Football Manager - Do we need an overhaul?

[McGeady10]

The current version of Football Manager is was designed for a football world which is now 10 years old and various things in football have changed beyond description in that time to an extent that the code used at the moment IMO is not fit for purpose.

This is not a criticism of SI as the game was fantastic to replicate how football was 10 years ago but things have moved on hugely since then.

IMO the two main things that hold the game back are the reputation system and the players ability/current ability models.

I think there needs to be something more fluid in terms of who will sign for who and what a players ability should be.

An idea I'd have is that a player has a CA and PA for different levels of football. Example...

J Altidore has attributes that made him an absolute beast in a lesser league than the Premiership. His CA for a level of football like the Dutch league should be about 160 and his PA about 170... At a higher level like the EPL his CA should be 110 with a PA of 135.... Maybe the PA and CA could be calculated against particular traits required in a particular league?

For example players with good decision making, passing, first touch would shine in La Liga whilst in the Premiership if you were a weaker player you would toil unless you had good awawareness, movement and first touch so you weren't hunted down by the fast pace of the game?

Thoughts?

[cynet]

Tricky in truth because if you come across to negative you get flamed on here!

I am wondering what else they can do with regards to the cosmetic stuff as it seems after every release the only things that get slightly overhauled is indeed the cosmetic stuff.

The match engine has been the biggest issue in the game. It was dreadful in FM14 to start off with and it did get much better after the last patch but in truth it is still a fare way off being very good.

The press conferences are a major bore and is so repetitive that you feel like burying your head in the sand.

Team talk is another major hiccup to the game where it doesn't bode well with what your seeing on the pitch.

Player interaction needs more heart and soul put into it as that is very mundane indeed.

Training is another aspect that needs re-vamping as it is something that should be one of the important parts of building up to a match but even that seems to be rather dull. Maybe 5 a side and 3D training on free kicks and penalty takers would be a nice addition.

Overall for me the match engine is number one priority!

Training is second!

Be interesting to see how FM15 turns out and rather suspicious that this year SI will not be talking about it publicly until October.

Most years they start in late August all the way through to September but not this year it seems?

Still time will tell and like the past 2 years I wont be buying until the second patch comes out.

[wwfan]

the code used at the moment IMO is not fit for purpose.

This is not a criticism of SI

Yeah, not fit for purpose really doesn't sound like a criticism. Just some friendly advice, huh?

J Altidore has attributes that made him an absolute beast in a lesser league than the Premiership. His CA for a level of football like the Dutch league should be about 160 and his PA about 170... At a higher level like the EPL his CA should be 110 with a PA of 135.... Maybe the PA and CA could be calculated against particular traits required in a particular league?

Why not have it so that a player with a CA of 130 is a beast in the Championship but might not quite make it in the Premiership?

[SpartyOn]

J Altidore has attributes that made him an absolute beast in a lesser league than the Premiership. His CA for a level of football like the Dutch league should be about 160 and his PA about 170... At a higher level like the EPL his CA should be 110 with a PA of 135.... Maybe the PA and CA could be calculated against particular traits required in a particular league?

Which CA does he use for the U.S. national team? Which one does he use if he's playing for a Dutch team against an English team in the Europa League? How many different CA/PA combinations will he need in total?

Players already have to adapt to different leagues and playing styles in FM. Given the challenge of rating hundreds of thousands of players across hundreds of leagues in all parts of the world, SI's doing pretty well IMO.

[sporadicsmiles]

J Altidore has attributes that made him an absolute beast in a lesser league than the Premiership. His CA for a level of football like the Dutch league should be about 160 and his PA about 170... At a higher level like the EPL his CA should be 110 with a PA of 135.... Maybe the PA and CA could be calculated against particular traits required in a particular league?

...This is exactly what the current system does? If he is a better player than those he in the same league as him he will likely do very well, if he is weaker than most he probably won't. Your idea would add so many new layers of complexity - and hence new things that can go wrong in the code - which are completely not needed.

or example players with good decision making, passing, first touch would shine in La Liga whilst in the Premiership if you were a weaker player you would toil unless you had good awawareness, movement and first touch so you weren't hunted down by the fast pace of the game?

By any chance did you see the Schurlle goal last night for Chelsea? That assist by Fabregas was a thing of beauty, which would be completely at home in La Liga and was a combination of decision making, passing, first touch and awareness. Football is nowhere near as black and white as you are painting it to be.

[SpillBlood]

J Altidore has attributes that made him an absolute beast in a lesser league than the Premiership. His CA for a level of football like the Dutch league should be about 160 and his PA about 170... At a higher level like the EPL his CA should be 110 with a PA of 135.... Maybe the PA and CA could be calculated against particular traits required in a particular league?

