The Way I Play FM - Contructive Feedback Required :)

[Letissier1980]

Hi,

I have been playing FM since 93' and have never been a tactical genius, but have always muddled through. This year I believe that I have had to think more about the tactical side so would like to post about how I play the game for constructive feedback on how to improve and adapt. So here goes.......................

I have started first season unemployed as a Sunday league footballer, and got my first job with Bath City. I decided to play a Balanced / Counter 4-1-4-1 and managed to finish 7th. I am now in the second season and whilst I'm top of the league I just do not feel I am getting the best out of the team. I have read all the threads over the years and hopefully you will see that my team is based upon wwfans guide, LLama's guide and my interpretation of THOG guide.

Ok - So these Pictures should give you a grasp of my board expectations and squad strengths and weaknesses.

Next up are the tactics I am using.

Player Instructions as follows. Positions not shown are default.

In attack, using a Balanced philosophy I believe that the duties would be determine the more attacking players. I am hoping that the Attacking wing back will create space on the left, with the LWM supporting defensive work and the LCM attacking as a Shadow Striker. The Treq will exploit space and create and provide for the SS and the RIF with the RCM providing cover for the mid and the RWB on a support duty. The anchor man will hold and create a defensive triangle with the CB's. The 4-5-1 will create a hard to break down defensive unit.

Now you can see how I have set up, I hope I can provoke some thoughts from you guys. My next aim will be to play a game and show you my thoughts and processes for which I believe this is my biggest fault in the game. I just cannot react logically to how the AI manager plays against me or maybe I could just not be getting the most out of my team.

I have seen many people comment about struggling during the actual game so if I can help just one person by making myself look stupid then I believe this will be a success.

Best Wishes - Darren

[RTHerringbone]

It's a shame that this hasn't been commented on yet, as it's a well written and presented thread

I like what you have done with the WM (Attack), as it mimics to an extent the movement of an IF. I assume you are hoping for him to be a presence in the box alongside the Treq and the CM (A)?

When you watch matches, how is the interplay between these three players?

I rarely use a Trequartista as the focal point of my side (not for any good reason, I just don't do it!) so am interested to see if his Roaming in search of the ball ever leaves you short of a reference point up front. My own preference in single striker formations is to use a CF (S). A Trequartista is essentially a Support Duty in spite of the Attack label, so there's no reason for it not to work.

[Letissier1980]

Hi RT - thanks for your reply. I was a bit gutted no one had offered their thoughts

Yes you are correct, I wanted my two goal scoring players to be the LCM on attack duty and my RWM who is acting as an inside forward. I wanted the treq to float around, be an outlet and create space by occupying the defenders. I chose balanced to get those players to be more aggressive through the roles and duties I chose.

I'm finding that my inside forward and my CM is not getting involved enough, I have toyed with asking the treq to hold up the ball but just not getting the vertical movement from the players.

I did start with the team instructions last season of wwfans post in the Barcelona thread about Real Madrid with the drop deeper and more direct shouts but eventually deleted them as it was just not working for me.

Over the weekend I will play a game and take screenshots with notes of the changes (if I needed to) so you can see how I might be interpreting things wrong compared to the more established players.

Many thanks for your reply

Darren

[RTHerringbone]

Any idea why the WM (A) and CM (A) aren't getting involved?

It would suggest that as a team you aren't getting enough of the ball to let the WM behave like an IF (i.e. he isn't receiving the ball).

If so, your Mentality might be a little too cautious. Might warrant moving up to Standard to see if a higher initial line allows you to contest for the ball earlier, and get it to those two key midfielders.

[peleJunior]

Your MR, Josh Low is it? His crossing is pretty good but you have him to cross less often? His Long Shots are good too but you have him with shoot less often, I think you are restricting this guy a little too much, he looks like one your better players. Your shape and roles look very good and balanced so I think it is just about getting the players instructions right or getting the right players for how you want to play the roles.

[aderow]

My next aim will be to play a game and show you my thoughts and processes for which I believe this is my biggest fault in the game. I just cannot react logically to how the AI manager plays against me or maybe I could just not be getting the most out of my team.

Mate this has been my biggest problem too. I've always reacted way too late.

