Tactics for a strong, fast, tall, physical team?

[Hurball]

I'm in my 5th season now and have established a mid-to-low table foothold in the country's top division with a small budget. I'm doing okay with my current tactic:

------AF-------

W------------W

---BWM--AP---

------DM-------

WB-LD-CD-WB

------GK-------

I play low tempo, retain possession football. With closing down often and tight marking as the only other team instructions. And it gets me good results (except against the top top teams, who destroy me)

The "problem" is, is that after reading up on tactics I have no idea how this formation and team instructions works for me. My players have:

Poor mental skills (with the exception of the DM)

Poor passing (one of the worst in the league)

Poor first touch

Poor decisions (worst in the league)

Poor leadership (worst in the league)

So how does retain possession and low tempo work for me at all? Surely I should give the ball away constantly?

Essentially my purchasing has created a team with awesome physical attributes (my WBs, Wingers and striker have incredible pace, stamina, strength etc, whilst my centre backs are all tall, strong, with great jumping reach and heading). This is to the detriment of it's mental attributes. Technical stuff is okay but passing and first touch are awful across the board.

I've tried to build a formation to suit my strengths (a counterattacking 5-3-2 (WB)) with direct passing and running at the defence but it's worked terribly. I want to start building a formation to suit my team better, especially using its pace well, but I'm a bit stuck. Any suggestions?

[smajliss]

Because direct passing sucks .. i would say that it is a team instruction for specific matches or match situations ... there is no team in the world who is first in league and uses long passing :-) ... your low tempo instruction lowers number of bad passing, because players has more time to deciding

[Cleon]

Because direct passing sucks .. i would say that it is a team instruction for specific matches or match situations ... there is no team in the world who is first in league and uses long passing :-) ... your low tempo instruction lowers number of bad passing, because players has more time to deciding

Long passing and direct passing are two completely different things, direct passing is not long passing. Saying direct passing sucks shows you have a lot still to learn about what the settings actually mean and do because you seem confused.

[Torskus77]

Some of my best tactics have been using a Direct style. Some great teams in real life have been direct too. I'd say the Treble winning Manchester United team played a pretty direct style. Brian Clough's Forest was another too.

I actually find the tikki takki tippy tappy stuff quite dull to watch at times.

[Hootieleece]

I generally play with a team like yours. Tall, fast, and strong. I look for decent passing and decision attributes(at least 8-10) I play with the Retain Possession shout, but NOT with lower Tempo. I also tend to play on Standard and Fluid with an Exploit the flanks shout. My wingers and Fullbacks have good crossing skills. This Allows lots of Crosses to my Strikers who are also Tall and fast and good headers.

With these shouts I tend to edge the possession stats and generally outshoot the opponent.

I also seem to get a decent amount of Longballs over a opponents "High" defensive line and this without direct passing.

I play a Wide 4-1-3-2

[smajliss]

Long passing and direct passing are two completely different things, direct passing is not long passing.

Only in your theories ... i would guess, that you have played FM when there was sliders ... was there a 2 kinds of sliders: one for setting of directness and one for length of passing ? NO. There was only one. So you can mark it as "two completely different things" but in is only one thing in FM.

[Jambo98]

Only in your theories ... i would guess, that you have played FM when there was sliders ... was there a 2 kinds of sliders: one for setting of directness and one for length of passing ? NO. There was only one. So you can mark it as "two completely different things" but in is only one thing in FM.

Take a look at the passing option directly above "go more direct" on the TI selection, then perhaps make an embarresing retraction

Real Madrid became European champions playing some of the most direct football you will ever see. Overcoming the short passing Bayern by quite a margin as i recall...........

[Cleon]

Only in your theories ... i would guess, that you have played FM when there was sliders ... was there a 2 kinds of sliders: one for setting of directness and one for length of passing ? NO. There was only one. So you can mark it as "two completely different things" but in is only one thing in FM.

You're still wrong, direct passing is not long passing. This is not a theory its a fact my friend

[smajliss]

Take a look at the passing option directly above "go more direct" on the TI selection, then perhaps make an embarresing retraction

Real Madrid became European champions playing some of the most direct football you will ever see. Overcoming the short passing Bayern by quite a margin as i recall...........

I said that direct passing is TI for specific match ! ... every match against Bayern is specific .. but Real Madrid did not played direct in 38 matches in Primera Division

OMG guys .. you really should check site http://www.whoscored.com ... for example: you can see that Real Madrid played 52 long balls against Granada (http://www.whoscored.com/Matches/862321/MatchReport) ... you can also see that Barcelona played 51 long balls against Rayo Vallecano (http://www.whoscored.com/Matches/862395/MatchReport) .. Barcelona and Real Madrid plays the same amount of long balls against weaker oppononents ! so whats wrong here ? :- ) Nothing, only your wrong theory that Real Madrid plays direct

[Cleon]

Long ball is not the same as direct. How can you not get it?