Thoughts?

The current system does this. I've started a save as Lyon and in my first season for more depth I've loaned in John Flanagan, Michael Keane and Jesse Lingard. The level they're in Ligue 1 compared to Championship/Premiership is already there. In general they usually get loaned out to a Chamionship squad(As the bids were there when I went in for them myself) but they're a decent Ligue 1 player and Lingard is proving his worth in just the first few games.

[WeSingForWanderers]

The current system does this. I've started a save as Lyon and in my first season for more depth I've loaned in John Flanagan, Michael Keane and Jesse Lingard. The level they're in Ligue 1 compared to Championship/Premiership is already there. In general they usually get loaned out to a Chamionship squad(As the bids were there when I went in for them myself) but they're a decent Ligue 1 player and Lingard is proving his worth in just the first few games.

I know it's off the original topic, but I agree with Lingard, he's great a mid level teams. Loaned him for 2 season while at Swansea (Moyes wouldn't sell him) after Moyes got sacked the new manager (name escapes me) sold him to me for $2.5M. Most versatile midfielder I've got. Plays great on both wings and in the CM role. Helped me fluke the title last season!

[Wiitastic]

The current version of Football Manager is was designed for a football world which is now 10 years old and various things in football have changed beyond description in that time to an extent that the code used at the moment IMO is not fit for purpose.

This is not a criticism of SI as the game was fantastic to replicate how football was 10 years ago but things have moved on hugely since then.

IMO the two main things that hold the game back are the reputation system and the players ability/current ability models.

I think there needs to be something more fluid in terms of who will sign for who and what a players ability should be.

An idea I'd have is that a player has a CA and PA for different levels of football. Example...

J Altidore has attributes that made him an absolute beast in a lesser league than the Premiership. His CA for a level of football like the Dutch league should be about 160 and his PA about 170... At a higher level like the EPL his CA should be 110 with a PA of 135.... Maybe the PA and CA could be calculated against particular traits required in a particular league?

For example players with good decision making, passing, first touch would shine in La Liga whilst in the Premiership if you were a weaker player you would toil unless you had good awawareness, movement and first touch so you weren't hunted down by the fast pace of the game?

Thoughts?

So since the EPL is a bigger league than Spanish Premier League, Messi's CA and PA should be lower if he plays in the EPL?

Turn it up!

Horrible thought/idea.

Overhaul? which FM are you currently playing?

[Kriss]

A thread suggesting we need what we already have :confused:

[LilSaint]

Wow, this OP just reminds me why I don't usually set foot in GD. I'm guessing OP simply doesn't understand how current CA/PA works.

[isignedupfornorealreason]

I think Ackter's suggestion (Correct me if I misread it Ackter...) in another topic about having a general position rating was better. At the moment too many players have their 'one' or 'two' positions when in reality they can play anywhere with little need to train for a long time to adapt to different areas.

[Wonky]

J Altidore has attributes that made him an absolute beast in a lesser league than the Premiership. His CA for a level of football like the Dutch league should be about 160 and his PA about 170... At a higher level like the EPL his CA should be 110 with a PA of 135.... Maybe the PA and CA could be calculated against particular traits required in a particular league?

How would that actually improve the system? As far as I can see, it would give the same result as the current system, but would be much harder to implement and manage.

[Xinxin]

Not sure I like this suggestion. The CA/PA system as it is implemented today works very well, so why change a winning team? At the same time, there are other areas of the game which time and effort is far better invested when it comes to "overhauling" or "improving".

[Nik_Dut]

of course it need an overhaul.

Too long people have paid yearly for sugar coated "patches" it almost felt like FM was from EA

[Kenco]

The OP's suggestion is baffling.

[Cougar2010]

of course it need an overhaul.

Too long people have paid yearly for sugar coated "patches" it almost felt like FM was from EA

Its been overhauled several times since the coding was split off into different sections.

Really don't know what you expect to happen, football is football and the basics haven't changed IRL for well over 100 years.

[DarthCraigus]

The current version of Football Manager is was designed for a football world which is now 10 years old and various things in football have changed beyond description in that time to an extent that the code used at the moment IMO is not fit for purpose.

This is not a criticism of SI as the game was fantastic to replicate how football was 10 years ago but things have moved on hugely since then.

IMO the two main things that hold the game back are the reputation system and the players ability/current ability models.

I think there needs to be something more fluid in terms of who will sign for who and what a players ability should be.

An idea I'd have is that a player has a CA and PA for different levels of football. Example...

