Real Time Help? How not to Design, Create and Maintain Part 3

[AngryDad]

In case you have inadvertently stumbled onto this thread without seeing parts 1 and 2 they can be found here:

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/387220-Creating-a-Tactic-How-Not-to-Design-Create-and-Maintain-Part-2?

The shortened version is I'm struggling, am 22nd in League Two and am coming off of the back of three straight defeats. I'm trying to play a simple 4-4-2 and be difficult to beat, using the high work rate and decent technical ability (but low pace) of my team.

My next match is against Mansfield and I will play it around 21.00 tomorrow (Thursday). What I will do is watch the game in detail, get some screenshots and come on here every ten minutes with updates, so that you can tell me where the devil I'm going wrong.

The set up is this. My tactics are:

And the only player instructions are for my keeper to distribute to defenders (so as not to give the ball away), my CM (S) to shoot more (as he has a decent long range shooting attribute), my AF to tackle harder (to try and close down defenders more and make them play the ball long) and my defensive forward to move into channels (to try and maximise his team work and work rate attributes by increasing his movement).

My opponents are Mansfield who are 20th, and we are at home, so we are looking to win. The scouting reports tell me that they will play 4-4-1-1:

So I could consider changing a CB to stopper or cover, depending on whether their forward looks to hold the ball up or run on to the ball.

Any suggestions before I start gratefully received. See you tomorrow, internet connection willing.

[Double0Seven]

I don't like your strikers. No one drops deep to connect to midfield with your attacks. Also why do you play balanced and counter? Any specific reasons for that?

[Cleon]

I don't like your strikers. No one drops deep to connect to midfield with your attacks. Also why do you play balanced and counter? Any specific reasons for that?

Your post seems to indicate there is something wrong with balanced and counter when there isn't, care to explain why you've put focus on this?

[AngryDad]

(1) The defensive forward does drop deep - in fact he seems to get rather too deep at times (I guess the clue is in the role title) and has so far scored 3 goals in about 20 games. I want to play two up front, but this does seem to leave me at risk of being overloaded in midfield. I have toyed with the idea of turning my CM(s) into an attacking playmaker, but haven't yet taken the plunge. Assuming you're going with 4 in midfield and 2 up front how would you organise the duties to ensure the necessary vertical movement? I realise it depends on the players at your disposal;

(2) I started out with a rigid / counter balance, with the thinking that, with a limited side, I wanted them to stick to their positions and roles and not try and be Ajax, but then realised that my overall plan, which is about utilising work rate and movement, conflicts with the idea that they should stick to their positions. So I switched to counter/fluid, and promptly got battered in 3 games running, so I have gone back to the plan which did actually look like it was beginning to work. I'm basically in the position at the moment of having to sacrifice the academic / theoretical approach to get points by any means necessary. Which, after all, is a pretty realistic simulation of real football management, which is what I'm after.

[alinp]

Given that you have a fairly poor team in a fairly poor league, I'd be inclined to play rigid/very rigid and tell players specifically what you want them to do. I doubt you have the players to leave it to their ability to work it out as they go along.

A DLP(D) works nicely in a 442 and will drop back and hold whilst others move forward. How about a BBM along side him? You have an Exploit the flanks instruction - so why not play with wingers instead of WM's. If you're going to cross, how about a TM for them to hit and then a 2nd striker that can feed off knock-downs (TM(S) & P(A) perhaps).

The DF will Hassle opponents, but if you have no-one else pressing, he's going to get a little ticked off and wonder why he's defending from the front if no-one else is going to bother, so perhaps think about what you want them to do as a team and ONLY use a PI if you want htat player to do something different.

This is of course just a little guesswork/logic on my part as I've not tried to play with a poor team in FM14 yet.

Anyway - hope that helps. Can't assist tonight as I'm out.

[AngryDad]

Thanks Alinp, very helpful. I have toyed with the DLP / BBM idea, but haven't gone for it yet - my best candidate for a DLP has a fairly low tackling attribute and I thought having him in that almost anchorman role might leave us exposed, while my best BBM candidate is very fit, but doesn't have a high work rate attribute. But I think if Mansfield turn us over that might be my next port of call. I have tried wingers rather than WMs, but with disappointing results. Also I had the perfect target man, and he did a decent job, but he's a loanee who's now out for 5 months - my other strikers are OK in the air but not sufficient to beat the 6 foot 6 Neanderthals that make the average L2 centre back.

What I am trying to do with the DF is not so much have a forward who defends, but who causes problems with his movement - his work rate is 16, he's fit and strong, but not quick. What I want him to do is to pull centre backs out of position, move into channels, link play between midfield and forwards and create gaps for the midfielders to run into. Is there a better way of achieving this than putting him as DF? I wondered about Deep Lying Forward, but that's not really what I mean - I imagine that just means someone that loiters outside of the box in a Teddy Sheringham mode, rather than the Wayne Rooney type (minus the ability but anyway) that I have in mind.