Your MR, Josh Low is it? His crossing is pretty good but you have him to cross less often? His Long Shots are good too but you have him with shoot less often, I think you are restricting this guy a little too much, he looks like one your better players. Your shape and roles look very good and balanced so I think it is just about getting the players instructions right or getting the right players for how you want to play the roles.

I think the reason he's gone with those instructions isn't to 'restrict' said player but rather to deliberately create a particular kind of movement in the right wide mid.

In my 451, I use a CF(s) with roam from position instruction so essentially I don't see why a treq shouldn't work.

I'm finding that my inside forward and my CM is not getting involved enough, I have toyed with asking the treq to hold up the ball but just not getting the vertical movement from the players.

When you say they aren't getting involved do you mean in build up? Or do you mean as far as getting on the end of chances? Because for the former I'd suggest removing get further forward. My players with attack duties in my midfield get forward plenty without it. And for the latter I'd suggest the same thing that RTH did; maybe try increasing your mentality to standard.

[Letissier1980]

Aderow you are bang on. I wanted to start a game where I could create my brand of football and earn my way to manage a top club through my own tactical nous. I aim to achieve this by creating my own brand of football, meaning that I am more focused on what I am trying to achieve rather than just muddling through like I have done before. This is where I believe fm is developing as a game. Rather than just selecting a formation and picking the best 5 star players and holding space bar to get the game over with (which I used to do), I think the game is helping us create the type of football we want, however diverse we want. Getting back to your quote - yes I want Low to play a certain way and I am hoping he will still use his skills of crossing and long shots but only when it should be the best option rather than looking for him to cross and shoot every time.

I meant my CM and RWM are not getting in on the end of chances because that's what I want them to do. I am hoping my Treq, LWM, RCM and wing backs will provide the supply and movement to create the space for them.

I really hope with this I can help the people (and myself) with this thread by asking the stupid questions and doing the stupid things that maybe people can not put into words on the threads. A picture can tell a thousand words so I intend to write a diary on my next game with screenshots and why my stupid mind made me make this decision!!!! Many will laugh but if I can help one person to stop rage quitting and to offer a different perspective, then I will be very proud. And I'll have the bonus of getting your guys support. It can only be a win win for me

Cheers

Darren

[janeka]

Looking forward to that Letissier Just one request, is it possible to make your images a little more bigger?

[Letissier1980]

Looking forward to that Letissier Just one request, is it possible to make your images a little more bigger?

Yes my friend - I was a little disappointed with the pics myself. I'll try, funny that my wife always asks that as well

[Letissier1980]

Okay So here goes. Please go easy on me, this game has just taken over an hour to play - now I am into the write up.

For this game I am away to Concord Rangers. The Manager is Danny Cowley who will play a 4-1-2-2-1. Pressing - Mixed, Style - Mixed and Mentality - Balanced. I am 1/2 Favourites and not playing all of my first team due to lack of fitness. I do not use opposition instructions as I feel it takes me away from what I want to achieve. I use my Ass Man to take team talks. Finally the weather is Breezy / Drizzle on 08/11/14. Following the advice from above I have made the decision NOT to change anything, so I will be playing Balanced / Counter. The reason for this is that you guys can see my thought process and we can dissect from the start and if required I can push it up to standard for the next game.

My Notes went as follows:

03:00 Feel as if the RWB could be getting further to create space for the RIF - NO ACTION TAKEN

08:00 The LWM seems to be drawing out the DM - NO ACTION TAKEN

How it looked after 10 mins:

Thoughts - Add 'pass into space' to take advantage of their high defensive line and 'play wider' or 'exploit the flanks' to exploit the space between AR/L's and full backs.

I did not take any action as after that we scored to go 0-1 up.

20:00 Opposition giving a lot of possession away trying to put through balls past our deep defence - we then counter to go 0-2 up.

25:00 Should I go higher tempo or direct as RCM (S) not pushing the ball quickly forward enough when a break was on.

This is how it looked after 30 mins:

32:00 Are we a threat down the right? - could the RWB (S) have 'get further forward' - but would that just make him a RWB (A)????? Then would we be unbalanced????

42:00 Are the central midfield too compact and close together - I would prefer them to be giving each other options by being wider.

So this is how it was at half time:

[Letissier1980]

So after half time Concord make 2 subs and swap players around in their system - I believe the New AMR changes from an inside F to a winger

47:00 Are we closing down too much? - No action taken and it seemed to be a one off in the end.