[johnnyyakuza78]

Thats basically what I've been trying to do with my Leeds team in this thread:

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/423671-Tony-Pulis-and-his-Stoke-Long-Ball-Anti-Footballers.

I think its possible to play this way with defensive/counter style.. the only thing I'd be worried about would be the decision making ability of your defenders if you went tight and defensive at the back.

[smajliss]

Long ball is not the same as direct. How can you not get it?

Because there is only one attribute of directness in FM .. or am I wrong ?

[johnnyyakuza78]

Long ball is not the same as direct. How can you not get it?

Because the way fm has worked in the past has been a slider from short passing to long passing, with direct in between.

[Cleon]

Because there is only one attribute of directness in FM .. or am I wrong ?

Eh? There is a short, direct and long passing setting in FM, each one is different.

Because the way fm has worked in the past has been a slider from short passing to long passing, with direct in between.

Exactly so direct passing isn't the same as long ball, it's always had its own option

[johnnyyakuza78]

well compared to short passing.. its longer though right!?

[Cleon]

well compared to short passing.. its longer though right!?

It can be yes, but that doesn't mean it's long ball like the person above says, so not really sure on the point you're trying to make? They're two completely different things.

To the OP - You should design a tactic that let's the players you have play as a team rather than trying to build a tactic to play to your strengths as that doesn't always translate to what's best for the team. There are plenty of threads about this (check the ones stickied at the top of the forum).

[johnnyyakuza78]

well they are both longer passing options that look to move the ball forward at the first opportunity. Thats correct right? Long ball is a more extreme version of direct football in that case?

If thats the case then saying they are entirely different is wrong as well.

[Cleon]

well they are both longer passing options that look to move the ball forward at the first opportunity. Thats correct right? Long ball is a more extreme version of direct football in that case?

If thats the case then saying they are entirely different is wrong as well.

No, direct passing can be short. It just means a forward pass really looking to go to the next phase of the attack. So if it's a defender who has the ball he'll look to pass it to a midfielder then the midfielder to the attacker. Long ball is hit it long in the hope one of your players can get hold of it and keep it until support arrives.

[johnnyyakuza78]

Ok I'm really just going by my understanding of how it works. But in general it increases passing length and tempo.. and long passing increases passing length and tempo too. Saying its completely different is just confusing for everyone.

[Pav_Makarov]

I always thought, that directness means how fast do you go from defending phase to attacking. If your formation is compact with little gaps between lines, transition is not going to include any long passing, right?

[Cleon]

Ok I'm really just going by my understanding of how it works. But in general it increases passing length and tempo.. and long passing increases passing length and tempo too. Saying its completely different is just confusing for everyone.

No, what's confusing is you and the other person saying false things about passing and making out its something that its not. That's where the real confusion comes into play

[johnnyyakuza78]

Thats how its described within the game, and within other places, such as 'guide for football manager'. If we are wrong then its because it is labelled poorly. So no need to act snide.

[Cleon]

Thats how its described within the game, and within other places, such as 'guide for football manager'. If we are wrong then its because it is labelled poorly. So no need to act snide.

Everything in FM is worded poorly, we all agree on that. I wasn't being snide either, you said I was being confusing. All I did was point out you was doing the same. No need to take thing personal

[smajliss]

Direct style of play is something different then direct passing !!! Direct style of play is set by mentality = so i if you use attacking mentality = you play direct style of football ... but this is not what I was talking about ... a I was talking about direct passing = this is about length of passing ... and I am saying that every big team plays short passing against weak teams .. you cant win 100 points in league when you will use direct passing - it is team instruction for specific matches and not for every game :-)

[RTHerringbone]

Direct style of play is something different then direct passing !!! Direct style of play is set by mentality = so i if you use attacking mentality = you play direct style of football ... but this is not what I was talking about ... a I was talking about direct passing = this is about length of passing ... and I am saying that every big team plays short passing against weak teams .. you cant win 100 points in league when you will use direct passing - it is team instruction for specific matches and not for every game :-)

I think language is the barrier here; you are just making confusing statements now and it's unclear if you are talking in FM terms or real life terms (which are entirely subjective).

" Direct style of play is set by mentality = so i if you use attacking mentality = you play direct style of football ". This isn't necessarily true at all. The tempo of an Attacking Mentality is higher than Standard (as an example), but the overall passing structure doesn't generally become more direct at all. The Attacking players will be more direct, but the defensive ones will play shorter than on Standard.

[johnnyyakuza78]

I think language is the barrier here; you are just making confusing statements now and it's unclear if you are talking in FM terms or real life terms (which are entirely subjective).

