Loosing something during 2nd Half

[all4everdragon]

Hi guys,

I consider this a minor issue but you might also have it and with the help from who knows best maybe it has a solution. Did you ever noticed your team is dominating most matches until half time, with a good possession, good amount of shots and winning and during the 2nd half of those matches it's like your loosing control of the match ? Possession starts dropping, shots start dropping, players becoming uninterested ? I find this issue a lot and I was wondering if it's something with me or any other issue. And let me clear I'm not complaining abou winning, I'm undefeated at the league and at 1st place at Champions League also undedeated.

The following ss are an example:

The match at half-time:

At 40 minutes possession was at 64%, in 5 minutes I had 4 players becoming complacent and possession droped to 60%.

Opponent's formation squad, still with no changes since the beginning.

Winning and suddenly I have players frustrated, 3 of them and 2 more complacent (and 1 more that seems hurt). What explanation is there for my players being frustrated ????

At 76 minutes we scored another, I still have 4 players complacent and possession was never recovered to 64% like most of 1st half. Maybe my players are tired, but then checking the other team stats they're players have a lower physical condition than mine.

My tactic and final result

So why does a team that dominates the match during the 1st half starts loosing possession, reducing shots, players becoming complacent and frustrated. I use lectures before and during matches, there's even situations where I lecture a substitute and he has a good reaction and as soon he starts playing becomes complacent. What I am doing wrong ?

[Cleon]

Was you really that dominat though? Sure you had possession and shots but the shot quality is poor it seems as you had less than 50% on target in the first half and in the second half you was even poorer in terms of on target.

You also seem to focus on what you did wrong but what happens if you did everything right yet the opposition got their game right even when you scored another? Or maybe they made some kind of change that you haven't picked up on and it stopped you playing a high possession game?

Or it could just be a case of you ending games with players with really low condition due to the high tempo game you play. They tire in the second half, you can't expect to play high tempo or a high closing down game for 90 minutes without it impacting the players fitness and concentration levels in the second half of games.

[all4everdragon]

Yeah shot accuracy was indeed low but does that have an influence on players becoming complacent ??? It might have more logic players being complacent and because of this shot accuracy turning low, right ? But until 40 minutes they were all calm, ok.

As for changes, either the opponent sets a different tactic (it's rare but it happens and it was not the case in this case) or change roles and duties (much more frequently, but in this match they didn't and in other matches I try to balance my team whenever the opponent changes some role or duty). As for low condition, it could be also a reason but the thing is -as the screenshot shows - the opponent players were with levels below my own players. And it makes sense, a player gets a lot more tired chasing the ball than passing it.

[baddragon62]

I am interested in this too - I have noticed that when my side is going well, any substitute I bring on is almost immediately complacent. I have tried most pre sub team talk options but to no avail.

As a manager, how can you turn the onfield dynamics about? Is there something that can be done to shake up your players or are you simply forced to watch the morale of the team decline?

[all4everdragon]

That's another issue I wrote about in the 1st post. How come a player about to come in into the match has a good reaction when I give him a lecture and 1 or 2 minutes in the match is already complacent or not interested ???

To complete my last post, I thought Retain Possession TI reduces Tempo, so I'm playing a Control Mentality, ok, it has by default a little higher tempo but Retain Possession would decrease it, right ? So it wouldn't a high tempo passing all over the 90 minutes.

[Dr. Hook]

But look at the condition of your players at the 76 minute- for a full-time professional side, they are pretty low.

[Kamakazeee]

But look at the condition of your players at the 76 minute- for a full-time professional side, they are pretty low.

Think you right on this part Dr Hook, as if you see his team instructions he's got pressing on very much, for the full game. Surely this would make his players tired? Effectively reducing the quality they have towards the closing of the match? Maybe I'm wrong, not sure. Just a thought.

[all4everdragon]

My players are always below 100%, 95-96% and that condition is always at those levels at the last 15 minutes, even when I use a Lower Tempo TI. Training issue ? I don't know, I use a Medium Intensity General Training (Balance Focus) and 30% Match Preparation Training with a rest day after every match.

And the issue I'm focusing presents itself right before half-time or as soon the 2nd half starts, not at the last 15 minutes of the match.

[all4everdragon]

Think you right on this part Dr Hook, as if you see his team instructions he's got pressing on very much, for the full game. Surely this would make his players tired? Effectively reducing the quality they have towards the closing of the match? Maybe I'm wrong, not sure. Just a thought.

