Bust the Net - Football Manager Tactics

[Rashidi]

Should I try flexible for my flat 4-4-2 and see how it goes? I play fluid and it seems that some times, especially when defending, my team is too compact.

You had to go there didn't you?

Fluid systems will be more compact, you will mitigate that with the right roles.

[Keyzer Soze]

@Keyser

Looking at your system you have two roles in midfield that appear to be almost the same. A CM on attack could play like a playmaker as well. You must remember the game has generic roles that can play like specialist roles with the right PIs. So its fairly hard for me to judge. What I would do if I had doubts would be to turn the two wingbacks to fullbacks first. Then I would start watching the game closely and determine how transitions are happening in midfield. If you find that you are not winning the second ball, then I would focus on the roles of the two central mids.

Thks for the reply.

About the PI's i have my MC(a) with roam from position and move into channels instruction, and my AP(s) with hold position.

So in my mind I think they play very different from each other.

The idea, was having one staying more in the back (the AP) while the CM would be almost like a second man into the area.

One thing I didn't understand is the suggestion to swap the wing backs for fullbacks. Why did you suggest that?

[shirajzl]

So know what you want, then build accordingly. Trust me, when I say this. If you understand the basics of the approach I use, I guarantee you EVERY VERSION of FM will be easy!

You see, it sounds so simple and logical, but that's because you understand every and each setting in the game and what it does under what circumstances.

I've watched all your videos and it's amazing how tactical changes roll off your tongue after only a few minutes of watching the game.

My problem, like the problem of loads of others, is that we may even spot a tactical issue, but have no idea what to change. Is it a role, a duty, a PI, TI, mentality, shape, what? And if we get what is it, how do you know why the option x and not y? There are always a few logical solutions and it seems impossible to know off the bat which one to pick (unless I see someone like you play the game, that is).

You talk about transitions, managing space etc., but what does it mean exactly when watching an FM match? You can see within seconds that a player A stands too far away from a player B, but how do we, without your experience, know how far is too far? It's just an example, a similar things occur when people talk about passing options and loads of other things.

Don't take this the wrong way, it's just my frustration talking through me.

[Rashidi]

You see, it sounds so simple and logical, but that's because you understand every and each setting in the game and what it does under what circumstances.

I've watched all your videos and it's amazing how tactical changes roll off your tongue after only a few minutes of watching the game.

My problem, like the problem of loads of others, is that we may even spot a tactical issue, but have no idea what to change. Is it a role, a duty, a PI, TI, mentality, shape, what? And if we get what is it, how do you know why the option x and not y? There are always a few logical solutions and it seems impossible to know off the bat which one to pick (unless I see someone like you play the game, that is).

You talk about transitions, managing space etc., but what does it mean exactly when watching an FM match? You can see within seconds that a player A stands too far away from a player B, but how do we, without your experience, know how far is too far? It's just an example, a similar things occur when people talk about passing options and loads of other things.

Don't take this the wrong way, it's just my frustration talking through me.

I know it can be hard for people, my knowledge of the engine is probably second to none bar the lads in SI. So when I see the game I am probably looking at different things. I hope this helps. My suggestion to people who are coming to grips is to forget using any of the roles that make no sense to you. If you notice I have never used the inverted full, the limted fullback, the regista, I hardly even use the TQ, definitely haven;t even touched the shadow striker. I avoid anything I don't use very often. Instead I always use the same roles, because I know what to expect. This season I am using the defensive forward more, cos I like how it plays.

Using the same roles eliminates the notion of whether its the player or the role. I am also very consistent in my player selections, I keep those consistent as well. When I watch the match, I am also consistent with match ratings, subbing really low players.

Consistency allows me to spot things faster. The biggest thing I am looking for is transitions. These are really hard to spot at first because you don't know what to look for. This is waht I suggest:

Any player who is on attack role

When you go from defense to attack - how well do they get up? Do they get up early, fast, do they make themselves available. If you want fast transitions then you need off the ball. If you don't see them bolting off early then you need to look at his attributes or his role.

Any player who is on support - here teamwork and bravery is vital. Are these players dropping back and assisting. I expect EVERY support player to be able to block the cross. Oppositions cross completion rate against me is always less than 15%. Support roles need to make good transitions between def - mid and mid-def. This is what I am looking for.

Any player who is on defend - here positioning and reading the game are vital. Are they spotting the interception?

People may see transitions, but won't know how to make the right change. If a player is too slow to move, then check his attributes..acceleration low? anticipation low? swap players in a game, before subbing or drop defensive line if they are defenders.

The easiest transition is the counter attack. Defending this is what you learn early. Look to see if your players are running facing goal, if they are then you are too high.

I hardly ever change PIs. Its really hard to place a priority list of what to do first, second and third. Last season I never made shape changes. Now I do. Role changes are rare for me to make. I will change Defensive line and Shape before I change mentality.

