Why do I concede so many goals?

[mchbitil]

Hi guys. I know you are good in tactics and hopefully you can help me.

I'm playing MU in FM 2015 (with new transfers update). The problem is that real life MU is not conceding any goals, but my team is leaking. I've conceded 20 goals in 20 games, including goals from West Ham, Norwich, Watford and so on; got 3 goals from Liverpool and 4 from Chelsea. As the result I'm in the 4th place (2014-15 midseason).

The opposing teams always have too many chances. In 1-1 game with West Ham they had 17 shots, 6 on target. In 2-1 win against Norwich (19th place in table) they had 27 shots, 13 on target, 6 clear cut chances.

Unlike reality I also bought Sergio Ramos but it doesn't help. For attack I bought Lacazette and it definitely helps my attack, no complaints there.

On mentality, I'm switching between Counter and Control regularly depending on the score. Sometimes when desperate I switch to Attacking or Overload.

On team instructions, I use "Offside trap" and "Look for overlap" all the time. Sometimes I use "Higher tempo" and "More direct passing". I don't use any other instructions.

I don't use per-player instructions.

Here are my two main tactics. (Mata is injured otherwise he is in top 11 for sure)

Thanks!

[aderow]

Well your first tactic uses a very attacking shape and just leaves so much space in midfield for your opponent to operate in. It also doesn't help that your deepest midfielder is a ball winner and is probably gonna be out of position a lot chasing people on the ball.

[Bluebird123]

The first thing that sticks out in both tactics is that you have no holding midfielder.

[mchbitil]

Well in many games I played with the lowest DM being Anchor Man or Half Back. Would it help?

Any suggestions on how to improve this tactic?

[vasilli07]

The 1st 1 is too attacking. RPM will roam up the pitch and BWM will close down high up too, leaving your 2 central defenders stranded. If you want to use a 4-2-4 kinda of formation with wingbacks, probably use 2 holding midfielders. A DLP(S)-DLP(D) or DLP(S)-AM(D).

Or if you want still want to use the RPM, can consider changing Darmian to a FB(S) to give you more defensively stability.

May want to consider dropping the use offside trap TI as all your 4 defenders got to be on the same page to perfect it. Anyone with a poor concentration maybe slow to move up.

[parkthebus]

If you're using offside trap you'll probably want a midfielder to shield the d line who will either intercept the pass or force their players to simply choose another pass. Also bear in mind that if they play with a pacey striker they'll likely be trying to pass into space so you'll need fast defenders (in particular your centre halves). Pitch dimensions is also important. If the pitch is short, your defenders will have less time to catch up with the player who is through on goal. This tactic can be effective but only in matches you expect to dominate possession. The high line is useful only when used in balance. The advantage is that you keep the ball much better and therefore have a better attacking threat but if you don't keep possession well your advantage will be gone and your opposition will have the ball often with plenty of space to exploit. So in short, only use when you have high possession.

[mchbitil]

Thanks guys. I will definitely turn off offside trap and try again.

Also I'll switch BWM into Anchor Man or DM (d) or DLP (d), will try all.

I will also try switching wing-backs to full-backs. (I guess both - why only Darmian?). But it's a shame, a lot of my goals are now assisted by wing backs, I guess they will be less attacking in FB mode.

[Leoforos]

Yeah the first one is way too aggressive, leaving huge gaps in the middle. The second one is much more balanced and I like the 4231 deep, it adresses some of the issues the standard 4231 has but also plays in a very different way.

Changing the BWM to a holding role will bring you a lot more stability but beware of 2 things : 1) Schneiderlin ( and Fellaini I think) has the PPM "get forward whenever possible" ( or whatever the name is), therefore he isn't necessarily the best choice for a holding role, unlike in real life where he's very much the more defensive minded mid. 2) You need to pay attention to the way your defensive mids link up with your more advanced players : if the link is insufficient they might be forced to play long and waste possession. 4231 deep lends itself well to a more direct style of play but you don't want to go overboard with that.

