Can't win | Help me with my 4-1-2-1-2

[A1984]

Been playing FM14 for weeks and never won a game other than friendlys, played with Liverpool started about 4 new games I am going very wrong somewhere but cant work it out, started a new game last week been playing 4-3-1-2 (three central mids) as the backroom advice suggested it was a good formation for the players in the squad but still losing all the time. Playing blanced mentality, and tried control and attacking but still getting nowhere. I just don't get it all what am I doing so wrong. Been using this line up but getting nowhere, usually set the following intructions, work ball into box, direct passing, get stuck in. Let my assistant set up training and opp instructions I just want to know why I can win a single game before the bloody thing ends up in the bin.

[RTHerringbone]

If you can post details of what Roles, Duties, Mentality, Fluidity, Team Instructions and Player Instructions you have used, we'll be able to help.

You mention a few of the above things, but the Roles and Duties are especially critical to know.

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/327822-Asking-For-Help-PLEASE-READ-THIS

[A1984]

Ok screenshot of my usual team and tatics, i know some of the players are injured or on international just set this up with my usual first 11 and tatics to let people see what I normally use, . I never set any indivudual player instructions.

[olivermain83]

To help you in the future it's ALT+F9 to take a screenshot which can then be found in documents>Sportsinteractive>FM14>screenshots.

Firstly don't use auto duties (what your FB's and CM are on). They set the duty to what your mentality is which might not be what you want.

I'm not 100% sure but it looks as though you've loaded one of the default formations and left it as it is. This isn't the best idea as the defaults are a bit rubbish.

I'd actually advise you to start by reading the 12 steps guide at the top of the forum by wwfan. It explains very well the basics of tactic creation.

[RTHerringbone]

OK. Well, Automatic Duties are set by the Mentality. With your Mentality on Control this means the full backs and Lucas are on Support.

As a result, there's no great movement from defence to midfield, and just Allen assertively connecting the MC line to the forwards. That's a fundamental thing to consider.

Secondly, Hassle Opponents is regarded as an extreme instruction. It gets all your players to Close Down More. This is great to achieve high pressing, but has the typical risk / reward downside of meaning that players will leave their position to press - consequently losing shape.

Final point - how do you see yourself scoring goals? At the moment, it looks like you probably end up losing the ball in a congested midfield where nobody is really moving. You don't have a playmaker, but even if you did, he'd see no running off the ball (barring Allen) to target with through balls. I think you'd benefit a lot from reading this thread:

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/375632-Pairs-amp-Combinations-The-Complete-Series-*UPDATED*

[bababooey]

OP, have a look through some of the stickied posts on this forum. Also, check through my profile for my started threads, I think they will help you! Don't give up!

[Guest]

One other point, you are approaching your first league game of the league season and your Tactical familiarity is really low. You need to setup the training, especially the pre-season training and get that up to maximum before you start your season.

[A1984]

Thanks everyone for all the advice and suggestions of what to read up on, not really had chance to look at it all this weekend due to work but day off tomorrow so going to

read all the suggested threads and try again

[A1984]

After reading a lot of threads on here I think a complete change of tatics is needed, going to try a 4-1-2-1-2 with the 2 CD set to defend the 2 Fb set attack, Lucas as a deep lieing playmaker passing the ball to the 2 cm, both of them set to go forward with the AM, and 2 forwards all set to attack. Will post a screenshot once I have set it up going to go for play out of defence, get ball forward and drop the hassle opponents instruction.

[Kenco]

There is some useful info in this thread for the formation you are going with

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/395496-Diamonds-are-a-man-s-best-friend

Good luck!

[A1984]

Well a change of tatics to 4-1-2-1-2 and a change of player roles has so far seen a big improvement, started a new game today again with Liverpool first match was a friendly against under 21's and was 1-1 due to under 21's getting a pen and to be fair was not the best of preformances, however second match friendly against Monaco I won 4-0 Suarez got 3 in first half he was on fire and the new tatics worked a treat, if I can keep this going come the season get past the first few games where saarez is suspended then let him lose I think I can take any team and hammer them.