I would go play FM touch a lot, and master these there. And yeah, for me I guess it comes from YEARS of testing the match engine by playing matches on full. I don;t do that anymore. I wouldn't give up, instead I would come up with a system of checks

[shirajzl]

Yeah, that system of checks is what a lot of people in my position would benefit greatly from. That way we'd know where to begin when watching games and what to focus on in practical terms.

However, that system can provide only someone like you (well, SI, too, but they don't want to). In the post above you've just scratched the surface and it's already a handful of useful advice. Something like that is sorely missed when it comes to tactics in FM.

[Continum]

Been reading almost all of your articles the last few days, and I have to say I am really impressed by your work. Really, really great read. Have helped my game a lot and I now enjoy football manager more then ever. Thanks a lot and keep up the good work! Definitely one of the best.

[woland]

Hello everyone.

I have a questions regarding "dark arts of attacking football" video. Are there any subtitles for this video, or detail explanation, what are saying in this video, because unfortunately i don't understand a main ideas of some parts.

For example, on 8:05 it is said something like "players who are more attacking minded are more involved in the transitions, players who are defensive minded are more involved in the transitions". So, what a point? Both are types involved in transitions?

[Jean0987654321]

Hello everyone.

I have a questions regarding "dark arts of attacking football" video. Are there any subtitles for this video, or detail explanation, what are saying in this video, because unfortunately i don't understand a main ideas of some parts.

For example, on 8:05 it is said something like "players who are more attacking minded are more involved in the transitions, players who are defensive minded are more involved in the transitions". So, what a point? Both are types involved in transitions?

I think he (raishidi) made a boo-boo there

I think he meant that players on defend duty will have a higher mentality which means that they will be obliged to attack more often due to the nature of the mentality (eg. Attacking)

[Rashidi]

Hello everyone.

I have a questions regarding "dark arts of attacking football" video. Are there any subtitles for this video, or detail explanation, what are saying in this video, because unfortunately i don't understand a main ideas of some parts.

For example, on 8:05 it is said something like "players who are more attacking minded are more involved in the transitions, players who are defensive minded are more involved in the transitions". So, what a point? Both are types involved in transitions?

There are basically several kinds of transitions:

Defend to midfield

Midfield to attack

Defense to attack ( Counter )

Attack to defense

As you can see there are various kinds of transitions, if you have an attacking mentality, when a team goes from midfield to attack, the (A) players are more likely to move up into attack. Players who are more defensively minded (roles/duties) are going to hang back, and not overcommit. Mentality sets it overall for the team, and for individual duties act to compound or mitigate them.

For example: So if you are setting up a counter attacking mentality, and you have say 3 players on attack, the players on Defend and Support are more likely to come back in time to support during a defensive transition, and take longer to move into the final third during an attacking transition in the final third of the pitch.

[woland]

Hello rashidi1,

thanks for the answer.

So, the main idea in video on this moment (8:05) is following:

Increasing of team mentality increase player mentality: defend duties become more support, support become more attack, attack become much more attack.

Increasing of shape decrease a difference between duties: defend become more support, support almost not changing, attack become more support.

Am I right?

If yes. I still don't understand, how it affect on transitions. I understand, that on fluid shape, i could make some mistakes (in tactic), because if my players will have bad duties, they anyway will participating in transitions. Or i'm wrong? Also i'm sure, that there are another effects and risks, but i don't now what exactly.

[LEEMOD]

God this thread is superb, read it all from start to end whilst making notes, made some transfers to suit key attributes and already seen huge improvements!

[Jonny2J]

I love reading Rashidi's updates, he breaks down and explains all of his tactical decisions so well.

[Earnie is God!]

Some excellent insight there, Rashidi. I watched all the Torino videos and found them very interesting and a lot of what you do is actually very simple when you think about it.

I think a lot of people get caught up in the thought that you have to 'trick' the ME and cheat it somehow to come out on top so they try all these different things and download all these so-called wonderful tactics to try and 'beat the system'.

But you have shown that you can take just about any tactic and formation and tweak it to suit your players and then alter it as you see fit during a game to try and come out on top.

I know you have done many threads, blogs and videos and I have read/watched a lot of them but I think I may have seen too many and my brain is a bit fried and it has started to confuse me slightly. I'll explain why:

In your recent addicted to FM 'Club DNA' blog you talk about overachieving sides and how the first thing you look for in every edition of FM is work-rate as it is vital, along with strength, stamina, acceleration and a few others so that your hard working team keeps on fighting.

But you don't mention determination at all. Would that not be just as important?

Then moving on to Torino and how you managed to get them to perform; surely they would also fall into the category of overachievers yet work rate hardly gets a mention and, instead, you say you look for first touch, composure, determination and concentration to start with. On this thread, you also say that these are the four things you first look for in any side you manage.

