FM15 Needs greater emphasis on youth development more than anything else.

[mark b]

What needs to be introduced is more youth teams (11-14 for example) generated players at the start of the game in each team, as well as ability for

regional youth scouting and youth camps to support this. Develop players from a younger age to your club philosophy. Let's face it, clubs these days take players from a very young age into youth teams at their clubs and FM at present doesn't reflect a realistic youth situation at all.

- Regens (new young players) shouldn't enter at a specified time in the year. This is not the case in real life, so why in the game? In RL, all year round, local scouts are looking for young players who they feel could be a future first team player. Fifa manager although a poor game, at least had the right idea with youth development, incoorporating youth camps and youth teams for generated players as young as 10/11.

- Having more youth teams would allow for greater development for the future of your team. For instance: you know you have 'X' amount of players age 11-14 who are in your future plans. They should obviously start with low CA's but have more room for potential fluctuations, perhaps based upon character and hidden attributes, as well as how they're treated at the club, such as game time, mentoring and development goals e.t.c

- Youth camps would allow teams to gain an advantage in a region.country, particularly if they have good club prestige and/or not many other clubs have camps in the same area. This would allow greater diversity of younger and normal aged regens into teams throughout the game, making it more dynamic.

- Youth trials - selection of youths of school age in a tournament, u can scout/watch e.t.c to see if there may be any you would like to sign up. You could also have a simulated youth/school record for games/goals/av rating e.t.c to indicate early potential before an initial scouting assignment of the said youth(s)/youth tournament.

What do you guys think?

[endtime]

Don't think that's going to happen due to child protection laws.

Either way, I think it's a bit too much extra work. All the stuff you describe is what youth coaches/scouts do, not the first team manager.

[Lawlore]

It's a no from me- as with endtime, I'm not convinced that, with the exception of exceptional talents, a first-team manager would have much to do with a club's youth setup on a day-to-day basis.

That said, it's worth posting in the Wishlist thread if you feel passionately about it.

[Federico]

Please no. I want a game, and if I want a game that replicates the real life at 100% I'd stop playing and start a real career in a real team. I think there's already enough stuff to care about. Moreover, from my point of view, I hope priorities to be convoyed in other areas of the game, which need attention, because the game is far to be "perfect" at the moment.

[Dedinho]

I'm not sure if SI needs to go as deep as you described, but it would be very nice if one could have more impact in that department.

[borobadger]

Personally I would love this amount of depth into the youth system

[baronia]

Does Junior Coaching & Youth Recruitment not cover some of this?

[mark b]

Don't think that's going to happen due to child protection laws.

Either way, I think it's a bit too much extra work. All the stuff you describe is what youth coaches/scouts do, not the first team manager.

Surely as they would be 'generated' not real, it wouldn't be an issue?

Yes. i'm aware of that, but as the manager, surely you would like to have the soundest youth structure at the club you could - from

different age groups down because at the end of the day if your focus is to use youth from the academy then having this kind of structure

in place is very important - think Barcelona, Lisbon e.t.c

[Dedinho]

Does Junior Coaching & Youth Recruitment not cover some of this?

Of course it does, but not nearly enough. Maybe another youth level (u16 or something like that) would be nice, I'd like to have more saying in how the 12-15 year old players train, etc. etc.

And as for youth recruitment, I would like to have more impact on where to look for youth talent, what kind of talent to look for, maybe even being able to establish some youth camps or youth trials in a specific part of the world...

[mark b]

Please no. I want a game, and if I want a game that replicates the real life at 100% I'd stop playing and start a real career in a real team. I think there's already enough stuff to care about. Moreover, from my point of view, I hope priorities to be convoyed in other areas of the game, which need attention, because the game is far to be "perfect" at the moment.

Entitled to your own view, thanks.

[mark b]

Does Junior Coaching & Youth Recruitment not cover some of this?

I don't believe it does enough (Personally). JC and YR are supposed to affect CA/PA of regens also, however i've found this is very inconsistent save to save, even with clubs with the best facilities. I believe that if the whole youth system is developed to a greater scope i.e having players joining your club from younger ages then the benefit of having the facilities can be utilised more. For example; academies that have prestige and are well known for being proven to bring through a decent quantity of players over the years could appear more attractive to younger,more talented youths. With younger players you would have more scope to develop your future stars - sure some may work not some not, that's football. Some will say why do you need youth teams with players that young? If you like the challenge of developing youth and ultimately a team of home grown talent, why not? Imagine taking a young player say 12-13 from meager beginnings in terms of ability and watching them blossom into a player doing well, eventually reaching reserves and first team. I know for me the sense of achievement/satisfaction would be greater. I would just like the real life structure of youth at clubs to be mimicked in the game. We all know that clubs youth doesn't begin with 15/16 year olds, they develop talent at younger ages - giving them a greater chance to mould the player into the ways of the club. Some argue about not wanting more detail but even if the feature was implemented, you could assign staff to deal with this side for u and i'm sure not many would be complaining if a player who started off at their club from a younger age, ended up developing into a better player when they reached their teens. My main point is basically to try and replicate a more realistic approach to youth levels, as well as offering greater satisfaction for players who are passionate about their academies.