51:00 AMR is coming inside to much for my liking - 2 chances created - Changed LB to FB (A) and to 'sit narrower' so he hopefully will be in a better starting spot to deal with him.

This is how it looked at 60 mins:

65:00 Starting to give ball away and not completing passes in midfield - 'Retain possession' shout used.

68:00 I Made 2 x Substitues to replace tired guys. CM's still too narrow.

69:00 My RWM not coming inside as I would like.

This is how it looked at 75 mins:

75:00 my last sub

84:00 Activated 'Pass into space' to try and take the pressure off the final onslaught and take advantage of a gung ho approach from them.

So the game finished like this.

So there it is. Watching it on Full really helped as I could see in the first half that we were containing the opposition, if it was on key I believe that I would of been panicking as the highlights would be showing that they were doing a lot of attacking. I do believe my goals were quite lucky and I feel that there is work to be done to make this a little bit more fluid. For instance - I am sure my RB could be creating space for my RWM by occupying the opposition LB, and my CM could offer more options when retaining the ball. I like the fact my AM covers the left back at times so maybe he could also cover the RB but I am worried about losing the balance at the back. Whilst defending my biggest problem is dealing with wide players that come inside my fullbacks. I felt I dealt with this today - maybe I will need to use this permanently. What will be the downside of using this? I assume it would be against wingers I will be allowing them a lot of space to cross.

Cheers

Darren

[keef]

I don't have anything to contribute here, except to say that this is fantastic. Keep it up. I love the attention to detail, so much more than i have the attention span for.

[Letissier1980]

Cheers mate. I wanted to take pics of transitions and where my players were and what they were doing as well. Then a couple of hours had gone.......

I would really like some feedback and just bounce ideas, like RT was trying to provoke thought but I am just not getting any. It's a shame because I really do want to improve my understanding and I feel as if I have reached a plateau from what I know myself.

Anyone who would like to input their two pennies please feel free.

Regards

Darren

[Jyuan83]

Hi Letissier80, i also have the same issue as you in getting my WM to be more prolific in terms of goals and assists. What i have found is that further forward for wide players are not as effective as with CM(a) especially. The configuration that i am trying now is roam, cross less often for my WM(a). Quite good at the moment. I feel that playing narrower will give him less space to move into. Cutting inside on FM 14 is quite frankly overrated. The number of goals scored from my inside forwards thus far have been from anything except cutting in to blast a shot. Hence my omission of cuuting inside for my WM. You can try roam, cut in and cross less often for your WM and see if it helps!.

[RTHerringbone]

That's an image heavy pair of posts!

Possibly analysis paralysis for somebody as lazy as me to dissect, but the text in among the images indicates that you are thinking well about the things you see,

At 25:00 where you say: "Should I go higher tempo or direct as RCM (S) not pushing the ball quickly forward enough when a break was on.", I'd fiddle with PIs and ask him to try More Direct Passes. My preference is always to try to "fix" the things you don't like via TIs rather than PIs, so I wouldn't tinker with tempo, as that will affect all players.

2-0 away is a decent start.

[Jimbokav1971]

[Please note that this was written as I was reading through so it's quite possible that you will have answered some points already]

What I initially find interesting is your focus is on the "Team Comparison" pages. I can't remember the last time I looked at these in my save.

Do you mind if I ask why you have your DCR & GK passing the ball shorter, but no similar instruction is given to the DLC? Is this because of the individual player playing at DLC?

Are you finding that both WB's stay wide enough? The MR is asked to cut inside and roam and the ML is asked to both shoot and cross left often. Are your WB's crossing more often as a result?

I haven't had good experiences with a Treq so didn't persist with them. I can see what you want to achieve though and why you have done this.

Are you going to be a bit toothless going forward?

How would you feel about both of your wide players playing in the AM line rather than the M line? I just think that the Treq is going to be roaming and you need players to be actually up there as an outlet even if they don't stay up there.

I agree with Janke about bigger images by the way. I have enlarged and I still have to guess on some roles, (and couldn't work out who you had subbed off after you had made the changes).

Oh I love your notes and the timing. That's brilliant.

I'm loving the detail. If you stop after every 10 minutes though we will never see Christmas though.