So can you see where I'm a bit unsure? I too like to take on a smallish side and build them up and tend to follow a similar principal to your 'overachievers' but, for me, determination is a must.

If you have time, could you just clear this up a bit? Thanks

[Rashidi]

Ah Earnie, in the first season, I did look at work rate, acceleration and first touch. If you want to overachieve, your team needs to work harder than the opposition. Tactics help too, but no tactic can make up for a side with bad work rate. Determination helps with turning over a deficit. Its a good attribute but not a key one for my sides. For holding players and defensive midfielders I will look at aggression and determination, provided their tackling, positioning and anticipation are good. If his aggression is >than his tackling, then I will probably not use him.

[Stratcat]

What a great thread! Is this the same legendary Rashidi who used to make awesome tactics way back in the day? ??

[mikcheck]

Rashidi i'm curious to know if you'd buy a player with only 8 at work rate but with some promising attacking attributes?

I'm talking about Gérson, the wonderkid from Fluminense with 18yo. I'm playing FM15 and he is that promising but not sure about 8 for work rate!

[James9]

Rashidi I was reading your post on Mentality and Team shape. There was something which I wanted you to clear up. You mentioned that Fluid shape brings the team closer together and make them more compact. You then went on to. say and also demonstrate that playing on Fluid could result and balls over the top of the defence. You also mentioned that there was things that can be done to solve this problem. Now I am playing a Control Mentality and Fluid team shape then I would say to drop the D Line to stop the balls over the top. My other thought would be to go Standard. Do you think I am on the right track with understanding what to do.

When playing with a Structured team you mentioned that this makes the team more spread and the gap between the defence and midfield is greater. You showed examples of this in your post What I got from your post was that in a structured mentality defenders defend and attackets attack which leaves the midfielders 50/50 but this depends on their role and duty.

Would it be right to say that within a structured mentality to get the team to be more compact then pushing up the D Line is needed and give players PI to encourage them to get forward so the gap between players is reduced.

I would like to hear your thoughts

[Rashidi]

What a great thread! Is this the same legendary Rashidi who used to make awesome tactics way back in the day? 

Yup, same one, thanks for the memories :-)

Rashidi i'm curious to know if you'd buy a player with only 8 at work rate but with some promising attacking attributes?

I'm talking about Gérson, the wonderkid from Fluminense with 18yo. I'm playing FM15 and he is that promising but not sure about 8 for work rate!

Players develop over time, there is a possibility that it could improve. I'd certainly target him for tutoring and try to improve his personality if its not professional.

Rashidi I was reading your post on Mentality and Team shape. There was something which I wanted you to clear up. You mentioned that Fluid shape brings the team closer together and make them more compact. You then went on to. say and also demonstrate that playing on Fluid could result and balls over the top of the defence. You also mentioned that there was things that can be done to solve this problem. Now I am playing a Control Mentality and Fluid team shape then I would say to drop the D Line to stop the balls over the top. My other thought would be to go Standard. Do you think I am on the right track with understanding what to do.

When playing with a Structured team you mentioned that this makes the team more spread and the gap between the defence and midfield is greater. You showed examples of this in your post What I got from your post was that in a structured mentality defenders defend and attackets attack which leaves the midfielders 50/50 but this depends on their role and duty.

Would it be right to say that within a structured mentality to get the team to be more compact then pushing up the D Line is needed and give players PI to encourage them to get forward so the gap between players is reduced.

I would like to hear your thoughts

Whenever there are balls over the top, the solution is to either put in players with better anticipation, positioning and acceleration or drop your d-line, either one or both. The moment you see your players running back facing the goal, then you have to recognise the fact that you are playing with a high line. There will be times when this is intentional, it's important to be aware of it.

If I wanted to play more compact, I certainly wouldn't just push up my d-line if i were playing structured, I'd just change shape. Playing structured increases vertical gaps, this gives more room for players to run into and to exploit. For example, if i were playing a defensive mentality, its really hard to play that on fluid. If you lowered the d-line then you would be bringing the danger closer to the box. This opens up other issues, like players making bad tackles in dangerous areas leaving you vulnerable to through balls.

When playing shape changes, we need to think of it in terms of risk. So mentality and shape work together, which is a good thing cos that never was the case before. You are right to think of mentality/shape and defensive line together. What I would do is leave closing down unchanged in midfield. That way when you make these kind of changes its more manageable

Defensive line changes are meant to exert pressure on the opposition at the risk of you being vulnerable

Mentality changes are meant to increase the amount of options your players are willing to consider when they go forward

Shape changes are meant to influence the number of players who are going to participate in transitions.

[James9]

Could you recommend any good shapes to use when playing Structured.

[mikcheck]

Thanks Rashidi

[Rashidi]

Could you recommend any good shapes to use when playing Structured.

You mean tactics right? Any system with a DM plays structured well. You could try the 51222WB system.