And what about opponent players being more tired than mine ? Ok, my players are tired at the last 15 minutes and this makes them not being able to retain possession. And the opponent players, more tired than mine, with worse attributes than mine have that capacity ??? :confused:

[Dr. Hook]

My players are always below 100%, 95-96% and that condition is always at those levels at the last 15 minutes, even when I use a Lower Tempo TI. Training issue ? I don't know, I use a Medium Intensity General Training (Balance Focus) and 30% Match Preparation Training with a rest day after every match.

And the issue I'm focusing presents itself right before half-time or as soon the 2nd half starts, not at the last 15 minutes of the match.

Well, keep in mind too that at half-time the AI gets a team-talk which might send them out of the gate fast and grab the momentum; also, the AI will often change tactics if it is losing, so come out for the second half with a different look. Perhaps a change in formation, but definitely a change in TI's and mentality. Beyond this, you really need to figure out what is happening on the field: what is the cause of your problems? Are you getting a lot of passes intercepted? Where are the opponents finding space to get passes, where are your turnovers happening etc. It is certainly something the AI is doing and you are not responding to.

[Kamakazeee]

Then I would look at your team talks, it isn't always good to just praise the team and look for green rows across the board. Think of the best manager ever in terms of getting responses from players, a stereotypical Alex Ferguson, what would he do? Challenge your players, tell them whilst there good, there's always room for improvement. That's how I play anyways, very rare Im over happy with how there playing

[Kamakazeee]

Plus like Dr hook said, the AI are changing tactics etc as much as you. If you've spent the first half constantly closing down, maybe they've seen gaps due too this? The AI isn't just gonna sit and let you have your own way.

[herne79]

Personally I feel there is a little too much of players looking complacent - it seems to happen more if you are playing as a big side against a smaller team and you start winning by a couple of goals.

Even if you have players looking complacent in the first half, you tell them (assertively) at half time not to become complacent and they "seem to gain focus" - as soon as the 2nd half starts they are still looking complacent. Even professional players with high determination. Not a big problem as the match is always won, but it does seem overkill sometimes. I had high hopes for the new in game touchline talks to help resolve this issue, but they don't do anything.

Hell, I even played a CL Final the other week and with the score at 0-0 after just 5 minutes I had a player "looking complacent" and that same player had "looked motivated" after my pre-match pep talk, which is just silly.

I'm really not sure if some of these emotional aspects of the game are always working as intended.

[bieritarier]

If the AI is inferior and doesn'T see a way back into the match they will play deep and play keep ball, which is why your possession drops. I haven't quite cracked that myself, and it will be difficult with pressing up front seemingly never aggressive enough to make them punt it long. putting your strikers on close down much more and asking them to tackle harder could help. with a 2-0 lead though I rarely care about the AI playing keep ball for a bit. in fact, I tend to drop deeper myself and win the ball back deeper so that my own attackers can run at the deep defense, handed out a fair few 6 and 7-0 thrashings that way.

[all4everdragon]

Well, keep in mind too that at half-time the AI gets a team-talk which might send them out of the gate fast and grab the momentum; also, the AI will often change tactics if it is losing, so come out for the second half with a different look. Perhaps a change in formation, but definitely a change in TI's and mentality. Beyond this, you really need to figure out what is happening on the field: what is the cause of your problems? Are you getting a lot of passes intercepted? Where are the opponents finding space to get passes, where are your turnovers happening etc. It is certainly something the AI is doing and you are not responding to.

As posted, I have always several open boxes during matches and there are always some movement in the zones of action. ok fine. The thing is I do not know what the problem is when I have my players motivated before the match and their body language is fine during the 1st half and then I lecture them at half time, they have a good reaction, motivated, 2nd half begins and they start becoming complacent or not interested. So, although I will never do things completely right, in tactical terms, the problem is more mental than tactical. As an example, what might be tactical wrong when I lecture a substitute that shows motivated and once is in the match he becomes complacent ??? :confused:

[all4everdragon]

Then I would look at your team talks, it isn't always good to just praise the team and look for green rows across the board. Think of the best manager ever in terms of getting responses from players, a stereotypical Alex Ferguson, what would he do? Challenge your players, tell them whilst there good, there's always room for improvement. That's how I play anyways, very rare Im over happy with how there playing

I do challenge them as an example when I'm wining 1-0 at half time I get mad with them and the reaction is Player looks motivated for all of them .