I can now see where I was going wrong, being to defensive but not moving the ball as others have said only Allen on my old formation and tatics was heading forward with the ball and nobody was really going anywhere. New system made a massive change for example even RB set to attack and played Toure there he must have put about 8 attempts on goal but all to no avail even so I just need to tweek things now, so the full backs are crossing to the forwards rather than trying to bang the ball in from the sides. Cant belive I got a 4-0 win after so long just getting the odd 1-0 win in freindlys, forgot to get any screen shots of the new tatics but will do tomorrow when I'm playing again. Also totally changed the training so working on tactical and fitness now getting ready for the prem kicking off.

[RTHerringbone]

Glad to hear things are looking up. Stick with it

The excrement will hit the fan at some point. When it does, stand back, watch the match back and see why it did.

[A1984]

Started a new game with Liverpool at the weekend, went with a 4-1-2-1-2 formation but after winning a couple of pre season freindlys when it comes to the main season I just keep loseing every game. Also my training seems to be having the wrong effects, first couple of weeks pre season were fitness high level

since then been doing tatics high level but it is just causing my players to end up worn out and not really improving the tatical awareness.

My assistant manager keeps telling me "we are being overun in midfield" or "we are struggling to cope with the numbers in midfield" yet he also suggested this was the best formation for players in the squad. Problems seem to be getting lots of atempts on goal but the forwards just seem to tap them at the goal

rather than boot them, right back and left back keep trying to take shots at goal despite having instruction set to cross from deep, then it seems like the

second the other team get attacking my defence just run around like headless chickens and the other team end up scoring in the chaos. It does feel like I'm

getting somewhere as I'm getting the ball forward now and having atempts on goal with my old tatics was not getting the ball forward much at all but still got

someway to go. Has anyone got any ideas how to get this working and why the pre season work seems to have so little effect.

[wwfan]

Few questions.

1: Do you think direct passing and a narrow, compact midfield work well together? If so, why (or why not)?

2: Why are you passing out of defence then playing direct football? You'll be giving the opposition time to organise themselves then trying to ping it around? Surely that's not what you are after?

3: Is an offside trap viable when you have a five strata formation that is inherently stretched out deep? Won't it massively compress space?

[A1984]

1 and 2 I can sort of answer together - Direct passing and a narrow midfield the idea being that the GK distributes the ball out to the defence and the ball is then worked via the middle towards the AM and then onto the forwards, or the right back or left back get the ball and run up the sides cross it towards the forward line to get the ball forward.

3 The offisde trap I set as I was assuming the defenders would work with it without me having to set much more up for them, was hoping a team like

Liverpool the players would have some AI and be able to make it work, avoiding me having to set up more detailed defence instructions other than the right

and left backs to cross the ball from deep.

[wwfan]

1 and 2 I can sort of answer together - Direct passing and a narrow midfield the idea being that the GK distributes the ball out to the defence and the ball is then worked via the middle towards the AM and then onto the forwards, or the right back or left back get the ball and run up the sides cross it towards the forward line to get the ball forward.

Worked and direct don't interrelate in my book!!

3 The offisde trap I set as I was assuming the defenders would work with it without me having to set much more up for them, was hoping a team like

Liverpool the players would have some AI and be able to make it work, avoiding me having to set up more detailed defence instructions other than the right

and left backs to cross the ball from deep.

It will compress your own space. Why have an offside trap with so many strata. Doesn't make any sense to me. I'd be far more inclined to sit a little deeper to give the DM And AM some space to work in.