[woland]

On 7/3/2016 at 09:07, Rashidi said:

Playing structured increases vertical gaps, this gives more room for players to run into and to exploit. For example, if i were playing a defensive mentality, its really hard to play that on fluid.

...

When playing shape changes, we need to think of it in terms of risk. So mentality and shape work together, which is a good thing cos that never was the case before. 

Hello everyone,

could someone explain, why defensive mentality and fluid shape work togehter bad? What is wrong, if my player will be shaped compact (because of Fluid shape) and don't take a risk (because of defensive mentality)?

I just don't see a link between gaps and mentality.

[alanschu14]

4 hours ago, woland said:

Hello everyone,

could someone explain, why defensive mentality and fluid shape work togehter bad? What is wrong, if my player will be shaped compact (because of Fluid shape) and don't take a risk (because of defensive mentality)?

I just don't see a link between gaps and mentality.

I've never tried it but one thing to keep in mind is that a defensive mentality is also much narrower, so it could result in a clump all in the middle maybe?

As usually it'd probably depend on roles and whatnot?  Just spit balling here

[herne79]

4 hours ago, woland said:

Hello everyone,

could someone explain, why defensive mentality and fluid shape work togehter bad? What is wrong, if my player will be shaped compact (because of Fluid shape) and don't take a risk (because of defensive mentality)?

I just don't see a link between gaps and mentality.

It's not "bad".  That's not what Rashidi said.

He's talking about risk.  The Defensive mentality is low risk.  The Fluid team shape increases creative freedom for your players which adds risk from that perspective.  So on the one hand you are using something low risk but on the other something else fairly high risk.  Can that be made to work?  Yes it can, but at the same time you could just simplify things and keep risk on an even keel by combining low risk mentalities with low risk team shapes (or high risk with high risk).

[Rashidi]

7 hours ago, herne79 said:

It's not "bad".  That's not what Rashidi said.

He's talking about risk.  The Defensive mentality is low risk.  The Fluid team shape increases creative freedom for your players which adds risk from that perspective.  So on the one hand you are using something low risk but on the other something else fairly high risk.  Can that be made to work?  Yes it can, but at the same time you could just simplify things and keep risk on an even keel by combining low risk mentalities with low risk team shapes (or high risk with high risk).

Exactly. Couldn't have said it better myself.

This game is all about managing risk. Elements in the game allow you to throttle the risk tolerance in a game so that you can create more chances. One also needs to remember that going Attacking doesn't necessarily mean you create better chances. In fact one could argue the best chances are made on defensive mentality, since this is low risk. In other words, a team will make sure they can pass the ball around, accurately. When you go attacking a team will take riskier chances, they may try to attempt an ambitious through ball when its better to pass the ball around and work out an opportunity. Only the manager knows how much risk he should be willing to take. And this all boils down to the player roles/duties and the type of system you are playing.

Take a 442 for example. One could set it up with attacking wingers, one holding mid on support one attacking mid an two attacking strikers. Then you go choose defensive mentality.  The mentality says low risk, but your choice of roles and duties runs counter to what you are trying to do, you have players all bombing forward forcing your team to take the low risk option to get the ball to them, in this case hoof the ball. Why? There is no safe option nearby to pass the ball to. Ultimately the decision of what mentality/shape you should take is secondary to your system and the roles and duties you have laid out.

[woland]

13 hours ago, herne79 said:

It's not "bad".  That's not what Rashidi said.

He's talking about risk.  The Defensive mentality is low risk.  The Fluid team shape increases creative freedom for your players which adds risk from that perspective.  So on the one hand you are using something low risk but on the other something else fairly high risk.  Can that be made to work?  Yes it can, but at the same time you could just simplify things and keep risk on an even keel by combining low risk mentalities with low risk team shapes (or high risk with high risk).

Thanks for the answer.

But I though, that using of instruction with similar effect just multiples this effect. And balance is reached by counter instructions. For examples, if we have Very Fluid formation, it would be bad idea to add "Roam from position", because of too much roaming. So, if i want to have predictable risk, i should have instruction with high risk and instructions, that lowering this risk.

In another words. Consider following. Mentalities, Standard is 0 risk. Attacking has risk + 2, Defensive has - 2. Shapes, Highly Strucutured has risk - 2, Flexible has risk 0. Very Fluid has risk + 2. So, from my point of view, it is looks more balanced to combine Atacking  mentality and Structured shape, because risk remain 0. And if we will use Atacking with Very fluid risk will be equals to 4. And it is not looks like keeping risk an even keel:)

Where am I wrong?

Thanks in advance.

[herne79]

I understand your confusion.

If mentality and team shape affected the same areas of risk, you'd be correct - one could be used to cancel out the other.  But they don't.

Mentality affects such areas as defensive line, pressing, tempo, width, passing and so on.  Team Shape affects creative freedom and vertical compactness.  Thus it's too simplistic to say "attacking risk +2, highly structured risk -2 = 0 risk" because they are inherently different.