J Altidore has attributes that made him an absolute beast in a lesser league than the Premiership. His CA for a level of football like the Dutch league should be about 160 and his PA about 170... At a higher level like the EPL his CA should be 110 with a PA of 135.... Maybe the PA and CA could be calculated against particular traits required in a particular league?

For example players with good decision making, passing, first touch would shine in La Liga whilst in the Premiership if you were a weaker player you would toil unless you had good awawareness, movement and first touch so you weren't hunted down by the fast pace of the game?

Thoughts?

What has that got to do with the rest of your post about reputation and CA/PA?? :confused:

[BiggusD]

The game needs an overhaul when it comes to the extreme high pressing game and physicality of football as it is now.

[N^G]

the game needs an overhaul because its basically been the same data represented in slightly different ways for the past 10 years.

[Kenco]

the game needs an overhaul because its basically been the same data represented in slightly different ways for the past 10 years.

Why overhaul something that works?

[Kenco]

The game needs an overhaul when it comes to the extreme high pressing game and physicality of football as it is now.

I've developed a high pressing, physical tactical setup with very good results but it could do with being ramped up a bit.

[Kriss]

the game needs an overhaul because its basically been the same data represented in slightly different ways for the past 10 years.

The data CA and PA represent hasn't changed one iota. you're talking tosh tbh.

[Noel Gallagher]

I'm pretty sure if you transferred Altidore to a lesser league with his current CA/PA he would be a beast - nothing needs changing.

[N^G]

Why overhaul something that works?

Why bother re-releasing exactly the same game every year having not actually did very much to it? how about just releasing a database update for a tenner instead of pretending it's a new product.

The data CA and PA represent hasn't changed one iota. you're talking tosh tbh.

My comment was about the game in general, not specifically CA/PA display. Clearly my wording is far too obtuse for these parts. Actually, maybe the CA/PA system is part of what has turned this game into a bore-fest, and should be revisted, and perhaps you should take off the rose tinted glasses.

[Kenco]

Why bother re-releasing exactly the same game every year having not actually did very much to it? how about just releasing a database update for a tenner instead of pretending it's a new product.

To make lots of money from it?

I'm all for improving the game, but not for giving it an "overhaul" just for the sake of it.

Why not give us some actual, worthwhile changes you would make to the game?

[Cougar2010]

Why bother re-releasing exactly the same game every year having not actually did very much to it? how about just releasing a database update for a tenner instead of pretending it's a new product.

But thats not the case is it.

Besides the fact that a football manager game by definition is going to have similar options in it whoever makes it because of the type of game it is there have also been many changes over the last 10 years.

Most people understand that the ME is always "work in progress" as SI strive to make it as realistic as possible and it will never be perfect. The other areas of the game have been changed & revamped numerous times as well with extra options and depth tried. Take training for instance its had major changes at least three times over the years.

Lets not forget as well that no one twists anyones arm to buy the game every year, some do, some don't.

My comment was about the game in general, not specifically CA/PA display. Clearly my wording is far too obtuse for these parts. Actually, maybe the CA/PA system is part of what has turned this game into a bore-fest, and should be revisted, and perhaps you should take off the rose tinted glasses.

Why does the CA/PA make it a "bore-fest"?

Despite the pros & cons of it no-one has ever come up with an idea thats any better so we are back to the old adage "If it ain't broke don't fix it"

[Kriss]

My comment was about the game in general, not specifically CA/PA display.

But the OP was very specific and that's what I and most other people here are referring to.

If you think there are other areas needing change (can't disagree) then start a thread about them, don't hijack somebody elses, ta.

[FM1000]

The biggest problem is the PA system. Suppose if u scout a young player with great attributes great mentality so u naturally sign him for your Man Utd side. He goes on to have a great season u win some trophies etc. but then the next season you notice even though he is young he is working hard in training he cant improve his overall play. It means he has reached his PA and will never under any circumstance improve more. Which would not happen IRL since football players dont have a fixed potential attribute. The PA should be dynamic couse as we can see anything can happen in real life then why not in the game. After all the moment you press continue on your first day of your new carrier save the game should be a simulation and not trying to predict IRL events using fixed numbers and such.

And for those claiming that you shouldn't see the PA of a player, yes but the game works on that system that can be viewed by any AI staff including our own coaches but u cannot. How is that realistic? Like your coaches know a player potential cus they see him in training would be the logical explanation. But then again aren't u the manager who can also see them in training? The AI clubs sign youngsters solely on their PA number not their attributes or performances. Then why should i not see the PA of a player?

