A(nother) 4231 Counter Help Thread

[Kuldaniss]

Hey everybody !

Lately I started an online game with a friend of mine in the BPL with the latest updates at that time. I took charge of Southampton. From the beginning I decided to try a 4-2-3-1 Counter tactic, thinking that it would suit the team because in most of the games the odds would be against me. After a close to disastrous first season, with finishing 14th, I was miraculously not sacked, but given 5 more games to obtain 11 points in the next season. Now, there was a lot of tweaking and trying out tactics and eventually I stopped to something like this

I think first I should try to explain what I was thinking when choosing the roles, TIs and so on and what I was expecting.

After reading a bunch of threads, talking to people and so on, I came to the conclusion that before making a tactic I should think about the defending, the attacking and how I want my team to play in general . So I started from scratch. First thing, I chose the Counter Mentality. Not having a lot of experience and knowledge in this year's game, I went for the obvious option in making a counter attacking tactic. Also the description says that with this mentality, the team aims to keep man behind the ball when defending but provide quick support to the attacking players when the ball gets further up the pitch, and this is exactly what I want.

Next, I went to Fluidity. This is definitely my problem creator this year, because I never fully understand how one Fluidity affects my team. After reading the descriptions on each one, I decided on Fluid because that way the team would be split in two blocks, the defending and attacking block, however both help in the transition phase. So in my head, this would make the defensive block of my team drop deeper for example when defending, the attacking blocking also dropping deeper but the team would still be split in two, so I would have players to counter with when getting the ball back. I repeat, this is how I pictured it and what I thought when I chose this fluidity. I noticed that the players would be allowed more creative freedom and that would be problematic.

Onto player roles : I went with a defensive 4 of a FB(S) CD(D) CD(D) FB(S) because I wanted to have a flat 4 to defend better. After reading a lot of threads today, I realized that doing that was a mistake, but it worked ok.

The 2 CMs are BWM(D) and DLP(S). The reasoning behind these choices are : I pictured that I needed someone to win the ball when defending and lay off simple passes, to the DLP preferably. Then, the DLP would take the ball and pass it further to either the flanks, or the AP. At least, that's how I imagined it.

Next we have a W(S) AP(A) IF(A). Went for a Winger on the left mainly because I have good left wingers in my team, also to give some width in attacking. I picked the AP(A) because I figured he would sometimes get the ball from the DLP and carry on with creating chances for my team. IF(A) on the right to offer flexibility in attack and having players suited for that role.

AF(A) because it suited my strikers, also he would help at times with creating chances but also be upfront when needed.

Here is how I imagined the team playing and why I chose those TIs:

Drop Deeper - I want the team to lay back, win the ball back in my own half and then counter.

Direct Passing - I realize that I wouldn't have a lot of players up the pitch when countering so some direct balls are needed, also I don't want my team to pass around, I want them to go for the quick counter.

Higher Tempo - I wanted my counters to be quick and deadly, I don't want the team wasting time when there is a clear chance to counter.

Run at defense - Realizing that at times I would be countering with maybe just 2-3 players, I thought that using this would make them run with the ball and not stop and try to look for a risky pass.

So after creating this tactic, somehow the team played ok. It wasn't exactly the style that I wanted and pictured, but I had results coming and I think I feel into that trap. Here are the team results so far :

As you can see, I started perfectly and got the 11 points in 5 games. Now, you can also notice that I was scored against in every game. Watching the games, all the teams had chances against me, I just took mine better. I consider myself lucky to get those results, because I didn't really get them because the team was playing really good and the way I wanted them too, I just managed to make a tactic that worked in a way, but not the exact way I wanted. In most of the games, I was pressing way too much, leaving a lot of spaces behind me even though I used drop deeper. At times when I was attacking I was way too hasty and ruining good chances. After the Fulham game, where I should have won as well, but in the same manner as before, I decided that I needed to make my tactic work the way I wanted it to. I experimented a little, got those results against teams that were way better than me, somehow I think that if I stuck with the original one I would have gotten better results, but that was no the point anymore. Remember, this is an online game, so eventually the whole point is to get results, but I realized I wouldn't be able to with that tactic and eventually it would all fall down. So I came here for your help !