If you want to reduce attacking risk +2 (to use your example) you need to look at team instructions, or change mentality.

[alinp]

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this is more akin to the principles of Risk Management, hence it's probably more appropriate to number 1 to 5, (Def/Very Structure being 1's & Attacking/Very Fluid 5's - deliberately ignoring the Mentality extremes).

In Risk Management, you would multiply your likelihood and your impact to establish your risk, so using the same principles, you'd multiply you Mentality score by your Shape score to get your playing risk.  The "neutral" point would be Standard/Flexible (both 3's) giving a Risk of 9 - above that (all other things being equal, which they're not, but for the sake of argument they are) you're more likely to score, but also be scored against and visa versa.  Where you set yourself is (as I think the whole point of this is) at the level of Risk you're comfortable with.

[2calvin]

Can I get some hints or tips on how to play against the top teams? At home and away

This is where I usually lose the title. My record against 99/100 teams is very good, but Juve inevitably do the double over me, effectively starting the season 6 points ahead, then you add in tough trips to Roma, Milan, Lazio

Main problems include keeping clean sheets, being pinned back into our defensive third and struggling to relieve pressure

More often than not I use a flat 442. Is the formation straight away a problem? or just the roles I am selecting?

Away from home - is control or attacking a complete no-no? Because they are probably control/attacking also. What about at home?

I'm Napoli myself so I have good defenders, midfielders, attackers

[2calvin]

On 19/11/2016 at 14:30, 2calvin said:

Can I get some hints or tips on how to play against the top teams? At home and away

This is where I usually lose the title. My record against 99/100 teams is very good, but Juve inevitably do the double over me, effectively starting the season 6 points ahead, then you add in tough trips to Roma, Milan, Lazio

Main problems include keeping clean sheets, being pinned back into our defensive third and struggling to relieve pressure

More often than not I use a flat 442. Is the formation straight away a problem? or just the roles I am selecting?

Away from home - is control or attacking a complete no-no? Because they are probably control/attacking also. What about at home?

I'm Napoli myself so I have good defenders, midfielders, attackers

@Rashidi

[Rashidi]

17 hours ago, 2calvin said:

@Rashidi

This is a long question I will do a video and explain it.

 

Episode 6 & & will address your questions. I don't want to write it up cos its already written up in this thread on what I do home and away

[James9]

Hi Rashidi I would like to get some tips on setting up a successful 4231 that I can use home and away. I think my main problem is selecting the corrrect roles and duties. I also like the idea of starting with a less risky mentality like Standard and then change if I need to. I also like the structured team shape. I like starting with structured and if I find out that I need more bodies I tend to go to Flexible and then Fluid if I still need more bodies joining in transitions.  I tend to change to control if I need to take more risk and I also go attacking if I need to get a goal back. 

I am just trying to watch your videos and learn from you. 

I am very confused with the roles and duties to use in the 4231 wide I tend to go with one Attack duty in my front 4 and that is my striker who is set to either DLF A or Complete Forward Attack depending on who is playing. I have one of the best number 10 (Mesut Ozil) so I tend to have is my main Playmaker. I will then balance my midfield with CM S and CM D. The CMS has the freedom to try risky passses but the CMD keeps it simple. 

The full backs are on Standard Support duties 

It sounds strange using structured in a top heavy formation but I try and watch games see how we are doing and then change if I need more players moving up to help the front 4 or if they become too isolated. 

Playing with a top team I find that most teams do not over commit so sometimes I have to move from Standard to Control + Fluid push higher up Nd work ball into box to try and camp in their half.

Would you ever drop the D Line to deeper when playing a attacking mentality on Fluid if you came up against a top team with Lacey strikers 

Rashidi loving your videos and I hope you do the 4231. It seems that you are contemplating it from what you wrote on your YouTube video Episode 6.

When playing structured would it be better to use the playmaker in a deeper position for example DLP and then turn the AMC into a attacking midfielder. 

I really hope you do it 

[Rashidi]

I have made one 4231 it will be on episode 8, it isn';t my favorite system since it asks a lot of you backline. There is nothing wrong with using structured with a top heavy system. Even my 4231 is structured. The challenge lies in the players at your disposal. Wait till my show and then I will discuss it a bit more. Feeling a bit under the weather now battling a cold and trying to finish the first season, to be honest when looking at the roles, just ask yourself who should come down to defend

[James9]

6 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

I have made one 4231 it will be on episode 8, it isn';t my favorite system since it asks a lot of you backline. There is nothing wrong with using structured with a top heavy system. Even my 4231 is structured. The challenge lies in the players at your disposal. Wait till my show and then I will discuss it a bit more. Feeling a bit under the weather now battling a cold and trying to finish the first season, to be honest when looking at the roles, just ask yourself who should come down to defend

It isn't my favourite system either but I have Mesut Ozil and I do not know what other role I can give him the guy apart from playing him as a number 10 in the 4231 system. I prefer 3 midfield systems like 4312 or 433. Even a 442 but with Ozil he seems to force me into a 4231. Hope you get well soon and I am looking forward to episode 8. Will it be up today. 