[Cougar2010]

The biggest problem is the PA system. Suppose if u scout a young player with great attributes great mentality so u naturally sign him for your Man Utd side. He goes on to have a great season u win some trophies etc. but then the next season you notice even though he is young he is working hard in training he cant improve his overall play. It means he has reached his PA and will never under any circumstance improve more. Which would not happen IRL since football players dont have a fixed potential attribute. The PA should be dynamic couse as we can see anything can happen in real life then why not in the game. After all the moment you press continue on your first day of your new carrier save the game should be a simulation and not trying to predict IRL events.

Players do have a fixed potential IRL though and there are literally thousands of examples of young players who fail to make it at top clubs IRL every season.

One thing I would be happy with though is random potential for every real player in the database because as you say from the moment you press continue its about the save and not RL. Could even be a tickable option at the start of a save.

[FM1000]

Players do have a fixed potential IRL though and there are literally thousands of examples of young players who fail to make it at top clubs IRL every season.

One thing I would be happy with though is random potential for every real player in the database because as you say from the moment you press continue its about the save and not RL. Could even be a tickable option at the start of a save.

Yes but they fail because of their weak mentality or bad starting skill to begin with (which shows that scouting IRL is much more error prone then in FM if you have good scouts).

[CaptainPlanet]

The main issues with current CA/PA for me are footedness weighting, a fairly level rate of improvement that's not very realistic, and the AI buying high CA players for high money when they have a bad attribute spread and constantly underperform.

[FM1000]

The main issues with current CA/PA for me are footedness weighting, a fairly level rate of improvement that's not very realistic, and the AI buying high CA players for high money when they have a bad attribute spread and constantly underperform.

Yes this too. The weaker foot takes so much weighting its not realistic. This is tied to the defending AI where they close down a player to his weaker foot so perfectly that if he is two footed he can almost play like his not marked at all.

[N^G]

But the OP was very specific and that's what I and most other people here are referring to.

If you think there are other areas needing change (can't disagree) then start a thread about them, don't hijack somebody elses, ta.

The thread topic is "Football Manager - Do we need an overhaul?"

Answering along the lines of yes, we do need an overhaul, is therefore hardly off topic by any stretch of the imagination.

[BiggusD]

Could the CA/PA system ever be so sophisticated that we could do away with the fixed PA?

Is there any personality factor besides professionalism and ambition that is affecting the youngster's development from an early age in real life? Maybe the number of those could be expanded? What about "maturity" - an event-based attribute that could suddenly spike later than 23 years and allow the player to take a few extra steps in his game, for instance upon having children. I know about a few footballers that suddenly applied themselves after becoming fathers.

I think that when everything is considered, toning down the scouts' Perceived Potential Ability until they become practically useless may be a bad decision for the overall gameplay.

[Insert_Goal_Here]

To add my two bob,

yes, yes it does.

[wwfan]

I don't get and have never got the argument about PA needing to be fluid. PA = talent. You can reach the peak of your talent early and slowly fade away (as, arguably, players like Michael Owen, Robbie Fowler and Des Walker did). You can be a late developer (like Ian Wright, Rickie Lambert and, to an extent, Teddy Sheringham). You can improve gradually until you reach a peak in your late twenties (the more common process) or you can fail to apply yourself and never fulfil your potential (also very common).

The only thing that needs to be fluid is the development curve, not PA.

[Dave C]

I don't get and have never got the argument about PA needing to be fluid. PA = talent. You can reach the peak of your talent early and slowly fade away (as, arguably, players like Michael Owen, Robbie Fowler and Des Walker did). You can be a late developer (like Ian Wright, Rickie Lambert and, to an extent, Teddy Sheringham). You can improve gradually until you reach a peak in your late twenties (the more common process) or you can fail to apply yourself and never fulfil your potential (also very common).

The only thing that needs to be fluid is the development curve, not PA.

As has been the case for the decade plus that people have been raising this topic, this is the correct answer.

[aderow]

I don't get and have never got the argument about PA needing to be fluid. PA = talent. You can reach the peak of your talent early and slowly fade away (as, arguably, players like Michael Owen, Robbie Fowler and Des Walker did). You can be a late developer (like Ian Wright, Rickie Lambert and, to an extent, Teddy Sheringham). You can improve gradually until you reach a peak in your late twenties (the more common process) or you can fail to apply yourself and never fulfil your potential (also very common).

The only thing that needs to be fluid is the development curve, not PA.

I wish it were more fluid tbf

[tomtuck01]

"Football Manager - Do we need an overhaul?" - No.

