philly_flyer10 Posted September 15, 2008 Share Posted September 15, 2008 Id change your post if I were you Busby, you may be banned from here even thought most of us understand why you did it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveRH Posted September 16, 2008 Share Posted September 16, 2008 [sins of a Solar Empire] has now sold over 500,000 copies with 200,000 of those in the first month (according to Wikipedia) and there certainly hasn't been any mass-pirating caused by their methods.... let's compare that to EA and Spore - this game has the most ridiculous and overly restrictive DRM that is in itself bordering on legal infringement. Yet it has now been downloaded illegally over 500,000 times which as of now makes it the most pirated game ever.I honestly wish other game publishers would start to notice the pattern in all this. I'd completely dispute your 'pattern'. a) Sins of a Solar Empire is widely available for illegal download. Personally I'd say that Sins sold 500k copies since release because it is apparently a very good game - very little to do with DRM. b) I doubt very much that your average downloader justifies downloading a game 'because they didn't like the DRM'. They download it because they can. I'd also say that Spore was the most anticipated game of the year (by a country mile) so it's no surprise that it is heavily downloaded - I would suggest that would have happened regardless of the DRM involved. Don't get me wrong... I'm not a fan of DRM as it exists at the moment, but at present something is better than nothing. SI/Sega have never announced more restrictive DRM than they use at the moment and - despite the occasional hissy fit when you're using DVD drive emulators - I don't think it's too bad at the moment. Personally speaking, I can't see a more reliable method at the moment than remote authorization via internet or telephone - but overall that could be a hugely expensive operation for Sega; I'd suspect it would cost more than it would gain and - still - it would only be a matter of time before it was cracked. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neji Posted September 16, 2008 Share Posted September 16, 2008 I'd completely dispute your 'pattern'.a) Sins of a Solar Empire is widely available for illegal download. Personally I'd say that Sins sold 500k copies since release because it is apparently a very good game - very little to do with DRM. b) I doubt very much that your average downloader justifies downloading a game 'because they didn't like the DRM'. They download it because they can. I'd also say that Spore was the most anticipated game of the year (by a country mile) so it's no surprise that it is heavily downloaded - I would suggest that would have happened regardless of the DRM involved. Don't get me wrong... I'm not a fan of DRM as it exists at the moment, but at present something is better than nothing. SI/Sega have never announced more restrictive DRM than they use at the moment and - despite the occasional hissy fit when you're using DVD drive emulators - I don't think it's too bad at the moment. Personally speaking, I can't see a more reliable method at the moment than remote authorization via internet or telephone - but overall that could be a hugely expensive operation for Sega; I'd suspect it would cost more than it would gain and - still - it would only be a matter of time before it was cracked. Actually, Spore is so pirated because of the DRM. I've read ALOT of reviews on the net from people who buy game but have pirated Spore because af the ridiculous DRM. DRM may not account for it but it wouldn't have been illegally downloaded so much without it, thats a certainty. The example of SOASE is that if you focus on making a good game, it will sell. Less time spent on idiotic DRM, the better the game can be. Companies should worry about making a good game in the first place, rather than protecting absolute *****. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Äktsjon Männ Posted September 16, 2008 Share Posted September 16, 2008 I'd completely dispute your 'pattern'.a) Sins of a Solar Empire is widely available for illegal download. Personally I'd say that Sins sold 500k copies since release because it is apparently a very good game - very little to do with DRM. b) I doubt very much that your average downloader justifies downloading a game 'because they didn't like the DRM'. They download it because they can. I'd also say that Spore was the most anticipated game of the year (by a country mile) so it's no surprise that it is heavily downloaded - I would suggest that would have happened regardless of the DRM involved. Don't get me wrong... I'm not a fan of DRM as it exists at the moment, but at present something is better than nothing. SI/Sega have never announced more restrictive DRM than they use at the moment and - despite the occasional hissy fit when you're using DVD drive emulators - I don't think it's too bad at the moment. Personally speaking, I can't see a more reliable method at the moment than remote authorization via internet or telephone - but overall that could be a hugely expensive operation for Sega; I'd suspect it would cost more than it would gain and - still - it would only be a matter of time before it was cracked. a) You're kind of missing the point. The direction Stardock took with Sins of a Solar Empire meant that in theory anyone could buy the game, make a personal copy, distribute a copy over the internet, lend the game to all their friends and then send it back to get a full refund. If you chose to