[Jungztar]

On 24/11/2016 at 02:51, Rashidi said:

This is a long question I will do a video and explain it.

 

Episode 6 & & will address your questions. I don't want to write it up cos its already written up in this thread on what I do home and away

Excellent episode..... It was a nice recap of what you've been doing. Keep up the great work!

I can only urge people to watch the youtube series - It really answers most of the questions being raised in the threads. It's all about balancing your roles and identifying your weak spots and making sure you have enough cover vs. strength in attack.

[James9]

29 minutes ago, Jungztar said:

Excellent episode..... It was a nice recap of what you've been doing. Keep up the great work!

I can only urge people to watch the youtube series - It really answers most of the questions being raised in the threads. It's all about balancing your roles and identifying your weak spots and making sure you have enough cover vs. strength in attack.

I agree the last video was a real tutoring session. I made me understand roles and duties a bit better even though I still struggle sometimes with the roles and duties in my 4231 wide. I now understand player attributes better and how this affects everything. Playing as Arsenal I understand that my right flank is quite weak because I have Walcott as a Winger who does not have the best attributes for coming back and offering support. So now I set him to attack and leave Bellerin on support and make sure I have my most mobile defender playing as DRC and my CMD playing on the left of the midfield two. I am still working on the left side because with Monreal and Sanchez it works because Sanchez has good attributes for helping out in defence butI also play a CMS in that side. When Sanchez does not play on the left I have to think how to cover up the left flank from getting exposed. 

The video has been really good this is what most of us on the forums have been waiting for. Keep it up you do not know what a difference you are making to everyone. 

[sgevolker]

1 hour ago, Jungztar said:

Excellent episode..... It was a nice recap of what you've been doing. Keep up the great work!

I can only urge people to watch the youtube series - It really answers most of the questions being raised in the threads. It's all about balancing your roles and identifying your weak spots and making sure you have enough cover vs. strength in attack.

Hi, where can I find this episode?

[Jungztar]

8 hours ago, sgevolker said:

Hi, where can I find this episode?

You find the episode on Bust the Net youtube channel..... It is the latest Torino Diaries

[James9]

Rashidi it might bee too late to ask but I know you would be doing a video on the 4231 for your Torino diaries. I know in Italy many teams do not play with a player in the AMC STRATA. Sometimes I struggle to figure out how to deal with these type of players especially when I am playing with a 4231 formation because there is no player in the DMC position the defence seems to struggle with controlling such a player in the space. 

Also when playing with a top side like Arsenal naturally most of the other teams will play very cautious and not over commit men forward.

 I was watching  Episode 6 of Torino diaries and you explained what you would do if you wanted to break down a team. Because I already know that most of the teams in the league apart from Liverpool, Chelsea Man Utd, Man City and Tottenham will probably play very cautious, would you recommend starting on Control + Structured and then increase to Fluid and make the TI changes needed to break them down.

[James9]

Rashidi just watching your episode 6 video again I have just now notice that you mentioned going to attacking + fluid and also playing with a deep d Line. did you still instruct your front 3 to close down more even with a deep d Line. I was thinking that with a deep defensive line  and the front instructed to press more it would cause gaps to appear because the front 3 will be pressing but the ray of players will be sat deep in a deep defensive line. 

[Rashidi]

I was playing with a high block upfront and a medium press in midfield and defence.

The AI appeared to look structured to me, I could tell that by the number of times their lone striker had to wait for support. 

So I told the team to drop the dline and isolate them even more.

[gordo179]

Huge fan and avid reader of both you and Cleon's work. Learnt a lot about the team shape and mentality from both your blogs and comments. However, from time to time I come across another tactic with different rationalities and decision-making process. One of these is the gegen-pressing/counter-pressing tactic as developed by "Strikerless" which u can find here: https://strikerless.com/2015/11/19/counter-pressing-in-fm16/

In that same vein, a viable universal football tactic has been put forward by Ozil to the Arsenal: 

1) I thought a gegen-pressing team needs to be compact for eg. Barcelona are compact such that supporting and options are nearby to be passed to... Why does Strikerless have his width options the widest possible? Is this because a "Very Fluid" team shape means a compact shape already and the "Widest" width is to ensure that there is space for players to work and pass around with? Some readers asked him this question and he replied that the Width setting he sets applies for when he is attacking and not when he is defending. I'm not sure this is correct. 

