Anglo-Saxon Shield Wall

[red dragon1978]

Indulge me for a second. In 1066 Harold Godwinson faced William of Normandy on the field at Hastings. Forming his troops into the feared and unbreakable shield wall, he repelled attack after attack. However, the wall was broken when some soldiers broke ranks and chased the retreating Normans, who were actually faking the retreat. They turned, slaughtered their pursuers, smashed the weakened shield wall and William carried the day.

I recently had a decent game ruined by my inability to break down a team who parked the bus with 11 men behind the ball every time I attacked. I lost to a break-away counter goal in the end. I sat and thought about it, then a program on TV referenced the Anglo Saxons, which got me thinking.

The defending team were like the Anglo Saxons, and I like William battering against the shield wall, unable to break through. Then the defenders broke on me, and I was unable to take advantage or prevent it. I'm wondering if I can utilise the lessons of Hastings and employ similar tactics. I have some initial thoughts and would like feedback (including telling me I'm bonkers, that's fine).

Ok, so my thoughts. Formation, 4-2-3-1 with the 2 in the CM strata and the 3 in the AM with a False 9 or Advanced Forward.

The idea hinges on two tactics. The first is a high pressing, high tempo, full on attacking phase:

GK (Def) Long Kicks

Fullbacks (Attack) Cross from Byline

CBs (Def)

CM (BWM) Def

CM ( BWM) Supp

AML (Winger), Att Get Forward

AMR (Inside Forward) Att Shoot more often

AMC (Shadow) Att

ST (False 9) Support

My thought is the fullbacks would bomb forward, the defensive BWM would drop back to make at worse a 3 man defensive triangle. The AML/R cut in, giving the defending fullbacks a problem whether to go with or mark the on-rushing fulls. The False 9 drops in midfield to cause confusion in the centre of defence as the Advanced Playmaker pushes forward. All players pressing hard and playing short, fast passing. The aim is to treat the defending team as the Saxon shield wall, attempting to pull it out of shape with movement, batter it with pressure, and outflank it on the wings.

This attacking phase would be used 15 minutes at the start and end of each half, aiming to start hard and fast, catch the defenders cold, and finish the same, hoping to catch them tired.

It would be interspersed with a second tactic, same formation, a standard 'counter'.

GK (Def) pass to defenders; play out of defense

Fullbacks (Attack)

CBs (Def)

CM (BWM) Supp

CM (DLP) Supp

CM (BWM) Att

AML (Winger) Att

AMR (Inside Forward) Att

ST (Ad. For) Att

In this phase the attackers relieve the pressure from the first tactic, retreating into a solid defensive 4-3-2-1, inviting the defenders to attack before counter attacking with pace, width and direct passing. Again used for 15 minutes between the 2 attacking phases, giving my players a little bit of a break before hitting the defensive wall hard a second time.

Haven't tried this yet (too busy setting up a new computer). I might be completely wrong in this idea but appreciate and look forward to feedback

[RTHerringbone]

You are bonkers

Breaking down a stubborn defence requires subtlety, patience and craft. Your first system has none of these traits and is open to be countered which is exactly what the AI is looking to do with its set up.

1. Vacant flanks with AML/R which don't defend well, and all four players on Attack

2. Indisciplined CM pairing, which is suicidal given point 1

3. Probable issues with the AMC / ST Duty mix, which will usually see the SS and F9 in congested space

4. Generally bad mix of Duties - far too Attacking, which relates to the lack of subtlety, patience and craft

System two:

1. Same issues with overly mobile MC line not affording cover to overly aggressive back line

2. Isolated striker

3. Lack of defensive effort from forward players

4. Lack of variety and composure with Duty allocation up front again

In summary, your Role and Duty balance is consistently far too aggressive, and simply using a deeper Mentality will not mask its deficiencies.

[red dragon1978]

ok, thanks RT, that's what I needed. I'm useless at this, as you can tell....even when I have a successful tactic, I have no idea how!

[Jambo98]

Some interesting thought gone into that, and love the references A few issue though that you might find:

Tactic 1

• Playing 2 x BWM wll not give you the shape you described i wouldnt think. They are very aggressive pressing type players and will get pulled out of the CM position a lot. I dont think the defence duty player will give you "drop back to make 3 man defensive triangle" that you hope for. Perhaps a DLP(d) is closer to what you want for that role?
  
• You then go on to say the "advanced player maker pushes forward", but your player listing doesnt actually contain an advanced play maker? A little confused there
  
• You also mention the AML/R cutting in, during your description. However you have the AML role set as "winger" - How will you achieve the cutting inside with this role? You will need either a PPM, a bit of PI or some clever use of inverse footedness? But if cutting in is the main aim of this player, winger is perhaps not the right role?
  