I would recommend to leave the APs that way he links up with the DLPs. You can also make sure your AP has the PPM "comes deep to get the ball", it's very important.

You don't have to change both of them to fullbacks, you can keep a wingback behind the IF and switch your DM to the left slot so he covers the WB's space.

[mchbitil]

Well you guys are saying second is more balanced, but I don't score goals from second as Rooney as a lone striker is useless. I switched to the first one because I have to have a partner for Rooney.

[mchbitil]

2) You need to pay attention to the way your defensive mids link up with your more advanced players : if the link is insufficient they might be forced to play long and waste possession.

How can I figure out if link is sufficient or not?

I would recommend to leave the APs that way he links up with the DLPs. You can also make sure your AP has the PPM "comes deep to get the ball", it's very important.

You mean keep AMC as AP? or have multiple APs?

I'm always confused, is it better to have one playmaker on the pitch or is it ok to have 2-3.

[mchbitil]

What do you think about this variant?

I'm not sure if moving Schweinsteiger to CM is good or bad. Also not sure what role will work for Rooney here, and for AMC (Januzaj / Herrera / Mata position), given that Rooney is actually bad in running and finishing and needs a striker partner.

[ozilthegunner]

Some thoughts on the new one:

1. You should have the FB (or WB) on the left on attack duty, in order to continue to give you width when Depay cuts in.

2. You have a link-up problem here. Valencia may come back a bit (because he is on support duty) but perhaps not enough. Januzaj, as a treq, is totally unreliable as someone to link up midfield to attack (his job is just to float around in space and wait for a pass). Schweiny as a DLP in the CM strata helps a bit, but since he is a DLP he will still be sitting deep more so than coming forward with the ball to link things up. Perhaps Rooney as a F9 will come back, but I am not sure.

So, here are some possible options: Move Schweiny back to the DM strata, but keep same rule/duty; and then shift your AMC to a CM and give him something like a CM(s) or (maybe) CM(a) role/duty. That should help with link up.

Or, keep everyone where they are, but change your treq to something more useful for linkup play.

Maybe (this I am not sure about, but you can try) make Rooney a DLP(s) and he MAY come back enough (but if he does it may be he does as a F9 already - that is for you to check).

3. It isn't clear where your goals are going to come from, other than Depay. Do you want Januzaj to be scoring too? With Rooney as a F9 I would think you do, but then you want him to be something like an AM(a) or something else that will get towards goal more directly. The Treq just floats too much and so is much better as a playmaker than a goal scorer. (think something like Ozil) And Valencia as a a W(s) may get goals on occasion, but is more about creating as well.

To be honest, if I had these people, here is what I would try (not sure if it'd work, but worth a try): 433(dm)

So your back four will be basically as you have it, but I'd put both Fullbacks as Wingbacks. The Wingback on Depay's side should have attack duty, the other support duty.

DM is Schneiderlin, perhaps as a half-back (although if he has the 'get forward whenever possible' PPM that may be an issue)

2 CMs - Schweinsteiger as DLP(s) or just CM(s) and then another player (Januzaj? I don't know) as a CM(s) or Box-to-box midfielder. If as a CM(s), feel free to change him to a CM(a) to exploit space further forward.

Depay is as you have him, but give him the PI to 'sit narrower' (at least, maybe roam as well - I do not know his PPMs).

Valencia or whoever on the right as a Winger in attack, with the PI to (sit wider).

Rooney as a DLF - toy with support or attack.

The idea here is that in attack you will effectively have 2 forwards - Rooney and Depay. Valencia will be provider from the wing, while your two CMs will help maintain possession and provide the late attack. Your wingback on the left will maintain width and also provide additional crosses

In defense you have two major lines - first the CMs and your attacking wingback. Then your DM, CBs and supporting wingback. That is 2 lines of 3 (they won't be exact lines, but meh).

You will still have to toy with team instructions and mentality, but that may be a start to be more defensively sound.

[Leoforos]

How can I figure out if link is sufficient or not?