2) Why is tempo set at Higher when I commonly read that possession football (gegen-pressing is a form of possession football done effectively by Klopp at Dortmund and Guardiola at Barca and Bayern Munich) = patient, slow passing game? Therefore, shouldn't the tempo be lower? 

3) Strikerless advocates that for gegen-pressing to work, shape should be top heavy so that u have enough bodies to press the opposition back line in the opposition's half. I can see how this applies at Dortmund as they play a 4-2-3-1 but then how did Barca and Bayern do it when Guardiola prefers to play a 4-1-2-2-1/4-3-3/4-5-1 which is more or less a balanced formation, normally with a defensive midfield triangle? 

I look forward to hearing from you @Rashidi and @Cleon

Thank you! 

 

 

 

 

 

[Rashidi]

Width applies only in attack. Without seeing the tactic I reckon he wanted more of the play to go down the flanks in attack.

 I don't think any one manager has a specific tempo for all teams, Barca and Bayern played at different tempos when he managed them both

I agree that you need a top heavy system to play a gengen pressing style but you can achieve it with a 41221 a 433 and some versions of the 451. What you need to do is to set max close down settings on your front group. This is what I do in nearly all my games its called the High Block.

I do feel that the Gergen system can be achieved with less shouts

[James9]

7 hours ago, Rashidi said:

Width applies only in attack. Without seeing the tactic I reckon he wanted more of the play to go down the flanks in attack.

 I don't think any one manager has a specific tempo for all teams, Barca and Bayern played at different tempos when he managed them both

I agree that you need a top heavy system to play a gengen pressing style but you can achieve it with a 41221 a 433 and some versions of the 451. What you need to do is to set max close down settings on your front group. This is what I do in nearly all my games its called the High Block.

I do feel that the Gergen system can be achieved with less shouts

Can you also achieve it with a 4231 system. 

[gordo179]

7 hours ago, Rashidi said:

Width applies only in attack. Without seeing the tactic I reckon he wanted more of the play to go down the flanks in attack.

 I don't think any one manager has a specific tempo for all teams, Barca and Bayern played at different tempos when he managed them both

I agree that you need a top heavy system to play a gengen pressing style but you can achieve it with a 41221 a 433 and some versions of the 451. What you need to do is to set max close down settings on your front group. This is what I do in nearly all my games its called the High Block.

I do feel that the Gergen system can be achieved with less shouts

Thank you for your prompt response.

You can see his tactic on the strikerless url I pasted in my original post but I will paste the links to the image URLs for his tactics for your easier reference:

Attached is his tactic that I applied to the team I'm currently managing. He plays with a strikerless formation. Anyway, that's not the route I'm going. I'm going with a 4-3-3/4-1-2-2-1 fyi. I just wanted to show you the role he uses on the players. 

1) How do I translate his gegen-pressing teamprint onto my Chelsea for a 4-1-2-2-1? I used to play with 4-2-3-1 in FM15 but I felt that a 4-1-2-2-1 offers more stability and better for a possession based tactic. 

2) I've read somewhere before that in a more rigid/structured system, we should use more specialist roles and for a more fluid system, to use more generalist roles as specialist roles dont do much in a fluid system. What I don't understand is how a system say for eg like Very Fluid will affect the mentality of my two IFs. Just to give you an example to make it easier to answer my question:

- What's the difference between an IF (s) and IF (a) in Very Fluid system on a "Team Attacking mentality"?

- What's the difference between an IF (s) and IF (a) in Very Fluid system on " Team Control mentality"?

I thought that the fluid nature of the system meant that the personal mentality of the player didn't matter that much because the fluid nature of the system dictates that team mentality will overwrite player mentality. 

I'm basically unsure of when to set Hazard as IF (s) or IF (a) and the same goes for Willian, Kenedy, etc. 

[Rashidi]

Ok before we go any further...which type of pressing are you referring to? Gegen Pressing is not new. There are principally three styles you can apply. Sacchi, Pep or Klopp. Lets ignore LVGs one.

The goal of Counter Pressing, is to prevent another side from launching a counter. The 3 approaches do it differently.

Secondly is this for FM17 or 16?

[Rashidi]

Hmm there was a simple reason why that specialist/generalist note was done, in the days or yore, we had one mentality for all in very fluid, therefore we didn't want to have many players running around with different locked in roles that encouraged a split from the pattern. Today its a different matter altogether. You can have specialists role within a highly fluid system, it just requires you to pay a bit more attention since Creative Freedom got mixed into it. Those specialist roles sometimes have more creative freedom and some have no creative freedom. So you need to read the PIs of all the so called specialist roles to determine which ones you need. 

To make things easier, I just ignore specialist vs generalists. I have been known to use 11 generalists in a structured team. The difference between both shapes simply lies in how much more " out of the box" thinking you need for your team. One can safely argue that even a team in non league football can play a highly fluid system well. Since the side already has players with low CF, the higher shape settings may encourage them to try things they ordinarily wouldn't. Getiing them out of their comfort zones.  All you need to do when it comes down to shape is ask yourself this question. If I go on a lower shape setting, my players will need to move the ball around a bit further than usual, and there will be more space. Do I have enough players moving into open space for that? Is there anything I can do via roles to encourage that? 