[mark b]

Of course it does, but not nearly enough. Maybe another youth level (u16 or something like that) would be nice, I'd like to have more saying in how the 12-15 year old players train, etc. etc.

And as for youth recruitment, I would like to have more impact on where to look for youth talent, what kind of talent to look for, maybe even being able to establish some youth camps or youth trials in a specific part of the world...

Exactly, the opportunity to determine youth coming into your squad at the minute is really lacking. Even if you have good facilities sometimes you don't get any decent players for a few years or so. Having younger teams at youth level would allow the player to think more about succession planning and to spot younger talent on a continuous basis to come into the club, rather than just once a year - which isn't realistic.

[Federico]

Also, how would this impact on the database? I figure there's no machine that would cope the huge amount of players increased by children after 2-3 seasons.

My thought, I'm not a programmer.

[mark b]

The current system is far more realistic than what is being suggested, if anything the level of micro-management that FM allows would need to be toned down, maybe even entirely removed to make it totally realistic.

Personally I would like to see the youth teams split into u19s/18s & u16s with the appropriate competitions although I'd still leave youth development in the hands of the youth management team.

How's it more realistic? Clubs youth teams don't stop at under 18's or under 16's (As the mentioned in the last bit of the post). Your suggestion of the U19,18,16 teams e.t.c is a fair one with the appropriate competitions.

Why would it mean the toning down of micro-management, surely it would mean the opposite?

[mark b]

Also, how would this impact on the database? I figure there's no machine that would cope the huge amount of players increased by children after 2-3 seasons.

My thought, I'm not a programmer.

I'm not saying their needs to be masses introduced continuously, just more of a natural flow. Perhaps a certain number per month/year which can be observed by viewing youth trials/tournaments or something like present - where u get a regen intake once a year, but instead a once a month/few months scout report similar to intake day, with only young players suggested for signing from the various age brackets.

[mark b]

It's more realistic in the sense that no senior team manager will have anything other than a passing interest in youth squads, they will be keenly interested in updates from their youth management team about any kids who are about to progress to the senior development squads but they will not have any day to day involvement in the younger age categories because that is not what they are employed to do.

In fact at many clubs the senior team manager will not have any involvement in who runs the youth category teams let alone micro-manage the development of players at that level.

It doesn't matter that the manager won't be involved in the day to day running of the youth squad, i'm not suggesting that. I'm suggesting an increase in the number of youth teams to a younger age and in turn, more focus on scouting for younger talent to develop at the club from a younger age. In terms of the senior team manager not having any involvement with who runs the youth category - I'm sure any manager who likes to place emphasis on bringing through players from the club ranks will be informed of promising younger players progress for the future. It's not like for example when Steven Gerrard was at Liverpool as a boy that the manager wasn't made aware of his talent and development as he progressed through the ranks. Sure, information would be passed to the next level up (i.e if he was playing under 16 football, then to the under 18 coach e.t.c) but there is no way that the first team manager would not be aware of promising players at their club, regardless of age. Just because they wouldn't be able to use them immediately obviouslythey would need to pass through the various ranks of youth teams but this does not ascertain to the manager definitively having no knowledge of the infrastructure and those within. I can tell you for a fact from personally knowing a manager through a friend at a 'top level' club that he is made aware of talent even at the lower levels of youth teams, as it's part of the club and the infrastructure and shows the level they're at in terms of spotting and bringning in and coaching young talents, as well as succession planning, something a long-term and devoted manager is interested in . Obviously as you stated, not all managers will care, but some do.

[mark b]

What do you think Graeme Souness or Roy Evans did when they undoubtedly started to get reports form the youth manager about a young Steven Gerrard & other players in his age group? I'd hazard a guess that it wasn't much expect ask for further progress reports on him & the other 2 dozen names that we no longer remember.

I see no reason why getting reports on a fictitious 12 year old lad who might never progress to the higher age groups is any better than a youth intake that comes through with 14/15 year old players, that is just my opinion though, if you do think it would improve the game then add it to the wishlish thread.