• You mention a lot of movement pulling the opposition out of shape. But with attacking mentality, and 3 attacking duties in the AM strata, how are you going to actually achieve that movement? The F9 will in theory do that, but your so high and so many attacking players coming into the space behind, where is he going to go when he wants to come deep?
  
• Why is your keeper on kick it long, out of interest?
  

Tactic 2

• You have said this is the same formation, but your roles list has 3 x CM players?
  
• You have a proposed BWM on attack - Such a role/duty combination does not exist im afraid
  
• On the counter tactic, your keeper is now distributing short rather than long? Is this maybe the wrong way round?
  

I dont think your concept is overly bonkers, but perhaps need some more thought into translating the thought into reality. Including some of the fundamentals there.

Give it a try setting it up when you have the game in front of you, and play a match or two and maybe post some screenies of how you actually set it up. I fear it wont work at all as you have laid it out, but with some re-thinking you can perhaps make your vision more of a reality.

Good luck.

[red dragon1978]

I'm playing as Wrexham, Vanarama Conference. I've come up against Hyde in the FA Trophy and despite six replays (I'm now just treating this save as a training aid to my ineptitude) I cannot beat them.

I'm 9th in my league, 16 wins from 20. They're 12th in the league below me, drew the previous game and lost the one before that. I beat the league leaders in my last game...easily.

My scout informs me that Hydes weakness is 'work rate'. I have ideas for exploiting weak pace, height, heading, etc....but nothing for work rate. Their best attribute is Pace.

In every game so far, they park the bus good and proper. The second I get the ball, they're scrambling to get 11 men behind the ball. And I have zero idea how to counter that. I keep getting caught on the break, thanks to that decent pace they possess. Now I've got (ok, almost got) past the feeling that a team with low work rate shouldn't be able to defend for 94 minutes and win on the counter, I really want to find out how to beat the 'park the bus' defence, give them the shellacking the hassle they've put me through deserves, and start a new game with my new found bus pass. Any advice?

[RTHerringbone]

As you know by now, we need a certain level of information in order to help:

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/327822-Asking-For-Help-PLEASE-READ-THIS

[isignedupfornorealreason]

You said William faked a retreat to break the wall then come up with tactics that empathise waves of unrelenting attacks on a wall? I think you might have missed the point you made.

[Jambo98]

Also, how does the relate to the other similar thread you created 42mins earlier on a similar topic? Are they totally different saves/problems that you are looking for input with, or one and the same?

[red dragon1978]

Sorry RT, I thought I gave as much as needed.

My team/level, as I said, is Wrexham in the Vanarama Conference. I've won 16 of 20, am 9th and last played and beat the league leaders. I'm facing Hyde, 12th in the league below me in the FA Trophy, and they've not won in their previous 2 games.

My shape/formation is effectively irrelevant as I've tried 442, 4231, 433, 541, 451 with heavens knows what different instructions. I've had to replace the computer since I last played and can't remember everything I did

My board expectations are that I reach the 4th round of this cup....this is the semi final so those expectations are irrelevant

The problem, as I stated, is that they continually park the bus, getting 11 men behind the ball and I have no idea how to counter them. The scout report indicates their worst attribute as their work rate, their best as their pace. I can believe the latter because I continually get caught on the break, but I'm surprised a team with low work rate can defend almost solidly for 94 minutes. I have no screenshots etc because of the loss of my previous computer to a virus over the weekend.

Hope this is enough info as it's all I have lol

[RTHerringbone]

Also, how does the relate to the other similar thread you created 42mins earlier on a similar topic? Are they totally different saves/problems that you are looking for input with, or one and the same?

Not enough to warrant two threads Merged.

[RTHerringbone]

My shape/formation is effectively irrelevant as I've tried 442, 4231, 433, 541, 451 with heavens knows what different instructions.

Do you not realise what the issue is?

You are chopping and changing with no vision in your head. You need to commit to a certain style of play. I don't buy the "parking the bus" argument, as a sound tactical set up should be able to pick its way through most resolute of defences.

Your earlier systems highlight a fundamentally flawed interpretation of Role / Duty allocation, plus some unusual Team Instructions. You need to slow down, get back to basics and stop making knee-jerk changes.

[Fosse]

How are you 9th if you've won 16 out of 20?

[red dragon1978]

Cos they were 22nd when I took over, Fosse!

[Luizinho]

3. Probable issues with the AMC / ST Duty mix, which will usually see the SS and F9 in congested space

I thought this pairing is supposed to be very effective?

[Jambo98]

Sorry RT, I thought I gave as much as needed.