" Direct style of play is set by mentality = so i if you use attacking mentality = you play direct style of football ". This isn't necessarily true at all. The tempo of an Attacking Mentality is higher than Standard (as an example), but the overall passing structure doesn't generally become more direct at all. The Attacking players will be more direct, but the defensive ones will play shorter than on Standard.

Again this is information which isn't made clear within the game itself. In the game attacking mentality is described as 'fast paced and direct'.

[Pav_Makarov]

Again this is information which isn't made clear within the game itself. In the game attacking mentality is described as 'fast paced and direct'.

As I understand it, in-game explanations are simplified for new users, not to overcomplicate things, but let them dig the game through experience. Or this forum in my case.

[smajliss]

I think language is the barrier here; you are just making confusing statements now and it's unclear if you are talking in FM terms or real life terms (which are entirely subjective).

" Direct style of play is set by mentality = so i if you use attacking mentality = you play direct style of football ". This isn't necessarily true at all. The tempo of an Attacking Mentality is higher than Standard (as an example), but the overall passing structure doesn't generally become more direct at all. The Attacking players will be more direct, but the defensive ones will play shorter than on Standard.

It is not about passing structure. It is about defensive or attacking mentality of players. If the mentality is attacking = team plays direct football (not direct passing .. direct passing is set by team or individual instructions)

I see that there was confusion about direct passing and direct style of football, because these are different things. So I make it clear now:

direct,long passing = i mean length of passing (long is the more extreme option)

And what i have said in my first response ? I am saying that every strong team use short passing. Chelsea, Barcelona, Real Madrid, PSG, Bayern just every big team use short passing in most of they matches ...they use direct passing only in specific situations (defending before end of match, playing against strong opponent)

I dont believe that you can win, for example 35 matches in Premier League by using direct passing .. it is just not possible (if you can, i will be very impresed) ...I am playing Football Manager over 10 years and I know that I can get over 100 points in Premier League by using short passing - it is just standard way of how every strong team plays ... but if you are good manager, you know when you should use direct passing to trick your opponent (mourinho is very good in this)

[RTHerringbone]

OK, so that sounds like you are talking in pure, real-life footballing terms, in which case I can agree. Still not quite sure how it lead to such levels of confrontation when it was pointed out that "direct" in a Football Manager sense does not directly equate to long ball though :confused:

To get this back on track - opening poster - could you confirm what Duties you are using, and what you mean by "it's worked terribly"? Look beyond the results - why are things not clicking? Your formation has a few issues in terms of an isolated striker, no real central support for him and fairly one-dimensional wide play. What are the actual issues you are seeing?

[wwfan]

I'll try to clear this up a little.

Direct passing will, as Cleon says, move the ball quickly through the strata, i.e. defence -> midfield -> attack. Long balls will pretty much bypass the midfield strata, being defence -> attack.

The TC works on the assumption that a team playing safer football will try and clear their lines more quickly than a team playing more risky football. Likewise, safer teams will try and play 'keep ball' higher up the pitch instead of looking for risky passes, whereas those playing more risky football will use the defence as a possession base and play riskier passes in midfield and the final third. Consequently, default instructions have more direct passing in defence and shorter passing in attack in cautious strategies and shorter passing in defence and more direct passing in attack in aggressive strategies. More direct passing also encourages players to cross.

The TIs mediate this. A TI of shorter passing will decrease passing length of those playing direct passes by a far greater degree than it does for those playing shorter passes, and vice versa for more direct passes. The Shorter and More Direct TIs thus affect the whole team. There are other TIs that alter things further, either across the whole team of for specific strata:

• Pump Balls into Box: Long balls from the back two strata down the middle
  
• Clear Balls to Flanks: Long balls from the back two strata out wide
  
• Play Ball out of Defence: Very short passing in the back two strata
  
• Retain Possession: Privilege safe passes over risky ones (whole team)
  
• Go Route One: Launch it forward immediately (whole team)
  

As you can see, you can alter your passing strategy in multiple ways. You can play what would normally be a cautious strategy that gets the ball out of defence more directly and keeps it upfield and reverse it, making the players keep it deep (Play Ball out of Defence) and play more directly in attack (More Direct Passing). You can turn an aggressive tactic with a possession base into a direct one (More Direct Passing) or ultra direct one (Clear Balls to Flanks / Pump Balls into Box). You can also try tika-taka (Play Ball out of Defence, Shorter Passing, Retain Possession) or Crazy Gang style long-balls from the back. There's so much possibility in the TIs and strategies/mentalities, with pretty much any kind of passing pattern being possible.

To return to the OPs question, you almost certainly want to play with a high tempo, direct passing and early crossing to get the best out of a physical team. High Pressing and Hard Tackling will also help, but be prepared for a good few red cards over the course of a season.