[A1984]

Thanks for the tips, so it looks like direct and played out of defence not the way forward, might try short passing then if sticking with 4-1-2-1-2. Will leave out the offside trap and see if that helps, just in case I'm being a bit dumb here by sit a little deeper are you talking about the back 4 here or just the 2 central defenders, unless I am missing something I would this mean the right and left back could not be set to attacking and it seems they would be being asked to do conflicting instructions If I try to play with all 4 defenders a bit deeper.

[wwfan]

Thanks for the tips, so it looks like direct and played out of defence not the way forward, might try short passing then if sticking with 4-1-2-1-2. Will leave out the offside trap and see if that helps, just in case I'm being a bit dumb here by sit a little deeper are you talking about the back 4 here or just the 2 central defenders, unless I am missing something I would this mean the right and left back could not be set to attacking and it seems they would be being asked to do conflicting instructions If I try to play with all 4 defenders a bit deeper.

You can use the drop deeper TI or give the two DCs Cover duties. Both will result in the defence sitting a little deeper. You can still have your FBs attacking the flanks.

[Kenco]

I agree with wwfan's points.

Also, when your assistant says you're being overrun in midfield just ignore it. He will say this anytime you play against a 5 man midfield but doesn't take anything else into account. I've been 4-0 up inside 20 minutes with 75% possession and he tells me "we are being seriously overrun in midfield".

[alinp]

If you want to get the ball forward quicker, you could try using a higher tempo.

Personally, with no other wide men, I'd be inclined to use Wing Backs (or even CWB's) instead of Full Backs + given you only have 2 specialists, you could be a little more fluid.

If you're not going to try and compress the space, I see no reason for using an Offside Trap, although this can work well if combined with other TI's to press.

And Finally.... do you really want Lucas as your deep creative player? Fine if you play Stevie G there, but otherwise I'd be inclined to use Lucas as a standard DM (or possibly HB if you go with the WB suggestion.)

[bababooey]

Something to consider..

The more aggressive you play (both in terms of mentality, and your desire to press more) the less room you're giving your technically skilled players to work with. Generally speaking teams that press very high up the pitch + play aggressive (think, Dortmund) rely on fast attacks with more general roles. They're not going to benefit from having a player like a trequartista higher up the pitch. Chances are the ball will go right by him..

So my feeling is that you want to see more attacking-minded football. I would recommend changing to a 4-1-2-2-1 formation. That way the AML/AMR can press the opposition fullbacks, and you'll have more space for your players to work in. Plus, a 4-1-2-2-1 just works REALLY well when pressing aggressively.

[Kenco]

Something to consider..

The more aggressive you play (both in terms of mentality, and your desire to press more) the less room you're giving your technically skilled players to work with. Generally speaking teams that press very high up the pitch + play aggressive (think, Dortmund) rely on fast attacks with more general roles. They're not going to benefit from having a player like a trequartista higher up the pitch. Chances are the ball will go right by him..

So my feeling is that you want to see more attacking-minded football. I would recommend changing to a 4-1-2-2-1 formation. That way the AML/AMR can press the opposition fullbacks, and you'll have more space for your players to work in. Plus, a 4-1-2-2-1 just works REALLY well when pressing aggressively.

Plenty of formations can work with an attacking, pressing game, including the diamond.

[Cleon]

Plenty of formations can work with an attacking, pressing game, including the diamond.

Yes and no. The diamond only works if the players do their jobs in the defensive phase. So having them close down or being too aggressive will bring inconsistent results as players tend to get caught out of position more and be in the wrong place. It only takes 1 player to be out of position in the narrow diamond and it all falls apart. It's less forgiving than the other shapes imo.

[Kenco]

Yes and no. The diamond only works if the players do their jobs in the defensive phase. So having them close down or being too aggressive will bring inconsistent results as players tend to get caught out of position more and be in the wrong place. It only takes 1 player to be out of position in the narrow diamond and it all falls apart. It's less forgiving than the other shapes imo.

In that case I must have the perfect setup.

