Position training. Natural vs. accomplished

[brussels]

Hi guys,

been searching but couldn't find a relevant thread.

Regarding position... is it worth spending CA points + training time/workload training a player position to natural, when he's already accomplished by default?

In FM15 we seem to have the additional advantage that once the new position becomes natural, the player never looses the ability (correct me if wrong).

In previous versions I had first the habit of retraining positions, then I stopped doing it, and this year I'm doing it again since I have been playing with MR/ML and most players I have available are not proficient in those positions.

Btw... if there's a sticky or a popular thread with this subject, pls be so kind as to forward me there.

Thanks!

[swansongs]

Positional training doesn't use CA (though it does change the weighting of certain attributes so that they can use more/less CA).

Positional familiarity supposedly only effects the (very important) Decisions attribute. How much I don't know.

[brussels]

Positional familiarity supposedly only effects the (very important) Decisions attribute. How much I don't know.

That's the thing... we don't know how the scale is.

Maybe the factoring is very small but when a player is played out of position it affects more the morale (playing "nervously" / "complacent").

We also don't know if it affects in a linear manner, or it's exponential. We also don't know how much decisions actually factors all the other attributes :confused:

TBH whenever I used a player in an "accomplished" position usually they return good performances, in every version.

I thought position training took CA, thanks for clarifying that.

[Cleon]

The player can lose natural status after you've trained it if you play him in other positions, this has been in the game a fair few years and isn't something new or been changed.

The worse the ratings for the position he's playing then lower his decision making will be, so someone with no position familiarity will make more mistakes and get caught out in the wrong places more frequent that someone with a better rating and so on. But it's not that much of an issue if the player has the attributes to play the position you are asking him too. Attributes are more important than positions.

[brussels]

Ok, I found a post yesterday from which I understood the player wouldn't loose natural status in this version

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/412939-Retraining-player-positions?highlight=accomplished

So, Cleon, in your opinion if a player has good relevant attributes for CB (let's imagine a DM, or a Fullback), but he's only accomplished in the CB position, it's not really needed to "waste" training workload in making him natural for that position.

That's maybe why I generally enjoyed good performances when playing players occassionally out of position even though they are not natural (in FM15 and in previous versions too).

For instance in my NUFC save I'm using Obertan, Cabella and Gouffran as ML/MR and are my best players, despite not really playing in their natural positions (AMR, AMC and AML respectively).

[Cleon]

Ok, I found a post yesterday from which I understood the player wouldn't loose natural status in this version

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/412939-Retraining-player-positions?highlight=accomplished

So, Cleon, in your opinion if a player has good relevant attributes for CB (let's imagine a DM, or a Fullback), but he's only accomplished in the CB position, it's not really needed to "waste" training workload in making him natural for that position.

That's maybe why I generally enjoyed good performances when playing players occassionally out of position even though they are not natural (in FM15 and in previous versions too).

For instance in my NUFC save I'm using Obertan, Cabella and Gouffran as ML/MR and are my best players, despite not really playing in their natural positions (AMR, AMC and AML respectively).

Accomplished is more than fine yeah.

[santy001]

There's no guide to attribute weightings because it's almost impossible to provide that information now so don't worry about it too much when thinking of retraining players. The system has gotten more advanced over the past few years certainly since the days of FM08/09 whereby you could retrain a striker to be competent in MC and DC and it would throw weightings out the window artificially allowing players to improve much further.

If a player can play MC he has a specific set of attribute weightings, but if he can play MC and DM he has a different set, different from a player who just plays DM. There's too many position combinations to ever effectively allow the player base to get a grip on how to get maximum benefits from the system and I think even the people who develop the editors for the game largely only get to hazard a guess at it rather than finding out the actual values. Which is a good thing.

As for retraining players, it's an excellent thing to make use of recently retrained a DC/DR to AML as he had brilliant stats to play that role, and was an awful defender. Took a couple of years as he wasn't the most versatile of players but he became capable of rivaling Eden Hazard for the left wing spot.

[swansongs]

Does Versatility influence how fast a player learns or their level of performance in the new role while learning? Both?

[santy001]

It's not just versatility alone, but it does have a role to play. An unprofessional, but versatile player may still take a while to train for example. I think it also has a role to play in the maintaining of positional training, if for example you stop training the player to play there, and stop playing him there and it hasn't become his natural position it will diminish over time as well.

[alinp]

I believe in FMC that just playing your man in a new position will eventually train him to that position - does anyone know if this excellent subtlety has been added to full fat version yet?

[BoxToBox]

I believe in FMC that just playing your man in a new position will eventually train him to that position - does anyone know if this excellent subtlety has been added to full fat version yet?

That's if your assistant controls training, he just puts them on the position training if you play them there.

[brussels]

I was considering only the scenario where the player is already naturally "accomplished".

TBH ever barely used players in a position where they are "unconvincing / awkward", nor I trained a player in a completely different position where their profile would be more useful (when I read Cleon's article I thought that probably I wasted some interesting newgens by not "re-training" them in both attributes and positions).

What's been your overall experience when using players who are below natural or accomplished? (i.e. unconvincing/awkward)

[themightyyak]

I'm coming round to the attributes are the most important thing and positional familiarity is of a much lesser importance.

For instance, Roberto Martinez said that Leighton Baines could do a Lahm and transform himself in to a controlling midfielder in the future. I tried to implement this and played Baines aas a CMs is a possession based 4-3-3. He bossed it, getting 8s and 9s regularly in the match ratings.

[BoxToBox]

I had a DM in 14, that was perfect for a right back, played him there from pre season, all season long. From no ability to natural, never dropped below a 7.5 rating.

[baboyray]

They can get natural just being played in the position without you altering the training if they are already accomplished.

The players position training adjusts itself on his training screen so he is training in the accomplished position helping it become natural and it doesn't take up any additional training time.

[swansongs]

I'm coming round to the attributes are the most important thing and positional familiarity is of a much lesser importance.

For instance, Roberto Martinez said that Leighton Baines could do a Lahm and transform himself in to a controlling midfielder in the future. I tried to implement this and played Baines aas a CMs is a possession based 4-3-3. He bossed it, getting 8s and 9s regularly in the match ratings.

Was he scoring free-kicks? I hate when my midfielders do that and I'm trying to judge their performance.

[themightyyak]

Was he scoring free-kicks? I hate when my midfielders do that and I'm trying to judge their performance.

No he wasn't, much to my disgust. I've hardly seen any free kick goals.

Baines scored 1 in the two seasons I played

[HesBiggerThanMeAndYou]

I find that if I try to play a player out of position he can have 2-3 good games then out of nowhere he'll have a complete shocker.