[Hurball]

Thanks for all the responses - which actually hit on something I hadn't directly mentioned but have been a bit confused about in the new box system since the sliders - the difference between Long Ball and Direct Passing, which I've never been sure about really.

As for the initial request, I've tried a new tactic with the same 4-3-3 formation but with the following instructions:

Pass into Space (the poor passing may be a problem here, but I'm hoping it speeds up play and uses my team's pace)

Clear ball to Flanks & Exploit the Flanks (again, I want to exploit my team's pacey WBs and Wingers)

Run at Defence (good dribbling skills and pace)

Look for Overlap (obvious)

Whipped Crosses (my strikers aren't tall, so this should be better than lofted balls in)

Higher Tempo (not sure whether this is necessary. Is higher tempo solely passing-related, or does it affect how players defend and move off the ball, and dribble with it?)

Be More Expressive (again, not sure about this, may ditch it if I'm conceding possession massively)

I've also kept my team on Close Down More and Tighter Marking with Prevent Short GK Distribution. High workrates needed and stamina, but my squad's physical stats are more than enough to hassle the opposition for 90 mins.

So far I earned a good draw away at the second best team in the league, followed by a poor cup defeat to my bogey team. Will see how things pan out. I'm also considering changing the wingers to inside forwards, but this would require personnel changes since my players are set up for wingers.

[Hurball]

To get this back on track - opening poster - could you confirm what Duties you are using, and what you mean by "it's worked terribly"? Look beyond the results - why are things not clicking? Your formation has a few issues in terms of an isolated striker, no real central support for him and fairly one-dimensional wide play. What are the actual issues you are seeing?

My base formation does have those problems, but the results have been good despite it. My AP (playing in CM) gets forward as well as the opposite winger and striker which does help get men forward when needed. My forwards are my best players, which may have something to do with how well it works despite the apparent lack of support from the formation.

My 5-3-2 (WB) formation was the one I'd tried out and had the terrible results with. I watch full matches and when using it I barely kept hold of the ball and my two strikers never became involved at all. I had it as a counterattacking formation, with high pressing and a deep defensive line. Yet even with shoot on sight chosen I'd get only a handful of shots each time I tried it.

To return to the OPs question, you almost certainly want to play with a high tempo, direct passing and early crossing to get the best out of a physical team. High Pressing and Hard Tackling will also help, but be prepared for a good few red cards over the course of a season.

Thanks for that, I'm trying high tempo for now and have my defence hassling the opposition (without the hard tackling for now, since I'm getting a lot of bookings as it is). I'm trying Look for Overlap rather than Early Crosses at the moment. Direct Passing I'm really unsure about. I'm thinking it would clash with my desire to have my wingers and wing backs running at the opposition, and Clear Ball to Flanks should do a similar job for what I want?

[RTHerringbone]

I had it as a counterattacking formation, with high pressing and a deep defensive line. Yet even with shoot on sight chosen I'd get only a handful of shots each time I tried it.

Read back the bold bit, and see if you think it sounds logical.

It seems an unusual strategy to get your guys to sit deep and compact, but then to leave that defensive station to press like mad; whatever shape you had will be affected by that pressing. In general terms, you should sit deep and be neutral or passive in your pressing.

[Hurball]

Read back the bold bit, and see if you think it sounds logical.

It seems an unusual strategy to get your guys to sit deep and compact, but then to leave that defensive station to press like mad; whatever shape you had will be affected by that pressing. In general terms, you should sit deep and be neutral or passive in your pressing.

Good point - obvious when you put it like that.

I was kind of wanting my side to sit back but not let the opposition have all the possession in my own half, and then win it back quickly before breaking into more space than would be there if I played a higher defensive line. Guess the reality would be to sit deep and retain shape first and foremost, before going direct on the break.

[sebs]

I'll try to clear this up a little.

Direct passing will, as Cleon says, move the ball quickly through the strata, i.e. defence -> midfield -> attack. Long balls will pretty much bypass the midfield strata, being defence -> attack.

The TC works on the assumption that a team playing safer football will try and clear their lines more quickly than a team playing more risky football. Likewise, safer teams will try and play 'keep ball' higher up the pitch instead of looking for risky passes, whereas those playing more risky football will use the defence as a possession base and play riskier passes in midfield and the final third. Consequently, default instructions have more direct passing in defence and shorter passing in attack in cautious strategies and shorter passing in defence and more direct passing in attack in aggressive strategies. More direct passing also encourages players to cross.