[alinp]

I think a CF(S) fits that description better.

[AngryDad]

Right, it's game time. As expected, Mansfield have lined up 4-4-1-1

I've gone with my Assistant Manager's suggestions for OIs, which are basically putting all their midfielders and strikers onto their weaker foot (which seems to always be his advice). I don't see anything special in their line up to watch out for.

Back in 10 minutes.

[AngryDad]

So, 10 minutes in and it's 0-0. I'm not entirely happy. They look a poor side, their passing is weak, but they've had 2 or 3 decent positions. We've only created one possible opportunity so far.

They did get one chance from a long ball which their forward ran on to, so I've put a CB onto cover - they're getting men behind the ball and not really supporting him.

There seems to be some space out wide on the right, so I've asked my right sided wide man to get further forward and dribble more, he is a decent winger.

We really need to be imposing more, we can deal with their long ball stuff, but look a bit suspect against the counter

[AngryDad]

20 minutes in, still 0-0, we've hit the bar after a decent move.

They were playing deep, so I put one of my CBs to man mark specifically their striker, with the other playing cover. I think though they sussed that, and started to get their AM forward more, so I switched that off again, just about in time, following this move;

They're definitely looking to play a counter attacking game, there seems to be acres of space out wide, but my players seem reluctant or unable to use it.

[AngryDad]

Half time and we've taken the lead! It was a fluke, a cross that went in, but I'll take it. Since then we've been under the cosh, and they have a nasty line in corners that swing right under the bar - so far my keeper's dealt with them, but for how long. That said, we had a clear chance on half time, which I'm not sure how my DF missed, but he's low on confidence.

The question now is, stick or twist? I'm not convinced I should be using counter rather than a defensive strategy to start with, we don't really seem to be a counter attacking side as I would understand it, with our lack of pace, but putting us on defensive always seems a bit negative. Anyway, I've tried to exploit the right flank, and also asked to pass into space to try and utilise it. The side are lacking in confidence so I'll try and boost it at half time. See you in a bit.

[AngryDad]

60 minutes in and we've gone 2 up. Which is a bit of a miracle, as Mansfield are threatening on the break, with their AM causing us problems, but a set piece goal has given us some breathing space. Long way to go though...

[AngryDad]

10 minutes to go. Still 2-0, but my centre back has just picked up a second yellow card. I've sacrificed a striker and brought on a centre back, and now will look to retain possession, move from defensive to contain in the last five.

[AngryDad]

We win! They also ended up with 10 and in fact we could have had 1 or 2 more in the final few minutes.

So, unconvincing performance, a fluke and a set piece goal, and we looked a bit ropey against the counter, but we get the 3 points. But no thanks to you, where were you all? Anyone would think you had better things to do

[AngryDad]

Just as a postscript - Alinp, I think I may love you. I changed my defensive forward to a complete forward (I'd shied away from that as I read many years ago that a complete forward should be a star player and I didn't think a league 2 journeyman was quite the thing) and went for the DLP / BBM combination, switched to rigid tactics, all of which I think is what I wanted to do from the start but was too timid. Result - two 3-1 wins, dominating performances and my complete forward scored his first goal for 26 matches. We're in 20th place now, and I'm feeling dizzy.

Anyone who has read these threads will know we've been here before - but I just might have cracked it ?!?

[jakem016]

One thing that I noticed that you may not want to go with your assisstant's ois. Considering that your opponent has a 3 v 2 in the middle of the pitch, I would be very hesitant to show all opponents to their weaker foot. Your opponents wms - or at least one of them - are likely wingers who will now be allowed to cut inside and further exploit this advantage. Personally, I would prefer them running wide and sending in crosses all game (unless your cbs suck in the air...even if their wms want to do this). Considering you're playing pretty deep/narrow, I would hope that my cbs could win the aerial battle and maybe even create a counter attack after winning defensive header. I would strive to push the opponent to the flank and show oppents to the that foot regadless of their preferred foot (unless you hope to force the ball to their weak link...in this case I would tight mark/close down this player and try to force the opponent to pass the ball to him).

[alinp]

Just as a postscript - Alinp, I think I may love you. I changed my defensive forward to a complete forward (I'd shied away from that as I read many years ago that a complete forward should be a star player and I didn't think a league 2 journeyman was quite the thing) and went for the DLP / BBM combination, switched to rigid tactics, all of which I think is what I wanted to do from the start but was too timid. Result - two 3-1 wins, dominating performances and my complete forward scored his first goal for 26 matches. We're in 20th place now, and I'm feeling dizzy.