Luckily, I have the same game so I can try things out and not save afterwards, and this is what I have in mind. I don't want to take any decisions solely by myself right now, although I realized that the Higher Tempo TI wasn't helping, also More Direct would make the team try a lot of direct passes and I didn't want that either, I just wanted the occasional ones. I also need to realize what I want in my midfield, the BWM(D) doesn't help with the defensive shape, but I noticed he won some important balls back and set up some good counters. Maybe the fluidity isn't the right one, maybe my roles aren't exactly the best ( a CF(S) or CF(A) might offer more in the build up play), maybe I should move my wingers back to the Midfielder Strata ?

I'm looking for any kind of help in making this happen, I've had another thread where I asked for help in a different tactic and the support was incredible, that's mainly the reason I decided to create another one. Thanks !

[Corner]

Any MODs here,

Maybe it's time we had a thread specifically for 4-2-3-1, something like furiousk's 4-3-3 WoW thread?

[Kuldaniss]

Would totally agree. I only created this thread because I didn't want to post my problems in some other guys thread, but if there would be one for 4231 help, I would definitely post there

[mpreston85]

Have a read of http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/396346-Quick-Counter-Style for general "quick counter" tips.

Edit to add some specifics to your tactic:

That formation is quite aggressive with lots of advanced players, its good for high pressing as it reduces the vulnerable space between DLine and Midfield but obviously at the risk of being countered behind.

4231 with two DM's is a better counter attacking shape IMO, you can play deeper due to cover infront of the DLine and can draw opponents midfield players further upfield giving your AM space to work in.

I would not use a BWM in a 4231, there are 4 players infront of him who should be picking up the opponents FBs, CDs and DM (if there is one) so who is the BWM closing down? And who will cover from him? A single DLP(s) isn't cover really. Two FB(s) do help cover but I think that also limits your teams "plan b" when a counter isn't available.

I prefer as a basis of my 2CM+AM midfield:

DLP(d) + CM(s) or B2B(s)

or

DLP(s) + CM(d)

I don't like two playmakers in counter attacking tactics, they lack the forward movement and thrust counter attacks need. I do like DLP as they should have the skill to play more direct balls rather than the team as a whole playing more direct. A counter mentality makes the defensive players more direct anyway with the forwards shorter passing.

Southampton has a good technical squad, Dribbling more and passing into space should trigger more counter attacks.

[Kuldaniss]

Thanks for the reply ! I'm experimenting with a DLP(S) + CM(D) right now. Also the AP has been turned into an AM(A) and the IF(A) has been turned to IF(S). Will get back with results.

What do you think about using More Direct and Higher Tempo in a Counter tactic? I mean, is there a need for them or does using Counter Strategy already do that in a way? Reading the thread you suggested, I would think that there's no need in using them

[Corner]

I don't really like the 4-2-3-1 Denmark but I find a DLP(D) + DLP(S) combo works really well. They hold their positions very well and seem more aware in a position sense.

[wwfan]

As others said, I don't think the 4-2-3-1 non-DM formation suits a counter-attacking strategy. Too many high players, not enough deep players. Where are you countering from?

[max787]

As others said, I don't think the 4-2-3-1 non-DM formation suits a counter-attacking strategy. Too many high players, not enough deep players. Where are you countering from?

Taking advantage of this thread, sorry OP!

I set up a 4-2-3-1 recently in a Leeds save which failed miserably, any chance you could tell me if there's anything very visibly wrong with my setup?

Balanced (2.5 specialist roles)

Counter

Work ball into box + drop deeper + run at defence

ST - False 9

AMC - Shadow striker

MR - Winger support

ML - Winger attack

DMCR - DLP defend

DMCL - DM support

RB - Full back attack

CBR - CD defend

CBL - CD defend

LB - Full back support

GK - Goalkeeper defend (distribute to defenders)

Hoping for goals from the strike partnership and occasionally from the winger attack (who did very well actually), looking for chances to be created by both wingers and the DM support.

Looking back, the tactic may not have worked due to a lack of pace in the side, the RB and the two wingers were the only guys who could be described as being fast. Another possible issue may have been the shadow striker, he drives forward immediately which leaves a fairly big gap in midfield since I have DMs and the F9 doesn't drop deep enough all of the time.