Wow! I can't remember the last time I used my heat-map but already I can see that i will be doing so more often because straight away it shows that your MR is getting far enough forward at IF. Is it showing a lack of width though and are the middle 3 getting in eachothers way?

I have just realised that I was looking at the Concord heat-map and not yours. Much prefer theirs, (width), even though it has it's own issues in the middle. You were bang on about the high line. Good spot. (Another reason to look at the heat map).

Do you mind if I ask.... are you just using the heat-maps and other analysis for the benefit of this thread, or is that how you actually analyse games? I just use the match and basic stats, (not that I am right and you are wrong of course).

This really is a lesson in countering to death isn't it.

I would be interested to see what your Treq looks like. (I just don't really get Treq's).

What are the 3 white dots in pic 2 in post #11? (I've never seen that before so it shows how little I use it). Are they your subs and you have gone 2 up front and pushed the ML up to AML? I don't see any comment about that. :confused:

Would like to have seen the tactic after you made the change if possible in future. I can't really know exactly how you are playing because I can't see who has gone off.

[Letissier1980]

Cheers RT, yes a 2-0 win but I wasn't satisfied with the second half performance. Any thoughts on why I didn't have that many chances on goal. Do you think I would forfeit the balance if I added the RWB to an attack duty?

Cheers jyuan83 something I will bear in mind for my next game.

Hi jimbo - thanks for your input buddy - you've punished me with the questions I'll answer them for you:

Sorry the LDC is passing shorter as well. My aim is for them to play it to the Anchor man, who in turn will play it through to midfield where the more creative and skilled players are. I hope the DC's will only pump it long if the direct counter is definitely "on".

I find the play on the left quite good. I interpret the cross and shoot less to change the players to sometimes rather than rarely. I believe this from the old days where it was often, sometimes or rarely. A WM on support instructions are often for crossing and shooting. I am in two minds about my RWB. I still think he could be creating space for my RWM by occupying the opposing LB if I put him to an attack duty. Advice if possible please.

I'm open minded about my striker duty. I just felt this was one of the roles I could use but I struggle to be able to compare how the other roles do up front. I know by the wording of the roles but struggle to see it on the pitch. One of my problems

Yes, I do think I could be a bit more potent up front, just gotta work it out.

I did play my last game with the two guys in the AM slots but for this game I wanted to make myself more stable defensively with the wide guys helping my full backs out a bit more.

I'm trying to put as much info for people to see as I can. It means that people can make educated decisions with all the evidence and see how my changes affected my game for better or for worse. Normally, would it look at all this? I think the answer is no. I think we are all guilty at times of not watching the games on full and just wanting to win every game with putting no effort in to the end result!!!

The white dots are the subs my friend.

Cheers

Darren

[jpcote09]

Hey Darren,

This is a great thread. You have put a lot of attention on creating your base tactic, and especially on analyzing that game carefully. Must have been dreadfully long to post all that stuff on here! Cheers to that. As promised, here are my first thoughts on your situation.

First, I gotta say, yeah, watching and analyzing games to understand what is right/wrong can be a real pain-in-the-arse. Some Instructions, as well thought as they might be, just don't seem to work sometimes and it can be very frustrating at first. On the other hand, I believe one of the keys to making successful changes to a tactic, be it during or between matches, is to know exactly what 'tactical change X' will do, and what it won't do. For that, you need a lot of experience, some trial and error, and to some extent, the willingness to approach your game analysis from an as objective a point of view as possible. I have never created a tactic that would work exactly as I had planned in the first few games. And every time, I had to make some painful compromises to achieve certain things.

From what I have read and observed in this thread, you seem to have the patience and objectivity required to get to great results, plus you have a strong understanding of the TC and your base tactic would be a pretty good start to almost any football match IMO. Okay, now here are a couple of things that jumped to my mind reading your comments :

1) if you feel your right back should be getting forward more, give him an attack duty. It won't break your balance. Of course you might get countered on a little bit more easily on that side, but it's a risk worth taking considering you have enough cover in behind IMO (defensive triangle plus cm(s) who can give defensive support)

2)actually, it seems you would need everybody to get forward more, wouldn't you? Your CM(a) and WM(a) not getting involved at the top, your apparent lack of width, and your general feeling that you are somewhat sterile offensively suggest to me that you are too cautious. Raise that Mentality! (Note that the PI 'Get Further Forward' will raise a player's individual mentality, but may not raise it enough to get him to make more runs. I suspect you could remove that PI for your CM and MR and it would not make a huge difference. However, I am sure going to Std or even Control could make them come to life). Also, raising the Mentality will augment tempo, and that should help with guys not getting the ball (and themselves!!) up quickly enough.