Anyone who has read these threads will know we've been here before - but I just might have cracked it ?!?

Feeling proud

Thanks for your kind words.

[AngryDad]

One more game played and another win, vs Plymouth, 2-1 at home. Actually it wasn't that great, they were a shockingly poor side, bottom of the table and didn't manage a pass to their own team for the first 25 minutes, by which time we were 2 goals up. I was anticipating a hiding at that stage, but we ended up hanging on for grim life.

The key with my formation seems to be width. My full backs are good attacking players who often add the extra man, but the wide midfielders often seem reluctant to drive on to the byline and get crosses in, even with player instructions to do so. Their crossing is also a bit suspect. We've got a few tougher games to play now, which I should get through this week and then maybe I'll really know if I'm on the right road.

[Dr. Hook]

then maybe I'll really know if I'm on the right road.

Aside from this, it seems to me that you are enjoying this, which is a great leap forward from where you started, and is the most important result of all!

[alinp]

One more game played and another win, vs Plymouth, 2-1 at home. Actually it wasn't that great, they were a shockingly poor side, bottom of the table and didn't manage a pass to their own team for the first 25 minutes, by which time we were 2 goals up. I was anticipating a hiding at that stage, but we ended up hanging on for grim life.

The key with my formation seems to be width. My full backs are good attacking players who often add the extra man, but the wide midfielders often seem reluctant to drive on to the byline and get crosses in, even with player instructions to do so. Their crossing is also a bit suspect. We've got a few tougher games to play now, which I should get through this week and then maybe I'll really know if I'm on the right road.

How about playing the FB's as WB's & asking the WM's to Sit Narrower - this should encourage the FB's to overlap naturally thus providing that width allowing the WM's to stay as part of a compact midfield... just a thought

[AngryDad]

I did ask the WMs to sit narrower for a period but with disappointing results. What I was hoping was that they would push into the channels and the spaces between full backs and centre backs, but they seem to sit resolutely in the same area when attacking, about 40 yards from goal, and always look to play the ball inside to one of the central midfielders rather than take the full back on. I've tried "dribble more" "cross from byline" and training PPMs, but they're still not as direct as I want. The FBs are fine in terms of going forward, and the best moves that I have had usually involve one or other of them overlapping and making the spare man. Problem there is that these often end with a wild shot or cross that goes out for a goal kick as, being defenders, their technical ability is pretty ordinary. But the Wing Back role is definitely one to consider and maybe I need to make a virtue out of necessity and tweak to make the overlap a more important attacking tool.

I've also got a problem with 2 right sided midfielders out for a month at the moment. I hadn't realised at the start that there was an annual limit on players that you can sign on loan, so merrily signed players for a month to cover short term injuries (including one who never actually played a competitive match) so I only have two more, one of which I will need to use for a striker when current loans finish. So I've got my 3rd choice right midfielder, a striker who is accomplished as a right midfielder and an U-18 player who may or may not make the grade to cover for the next few games, so any tactical lessons learned that rely on that side of the pitch might be a bit limited.

And you are right Dr Hook, I am enjoying it, rather more this week on the back of four straight wins than last on the back of 3 defeats. The key to that is progress - don't mind losing as long as you can understand why and can believe that improvement is within reach. Before I started on this journey I was going through spells of 6 or 7 games without a shot on target - I think as LCEaves says on a different thread, my problem was that I was playing FM11 on FM14 - this is a different game, and simply switching on "shorter passing" and "get stuck in" for every game won't cut it. But I've never put as much in to FM as this version and so never got as much out of it - just hoping that the 10 game losing streak isn't just around the corner...

[alinp]

It would be interesting to see some screenshots of your current set up to see how it's changed and what else may be possible.

[AngryDad]

This is what I'm going with at the moment Alinp -

I'm thinking of taking up your suggestion about wing backs, or alternatively making one or both wide men wingers - if we're playing rigid then there's room for more specialists I think.

Played five since I was last on and didn't win any of them. That's not quite as bad as it sounds - I lost two games away from home where I thought we were the better side, and decided to twist rather than stick going into the last 10 only to lose a late goal both times. Had 2 home games against decent teams, both of which were draws where again I thought we were the better side. We've had some injury problems though and my reserves are weak. My last game was the most disappointing - at home to Exeter who had to field their 3rd choice keeper, I told the team to shoot on sight but my first shot was in the 75th minute by which time we were 2 down. They played five in midfield and absolutely dominated, their extra man meaning they could play a passing game going forward leaving our midfield chasing shadows and blocking up the space when we had the ball. When we finally did find our shooting boots we actually scored two goals ourselves, and ended up with a 2-2 draw that we did not deserve.