Thoughts?

[Pipson]

As others said, I don't think the 4-2-3-1 non-DM formation suits a counter-attacking strategy. Too many high players, not enough deep players. Where are you countering from?

I beg to differ. http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/396465-Pipson-s-Masterpiece-14.3.1?goto=newpost

[Kuldaniss]

After experimenting with a DLP(S) and CM(D) for a while, the tactic is definitely better than before. Also changed the FB(S) to FB(A) and WB(S) on the right since it offers more options in the build up play. The team is going ok, I mean I'm 4th at halfway when my season objective was to get top half.

As others said, I don't think the 4-2-3-1 non-DM formation suits a counter-attacking strategy. Too many high players, not enough deep players. Where are you countering from?

Most of my counters are from way deep, or sometimes if I'm lucky they start from the midfield. There were games when I noticed too much space between my midfield and defense and dropped the DLP(S) to the DM strata and changed CM(D) to a CM(S). I'm kinda scared to change things right now because it's working, but I feel that 2 DMs might work even better. But if I change, would you say a Regista helps better with countering than a DLP(S) ? Also, the only way I see the defensive midfielders is an Anchorman, the rest I think might close down too much ?

As for TIs, I dropped Higher Tempo and More Direct. Read a couple of threads, realized that the team will be at the highest tempo when starting a counter anyway, and the Counter mentality already sets them to play a more direct football. Added Drop Even Deeper because I thought that my defensive live was too high, even with Drop Deeper. Also added Lower Tempo, because when not countering I don't want to give a way the ball that easily. Using Play Wider because that's where my best players are and Stay on Feet to keep the defensive shape. I also add Pass Into Space/ Run at Defense, depending on the opposition tactics.

Taking advantage of this thread, sorry OP!

No worries! I would have nothing against this thread being turned into a 4231 Counter Help Thread.

Thanks for the replies!

[PhroX]

Regarding the discussion on which form of 4231 to use for a counter attacking strategy, how about the oft overlooked third option: the assymetric version. I'm actually quite a fan of this type of layout (in fact, I used a very similar tactic back in '10 for a while before it was in the game as a preset), although I'm yet to really give it a try in 14. I could see it working pretty well for this type of gameplan - the SC, AMR (or L depending which side you go) and AMC remain up the pitch top give you a outlet for a swift transition, while the MC, DMC and ML (or R) start off deeper to give the denesive solidity to win back the ball.

[Kuldaniss]

Regarding the discussion on which form of 4231 to use for a counter attacking strategy, how about the oft overlooked third option: the assymetric version. I'm actually quite a fan of this type of layout (in fact, I used a very similar tactic back in '10 for a while before it was in the game as a preset), although I'm yet to really give it a try in 14. I could see it working pretty well for this type of gameplan - the SC, AMR (or L depending which side you go) and AMC remain up the pitch top give you a outlet for a swift transition, while the MC, DMC and ML (or R) start off deeper to give the denesive solidity to win back the ball.

This might be a good idea for me and will definitely try out.

I tried playing with 2 DMs but things didnt go well, the opposition had way more chances against me and ended up losing to some worse teams. I used an A(D) and Regista, didnt tweak anything else upfront, maybe I should have done so? It just looked like the opponent had way more chances and the center midfield was just free for them. Maybe I should switch the AM(A) to something that drops deeper ?

[Kuldaniss]

I think using the Assymetric 4231 would be the best choice for me here. I've experimented with it for a bit and the defense was more solid than before, I just don't think Ive managed to get the roles right because the attack wasn't doing so good.

I was wondering, when going for Fluid and Counter , should Stick to Positions and More Disciplined be chosen to make the team retain its shape and play a direct football without too much creative football? I was thinking that at some point having more creative freedom would help when attacking but might also ruin some chances for me because players would be too creative and not stick to the original gameplan?

Also, Stay On Feet seems a good TI when using a counter tactic. Same thing goes with Stand Off Opponents, but i'm not sure which to use and why. I don't want to give too much time to the opposition. And when going for Counter , does the team instantly drop deeper and defend from there, thus not needing to add drop deeper to the TI?

Thanks