3) the width of central midfielders is a little flawed in FM, IMHO. When you play a central pairing, they always seem so narrow and their individual positioning appears to be so reliant on each other's... This is emphasized even more when playing a DM or AM in a triangle. The only way I found to 'hide' this (since it seems we can't counter it completely) is to play a central trio . I mean, your 3 midfielders in a line instead of a triangle. OTOH, a CM(D) would probably be a little less reliable defensively than an Anchor Man. So again, you have to make choices.

4) speaking of the anchor man... I would suggest changing him to a DM or BWM in games when opponents cut inside a lot. You will thus have someone ready to close them down instead of sitting in the hole no matter what happens. YMMV.

5) In your setup, your MR is forced to be a shuttler more than a runner. Look at all the guys who pass short and not risky around him. Who will they try to find with those short passes? You guessed it. You have your CM(s) who doesn't have passing instructions but he doesn't have a very creative role and will thus usually prefer short passes too (as you saw in the analysis tab, and when you asked yourself why he wasn't getting the ball forward quickly enough).

6) Quick word on the Treq. Not a bad idea IMO, but in a 4141 you might lack physicality up top. The problem with a Treq is he's a playmaker - which is not a problem in itself, but here he will have to wait for help for some time due to your defense-attack transition shape. A false nine would have the same kind of problem, though he would arguably get the ball deeper and be able to dribble his way around while waiting for help. This is a matter of preference but IMO a 4141 screams for a deep lying forward or complete forward (s). You can change their duties to attack when you need to push opposition defenders back. A target man could do the trick too but make sure he's awesome in the air. Now, why not the Treq with 'Hold up Ball', for example? Well, it can certainly work in some scenarios but the biggest issue to me with a Treq who is isolated that much is, he has too much creative freedom. He might not follow his holdup instructions ever, and on top of that he roams for space, possibly leaving you with no reference higher up the field.

Hope this was good food for thought, I might have forgotten some, please feel free to ask specific or general questions if you wish

[Letissier1980]

Thanks for your input JP. I did change my RWM to stop cutting inside, the reason for this was something that pelejunior had said about being a good crosser so I wanted him to create the space out wide.

Let me reply to your thoughts

1) Yes, I agree

2) You have just said what RT has also said and will definitely be changing to standard now. Hopefully it will show up on the heat maps as well. I have been looking at them and not really liking what they show. The deepness of the team and lack of 'red' in the opposing half. And that's the point - that's counter attacking football which dosent suit what I really want, even though that is what I have chosen at first. I believe I am finding out more of how I want to play as a manager rather than just what I believe is the best way to play the game.

3 & 4) yes, another option for me to choose. I believe I have been to rigid to change roles / duties / positions in the game and rather stagnated after getting the basics right. I have always liked a half back and the movement of the complete wing back is awesome. I would love to adapt this into my team. I will certainly look at a BWM against the cutters inners

5) I have experimented with a AP S so maybe that could open the passing range. I've tried with a DLP and it turns it more into a 4-2-3-1 which isn't something I want.

6) yes, I've changed him to a CF S with moves into channels.

Well thank you for that and if anyone would like I can update this. At the end of the first season a few people left and I had to rebuild and got promoted. Now I'm in the Skrill prem predicted to come 23rd so as long as I avoid relegation I will be happy. I am 250k in debt so I am using youth players with my first teamers so I can try and make a profit this year. I have a core attribute pack that I use for every player I sign. They are Composure, decisions, teamwork and workrate. I believe they will ensure that they are team players who will follow my tactics and make the best decisions under pressure at any time. Of course sometimes I will get a player with lower on these by a couple of numbers if they are better players overall.

Once again, thank you for your time on a Sunday and there are loads more I would like to say but can't think of them, anyway my son has a birthday party to go to now so I'm off!!!!!!