The TIs mediate this. A TI of shorter passing will decrease passing length of those playing direct passes by a far greater degree than it does for those playing shorter passes, and vice versa for more direct passes. The Shorter and More Direct TIs thus affect the whole team. There are other TIs that alter things further, either across the whole team of for specific strata:

• Pump Balls into Box: Long balls from the back two strata down the middle
  
• Clear Balls to Flanks: Long balls from the back two strata out wide
  
• Play Ball out of Defence: Very short passing in the back two strata
  
• Retain Possession: Privilege safe passes over risky ones (whole team)
  
• Go Route One: Launch it forward immediately (whole team)
  

As you can see, you can alter your passing strategy in multiple ways. You can play what would normally be a cautious strategy that gets the ball out of defence more directly and keeps it upfield and reverse it, making the players keep it deep (Play Ball out of Defence) and play more directly in attack (More Direct Passing). You can turn an aggressive tactic with a possession base into a direct one (More Direct Passing) or ultra direct one (Clear Balls to Flanks / Pump Balls into Box). You can also try tika-taka (Play Ball out of Defence, Shorter Passing, Retain Possession) or Crazy Gang style long-balls from the back. There's so much possibility in the TIs and strategies/mentalities, with pretty much any kind of passing pattern being possible.

To return to the OPs question, you almost certainly want to play with a high tempo, direct passing and early crossing to get the best out of a physical team. High Pressing and Hard Tackling will also help, but be prepared for a good few red cards over the course of a season.

this post is so useful, why isn't this included in any instruction guide?!

[edtheguy]

this post is so useful, why isn't this included in any instruction guide?!

I agree completely!

The problem with the whole manual/guide issue - I think - is that SI have to walk a bit of a tightrope. I'm sure they don't want to make it so transparent that it can be boiled down to x+y=WIN (mostly). They want to keep people coming back to figure it out - and I'm OK with that, the problem solving is a big part of the game and a big part of what keeps me playing.

In cases like this though - I would like to think that as a 'Football Manager' I would probably know exactly what I was telling my players to do when I gave them instructions.....

Which is why these forums are so great, and why I appreciate the many people who generously give their time to answer questions like these.

[Rashidi]

Strong tall fast? I'd go for a high tempo variant of 433, but I wouldn't use a 4123W because a 3 upfront either flat or with an AM would be devastating and dominant

[Option]

I agree completely!

The problem with the whole manual/guide issue - I think - is that SI have to walk a bit of a tightrope. I'm sure they don't want to make it so transparent that it can be boiled down to x+y=WIN (mostly). They want to keep people coming back to figure it out - and I'm OK with that, the problem solving is a big part of the game and a big part of what keeps me playing.

In cases like this though - I would like to think that as a 'Football Manager' I would probably know exactly what I was telling my players to do when I gave them instructions.....

Which is why these forums are so great, and why I appreciate the many people who generously give their time to answer questions like these.

Agree, but the SI should not keep such information from the people paying for a production. It then becomes "broken" in a way, unplayable.

There are so many ways to play, why should we not get a proper explanation without it hurting SI? I think if the game becomes more understandable it will keep more players playing, and bring

more players to play FM. Not the other way around.

If i understood the roles, duties, TIs/PIs better i would 100% allot more then i do now. It would be even more fun. Right now for me, i dont even care about playing with a lower league

team because i do not feel i have the knowledge of how the system in FM works good enough to take this challenge. So the little fun i get out of FM is by playing with 5 star teams.

Im not after some auto win help, not at all. You cant expect to win every time or everything. That would just be boring. But i would love the understanding of the game, so when i lose i

will get the "aha" feeling after the match and swearing for myself i made a tactical mistake. Right now, 80% of the time i cant understand how something went wrong.

And when i cant understand or see where the fault lies, then how could i adjust my game plan when i face the same team in a "round 2", if they use the same formation and tactic.

[Dr. Hook]

Agree, but the SI should not keep such information from the people paying for a production. It then becomes "broken" in a way, unplayable.

There are so many ways to play, why should we not get a proper explanation without it hurting SI? I think if the game becomes more understandable it will keep more players playing, and bring

more players to play FM. Not the other way around.

Let's not get carried away here SI aren't keeping information from anyone for any nefarious reason. They have, as was pointed out above, chosen to simplify the language, and honestly, the slice of the user base that plays FM that is represented here in the tactics forum is miniscule. Loads of people, probably most that buy it, play and enjoy it without getting overly worried about the manual.

It can be better, but it's not as bad as keeping information from people. And quite honestly, most of the things people get confused about can be figured out by watching the matches. The direct passing is a perfect example. Set your passing to it, play a match and watch what happens. Then compare to a long ball match. I get that most people don't want to take that kind of time to explore the match engine, and so we have the crappy manual which is designed for those types of users.

[Robson 07]

So, so old but what an underrated thread if you follow the whole thing through from start to finish including WWFan's summary.  An absolutely hidden gem for me.

[RodentofDoom]

"Clear Ball to Flanks" & "Exploit the Flanks" work differently.

Clear ball to flanks essentially tells your players to punt the ball to the left or right side of the pitch, whether you have a player there to receive the ball or not.