But back to the flankers, this is what I mean.

From here I want the man to take the full back on. But he will more often than not look back or sideways and pass, giving the opposition time to get back. I have tried dribble more, cross from the byline and making them wingers rather than wide midfielders, but so far no avail. Is this just a personnel thing?

[AngryDad]

So tonight’s first game will be away at high flying Oxford. We have had some trouble with teams playing five in midfield, and with our current poor run I will be focussing on bus parking and trying to nick something on the break. Given that all of my tried and familiar formations are variations of 4-4-2 I am wondering whether I should consider reverting in game to 4-5-1 or similar, to match the number of players in midfield and make us harder to break down, as a one-off. Obviously there is a risk from tactical familiarity, but does anyone out there think this is a terrible idea for other reasons?

[AngryDad]

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have a problem.

It comes against teams playing 4-1-2-2-1, with two wide AMs. Basically, every single game, this happens:

Central midfielder (Cavanagh) plays ball to target man (Baseya) on edge of area:

Target man holds ball up and then plays it behind my full back to AMR:

AMR runs past full back and blasts ball into the net:

I've tried playing a CB as cover, man marking the player, defending deeper, but nothing seems to work. I don't think it's realistic to try and keep the ball awy from the target man for the entire 90 minutes. So how the hell do I stop this from happening?

[Dr. Hook]

I *would* try to stop the supply in this case. How is your left back defensively in terms of positioning, etc.? Maybe when facing this formation you need to pick someone better defensively? He seems to be back okay, but is just losing his man. But, I would close down and tight mark that lone forward. Set your two CBs on him, even. Another alternative might be to drop your holding CM into the DM spot to provide additional cover.

[AngryDad]

I am losing my religion.

Just had my tenth game without a win, a 2-1 home defeat against Bury. We're 20th, 2 points clear of relegation. Started well, but got pegged back, and I can't see where I'm going wrong. I don't know what I'm looking for, I'm watching 20-30 minutes of each game on full game and everything seems OK until we concede and then the other team turn into Brazil, while we either can't see a 5 yard pass or see it and pass it to the opposition anyway. I've had one talk with the board about a performance and the sack can't be far away. We're away at Fleetwood next game, and frankly we have no chance. I'd abandon the tactic, but replace it with what?

[AngryDad]

A 3-1 defeat at Fleetwood. Frankly, I gave up. We conceded after 10 minutes from a free kick, I turned the highlights to fast, sat back and left them to it. Seeing as most of the tweaks I do seem to have no effect or worse there didn't seem to be much point.

The board have given me a target of 10 points from the next five games. That's 10 more than I got from the last five. I suspect I have two more games and it's all over.

[alinp]

I note you only have one TI - but you seem to make reference to a number of PI's. Are you over-complicating? I'd be inclined to get your team "style" sorted first before fine tuning with PI's.

HTH

[AngryDad]

I've added some PIs to a couple of players (the wide midfielders) just to try and get them to carry the ball to the byline and cross it instead of turning back inside and bringing the attack to a grinding halt, but not much other than that I don't think.

Anyway, I shall start a new thread soon, and will give even more detail on the tactic, the opposition and so on, in a desperate bid to save my game. And if that goes wrong, I shall start all over again. I say again, I shall not be beaten.

[aderow]

Aside from this, it seems to me that you are enjoying this, which is a great leap forward from where you started, and is the most important result of all!

Amen to this

I've added some PIs to a couple of players (the wide midfielders) just to try and get them to carry the ball to the byline and cross it instead of turning back inside and bringing the attack to a grinding halt, but not much other than that I don't think.

Anyway, I shall start a new thread soon, and will give even more detail on the tactic, the opposition and so on, in a desperate bid to save my game. And if that goes wrong, I shall start all over again. I say again, I shall not be beaten.

Calm down. Take a deep breath. You got this mate. And remember whatever happens happens. What's important is you learn and try to understand why it happened and make sure to learn from it.

[AngryDad]

Yes, I guess I'm still on the learning curve. I'm frustrated with myself, as one of the key lessons is not to rush this game, but I still decided on a quick game the other day when I had 20 minutes to spare and ended up having to speed through a game and conceding a late equaliser. And I should definitely have turned it off and walked away before the Fleetwood game.

Oh well, if it goes wrong I shall go back to the beginning and start again with the Dons. I need to play the loan market better, arrange a load more pre-season friendlies against cannon fodder, take more control of PPMs and I can also make some more immediate changes to the playing staff. Some of this is borderline cheating in my book, but it's my game and I'll cheat if I want to

But let's see if I can get the 10 points in 5 games first...