesses) inside out. For those that always played this way, it's no problem, but it's a big curve to get over for people like me.

I would disagree that the fun's gone though, it's just been moved. I know that's massively subjective though, so completely understand if some people don't find it fun anymore.

[Luckz]

Tactic became the most important aspect of the game. And that is what, for me, took the fun out of the game.

Eh, recent titles have not been labelled "Motivation Manager" without reason. Making your eleven little piglets (plus subs) want to perform is the focal point of it, with tactics occasionally degenerating to irrelevance.

FM08 was the tactics game, where you'd constantly need to tweak and fiddle with your tactics and lineup mid-match to secure victory. That title also drove a lot of players away at the time, but at least it was due to football tactics and not some morale minigame... plus they all returned for FM 09/11/..

[HUNT3R]

Actually, it has been called Morale Manager and the people who call it that are completely wrong. Take a look at their tactics and you'll see why.