Exploit the flanks tells your players to start their attacking plays either down the right or left side of the pitch in preference to the centre.

 

Whipped crosses aren't necessarily low ones, they are just fast paced rather than floaty. (I think)

Be more expressive is telling your players to use more creative freedom, which increases the likelyhood of them ignoring your instructions and instead doing their own thing (afaik this is based of decisions, vision, anticipation etc).

[johnnyyakuza78]

Wow, I forgot about this topic from years ago. 

It has reminded me that I don't feel I ever got a clear answer to my question about directness. Sorry to bring it up again but..

There are a number of notches along the 'passing directness' slider, going from very short passing to route one. The contention was that long ball was wildly different to direct passing, and in real life it might be considered so. But is that the case in Football Manager, where the game is affecting settings such as passing length, tempo, width etc. 

If I for instance my team is playing direct football, on say an attacking mentality, the level of directness is pretty damn high. There is only one tiny notch left on the slider to increase passing directness, and that makes it 'route one' football. I know that selecting that will increase passing length and width across the team. But is it having another, more drastic effect that isn't simply a factor of passing length and width, is there something under the hood telling the players to just hoof it. I've used Route One quite often in my teams and it doesn't always mean they are  only hoofing it either. 

[smajliss]

Hi, this topic is so confusing. I have to apologise, it was my fault caused by my bad english.. You should start the new one before somebody read the opening posts and get lost :-D

[Robson 07]

1 hour ago, smajliss said:

Hi, this topic is so confusing. I have to apologise, it was my fault caused by my bad english.. You should start the new one before somebody read the opening posts and get lost :-D

Thought it led to a fascinating debate.  Personally I liked how you separated direct style from direct passing.

[Cleon]

23 hours ago, johnnyyakuza78 said:

Wow, I forgot about this topic from years ago. 

It has reminded me that I don't feel I ever got a clear answer to my question about directness. Sorry to bring it up again but..

There are a number of notches along the 'passing directness' slider, going from very short passing to route one. The contention was that long ball was wildly different to direct passing, and in real life it might be considered so. But is that the case in Football Manager, where the game is affecting settings such as passing length, tempo, width etc. 

If I for instance my team is playing direct football, on say an attacking mentality, the level of directness is pretty damn high. There is only one tiny notch left on the slider to increase passing directness, and that makes it 'route one' football. I know that selecting that will increase passing length and width across the team. But is it having another, more drastic effect that isn't simply a factor of passing length and width, is there something under the hood telling the players to just hoof it. I've used Route One quite often in my teams and it doesn't always mean they are  only hoofing it either. 

It's not route one football and just hoofing it because the actual passing depends on the role. You seem to have missed the point (as in not mentioning it whatsoever in your reply) that the team setting for direct passing just alters the individual players passing of what the role you have selected comes with. You seem to be talking as if everyone will have maximum or just short of maximum passing but they won't. You can see clearly who in the side will have longer passing that normal by looking at the role you have used. All the roles and duties you use will all have different passing ranges. Your team doesn't have an overall passing style that matches usually. It's just the base role you used that is adjusted.

And no it doesn't have any hidden under the hood instructions but remember your players attributes will play a big part in the execution of all your settings, not just the passing range 

The closer you are to the end of the direct passing scale the closer you are to longball/route one. The closer you are to the start of the direct passing scale the closer to mixed passing you are. Each notch (although notches is an outdated term of thinking in FM) is just a small incremental step towards the next passing style.

TI's don't have an impact of their own, all they do is change the role settings you use.

[johnnyyakuza78]

3 hours ago, Cleon said:

It's not route one football and just hoofing it because the actual passing depends on the role. You seem to have missed the point (as in not mentioning it whatsoever in your reply) that the team setting for direct passing just alters the individual players passing of what the role you have selected comes with. You seem to be talking as if everyone will have maximum or just short of maximum passing but they won't. You can see clearly who in the side will have longer passing that normal by looking at the role you have used. All the roles and duties you use will all have different passing ranges. Your team doesn't have an overall passing style that matches usually. It's just the base role you used that is adjusted.

And no it doesn't have any hidden under the hood instructions but remember your players attributes will play a big part in the execution of all your settings, not just the passing range 

The closer you are to the end of the direct passing scale the closer you are to longball/route one. The closer you are to the start of the direct passing scale the closer to mixed passing you are. Each notch (although notches is an outdated term of thinking in FM) is just a small incremental step towards the next passing style.

TI's don't have an impact of their own, all they do is change the role settings you use.

Ok what I think you are getting at is that Mentality and role affects passing directness across the team, especially in terms of the spread of passing ( for instance on defensive mentality, defenders pass far longer than on attacking mentality, and the reverse is true for attackers). The TI for passing directness will increase the passing length for pretty much all players across the team. 

