The Manchester United thread 2006/2007 - featuring BBB leaving early

[Young Jimlad]

Ah forget it then. Completely wrong on my part. Has he taken Jonah's number? Wasn't he given 25 this season?

[Mika]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BBB:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mika:

I agree tbf, there's a shop near me that sells them at 20p each and I have 5 here </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

20p?! bloody hell </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

5 for £1 yeah, awesome stuff really.

[Nick OGS20]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Young Jimlad:

He's unlikely to have been assigned one if he's spent the last few months on loan at Antwerp isn't he?

In saying that Dong has been given one.

Actually, thinking about it, I've completely lost track of where our youngsters are out on loan and who's come back and everything... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Shawcross, Gray, Campbell, Gibson, Mamam all at Antwerp. Evans at Sunderland, Eckersley at Barnsley, Rossi at Parma, Bardsley at Villa, Foster at Watford, Howard at Everton. Think that's it.

Simpson and Dong have returned from Antwerp, Martin back from Rangers, Eagles back from NEC Nijmegen. Wouldn't surprise me to see them all go back out though.

[BBB]

I'm not ******** I know 5X20p equals a quid

[Mika]

Just checking.

[Nick OGS20]

Jonah's number

[gonch19]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Nick OGS20:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">""During half-time, the coach told us," Flamini told L'Equipe.

"He asked us to remain focused and strong because Manchester will give up physically in the last 20 minutes.

"He said: 'They are not the same anymore after 70 minutes'. Once again, the coach was right!" </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nothing more than a psychological half-time pep talk from Wenger, or has he got a point there?

Worth noting that Queiroz (with Valter di Salvo in tow) was heavily criticised for his approach to fitness training at Madrid, where his team were dubbed 'the sixty/seventy minute wonders'. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

you know something, this has got me thinking and there could really be something in it. 12 of our 18 goals conceded have been in the 2nd half, and we have been prone to giving away leads or late goals quite often this campaign. its an interesting point.

[Nick OGS20]

all three defeats to late goals as well.

[gonch19]

if jimlad did the round up it would have to be 5 times the thread itself

[Young Jimlad]

Cheers Nick.

Btw, how do you go about rating Mamam? The rest you've obviously seen in the youth/reserve teams but as far as I know Mamam has been on loan at Antwerp and hasn't come over since we signed him up. At least Dong has been on pre-season tours.

Also, is it viable to assume that, out of all those players the four most likely to depart at the end of the season are Eckersley, Bardsley, Howard and Eagles.

The rest seem to be either too young to abandon at this point in their development or too promising to allow to leave. With those four, and with Eckersley I am only going on his rep, the loans seem to be precursors to them leaving for the teams they are at now or for teams of a similar level. I might be being a bit harsh on Barsley but with O'Shea and Wes still in the mix I think he'll be behind them as far as being Gary's deputy goes in Fergie's eyes.

[gonch19]

villa in the cup one of the few games we have actually won in the final 10 minutes? cmiiw

[BBB]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> “It’s all true. I could have been a Red Devil. Manchester United representatives contacted me in August.†Del Piero told Sky Italia.

“At first I was flattered, but I never really thought of leaving Juventus. I’ve been playing 13 years in this club and I want to finish my career here.â€

“I’m sure Alex Ferguson understood my decision.†</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

aw man, legend :*(

[Young Jimlad]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gonch19:

if jimlad did the round up it would have to be 5 times the thread itself </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yep, longer and more valuable than the United Opus and you'd all love every syllable.

[Nick OGS20]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Young Jimlad:

Cheers Nick.

Btw, how do you go about rating Mamam? The rest you've obviously seen in the youth/reserve teams but as far as I know Mamam has been on loan at Antwerp and hasn't come over since we signed him up. At least Dong has been on pre-season tours.

Also, is it viable to assume that, out of all those players the four most likely to depart at the end of the season are Eckersley, Bardsley, Howard and Eagles.

