Training - workload too high for Coaches

[davehanson]

Hi, after some advice regarding the workload for coaches in FM15.

I have:

2x Fitness coaches

2x Goalkeeping coaches

3x First team coaches

1x Assistant Manager

and me, handling the first team training. That is 1 coach for every training 'area' (ie 1 for shooting, 1 for attacking etc).

However, on the coaches workload at the bottom of the screen it states that their workload is Heavy on all of them apart from the 2 goalkeeping coaches whose workload is average. Players are complainig that they are not getting enough 'attention' in training.

Am I doing something wrong here? This is how I have always managed training.

I also have 4 specific under 21 coaches and 4 specific under 18 coaches.

[chadnw]

I am doing the same and have players concerned: 'Feels he is not getting enough attention during tactics training'

Not sure how to proceed other than hiring more coaches

[isignedupfornorealreason]

You need around 2 coaches per category to reduce the workload to 'average'.

[davehanson]

Even with 3 coaches in the defending catagory it is still telling me the coaches workload is heavy?!

Must be doing something wrong, I can't hire 4 or 5 coaches in each area.

[Spireheart]

I've been having similar issues, seems you sort one out and they find something else to complain about, probably just about trying to balance it out correctly

[isignedupfornorealreason]

Seems to be;

Fitness = 2 coaches = Average

Goalkeepers = 2 coaches = light / 1 coach = average

Tactics = 3 coaches = average

Ball control = 3 coaches = average

Defending = 4 coaches = average

Attacking = 4 coaches = average

Shooting = 4 coaches = average

Is that the same for everyone else? If this is the case, I can imagine the U21 staff will be getting a lot of use.

Using Manchester United as a top club template;

Staff permitted: 13

Head Physio = 1

Physio = 3 (4 total) - Recommended number of physio is taken from the manual (FM14, I'm not sure if the Head physio counts towards that cap, if so we can reduce this number to 2)

Coaches = 9 (13 total)

Split of coaches:

2 x Fitness coaches,

2 x Goalkeeping coaches,

1 x Tactics,

1 x Ball Control,

1 x Defending,

1 x Attacking,

1 x Shooting

Extra categories:

1 x Assistant Manager specialisation (14th coach, does not count to staff limit)

1 x U21 Manager Specialisation (15th coach, does not count to staff limit)

1 x U21 Assistant Specialisation (16th coach, does not count to staff limit) *not sure on this one*

1 x Manager (you) (17th coach, does not count to staff limit)

That means, in theory you have 2 coaches for 4 categories.

So;

U21 coaches allowed: (Limit; 4 - EXCLUDES U21 manager and assistant)

1 x Fitness coach (1) - does BOTH strength and aerobic to reduce the load to 'average'

3 x U21 Coach (4) - With whatever specialisation, either 'young, high talent' coaches, or 'generalist' coaches. These just 'shore' up the training to make it so the workload is average rather than heavy.

Obviously for smaller clubs, you build around the Manager and Assistant's strengths and have a lot more 'generalists' until you're at a stage where you can hire specialists.

Sounds about right?

[Abaddon879]

Sounds like this is a big change from previous editions, as I never struggled to keep workloads to Light.

[davehanson]

Good effort isignedup. The U21's Assistant manager does count towards the staff limit though - it wouldn't allow me to sign one as I already had 3 U21 coaches and the U21 manager.

But, yeah, the rest seem good. Sign specialist first team coaches to get your stars up in each area then supplement them with U21 coaches that teach across multiple training regimes.

[herne79]

This has been reported in the bugs forum.

SI have said training has changed to fix a "bug" from previous versions of the game where it was near impossible to get workloads off of "light".

They seem to have fixed that and then some .

Workarounds at the moment are 1) loan out a significant number of your reserve team (then why have reserves at all? ) or 2) employ a lot of coaches (doesn't help smaller clubs with limited staff numbers).

[tyro]

After the update it has become much easier. Usually 2 coaches per category are enough to go to average. There was one or two categories to the right (defense?) which needs 3 for me at the moment.

Definitely makes it worthwhile to have you as a track suit manager as well.

[swansongs]

The more players you have the more coaches need to be working in each area. Send half your U21s on loan and training workload will decrease. Buy more and it'll get heavier.

This is a great improvement over previous years, where you could just hire one coach for each area then never look at it again. now it's harder to get high star ratings straight away as coaches each need to cover a number of areas to manage a decent sized squad.

You're not supposed to hire 3/4 coaches to work on each area. You need to spread the workload.

[Cleon]

The more players you have the more coaches need to be working in each area. Send half your U21s on loan and training workload will decrease. Buy more and it'll get heavier.

This is a great improvement over previous years, where you could just hire one coach for each area then never look at it again. now it's harder to get high star ratings straight away as coaches each need to cover a number of areas to manage a decent sized squad.