My team/level, as I said, is Wrexham in the Vanarama Conference. I've won 16 of 20, am 9th and last played and beat the league leaders. I'm facing Hyde, 12th in the league below me in the FA Trophy, and they've not won in their previous 2 games.

My shape/formation is effectively irrelevant as I've tried 442, 4231, 433, 541, 451 with heavens knows what different instructions. I've had to replace the computer since I last played and can't remember everything I did

My board expectations are that I reach the 4th round of this cup....this is the semi final so those expectations are irrelevant

The problem, as I stated, is that they continually park the bus, getting 11 men behind the ball and I have no idea how to counter them. The scout report indicates their worst attribute as their work rate, their best as their pace. I can believe the latter because I continually get caught on the break, but I'm surprised a team with low work rate can defend almost solidly for 94 minutes. I have no screenshots etc because of the loss of my previous computer to a virus over the weekend.

Hope this is enough info as it's all I have lol

I dont wish to sound to harsh but until such time as you realise that the bit in bold is so far wrong that you need to chuck away every thought you have about football manager and start with a clean sheet of paper, you wont ever get anything other than random luck, unsustainable success

Formation and shape are the absolute core of what any sucessfull team is based on. You could pick a world 11 of the best players, but if they dont have a suitable formation and shape, which fits their individual talents, they would not be a success.

Its hugely frustrating in the lower leagues i know. I managed a record 11 consecutive losses in the danish bottom division not so long ago!But you need to create a base and stick to it, then tweak one or two bits at a time based on what you actually see, not what might think or what your frustrations tell you. Watch the game and react in a measured and logical manner. You wont win every game, but you will be surprised how well it works

[Fosse]

\oh right fair play the, I thought you started the season from the beginning - It'd be a strong league if you did start at the beginning!

[red dragon1978]

I know what you mean, Jambo. What I was referring to was that it was irrelevant for me to try and give the shape and formation as I'd tried so many different ones with different roles, positions, etc and I've actually forgotten most of what I'd done. I do have a regular set of formations and tactics I use, none of which had been effective, and neither had any of my experiments. I worded it badly when I said they were effectively irrelevant, I should've said 'it's irrelevant to try and explain my shape and formation'. And, if I'm brutally honest, I wouldn't even know where to start with a clean sheet of paper!! I've never been able to work out tactics like that, with arrows etc....I would love to be able to but I've never figured it out. Most of my FM experience is, indeed, random luck. When I get a winning formation, as I had in the last save, it works really well, if I win, I win a LOT. But while I can pick out bits and pieces from the game, I've never been able to analyse the game in any great depth. Wish I could!

[red dragon1978]

Progress at last....with a 4-3-2-1 (wide AML AMR) Attacking, High Closing Down, Tight Marking and Direct Passing....I've actually scored 1st. First time in 9 attempts I've ever taken the lead.

[red dragon1978]

And they equalise within 3 minutes

[red dragon1978]

Just a quick illustration of the absolute joke this fixture actually is. Tell me what I'm doing wrong when my opponents are effectively outplayed, losing on almost every single stat, and score with their only shot on target.

I know you'll say 'bad luck'....but this is the 9th straight match like this. Outplay them, out possess, pass, shoot, (ok not ccc's) tackle, aerial, and corner them...and get held by the one shot they put between the sticks.

[Jambo98]

Except its not the 9th straight match. Its the same match 9 times. Do you think that will help you if you suddenly win that game?

Play the game properly. Stop replaying one game. Because you know what, bad results happen. The best team stats wise doesnt always win. You are forgetting that things like morale, pre match press conferences, your previous full time team talk are already set in stone before you kick this match off.

If you really want help - Play your next 3 fixtures with a tactic of your chosing. Try to make it a simple one, nothing complex in roles or duties. Play the 3 games, watching them in some detail (i realise you cant watch all 90mins, lets be reaslistic) and post up the results and some analysis screenshots. Then maybe we can try to give you some real guidance.

Otherwise, im afraid it comes across as just another rant about the game/ME. Sorry dude.

[Noel Gallagher]

Hi there red dragon1978,

Of those 7 shots on target, how many of them were actually inside the box? A lot of times people say they've had loads of shots but it turns out are just speculative long shots which won't really trouble the keeper but they count as a shot on target.

It could be a case that Hyde actually created better quality chances than you even though they had less?

To me those kind of statistics illustrate that your team is passing it around (giving you the high possession stat) but not actually creating anything worthwhile so are just launching long shots at the keeper.

I could be wrong but that's my gut feeling.