So potentially setting Route One as a setting, on attacking mentality might not lead to the 'ignorance of midfield' type of passing you'd hope for as defenders passing length would be restricted. Although to be honest its still pretty damn direct on that setting too. 

Either way, I think this is far closer to an attempt to answer my original question than before. This is a good example where the right language can be very helpful!

[Cleon]

39 minutes ago, johnnyyakuza78 said:

Ok what I think you are getting at is that Mentality and role affects passing directness across the team, especially in terms of the spread of passing ( for instance on defensive mentality, defenders pass far longer than on attacking mentality, and the reverse is true for attackers). The TI for passing directness will increase the passing length for pretty much all players across the team. 

So potentially setting Route One as a setting, on attacking mentality might not lead to the 'ignorance of midfield' type of passing you'd hope for as defenders passing length would be restricted. Although to be honest its still pretty damn direct on that setting too. 

Either way, I think this is far closer to an attempt to answer my original question than before. This is a good example where the right language can be very helpful!

The passing TI alters the passing of the role you have selected. Just because you use direct passing TI, doesn’t mean all roles have direct passing. What it means is, the roles will pass slightly more direct than they usually do. But it can still show as being on the ‘short scale’. You can see when you add the more direct passing TI, if you look at the roles you use. You’ll be able to see how much the passing as actually changed by. For example a role that had short passing will still be short passing or more towards the mixed scale even with the TI more direct passing added. It doesn’t mean the player is playing direct passes. It means he’s playing slightly more direct than usual.

By how much it alters, depends on the roles and duties you used.

Also remember your example of route one is the extreme end of the scale in passing terms. 

[johnnyyakuza78]

11 minutes ago, Cleon said:

 

You don’t seem to acknowledge this on any of your replies. You seem to think direct passing TI means every player in the team is using that style of passing, which isn’t true.

Well except I DID acknowledge that in my previous post. A number of times. I'm well aware of the different passing lengths throughout the team, believe me I have looked at each player.

Having said that.. If I change my TI to Route One, every single player in my team will have a much higher passing directness than normal. Even roles that usually are set at short passing such as a BMW will now have a very high level of directness (not quite all the way to the top but not far off) 

That doesn't mean everyone will have the exact same level of passing directness, but every single player in that team on a Route one setting will have a directness well above average. 

Either way, my original point was that there is a slider affecting overall team passing length ( amongst other things) , going from Short to Long, with Direct in between. I still have no idea what the issue with that statement is.

[Cleon]

 

The quoted bit was the remains of the first post I did and I edited it out. At the time of the first reply, you'd not acknowledged it imo. But it doesn't really matter.

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Having said that.. If I change my TI to Route One, every single player in my team will have a much higher passing directness than normal. Even roles that usually are set at short passing such as a BMW will now have a very high level of directness (not quite all the way to the top but not far off

Route one is the extreme of passing that's why. It's not a passing style as such, it's a hit it long and hope for the best. But regardless, it's an extreme end of the scale. That's why it changes things more significantly. 

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Either way, my original point was that there is a slider affecting overall team passing length ( amongst other things) , going from Short to Long, with Direct in between. I still have no idea what the issue with that statement is.

Well you asked;

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But is it having another, more drastic effect that isn't simply a factor of passing length and width, is there something under the hood telling the players to just hoof it. I've used Route One quite often in my teams and it doesn't always mean they are  only hoofing it either. 

You was told no. I'm not sure what more you was wanting but you claimed your original question had not been answered clearly. It's nothing to do with your statement like you mentioned above, it's because you asked a question and stated you believe you have never had a clear answer 

 

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Having said that.. If I change my TI to Route One, every single player in my team will have a much higher passing directness than normal. Even roles that usually are set at short passing such as a BMW will now have a very high level of directness (not quite all the way to the top but not far off) 

BWM on attacking mentality and with the route one TI, is still only mixed passing though. It doesn't utilise short passing unless you select that as a TI. The change is still only a little change though and not a massive one. It's just a step to the next one. Don't get hung up on the size of the bar that is green. All that matters is the text description.

But to be clear and to answer this;

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If I for instance my team is playing direct football, on say an attacking mentality, the level of directness is pretty damn high. There is only one tiny notch left on the slider to increase passing directness, and that makes it 'route one' football. I know that selecting that will increase passing length and width across the team. But is it having another, more drastic effect that isn't simply a factor of passing length and width, is there something under the hood telling the players to just hoof it. I've used Route One quite often in my teams and it doesn't always mean they are  only hoofing it either.

There is nothing under the hood that tells the player to hoof it. The passing TI's have nothing attached to them in terms of what they do. All that TI's do is change the role nothing more. If you're playing direct football on attacking mentality then you are still playing direct passing but you're now getting towards the end of the direct passing scale. And the opposite is true. The lower you get down the scale the closer you are to the previous type of passing range.