Ok, I respect your opinion. Do you not agree however, that in terms of youth intake there could be an improvement? Your idea of youth teams split into u19s/18s & u16s, I like, I mean an improvement in terms of intake. At present having an intake just once a year I feel is a little restrictive. Even though we don't agree on the age levels of the youth teams to the fullest extent, maybe you can agree that as intakes of young players is not just on a yearly basis, this could be amended? I suggest - a youth intake for the teams you suggested (under 16,18, 19) twice a year for instance, allowing greater variety at each level, particulary given that some will be discarded. This in theory could lead to around a total of 10-15 players each year being retained, spread across each of the youth levels and then potentially upgrading them the next year or adding if better talent comes in.

[Dedinho]

There would still only be the one level of youth intake to populate the u16 squad, the under 18 & 19 squads would be made up of graduates from the age group immediately below & player acquisitions.

I do feel that there is scope for additional youth level teams to narrow the age ranges, I've never liked the idea of having a youth team with players aged between 14 & 19 due to the vast difference in physical stature that would be represented by such a wide age range but I wouldn't like to see a drop in the age at which players are generated into the game, occasional promotions to the u16 level outside of the normal youth intake is an interesting idea & could dampen the day for youth intake trawlers so on a personal note that gets a from me.

Flesh out your idea & post it in the wishlist thread, it may or may not get picked up by one of the dev's.

That's pretty much all we're asking for, we are not asking for a complete overhaul, we just want a little bit more influence in that department. An extra youth team (u15 or u16), and more power and influence over the youth intake (international youth camps, etc.). Of course if a player sees no sense in this, he should simply pass this of to his head of youth development or director of football or whatever in the "staff responsibilities" column. You have to be aware of the fact that there is a chunk of FM players, who enjoy managing a Dinamo, Maribor, Ajax, Dortmund, more than managing a Real Madrid, or Manchester City or Bayern, because we love to produce high class talent, sell it for big money, spread that money between three new first team players with high PA, and another five youth players, with 4,5 PA. That kind of philosophy is the ultimate joy to create and establish for a lot of FM players.

[forameuss]

Why did you feel the need to repost the original post of this very topic?

[Gandy]

We had a training camp set up by Man City/Perth Glory when there was a global partnership thing happening between the two a few years back.

Not sure what came of it, and it hasn't happened again since. Pretty sure it was 2008. That'd be nice to set-up in-game.

[Gary_Parker]

There would still only be the one level of youth intake to populate the u16 squad, the under 18 & 19 squads would be made up of graduates from the age group immediately below & player acquisitions.

I do feel that there is scope for additional youth level teams to narrow the age ranges, I've never liked the idea of having a youth team with players aged between 14 & 19 due to the vast difference in physical stature that would be represented by such a wide age range but I wouldn't like to see a drop in the age at which players are generated into the game, occasional promotions to the u16 level outside of the normal youth intake is an interesting idea & could dampen the day for youth intake trawlers so on a personal note that gets a from me.

Flesh out your idea & post it in the wishlist thread, it may or may not get picked up by one of the dev's.

I like that last idea, anything that takes away from "intake day" would be good.

Alex, you're probably best positioned to answer this, but what regulates the youth players age during intake, I see a lot of 16-17 year olds in England vs 14-15 year olds in France etc. Is that a hard coded thing, or a DB value?

[Gary_Parker]

Youth age value which is set as part of the research data, iirc it can be adjusted in the advanced editor.

Ahh brilliant. Thanks. I was always curious why we rarely saw older players in France or younger in England etc.

[baboyray]

Developing youth is one of the best parts of the game so it would be good to see some fresh ideas implemented

[phnompenhandy]

You can always just use your imagination. I'm using a file created by a chap in Editor's Hideaway forum starting at Level 8 Scotland. The game generates fictitious players aged 17-18 for my opponents, and I used the ordinary FM pre-game editor to make a squad of 15-16 year olds. At this level we're all equally hopeless but I hope with good training, nurturing and tactics we can rise a few divisions before they all retire.

[mark b]

Why did you feel the need to repost the original post of this very topic?

wrong thread, meant to add to suggestions thread - posted on mobile on lunch break from work.

[Dave C]

The problem with a lot of the stuff people want (international youth camps etc) is that it's technically against FIFA regulations. Clubs exploit all sorts of loopholes, but in principle SI can't add it just because it seems fun. So as good as it sounds, it wouldn't actually be so realistic.

You also get into further issues the younger you go with regional variations in approaches across local associations. In England for example, the 'one intake a year' is actually reflective of reality. Not so in all countries. SI already have to botch it a little bit (rightly) to have a working system across the game. The more levels you add, that problem grows exponentially.

I'd go for having an active U16 side as opposed to the annual 'new batch of graduates', I think it would be good to have that tracking of potential scholars over a year. But anything more than that would be hideously unworkable in terms of the size of database you'd be running.

[phnompenhandy]

DAVE C???!!!!