listen what all the major game publishers have to say about copy protection then you couldn't help but think that this was in fact the only possible scenario. Yet nothing like it happened. Yes Sins is a great game, but that's part of the point. They focus on making the whole game experience better and people buy it regardless of whether they can pirate it or not. Yes it is still pirated, but not more than it would have with a copy protection, possibly even less. But the game has also sold way more copies than they expected. Which means they haven't lost any sales due to not using any protection, I'd even go as far to say they have actually gained a few. Which kind of defies the point of having excessive methods of CP. b) If you had read the Amazon reviews of Spore before EA started to mass delete all the negative ones you would have seen that there are actually hundreds, if not thousands of people publicly saying exactly what you said they wouldn't. Sure, some of them were just lying and not going to buy it anyway. But that must be a minority because, you know what, pirates don't find it necessary to complain about copy protection or DRM. Why would they, it doesn't affect them in any way whatsoever. Also, Spore was a vey much anticipated game, but it's not like there hasn't been much anticipated games before. It is now going to be the most pirated game ever though, gaining 500,000 downloads in it's first few weeks, which is more than twice of the previous record (over the two week period). It would be naive to think there's nothing more to it than the usual hype. The EA's DRM debacle is a huge disappointment for me because while it obviously doesn't work they're still going to include it in their future games. I couldn't care less about Spore personally, but they've already confirmed the DRM is going to be in Red Alert 3. This was one of the few games over the last couple of years that I've actually anticipated (apart from FM's of course) but now I'm not going to buy it. I'm also not going to pirate it so this means I can't play it. Which is sad, but a man must have some principles. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dreaded Walrus Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 Actually, Spore is so pirated because of the DRM. I've read ALOT of reviews on the net from people who buy game but have pirated Spore because af the ridiculous DRM.DRM may not account for it but it wouldn't have been illegally downloaded so much without it, thats a certainty. I'd like to agree with this. I know a lot of people who would have bought it, but downloaded it illegally specifically because of the DRM. Indeed, I know some people who have no intention of even playing it, but downloaded it as a statement. The people who downloaded it but would have bought it previously have different reasons. One reason I have seen is that they would have downloaded it from EA's online store, but EA have actually said that if you buy the game from their online store, that download is only good for six months. After that, you would have to buy the game again in order to download it again. And then there's the whole three/five install limit. Now, sure, many people will only install the game once, but I'm sure we all have games from the past that we reinstall every couple of years to give them a go, right? For me, I probably reinstall Black and White every couple of years and give it a go. I used to do the same thing with Dungeon Keeper 2 every time my brother came round, and I'm sure we've all done the same thing with our own favourite games. Now, it's all fine being able to call up EA and get it reactivated after the install limit "on a case-by-case basis", but EA is known for halting customer support for older titles after a period of time. Are we really to believe that EA would be reactivating my Dungeon Keeper 2 install over the phone after all these years? Twenty years down the line, will they be reactivating Spore if someone calls up who has gone over the install limit? In addition to this, each copy of Spore can only be linked to one account. Despite all these efforts of EA with Spore, it appeared for illegal download online, fully cracked and working, before it even hit the shops. These DRM methods clearly do nothing to prevent illegal downloading. And when they're as bad as Spore's, they actually turn legitimate users away from purchasing, and towards downloading illegally. The real purpose behind EA's DRM methods are to eliminate the second-hand market. When a game is bought pre-owned from Gamestation or what have you, 100% of the revenue goes to the retailer. Therefore, for every person who buys a game preowned rather than brand new, EA gets the same amount of money as if it was downloaded illegally. However, if each legit copy of Spore only allows one account, and if each copy of Spore can only be installed three-to-five times and so on, then shops simply can't take it in and sell it pre-owned. Try trading in your legit copy of Spore. They won't take it in, because it can only be linked to one account (despite the manual saying that multiple accounts can be used. Seriously, try creating a second account for a family member, it won't allow it). This is what's most disgusting about EA's DRM for Spore, and what has made many people download it illegally. /rant (for the record, I couldn't bring myself to pirate Spore, as I had been looking forward to it for so long, and regardless of how EA have ruined it with DRM, Maxis had put a lot of effort into the game, and I couldn't let years of development go unrewarded) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