There's only 3 types of passing on FM, Short, Direct and long (route one). When you choose a PI/TI all it does is increase/decrease the range of whatever passing you've selected. Depending on the role used, you might not notice that much difference yet on another role it might seems a little bit more extreme. But that's because of the role and what the roles does.

[bangkonggedek]

Good thread.

I've once managed to assemble a squad (almost) full of fast and tall regen bullies with not a lot to offer mental or technical-wise (well, I've always been partial in building a team of uncouth underdogs anyway). Not exactly a route one football, but our defensive line was slightly deeper than normal, then whenever we won possession we try to bomb forward quickly with only around (at most) three men staying behind. Proper Kamikaze football. We conceded so much in possession but the shots on goal numbers were astronomically high in comparison to the oppositions'. When we win it will be magnificent, and if we lose it will be a glorious sight to behold. At least for the neutrals

It was set up like this (IIRC about the roles):

=========Poacher==========

==========================

====APat===BBM===CMat====

=======DMde==DLPsu=======

==FBau==LDde==LDde==FBau==

GK

Yep, no fancy-pants wingers here. Don't like too much of my players operating in the periphery of the field, especially in the defensive phase.

The PIs were:

• "Shoot More Often" for the Poacher, BBM and CMat,
• "Close Down More" and "Tackle Harder" for Poacher, APat, BBM and CMat,
• "Get Further Forward" for APat, BBM and the Full Backs,
• "Roam From Position" for APat, CMat,
• "Move Into Channels" for CMat (might not actually that useful in theory but that's what I used),
• "Run Wide With The Ball" for both Full Backs, and
• "Close Down Much Less" for both Limited Defenders.

The TIs were set so that the team plays fairly wide, defends slightly deeper, be more disciplined in creative freedom, uses tighter marking, prevents short Goalkeeper distribution, fluid team shape and higher tempo. Obviously the mentality set to "Overload", then only set to "Control" on the latter part of the matches when we're comfortably beyond. Use whichever crossing style you fancy depending on your opponents, but personally I never used the low one.

Anything else are depending on the particular opposition that you're facing.

As for the players I've picked for the team (as a rule, I've always prioritize the fitting attribute spreads for the tactical purpose rather than their positional adeptness) :

• The favored attribute spreads for the Poachers weren't really the cool finisher types like Mauro Icardi, but ideally rather the bruiser ones like Mario Mandzukic: very brave and aggressive, high work rate, good in the air and strong. Bonus attributes would be decent enough finishing, off the ball, concentration and anticipation. A rather poor teamwork attribute is actually preferable too, I found; they will rarely delay their forward runs to look up for support whenever we catch the opposition on the breaks. Strong, speedy and selfish.
• Just decent enough passing and crossing (as they did sometimes drift a bit wide somehow) for the APat, and CMat. Like, 10-12 is decent enough, lol. Composure is really negligible since they're not expected to hold the ball and managing the tempo too much.
• Best passers with decent decisions, first touch and technique in the team will be forcibly shoved into the DLPsu role, no matter what. Even with the "Hold Position" activated by default, they often stray a bit forward regardless, providing the team with the final passes.
• Nice finishing/long shots for CMat and BBM.
• Actually the only technical attribute of importance for the BBM is long shots, not much use for anything else Remember to set them to lurking outside the penalty area on corner routines. They're also expected to possess among the best stamina and work rate in your team by default. In addition, I also taught them the "Shoot With Power" PPM if possible.
• Anyone with the best anticipation, concentration, decisions and positioning attributes should be your good old boring DMde. My best performing one was actually rather slow and lazy compared to anyone else in the team but he did more than OK most of the time.
• For the Full Backs I actually used those with less physically imposing traits, as it is of the utmost importance to pick someone with exceptional stamina and work rate instead. And a good crossing ability of course. Decent dribbling also helps. Anything else are bonus.
• As for the Limited Defenders... well, mine were only notable for their superior physical attributes and nothing else, so I guess what should be theoretically good for any defenders will be good for them as well. Maybe positioning is the most important one.

Well that's the extend of what I remember for the setup that I've used.

Something to note, I was managing a 2.Bundesliga team in Germany (managed to get promoted in the first year since I took over the team from the AI manager) where the team registration rules were rather relaxed, so I'm able to have a large enough squad to routinely rotating the team, as the tactic seemed to be quite exhausting even for a physically gifted bunch of cavemen. So dunno if this is feasible enough in any other leagues with the stricter number of maximum registered players.

edit: This tactic was used on the FM 2016, so I honestly don't know how this will translate to the latter versions of the game.

Keep this thread alive please. I would love the hear anyone else's takes on managing such a team