/Thread

[aderow]

Yes but they fail because of their weak mentality or bad starting skill to begin with (which shows that scouting IRL is much more error prone then in FM if you have good scouts).

No what it shows is that it's too easy to get players to their full potential in FM. Scouts irl are paid to spot talent. And they do a good job. Fully cultivating said talent is another story. And I feel like in FM there are times when it's too linear; too steady. While there are players who develop steadily in real life, most players develop at different rate, at different ages, and at different stages in their careers.

Hence why I said it would be nice if development was more volatile.

[wwfan]

No what it shows is that it's too easy to get players to their full potential in FM. Scouts irl are paid to spot talent. And they do a good job. Fully cultivating said talent is another story. And I feel like in FM there are times when it's too linear; too steady. While there are players who develop steadily in real life, most players develop at different rate, at different ages, and at different stages in their careers.

Hence why I said it would be nice if development was more volatile.

One thing I'd love to see is determined and professional players take it upon themselves to develop their game to suit different roles as they get older, a la Gerrard and Lampard shifting to deeper, less dynamic midfielders, or Gullit becoming a sweeper. That can extend careers by years and would also highlight the point Alex is constantly making about CA and PA being less important than Role Ability. As a players physicality diminishes, his mental and technical ability could still develop to make him a great DLP, Enganche or Ball Playing Centre Back / Sweeper.

With a good training setup, you can make an averagely talented player into a great Poacher simply by maximising his ability in attributes important to being a Poacher. You might end up with a player having 1 in marking, tackling and teamwork but 20 in finishing, off the ball and acceleration. I'd like to see FM develop its training so this becomes a more obvious part of the game in building attribute spreads and tactical planning.

[aderow]

One thing I'd love to see is determined and professional players take it upon themselves to develop their game to suit different roles as they get older, a la Gerrard and Lampard shifting to deeper, less dynamic midfielders, or Gullit becoming a sweeper. That can extend careers by years and would also highlight the point Alex is constantly making about CA and PA being less important than Role Ability. As a players physicality diminishes, his mental and technical ability could still develop to make him a great DLP, Enganche or Ball Playing Centre Back / Sweeper.

With a good training setup, you can make an averagely talented player into a great Poacher simply by maximising his ability in attributes important to being a Poacher. You might end up with a player having 1 in marking, tackling and teamwork but 20 in finishing, off the ball and acceleration. I'd like to see FM develop its training so this becomes a more obvious part of the game in building attribute spreads and tactical planning.

That would be brilliant. I've always wanted the redistribution of attributes to be relatively dynamic. The way things are right now, once a player really hits his prime, that's who he's gonna be for the rest of his career.

I remember asking a long time ago if it'd be possible to have a player come through your academy and then train him to be solid in a vastly different position. Sort of the way Evra went from being an attacker to being a left back. That would be nice to see as well.

[shirajzl]

With a good training setup, you can make an averagely talented player into a great Poacher simply by maximising his ability in attributes important to being a Poacher. You might end up with a player having 1 in marking, tackling and teamwork but 20 in finishing, off the ball and acceleration. I'd like to see FM develop its training so this becomes a more obvious part of the game in building attribute spreads and tactical planning.

You could do that with the old slider training, now it's much more difficult.

[FM1000]

You could do that with the old slider training, now it's much more difficult.

Just like with tactics .

I really wish they would add different development cycles for different players, i remember playing CM 2004 or 2005 i was playing as Milan and i had this young CD who in 2 season became a god like player. He had good attributes to begin with but still he grew so much in 2 years. Just like Pogba from Juventus or even Messi who from very talented reached best in a generation in 3 years of constant playing. Or we can have the Luca Toni case who became world class in his very late 20s. Also i have noticed in this version if a player gets injured for more then 6 months there is no coming back. Hes improvement is so slow that clubs either relase them on free or just let them rot in the reserves.

[Xinxin]

Also i have noticed in this version if a player gets injured for more then 6 months there is no coming back. Hes improvement is so slow that clubs either relase them on free or just let them rot in the reserves.

Long time injuries cripple my players so much that I just try sell them or release them, because I know they will never come back and play nowhere near their pre-injury level. Sad, but thats how it is. What's also sad is that short time injuries lower the physical stats pretty much, even though it's just a two-three week injury!

[Nik_Dut]

Luca Toni was a good player who eventually knuckled down & put in the effort to reach the level that his natural talent suggested he could but to call him world class is an insult to the very small group of players who have ever deserved that tag.

Luca Toni surely a world class striker, although his peak comes late and not last very long. For sure, he is much better than most english premier overrated players.

[Ackter]

Football hipsters are so entertaining.