FM forum legend - haven't seen you for years. Are you back for good???

[Dave C]

DAVE C???!!!!

FM forum legend - haven't seen you for years. Are you back for good???

Never went, I just pop in and out very quietly these days.

[suace]

The one thing i would like implemented in regards to youth, would be a philosophic approach. For example you may like your juniors to be selected acording to their level of technical ability, or maybe physicals are more important, or cirtain mental attributes.

I am sure there is a philosophy of sorts at junior level and an assesment criteria and youths should come through your system that proportionately exemplifies that.

For example, a youth won't make it to my first team if his technical ability is below what I would like (even defenders I have a set number lol), no matter how good he is in other areas. It would be nice if the junior setup could support (not overtly) my phylosophy, or if you are a journeyman, you would have to deal with different clubs philosophies.

[Äktsjon Männ]

The one thing i would like implemented in regards to youth, would be a philosophic approach. For example you may like your juniors to be selected acording to their level of technical ability, or maybe physicals are more important, or cirtain mental attributes.

I am sure there is a philosophy of sorts at junior level and an assesment criteria and youths should come through your system that proportionately exemplifies that.

For example, a youth won't make it to my first team if his technical ability is below what I would like (even defenders I have a set number lol), no matter how good he is in other areas. It would be nice if the junior setup could support (not overtly) my phylosophy, or if you are a journeyman, you would have to deal with different clubs philosophies.

This should indeed happen. If you read Cleon's thread on Ajax's youth system you'll see they have a very strict evaluation process when it comes to promoting youth and I'm sure similar setups exist in other big clubs. It's fine if the quality of players coming through is largely random. But the type of player should be less so. At the very least it could be adaptive to your tactical setup so that when you don't employ left wingers for example you wouldn't keep getting a lot of them through your youth system. So not full control but sort of a way of setting expectations on your U18/U21 player type. Those two age groups are tied closely enough to the first team setup for a manager to be allowed a say in things. Especially as the game allows you to take control of the teams.

[michelco]

I nice feature would be to be able to tell your youth coaches to use an overall philosophy. Like Barcelona focuses on technique and passing even at very young age. I know you can set indiviual focuses but I think a realistic option would be to tell your youth coaches to use an overall philosophy based on technique or physique or a mix between them. Then depending on the quality of your coaches they would apply this good or bad

[phnompenhandy]

Clubs already have philosophies - or tendencies. If you know which club you're going to be managing you can use the editor to highlight such preferences.

[suace]

Barcelona do that by bringing in the right coaches & it took decades to develop, taking time to find the right staff rather than those who are "on paper" the best should see positive results if you're at the club long enough.

I think it is a bit more than personel, they have a philosophy and a plan to go along with it. As you see in real life, an assistant coach will assist the manager in realising his philosophy, yet when they manage themselves they often do things very differently, well becuase they have their own ideas. Now youth coaching is a different kettle of fish, but like an assistant works within boundaries, (which can be influenced by the manager) to produce players that will fit into their system and philosophy. For example Wenger needs different players than say Klopp to excel in the way each manager wants their team to play. So it it is reasonable that the club would try to produce those players so they don't need to bring in players.

Remember this is junior level, which is totaly random at the moment it seems.

[suace]

Clubs already have philosophies - or tendencies. If you know which club you're going to be managing you can use the editor to highlight such preferences.

Though I do have doubts that it influences in anyway the youths intake, it is more another expectation in the end of year evaluation.

[suace]

This should indeed happen. If you read Cleon's thread on Ajax's youth system you'll see they have a very strict evaluation process when it comes to promoting youth and I'm sure similar setups exist in other big clubs. It's fine if the quality of players coming through is largely random. But the type of player should be less so. At the very least it could be adaptive to your tactical setup so that when you don't employ left wingers for example you wouldn't keep getting a lot of them through your youth system. So not full control but sort of a way of setting expectations on your U18/U21 player type. Those two age groups are tied closely enough to the first team setup for a manager to be allowed a say in things. Especially as the game allows you to take control of the teams.

Agree, it deosn't need to be overt, just an algorithm with preferences when the game randomly produce regens.

[mark b]

The one thing i would like implemented in regards to youth, would be a philosophic approach. For example you may like your juniors to be selected acording to their level of technical ability, or maybe physicals are more important, or cirtain mental attributes.

I am sure there is a philosophy of sorts at junior level and an assesment criteria and youths should come through your system that proportionately exemplifies that.

For example, a youth won't make it to my first team if his technical ability is below what I would like (even defenders I have a set number lol), no matter how good he is in other areas. It would be nice if the junior setup could support (not overtly) my phylosophy, or if you are a journeyman, you would have to deal with different clubs philosophies.

I like this idea a lot also. Post it in suggestions : )