The rest seem to be either too young to abandon at this point in their development or too promising to allow to leave. With those four, and with Eckersley I am only going on his rep, the loans seem to be precursors to them leaving for the teams they are at now or for teams of a similar level. I might be being a bit harsh on Barsley but with O'Shea and Wes still in the mix I think he'll be behind them as far as being Gary's deputy goes in Fergie's eyes. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

As far as Mamam goes (and indeed Dong), that's entirely down to the Antwerp researcher. I'll get to rate Dong (arf) in the summer, at the moment he's not even in my file.

Suspect you're right about departures, for exactly the reasons you state. Eagles needs to move for his own sake, same with Eckersley really, suspect loaning them is purely to try and attract a bid from someone rather than having to release them or wait until their contract runs down. Howard will stay with Everton I reckon, and if he does alright I can see Bardsley staying at Villa. As you say, Wes + O'Shea + Danny Simpson means the right-back position is well covered.

[Young Jimlad]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BBB:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> “It’s all true. I could have been a Red Devil. Manchester United representatives contacted me in August.†Del Piero told Sky Italia.

“At first I was flattered, but I never really thought of leaving Juventus. I’ve been playing 13 years in this club and I want to finish my career here.â€

“I’m sure Alex Ferguson understood my decision.†</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

aw man, legend :*( </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

When was that quote taken?

He's actually been making noises recently that if Juve don't invest properly next summer he'd seriously consider going. Not that I'd take him, he's not been the potential world-beater he could've been since his knee injury in the late 90s. Even as a super-sub I'd be sceptical about his potential impact.

[Young Jimlad]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Nick OGS20:

As far as Mamam goes (and indeed Dong), that's entirely down to the Antwerp researcher. I'll get to rate Dong (arf) in the summer, at the moment he's not even in my file. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Cool, thanks for clearing that up. Wondered how they/you'd deal with it.

[mark g]

Yet another one of Fergie's "i wanted him 5 years ago, so i'll try to get him now even though he's past it" attempts.

[gonch19]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Young Jimlad:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gonch19:

if jimlad did the round up it would have to be 5 times the thread itself </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yep, longer and more valuable than the United Opus and you'd all love every syllable. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

i flicked through the opus in the megastore against villa to kill some time before kick off. its ****ing huge

[Nick OGS20]

i'd have happily welcomed Del Piero if we hadn't got Henke, in a similar role. brilliant player, although more 'past it' than Henke I guess. would have loved to have seen him at OT in his prime.

[Young Jimlad]

Beppe's got Milan, Fiorentina and Roma in his next three games. Mon him sinking all three

He'll have to do it by himself as well because I've just looked at Parma's squad list and they are utter dross. If he didn't get games there then I would be very worried.

Anyway, after that Parma have got Braga in the UEFA Cup. Has Fergie said whether or not he can play in that comp now that he's there until the end of the season? There must be an imminent deadline for the CL squads that he's decided that Rossi isn't going to be a part of otherwise why send him out again (thats questionable in some lights anyway)? A bit of Euro experience would be ideal as well for the lad.

[Nick OGS20]

he'll definitely be allowed to play i'd have thought. pretty sure once the window's shut we can't recall him so there'd be nothing to lose.

[Young Jimlad]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Nick OGS20:

i'd have happily welcomed Del Piero if we hadn't got Henke, in a similar role. brilliant player, although more 'past it' than Henke I guess. would have loved to have seen him at OT in his prime. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'd argue that he never reached his prime. No doubt he was brilliant in his youth and up until his mid-20s but that first knee injury in 98/99 has stalled him ever since. Its not like he's not had his good moments, purple patches & successes since - he is a World Cup winner after all - but as far as his personal impact on the game has gone it could have been much, much bigger.

Anyway, like you say, Henke, despite being a couple of years older, is clearly less past-it, and its not just his physical condition thats helped him maintain a higher level, but his mental strength as well in my eyes. I know arguments can be made for him spending much of his career in less taxing leagues, but for me the last point is proved by his comeback from a knee injury to play a big part in Barca's success last year.

[deanb291186]

RE: the conceeding mainly in the second half point, does anyone agree with what Flamini said, that we tend to tire after 70mins, or do you think its just lack of concentration or bad luck?