When it comes to Highly Fluid settings, the reverse applies..how do I make space available to be exploited? How do I move the other team around so my players get space...see the subtle difference? 

The difference between IF(A) and (S) lies in the PIs that are locked. You can find out what these are in the game, the only difference in both mentalities is the kind of runs he is going to make since mentality is a risk barometer. He tries more things on a higher mentality than a lower one, and is willing to take more chances.

There is no overriding of team/individual mentalities in the game via shape, player mentality is affected by shape changes that's true, but there is more under the hood than that. Plus you should ask Guido since its his take on gegenpressing. He could have other requirements to make it work the way he does. I have different ways to achieve counter pressing in my games too, but its different from his

[yonko]

Rashidi,

I'm interested to learn from you how to create better space in more compact highly fluid shapes. Could you explain in a little more detail about that, please? Is it more about the duties in highly fluid shapes, while roles in more structured shapes?

Also, how would the three different pressing systems (Sacchi, Pep, Klopp) would be represented in FM instructions?

Thanks

[James9]

Rashidi in your addicted to fm blog you spoke about starting a game on defensive structured and then moving to Control structured if you still cannot beak down a side. Would you also start with defensive structured if you were playing with a top side like Arsenal or Chelsea?

From what I read on these forums when you play with a top side then most of the other teams will sit deep and not over commit players forward so not get opened up. 

Now if you are starting with defensive mentality would this not make it much harder to break these side downs because of playing with a mentality that has a low risk tolerance.

Would like to get your feedback on this 

[gordo179]

8 hours ago, Rashidi said:

Ok before we go any further...which type of pressing are you referring to? Gegen Pressing is not new. There are principally three styles you can apply. Sacchi, Pep or Klopp. Lets ignore LVGs one.

The goal of Counter Pressing, is to prevent another side from launching a counter. The 3 approaches do it differently.

Secondly is this for FM17 or 16?

- Looking at Pep and Klopp. I'm interested to understand and learn how it's done differently i.e. 433/4221 vs 4231

- FM16

7 hours ago, Rashidi said:

Hmm there was a simple reason why that specialist/generalist note was done, in the days or yore, we had one mentality for all in very fluid, therefore we didn't want to have many players running around with different locked in roles that encouraged a split from the pattern. Today its a different matter altogether. You can have specialists role within a highly fluid system, it just requires you to pay a bit more attention since Creative Freedom got mixed into it. Those specialist roles sometimes have more creative freedom and some have no creative freedom. So you need to read the PIs of all the so called specialist roles to determine which ones you need. 

To make things easier, I just ignore specialist vs generalists. I have been known to use 11 generalists in a structured team. The difference between both shapes simply lies in how much more " out of the box" thinking you need for your team. One can safely argue that even a team in non league football can play a highly fluid system well. Since the side already has players with low CF, the higher shape settings may encourage them to try things they ordinarily wouldn't. Getiing them out of their comfort zones.  All you need to do when it comes down to shape is ask yourself this question. If I go on a lower shape setting, my players will need to move the ball around a bit further than usual, and there will be more space. Do I have enough players moving into open space for that? Is there anything I can do via roles to encourage that? 

When it comes to Highly Fluid settings, the reverse applies..how do I make space available to be exploited? How do I move the other team around so my players get space...see the subtle difference? 

The difference between IF(A) and (S) lies in the PIs that are locked. You can find out what these are in the game, the only difference in both mentalities is the kind of runs he is going to make since mentality is a risk barometer. He tries more things on a higher mentality than a lower one, and is willing to take more chances.

There is no overriding of team/individual mentalities in the game via shape, player mentality is affected by shape changes that's true, but there is more under the hood than that. Plus you should ask Guido since its his take on gegenpressing. He could have other requirements to make it work the way he does. I have different ways to achieve counter pressing in my games too, but its different from his

1) Ok, I think I kind of understand the difference... so train of thought would go as follows:

For lower shape settings = less compact team = more space to exploit. What roles can I change to exploit those spaces? 

For higher shape settings = more compact team = less space to exploit. What (mentality/roles?) can I change to create space to be exploited? 

2) Yep, I understand the difference b/w IF(A) and (S)  in that the PIs are locked but I was just confused/unsure about how much is changed from the overall team mentality imposed on them. Maybe I didnt explain myself clearly. For eg. What is the difference between:

- an IF(A) on a team with Very Fluid on control or even balanced team mentality 

VS 

- an IF(S) on a team with Very Fluid on Attacking team mentality? 

Do they end up playing the same way because the personal mentalities and team mentalities cancel each other out?