Many thanks

Darren

[llama3]

An excellent thread btw, it's taken me ages to get round to it, but an excellent article. Good decision making and a solid system. Well done.

[Jad123]

Contributions from the others seem to address everything I thought when I read through. Will be following your future updates - good idea!

[Letissier1980]

Hi jad123, yes the advice and discussion has been great, I believe even wwfan commented a while back about the outstanding standard of advice meaning he dosent have to get involved as much, so a big thank you to everyone involved.

Anyway, it's October in my third season and I am predicted to come 23rd in the skrill prem. My team is low average stats wise for the league and I am mid table at present so I am happy with how things are going, especially as I am using a few 16 year olds from my youth intake to save the wages.

I have changed from counter to standard / balanced to try and get the attacking roles higher up the pitch, also I believe my team did not require the right attributes of acceleration and pace to counter. Also I am unsure if balanced is getting the best out of my roles but I will see about that.

What I wanted to talk about now is what do you guys do to see out a game or search for a goal? I believe that cleon tends to change mentality and wwfan tends to use shouts. I used to go more attacking and then to overload when chasing a game and defensive and contain whilst holding onto a lead. After reading a few threads quite a lot of people did this and failed just like me because by going defensive users were encouraging the opposition to come at them and vice versa whilst attacking late in a game to be countered. So that begs the question would it be right to do the opposite? For instance whilst the team are chasing a goal would it be wise to be more attacking so the team is further away from goal and there is more chance to take advantage of space? Also whilst we are trying to chase a goal to go defensive and try to draw the team out to create space?

Otherwise with shouts I believe when holding onto a lead some users drop deeper and retain possession but I just find that my team gets closed down deep and we concede.

So I will ask what triggers, in a match prompt 'in game' changes for you? Do you change mentality?, shouts?, passes completed stats in def, mid or att?, Action Zones? Shots on goal?

Cheers

Darren

[jpcote09]

For me, it depends. It really depends. I will sometimes use shouts, sometimes change mentality, sometimes just change a player duty to more defensive, sometimes a combination of those.

Maybe I'm a bit freakish but I watch all my matches in 'full match' mode, and this enables me to see how the opponent is playing against me. For example, if I'm leading and want to see out a match, first instinct would be to drop deeper than usual and pass shorter. There are 2 ways to do this : 1) use the shouts, 2)drop the mentality...

However, if I am about to do that but realize that the other team is pressing very high and overwhelming my defence, I reckon it might not be the best idea to try and keep possession in my own half. So I might use 'more direct passing, pass into space, clear ball to flanks' something like that. I never use the same instructions and it always depends on the game situation.

When chasing, I never do the same changes either. In the last game I played, I did something I had never done before. The opponent were playing a narrow 4-1-2-1-2 and played really defensively throughout the game. Usually this is no big problem since forcing us wide plays right into the hands of my crossing game (in this save I play a 4-1-2-2(wide)-1). However, my lads weren't good and we completed 0% of our crosses in 55 minutes. I first thought, "Well, maybe I could try to play more defensively myself and try to draw them out" Switched from Control to Counter and kept the same shouts (higher tempo, run at defence). Against most defensive tactics, it usually works, or at least creates something, But this time, they were content to just keep the ball and sit back. They were playing extremely well. So I had to change things up, and the new idea was to let them counter me so I could counter back. Went to a 4-2-4 (4-2-2-2) with IFs and CWB's, 'Attacking', with Shorter Passing, Retain Possession, Work Ball Into Box (later added 'Hit Early Crosses). This left us really exposed at the back, the opponents recognized this and (with the game coming to its final minutes) felt they might get more than just a point. After having 2 shots (0 on target) in the first 75 minutes, I had 7 in the last 15 minutes, including 2 CCC's and 2 HC's. This was partly due to the fact that we were more aggressive and overloading the middle instead of diligently allowing them to force us wide, but also because they didn't have the quality to pull off good counter attacks, and when they tried to, it was their turn to be exposed at the back. Got my 2 CCC's from counter-counterattacking. In the end we didn't win (0-0), but to my eyes the changes still proved successful (considering my players were not performing well, and the opponents clearly were having a great game).

I don't necessarily think you HAVE TO watch full matches, but maybe switch it on when you feel like the game is on the line. It should help you see how the other team plays, and how it interacts with how your players are playing at the same time.