You're not supposed to high 3/4 coaches to work on each area. You need to spread the workload.

Yups its a welcome change imo and means you have to think about who you hire now too.

[davehanson]

I don't think it is realistic, and disagree with both of you tbh.

You say either send out half of your U21's on loan. That isn't realism in anyway and isn't the way that clubs at any level deal with their under 21 players.

The only way that I can see to get decent training ratings is to do as isignedupherefornoreason suggested a few posts above, which is to hire as good a coach in that particular area as you can and then supplement them with U21 coaches. Which again to me is not realistic.

[herne79]

I don't think it is realistic, and disagree with both of you tbh.

You say either send out half of your U21's on loan. That isn't realism in anyway and isn't the way that clubs at any level deal with their under 21 players.

The only way that I can see to get decent training ratings is to do as isignedupherefornoreason suggested a few posts above, which is to hire as good a coach in that particular area as you can and then supplement them with U21 coaches. Which again to me is not realistic.

I agree there is a realism issue. If we start a game with actual players and staff in place to reflect the real life club, I don't see why we then need to hire more staff and/or reduce players to offset the "bug fix" that SI have implemented. Especially when the real life clubs seem perfectly able to cope.

OK, it wasn't realistic before either, but I do think there is some middle ground which could be found between these two extremes.

[swansongs]

You can already cope without hiring more staff or reducing playing staff. Assign each coach to cover more areas and presto! Workload decreases at a cost to training quality.

Now having a specialist coach who only trains one area is a luxury rather than the obvious way to do things at every level of club.

(Maybe the balance isn't quite right atm but it's a huge step in the right direction)

[davehanson]

Yeah, that's exactly the point. There is a balancing issue that needs looking at and sorting out.

[davehanson]

You can already cope without hiring more staff or reducing playing staff. Assign each coach to cover more areas and presto! Workload decreases at a cost to training quality.

Now having a specialist coach who only trains one area is a luxury rather than the obvious way to do things at every level of club.

(Maybe the balance isn't quite right atm but it's a huge step in the right direction)

It's not right though, surely you can see that?

Man Utd in real life would not assign U21 coaches to their first team to aid the first team coaches. And they would not suffer their training quality decreasing either. There is a huge balancing issue that needs to be sorted and in no way is it 'a huge step in the right direction'.

EDIT: And your 'workaround' of assigning each coach to cover more areas SHOULD not work either, and here is why:

If you work at 100% at one task you are working at 100%, correct?

If I give you 2 tasks to do and tell you to do each one at 50%, you are still doing the same workload as you would be by just doing one task.

There should be absolutely no benefit in terms of workloading to split the coaches over multiple assignments.

[swansongs]

Tactics training doesn't take place at the same time as Technique training. One coach handling each area has to deal with 50 players. Five coaches can oversee 10 each.

Players complain about the attention they receive, not how many hours the coach has to work.

[davehanson]

Players don't receive the attention they want because ​the coaches have too much to do.

[herne79]

I'm with Dave here.

I understand that Tactics training may not take place at the same time as Technique training (to carry on the example from above). And by assigning each coach to more than one area we decrease workload at the cost of training quality. So we split a 4 star coach to cover 2 areas, and so each area is therefore covered by effectively a 2 star coach.

And there's the nub of the issue - if only Tactics is being trained at the time, then Tactics is actually being trained by a 4 star coach not a 2 star coach, as the coach is not splitting their time between 2 training areas, just the one. They only become a 2 star coach if their 2 training areas are being trained at the same time as each other. If they aren't (as in the above scenario) then the coaches' time is being 100% dedicated to the single training area thereby leaving them as a 4 star coach.

Of course, the other issue being overlooked at the moment relates to smaller clubs who can't actually bring in many coaches - and who's lifeblood depends on effective youth development.

Anyway, as we've all agreed already, there's a balancing issue that needs addressing.

[isignedupfornorealreason]

Re: The U21 point, I thought that is exactly the point of U21 staff. They will take up multiple assignments because they're learning their craft from the specialist coaches IRL. So Nicky Butt at United will do three or four areas as he goes through his badges until such a time that the club promotes him to a full time coach in his own right.

That's one way of looking at it though. >_>

[danthemanwhocan]

I'm with Dave here.

I understand that Tactics training may not take place at the same time as Technique training (to carry on the example from above). And by assigning each coach to more than one area we decrease workload at the cost of training quality. So we split a 4 star coach to cover 2 areas, and so each area is therefore covered by effectively a 2 star coach.

And there's the nub of the issue - if only Tactics is being trained at the time, then Tactics is actually being trained by a 4 star coach not a 2 star coach, as the coach is not splitting their time between 2 training areas, just the one. They only become a 2 star coach if their 2 training areas are being trained at the same time as each other. If they aren't (as in the above scenario) then the coaches' time is being 100% dedicated to the single training area thereby leaving them as a 4 star coach.