philly_flyer10 Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 The real purpose behind EA's DRM methods are to eliminate the second-hand market. When a game is bought pre-owned from Gamestation or what have you, 100% of the revenue goes to the retailer. Therefore, for every person who buys a game preowned rather than brand new, EA gets the same amount of money as if it was downloaded illegally. Their brilliant decision to slash the number of second hand sales was to drastically reduce the number of brand new sales. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neji Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 For me, I probably reinstall Black and White every couple of years and give it a go. I used to do the same thing with Dungeon Keeper 2 every time my brother came round, and I'm sure we've all done the same thing with our own favourite games. I'll go for that. Games such as Fallout is something I've played over the years and I can also see my installing KOTOR again sometime soon (I've already installed and completed it twice). Max Payne is something I've also just dug out and installed again. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dreaded Walrus Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 I'll go for that. Games such as Fallout is something I've played over the years and I can also see my installing KOTOR again sometime soon (I've already installed and completed it twice). Max Payne is something I've also just dug out and installed again. Exactly! And then there's always the possibility of publishers going bust, which happens occasionally, or getting bought out. Obviously a bust publisher can't exactly continue to offer reactivations after install limits, and a publisher under new ownership may or may not continue that service. Granted, EA isn't exactly likely to go bust or be bought out any time soon, but there's still the fact that we are at their whim as they can stop customer support for an old title at their leisure. It's because of this that I probably won't uninstall Spore now, even if I don't end up playing it from this point for months at a time. It's just not worth all the hassle. (Oh, and after my rant above, if anyone doubts whether I actually bought the game, feel free to view my rubbishy online profile. The illegal version doesn't have online functionality, for obvious reasons) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Äktsjon Männ Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 I would open a bottle of very good champagne if EA were to go bankrupt. The dev studios that they've bought out and ruined really don't deserve the hard time they get because of that utterly despicable company. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dreaded Walrus Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 I would open a bottle of very good champagne if EA were to go bankrupt. The dev studios that they've bought out and ruined really don't deserve the hard time they get because of that utterly despicable company. To be fair, they had been improving recently, at least in terms of quality. I found Skate, for example, to be thoroughly enjoyable, and I've poured hour after hour into that, even after completing it. Likewise I enjoyed Fight Night Round 3, and Burnout Paradise. Crysis, too. I do agree with you in general though, I dislike EA in general as much as the next guy. It's just a shame that they had seemingly been turning the corner lately, and then they go and do this, screwing over the customer. I'm sure we can rest safe in the fact that no matter what SI end up doing, it won't be as bad as Spore's DRM. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neji Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 I do agree with you in general though, I dislike EA in general as much as the next guy. It's just a shame that they had seemingly been turning the corner lately, and then they go and do this, screwing over the customer. I agree 100%. I was beginning to like EA, they have been showing signs of change but after this whole DRM thing - it just goes to show that they haven't really changed at all. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glyn Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 Not when the only way to make a backup is to circumvent that DRM. The DRM could be depriving the user of making that backup and as such, could be illegal.I dont think any publisher will ever use that EU law in a UK court because a UK court could rule that the UK law overides EU law and that would be bad for publishers. EU Law supercedes UK Law. I don't know of any exception to this at all. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
philly_flyer10 Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 EU Law supercedes UK Law. I don't know of any exception to this at all. It wouldnt bother me or anyone I know if it did. Theres lots of ******** laws, I believe your only allowed to keep copies of Tv programs for a certain amount of time but does anyone erase their VCR/DVR after that time if they havent watched the said program? Same goes for this. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
busby Posted September 24, 2008 Share Posted September 24, 2008 Well why do we pritate software: a) because it's fun(In spore's case actually better then playing the game). b) because we can. c) because we are going to be treated like criminal's anyway. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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