[THOG]

With a 1-2 up front, the ball can get shifted out to the flanks easily and the fullback instantly exposed which is why AMLR tend to work better for a high press, but IRL, I've noticed the forward 1-2 in diamond-like systems tend to press more like a flat three in the opposition half. In that case, in theory, there shouldn't be too much difference between a 4-3-3 and 4-1-2-1-2 outside of the attacking transition... the forwards would still press as a line of three and you would still have a compact 1-2 needing to cover a lot of space in midfield, but at the moment, it doesn't pan out like that in FM (and with the current state of lateral movement, there are also huge differences in the other phases of play as well).

Personally, I think a DM+MCx2 combo in midfield needs to close down aggressively to prevent the fullbacks from being exposed. I don't think there's a lot of benefit to telling the midfield to hold shape if your basic shape leaves the channels completely exposed. But with the way the 4-1-2-1-2 presses high up, it makes the whole system require a lot of ugly (and unnecessary) trade-offs.

[A1984]

Started a new game recently, gone for 4-1-2-2-1 total change of tatics (thanks bababooey for the suggestion of this formation), did well in freindlys and first prem game was against Everton 3-0 win finally I have won a leauge game, not played any more matches yet but a decent start just a bit worried about the 47% possesion but a 3-0 win is the main thing. Screenshot of new tatics below just hope it keeps working out now, plan is for Strurrige to play as right winger once Suarez is back from his ban.

[sporadicsmiles]

First let me say I have enjoyed this thread. I have watched the OP go from a really poorly balanced tactic to iterations that progressively make more and more sense. If only more people were willing to learn from their mistakes!

I like the formation you have, although I do have a couple of questions or suggestions. Firstly, does your CF(A) get isolated and marked out of the game? This is something I have come across playing with a lone striker and nobody in the AMC strata. How is the connection between midfield and attack? With 3 attacking duties for your three forwards I would worry about their being isolated. Thirdly, how do you score goals? With two attacking wingers (in fact your flanks are symmetrical) and a CF(A) you are going to funnel the play out wide and rely on crosses, and this could leave you one-dimensional going forward. Related to this, my final point would be on your flanks; do you get caught on the break and attacking down the flanks? Everyone will push forward on both flanks, although with a DM(D) perhaps this is mitigated by having 3 solely defensive players (i.e. do you have a de facto back 3 when in possession?)

Keep up the good work though, and congratulations on the win against Everton, shows you are on the right track!

[Str0aK]

Personally, I think a DM+MCx2 combo in midfield needs to close down aggressively to prevent the fullbacks from being exposed. I don't think there's a lot of benefit to telling the midfield to hold shape if your basic shape leaves the channels completely exposed. But with the way the 4-1-2-1-2 presses high up, it makes the whole system require a lot of ugly (and unnecessary) trade-offs.

Would you try to achieve this by playing a higher mentality/line or by giving the midfield three PIs to close down more?

[THOG]

If you're not already playing a "Push Up" TI, you can give the two MCs "Close Down More" PIs so they'll be more likely to take advantage of the natural cover offered by the DMC. If you're playing an aggressive mentality or high line, they'll be fairly aggressive anyway. Alternately, you can just play a flat three across midfield so the midfield line just has more width.

[thomit]

That's my current Arsenal formation. A 4-1-3-2 that is pressing hard ("hassle"), with attacking wing backs and a HB in the DM position. Works very well, league winners in my first season, as well as making Giroud top striker in Europe with 34 league goals. Runaway league leaders at half point into second season.

SK/defend

WB/attack - CD/defend - CD/defend - WB/attack

HB

BBM - CM/attack - BBM

Trequartista - TM/Attack (Giroud), or Poacher (Welbeck)

Control (mostly), Attacking when needed. Fluid.

Shorter passing. Roaming. Higher tempo. Push higher. Hassle. Work ball.

Back 4 + HB told to tackle easy, as they tend to pick up too many yellows otherwise.