[all4everdragon]

If the AI is inferior and doesn'T see a way back into the match they will play deep and play keep ball, which is why your possession drops. I haven't quite cracked that myself, and it will be difficult with pressing up front seemingly never aggressive enough to make them punt it long. putting your strikers on close down much more and asking them to tackle harder could help. with a 2-0 lead though I rarely care about the AI playing keep ball for a bit. in fact, I tend to drop deeper myself and win the ball back deeper so that my own attackers can run at the deep defense, handed out a fair few 6 and 7-0 thrashings that way.

That's what I also find curious. Ok they drop and play deep and keep ball, but how does a team with a lower physical condition than mine has the ability to do that ??

[bieritarier]

That's what I also find curious. Ok they drop and play deep and keep ball, but how does a team with a lower physical condition than mine has the ability to do that ??

pinging the ball around is a lot less tiring than chasing the ball. AI teams make too few mistakes though, especially the ones with really low quality players. As said, I'd like to give you some advice how to win the ball back from them more easily but it'S an area of the game that still bugs me as well.

[all4everdragon]

pinging the ball around is a lot less tiring than chasing the ball. AI teams make too few mistakes though, especially the ones with really low quality players. As said, I'd like to give you some advice how to win the ball back from them more easily but it'S an area of the game that still bugs me as well.

That's exactly what I said, there's a lot of matches that at the end of the 1st half I have 65-70% possession and although my players can be a little tired, the players from the other team are even more because moving the ball around is a lot less tiring than chasing it. The odd thing is players getting complacent and not interested and then possession starts droping.

[bieritarier]

you have 65-70% possession at the half because the game may not yet be out of reach so they try to play a lot of balls over the top from the defense, which you win back easily. Once the AI trys something else, which is go contain and keep the ball you have a really hard time to win the ball back quickly enough to avoid a drop in possession it has little to do with players being complacent, that just adds to the problem a little.

[all4everdragon]

you have 65-70% possession at the half because the game may not yet be out of reach so they try to play a lot of balls over the top from the defense, which you win back easily. Once the AI trys something else, which is go contain and keep the ball you have a really hard time to win the ball back quickly enough to avoid a drop in possession it has little to do with players being complacent, that just adds to the problem a little.

That's the point, I'm talking about a worse team than mine - and most teams are in the league - that during the 1st half the best they can do is to sniff the ball, so they're supposed to be more tired than my team - which they are - because they were chasing the ball and because their players have worse attributes. So, what's the logic behind a worse team with worse players, more tired going to contain and having the capacity to keep the ball ???

[all4everdragon]

feeling the need of Hand of God here

[bieritarier]

That's the point, I'm talking about a worse team than mine - and most teams are in the league - that during the 1st half the best they can do is to sniff the ball, so they're supposed to be more tired than my team - which they are - because they were chasing the ball and because their players have worse attributes. So, what's the logic behind a worse team with worse players, more tired going to contain and having the capacity to keep the ball ???

I'm not saying it is realistic but it is what happens. they go contain, they put a lot of players on defend duty and unless you commit a lot of players forward to find the right way to press them they have the numbers back there. not hard to play keep ball since pressing in FM has been atrocious for year - players go for the direct line in the press becoming totally unaware of the other players around. IRL players try to press in a way that puts pressure on the guy on the ball + takes away passing angles.

[all4everdragon]

I'm not saying it is realistic but it is what happens. they go contain, they put a lot of players on defend duty and unless you commit a lot of players forward to find the right way to press them they have the numbers back there. not hard to play keep ball since pressing in FM has been atrocious for year - players go for the direct line in the press becoming totally unaware of the other players around. IRL players try to press in a way that puts pressure on the guy on the ball + takes away passing angles.

ok something we can expect to be improved maybe.

Here's another example. At half-time these guys are taking a complete beating, possession was at 72-74% almost the entire 45 minutes, dropped a little the last few minutes.

Now, what I find intriging is that they passed the all time chasing the ball but their physical condition is the same as my players :confused: This can't be right.

Now, at half-time I lectured my players and the reaction was they gain concentration except for two players, one lost a little trust and the other turned nervous. For the 2nd half I bet the following:

- Number of my team shots will be a lot lower;

- Players will become complacent;

- Possession will drop 6 to 8 points;

[all4everdragon]

Half-time lecture

[all4everdragon]

Like a said, shots ? dropped to below half of the shots from 1st half, possession dropped 3 points, all 3 subs turned complacent as soon they were in the match (why ??? why does this happens ???), player's condition from both teams near the same. :confused:

[HUNT3R]

Shots dropped because possession dropped.