[Nick OGS20]

apparently the Sun are running with it on their back page tomorrow.

i'd imagine Wenger was fuming, probably thought he'd identified a secret weakness. now there's no excuse for not to at least investigate whether there's an issue there.

personally i think we simply can't defend leads, we're being too cautious when leading, making silly tactical changes (as wenger has been prone to do himself in the past) and doing the old england-under-eriksson trick of dropping deeper and deeper and inviting pressure on ourselves. does seem a bit too much of a coincidence that Queiroz and Di Salvo were so lambasted for their fitness training at Madrid though.

doesn't help when some of our younger players aren't exactly the most clean-living.

[Nick OGS20]

also yesterday i do think lack of concentration played a huge part. we'd defended pretty much impeccably until the equaliser, then people just switch off all over the shop (Nev for the first, arguably the centre-backs too, and definitely Rio for the second)

[pjburrage]

a combination of the lot, we do seem to slow down when 1 or 2 up in the last 20 minutes. But I think we just let our centration slip as we feel we are almost there. But there is also so luck involved. Take Arsenal's first, two occasions could have gone our way, firstly when there was a scramble between the 4 players on the far side, the ball could have bounced out of that in our favour, then Van Persie has managed to slip the ball just inside the post, another time it could easily have hit the side netting.

[gonch19]

not just yesterday, its happened loads. you could argue thats because we have got ourselves into comfortable positions in the first place, but games like reading (h), wigan (h), hammers, arsenal home and away etc we have conceded late goals

[mark g]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Nick OGS20:

also yesterday i do think lack of concentration played a huge part. we'd defended pretty much impeccably until the equaliser, then people just switch off all over the shop (Nev for the first, arguably the centre-backs too, and definitely Rio for the second) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was pretty sure it was Vidic who lost Henry.

[ACou2000]

in the reading/wigan games it was certainly a case of "job done - lose concentration" (ta Silvestre)

in the away Hammers and Arsenal games it was just not playing well enough, whether it be because of dodgy formations or underperforming individuals, or both

[ACou2000]

All I remember about that header is he was slap bang in between Vidic and Rio... not sure who "lost" the man

[gonch19]

btw mika you are talking ****, we werent dominated yesterday by any stretch of the imagination bar the last 10 minutes

[ACou2000]

we werent dominated but I'd say Arsenal, looking at the game as a whole, were the better side... and we can have no complaints about how it turned out

[Young Jimlad]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mark g:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Nick OGS20:

also yesterday i do think lack of concentration played a huge part. we'd defended pretty much impeccably until the equaliser, then people just switch off all over the shop (Nev for the first, arguably the centre-backs too, and definitely Rio for the second) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was pretty sure it was Vidic who lost Henry. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I didn't watch any of the post-match stuff after the game yesterday (well technically Sunday now), couldn't stomach it, but when I watched it on youtube this morning I was almost certain it was Rio that Henry drifted away from.

[Mika]

Did I say dominated? If not I suggest you get you facts right. I said Arsenal were the better team and I stand by that.

[gonch19]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ACou2000:

we werent dominated but I'd say Arsenal, looking at the game as a whole, were the better side... and we can have no complaints about how it turned out </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

i disagree, i think we more than matched them for 80+ minutes

[DeafParrot]

The ball was just played into a perfect area really. Neither player "lost" Henry as such. The cross was too high for Vidic and swung enough to take Ferdinand out of the equation.

[deanb291186]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ACou2000:

All I remember about that header is he was slap bang in between Vidic and Rio... not sure who "lost" the man </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That happened a few times in the game, I remember the Adebayor header that was poor, its Vidics fault, he doesnt get tight to the man just concentrates on attacking the ball

[DeafParrot]

For purely research purposes.

[gonch19]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mika:

outplayed for the majority of the match and fluke a lucky goal </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[ACou2000]

yeah watching that, Vidic's fault certainly

shame cos Nemanja wfb for most of the game

[Mika]

And then underneath I withdrew that? Jesus Christ.

[ACou2000]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gonch19:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ACou2000:

we werent dominated but I'd say Arsenal, looking at the game as a whole, were the better side... and we can have no complaints about how it turned out </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

i disagree, i think we more than matched them for 80+ minutes </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

well you're with Fergie on that one.. wondering how we lost given how well we were holding them at bay or whatever

as far as I could see though, they had more possession, they were pushing whilst we occasionaly broke away but generally had little substance to our attacks, and frankly them scoring a goal was inevitable to me

[DeafParrot]

Yeah actually, when I freeze it as the cross comes in, Ferdinand has 2 players on him. Vidic slightly too far away from his man.