Of course, the other issue being overlooked at the moment relates to smaller clubs who can't actually bring in many coaches - and who's lifeblood depends on effective youth development.

Anyway, as we've all agreed already, there's a balancing issue that needs addressing.

I can understand what yoir saying about if technique is being trained worked on at a different time than tactical training then they are getting a 4 star coach in that area.

However, they also; to put in real life terms have to design and impliment two sets of training sessions that they have to run. Therefore less quality as they are having to devote the same amount of time preparing i.e an hour to each practice session or they have 4 hours to plan their sessions yet have to plan two types of sessions witjin those four hours. If ya get what i mean.

I ideal is to have a specialist coach for tactics, he is the guy that runs the session, then the additional coaches impliment the training session.

Hope this makes sense cant put all my tjoughts down as i am at work, also cant check before i submit haha.

[isignedupfornorealreason]

I can understand what yoir saying about if technique is being trained worked on at a different time than tactical training then they are getting a 4 star coach in that area.

However, they also; to put in real life terms have to design and impliment two sets of training sessions that they have to run. Therefore less quality as they are having to devote the same amount of time preparing i.e an hour to each practice session or they have 4 hours to plan their sessions yet have to plan two types of sessions witjin those four hours. If ya get what i mean.

I ideal is to have a specialist coach for tactics, he is the guy that runs the session, then the additional coaches impliment the training session.

Hope this makes sense cant put all my tjoughts down as i am at work, also cant check before i submit haha.

But the don't... Not strictly anyway.

Assume I have to take part in two training sessions, Tactical and Defending.

I would probably be the 'head coach' for Tactical training, so I would design and plan the session and relay the info to any coaches assisting on the day and they would commit the drills and give advice as they'd be expected to do, but I'm the one he'll refer to if there's a difficult question he's not sure on.

When I then take part in the defending coaching, I use my knowledge there and the instructions from the bloke in charge of defending to share the workload. So they wouldn't have to have one bloke making two plans otherwise they're all going to be coming up with different stuff on the day surely?

[matt_forest]

I'm managing Forest and have a squad of 25 players then 18 players U-21 players broken up into the following positions below. The allocations for each squad are the same so I picture that both sides train together, whilst the U-18's are separate.

2 senior / 2 U-21's - Goalkeepers

8 senior / 5 U-21's - Defenders

4 senior / 3 U-21's - Defensive minded midfielders

7 senior / 5 U-21's - Attacking minded midfielders

4 senior / 3 U-21's - Forwards

After playing around with allocating each coach I settled on the following;

Because the quality and number of coaches I'm able to sign is limited, I was a little miffed at first about having to assign 3 of them to each of the 'general' training areas. But when you think 'tactics' and 'ball control' are areas you'd think every player in the squad receive training in then there is no way just one coach could handle that work load. What does seem a little strange though is how 'defending' requires 4 coaches (in whatever permutation I tried) in order to drop down to an average level - How would this be so? I'd assume it would mainly be the defensive minded members in the squad being trained in this area, so why would few players require more coaches? A similar number of players would have a focus on attacking but they require one less, whereas each fitness area would again apply every member of the squad yet only two members of staff are needed.

Easy solution - Hire a couple of cheap/ average coaches who will work across all areas. Their star ratings will be severely knocked down in each but that will be more than compensated for by you having a specialist concentrating on just that area alone. I'd like to think of this jack of all trades being the guy who just lays out the cones and brings along the big bag of balls

[Ben Delat]

This is really frustrating, just as I spend an age tuning my tactic and replicating Gladbach's real life style, I find this annoying change. Players complaining of not getting enough attention.

I'm Gladbach, a fair sized club but not giants - I have limited staff space, limited wage space, and my board wants me to develop youth players. It currently takes 4 coaches in shooting to get the load down to average for me, this is ridiculous. I imagine the team was just fine before I signed on, not to mention this reduces my coaches effectiveness so much. I agree the direction this change was attempting to make was probably the right one, but it seems too extreme.

I've now got to restart my season...Again....

Edit:

Also, the Tactical/Tracksuit Manager thing - To compensate for this, I'm going to have to actually set the slider so I have some attributes as a Tracksuit manager to cover for this.

I thought this system was so we could manage how we wanted to? I want to be a man manager, not a coach

[Ben Delat]

you don't need to start again,you can continue from this point ,make your coaches have more duties

Hired too many specialist coaches, without knowing this would happen.

And I'm a terrible perfectionist and min/maxer >_<

[Ben Delat]

But duuuuuuuuuuuude - I can't hold off playing til then

[Ben Delat]

Then start another save with another team Koln maybe

To hell with Koln with naughty bugger.

I could maybe stretch to Mainz, being a Shinji Okazi fan, but Koln, how dare you son, how dare you. Die Fohlen for lifes