Condition will depend on distance covered, if I'm not mistaken.

As said earlier, the opponent goes very defensive, knocking the ball around in defence and you're not winning it back quickly enough to have the same possession levels. If you watch the game, you'll see this happening.

[Cleon]

Plus you can't expect your team to play the exact same way for the full 90 minutes. You can't judge the first half against the second half because there could be many variables and the opposition are likely to change things around quite a lot, especially when chasing a game. You seem to have fallen into the trap that many do and base what you talk about on stats rather than giving those stats context and focusing on the how and why its happening. Stats isolated like you use them are misleading, you've used them to say you get worse in second halves of games and someone else could quite easily use those stats to show that nothing really changed. It's the context that the stats are used in that are important.

You seem fixated on the oppositions condition too, why? Just because you have lots of possession and shots doesn't mean the opposition are running about chasing the game. In fact in the screenshots you've posted so far it's highly likely you've pinned them back deep in their own half so they'll be fine condition wise as they aren't actually running about much at all.

[HUNT3R]

That's if they're even "chasing" the ball at all! That big difference in quality might just be enough for them to want to sit deep and narrow, waiting for you, rather than chasing after the ball.

[RTHerringbone]

I'm quite happy that examples like this actually show a combination of things - the fact that the AI is adapting and it is making a difference, the fact that complacency may have a tangible impact on performance etc. etc. One half of 3-0 does not equal two halves at 6-0; and that should be welcomed.

[Rashidi]

I'm quite happy that examples like this actually show a combination of things - the fact that the AI is adapting and it is making a difference, the fact that complacency may have a tangible impact on performance etc. etc. One half of 3-0 does not equal two halves at 6-0; and that should be welcomed.

[Torskus77]

I'm quite happy that examples like this actually show a combination of things - the fact that the AI is adapting and it is making a difference, the fact that complacency may have a tangible impact on performance etc. etc. One half of 3-0 does not equal two halves at 6-0; and that should be welcomed.

I'd say it's pretty common in real life that when a team storms in to a big lead in the first half, it slows down second half. Of course sometimes teams go on to make a cricket score, but more often than not they play the game out. Not so long back my team Walsall went 3-0 up in the first half, with half n hour left we were hanging on for dear life at 3-2

[all4everdragon]

Plus you can't expect your team to play the exact same way for the full 90 minutes. You can't judge the first half against the second half because there could be many variables and the opposition are likely to change things around quite a lot, especially when chasing a game. You seem to have fallen into the trap that many do and base what you talk about on stats rather than giving those stats context and focusing on the how and why its happening. Stats isolated like you use them are misleading, you've used them to say you get worse in second halves of games and someone else could quite easily use those stats to show that nothing really changed. It's the context that the stats are used in that are important.

You seem fixated on the oppositions condition too, why? Just because you have lots of possession and shots doesn't mean the opposition are running about chasing the game. In fact in the screenshots you've posted so far it's highly likely you've pinned them back deep in their own half so they'll be fine condition wise as they aren't actually running about much at all.

I know Cleon, that would be irrealistic, not expecting at all to perform the same way during 90 minutes. Nothing like that.

The clarification I'm looking is more about players getting complacent as soon they're into the match when they had a motivated / happy reaction when lectured. This happens always with substitutes: players is lectured, player reacts with motivation, player goes into the match and get complacent. So, it's an issue that has nothing to do with stats.

And as for the opposition being in fine condition, because they are confortable seating deep, it's not the case because they're condition is below my players that's why I asked how can a weaker team with poorer condition after 45 or 60 or 75 minutes start moving the ball around ??? I don't find it realistic at all And as this happens when I start having a few players complacent or not interested, I made the link that the two issues might be linked.

[all4everdragon]

I'm quite happy that examples like this actually show a combination of things - the fact that the AI is adapting and it is making a difference, the fact that complacency may have a tangible impact on performance etc. etc. One half of 3-0 does not equal two halves at 6-0; and that should be welcomed.

Yes and indeed complacency should have an impact, the problem is why the player (mainly substitutes and any of them) becomes complacent when he had a motivated reaction. And any other indication of player's body language should also have an impact on opponents when they're loosing by 3 or 4, even more if they're team is a lot weaker.