[ACou2000]

thing is... earlier on Vidic is a bit closer to Henry AND he has him in his sights.. whereas Rio is covering the near post and cant see exactly where TH is.

Vidic should definitely have tracked Henry when he just drifted away from him a bit

[ACou2000]

btw I havent yet said a single thing positive about yesterday.

so here's something - Rooney did score

[Mika]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mika:

Outplay maybe sounds a bit strong, but they were the better team. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

In case your failing eyes missed it gonch.

[gonch19]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ACou2000:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gonch19:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ACou2000:

we werent dominated but I'd say Arsenal, looking at the game as a whole, were the better side... and we can have no complaints about how it turned out </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

i disagree, i think we more than matched them for 80+ minutes </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

well you're with Fergie on that one.. wondering how we lost given how well we were holding them at bay or whatever

as far as I could see though, they had more possession, they were pushing whilst we occasionaly broke away but generally had little substance to our attacks, and frankly them scoring a goal was inevitable to me </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

yeh i too thought theyd score, we were just hanging on towards the end. but on the balance of the 90 minutes, like mark hughes says, i think we were good value.

[ACou2000]

not sure many from either side could have argued with a draw.

but we didnt deserve a win. and we cant really moan about losing.

imo.

[Young Jimlad]

Looking at that again we look so completely lost at sea when the ball comes in.

The ball was damn-near perfect for Henry but if it had dropped a bit deeper for Baptista we'd have been just as screwed.

I understand why people are saying Vidic but he's got Adebayor to deal with, Gary is miles away from van Persie if it hits the back post, Rooney and Carrick (I think its him) have left Baptista on his own if it goes deep as I state above, and Henry is there, ghosting in behind Rio because he's positioned himself much too far away from him in anticipation of a near post cross that never came. Too much attention paid to whats in front of him and not enough behind. He's with him at the edge of the 18 yrd box but then he steps forward and leaves Vidic overloaded.

I'm not saying that the cross didn't make it, but the way it was delivered capitalised on the poor positioning of our team as it came in.

[Nick OGS20]

it's Rio's fault primarily for me, but no-one covers themselves in glory. Henry is Rio's man, Rio's nowhere near him.

i didn't think our performance was that bad, certainly didn't think we deserved to lose. we had the better chances first half, and at times i thought we were very comfortable and completely in control. didn't deal with arsenal's substitutions, in addition to the other problems we have defending a lead. don't think there could have been too many complaints had we hung on to our lead frankly.

tactically, i'm not even that anti-451/433. i can see the logic for playing it, we're just going about it the wrong way - trying to cram out 442 players into a 451/433 and as such it doesn't work how it should for us and we negate our best players in an attacking sense.

when we play it yesterday, we basically play 4-4-1-1, ronaldo and rooney wide (the former pushed on more) and giggs in the hole. this basically compromises at least four of our players - rooney stuck out wide offers defensive diligence, hard work but we lose his creativity in the middle. giggs in the hole is not even half the player he is out wide. ronaldo hasn't got the freedom to go forward he ordinarily would have, and larsson (or whoever plays centre-forward) is left incredibly isolated (not least because giggs doesn't really know how to play off the striker).

if we really want to play that way (and again, i can see the logic in a game like yesterday, even if i don't necessarily agree with it), there are two much better approaches to take. #1 is to swap Ronaldo and Giggs - you get Giggs' superior defensive work on the wing and you give Ronaldo freedom to roam. Ronaldo's still not the ideal 'second striker' though and it doesn't solve the Rooney problem. my preferred approach is #2 - go to a very defined 433, drop Giggs, play Fletch (or Hargreaves if he signs, arf). Ronaldo and Rooney play as advanced wingers (as Ole and Giggs did when we actually got the 433 to work), and they can push on because we've got the extra defensive body (especially an energetic, close-everything-down midfielder like Fletch/OH) covering them and protecting the fullbacks.

or, erm, just play 442 ofc