[red dragon1978]

I was hoping to eventually learn what I'm doing wrong in that 1 match against a particular tactic, tbh, I've long given up on this as a viable save, but it appears that whatever the opponents are doing, I just don't get it. And previously I'd also played the next match, again against a much inferior team, as in 9th v 20th. I might have won 4-3, but that's against opponents with less than a goal a game average, scoring almost from the kick-off every time I scored. I apologise for another rant, but imho, there is no way either of these results is realistic. Up to now, my tactic has worked extremely effectively, netting over 50 goals in 20 games. So to go from that, from beating the league leaders, to being out worked by a team who according to my scouts, can't work, and then conceding my second highest goals in a game to a team who can't score, is utterly crazy. I know you can't win every match, and I don't expect to. What I 'expect' is for my form to not suddenly go through the floor for absolutely no reason after the best result of the season, for teams with low work-rate to not out work me, and for teams who can't score to net a hatful against me when the top team in the division couldn't. I appreciate your offer of guidance, and would accept it if I could see the point of carrying on. I've read everything I can, Cleons Ajax thread, the guides, the forums, and come up with a decent tactic, based incidentally on the IRL tactic of the team, so I'm not just plucking things out of the air. And then, out of nowhere, literally from one match to the next, my tactic becomes almost completely useless. I might, in time, load up a new save. For now, I admit my deficiencies and my failings, but stand by my thoughts that in some major ways, the game, while not 'broken', simply seems to, excuse the pun, move the goal posts. I've never seen a team 22nd in the league below mine for work rate defend so resolutely for 94 minutes, nor have I seen such Messi like finishing for a team almost in the relegation zone as the following match. I will follow the updates and developments of FM 15 with interest, but I finally admit. I'm done. Football Manager has become too intricate, too complex, and too utterly random.

[red dragon1978]

Just to answer Noel.....9 of my shots were inside the area, 4 were on the edge...ie no further out than the D and 3 were from 25-30 yards. The breakdown, far as I remember, was 7 saved, 1 hit the woodwork, 1 missed from inside the area. 2 missed, 1 blocked, 1 saved from the edge, and all 3 from distance missed. So the majority of my shots were actually from within the area.

[RTHerringbone]

You simply need to start again after reading the Pairs and Combinations thread.

There is no point whatsoever in fretting about the AI Work Rate etc. if your basic tactic is bad. That's the harsh truth of it. The two tactics listed at the top of the thread are simply bad, and it is reasonable to assume that your thought process with those systems has blighted all systems you have created. Take a deep breath, start again and just get the basics right. Only use instructions if you know what they do. Ignore the AI Work Rate, Technique etc. Just get your system "right".

[red dragon1978]

Read it before starting this save. And the team building guides. And the Ajax thread. And the building a tactic for long term thread. And every other thread you'll care to advise me to read, already did. I spent almost a week reading, taking notes and working on fitting what I read into what I wanted from my team, and what my players could and couldn't do, before starting this save. Apparently, didn't understand any of it. And as for my basic tactic being bad....20 games, 16 wins, 52 scored, team from 22nd to 9th in 13 league matches, beat the top of the league 2-0. Don't think it was that bad.

[RTHerringbone]

If you have read those threads, and still set up tactics as you do, then you must have been skim reading

Pairs and Combinations could not be a clearer thread, and your selections bear no resemblance to the core advice of that thread.

If you really achieved the results you did without regularly employing your apparent propensity to reload, using those tactics, then you were extraordinarily lucky or the game is knackered.

[red dragon1978]

I only reload when the AI does something absolutely ridiculous such as happened in this game. The 16 were achieved with no reloads, and in fact if I do reload, I always ditch that save and start afresh. If I were of the mind to bother with FM, I would ditch the current game. I hate reloading and only do it when I believe, as I firmly do, that the AI has changed things, given me wrong information, and made it literally impossible for me to win. 9 attempts at the same game with different ideas, different set ups and resulting in practically identical results every time, entirely regardless of my setup, appear to bear this out conclusively.

Those selections were an idea, an attempt to beat a situation the game had presented me with, and bear little to no resemblance to my main tactics, which comprise a 4-5-1, 4-2-3-1 and 4-2-3-1 DM. I do agree however that in several matches I have been somewhat lucky, and very, very strongly agree with 'the game is knackered'. I felt this about 14, about the 15 beta, and was highly delighted to find that the actual game seemed to be playable. How wrong I was.

[Cleon]

Feel free to repost when you show that you do actually want to learn and are willing to take the advice on board given, if not the thread will get closed liked this one. It feels like you are asking for help then when someone offers it, you are putting your fingers in your ears going 'lalalalalala' and not really listening.

[RTHerringbone]

I assume you also reload when you win a match as a result of something you perceive to be an injustice?

I'm with Cleon on this one.