You mean keep AMC as AP? or have multiple APs?

I'm always confused, is it better to have one playmaker on the pitch or is it ok to have 2-3.

Well the 4231 deep has a natural gap in the MC position. If you don't have a couple of player coming deep to make themselves available for a pass the team will be cut in half. The APs should provide a good enough link. However I don't think the 4231 deep is the best formation for short passing and possession play, it's better suited to a direct style of play IMO.

You can have more than one playmaker in a team it's not a problem, it all depends on how you use them.

As for Rooney not scoring welcome to LVG's world . Due to his PPMs he really is more of a DLF/F9 rather than an AF. The way I see it there are 2 ways of using Rooney as a lone striker : either as an F9 with 2 IF or an IF and a RMD in a 433 formation ( no AMC) or as a DLFs in a partnership with a very attack oriented AMC ( an AMa or a Shadow striker).

[mchbitil]

If it makes any difference, I always play with "Fluid" team shape.

[mchbitil]

Thanks everyone for great advice.

I improved defence with lower teams, but I still lost 0-3 to Chelsea. And they had 30 shots on goal (29 of them were till 70th minute, and then they stopped attacking more or less).

Here is the tactic and squad that I played against Chelsea (not the best selection I have but still should have done way better). It was Capital One Cup so I replaced some players but Chelsea played their best possible team.

What did I do wrong?

[vasilli07]

Maybe try getting some ideas here.

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/431704-Let-s-Share-Against-Truly-Superior-Sides-How-Do-You-Like-To-Set-Up

[mchbitil]

Interesting thing.

Recently I added "Retain possession" to team instructions (because I want to please the board) and results became worse. Can you explain how does Retain possession work with my tactics? It's unclear to me whether it should be improvement or not. (I assume that all of my main players are good passers, and attackers are good dribblers)

[Leoforos]

Your forward might be isolated on an attack duty, have you tried putting him on support ? I also think you need more bite in your midfield, I would either change the DLPs to a MCs or a Box-to-Box or the APa to a CMa making him the second wave of your attack. I don't know if Mata has the physical ability to do that, he certainly has the technical and finishing though.

Having a DM also allows you to be more aggressive with your fullbacks so the left FB could also be a WB that way you compensate for the lack of width due to you using 2 IF.

Retain possession basically tells your players to slow down the game and focus on keeping the ball. It's fine when you're ahead but when you're aggressively trying to score this can be counter-productive. Also keep in mind that if you combine retain possession with shorter passing you risk having your game become sluggish.

Keep in mind you don't have to use a lot of TIs for a system to be successful : focus on just a couple and use the others to react to the game. This thread http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/423054-Lines-and-Diamonds-The-Tactician-s-Handbook-for-Football-Manager-2015-%28Part-3-Updated%29?p=10256030&viewfull=1#post10256030

has all the information you need ( mentality, shape, roles, TIs, PIs).

EDIT : just thought of something and it might work well with rooney in a 433: try him as a DLF on support with instructions to move into channels and roam from position. This should give him even more mobility and combined with his passing and mentals he should give a lot of assists. Keep both the IF on attack ( these should be your main goalscorers) and change your DLPs to a MCs or even B2B to make the holy trinity of sitter + runner + creator.

[mchbitil]

So, I started this thread after 20 games in the season when I conceded 20 goals and was in the 4th place.

Now I'm in the same season after 35 games, I conceded 30 goals total and I've just got the 1st place after Chelsea lost to Stoke at home. (In addition, I'm in CL semifinal and FA Cup final).

My home record is 18-0-0, while my away record is 6-9-2. I've improved in March and April, even though I had quite some injuries. (Rooney sprained ankle twice, 5 weeks each time; Herrera 6 weeks; Schweinsteiger 3 months; Lacazzette 3 weeks, etc.)

I've abandoned the first tactic completely, and I occassionally use the second tactic.

The biggest difference is not even the tactic, the biggest difference is that I started to use Full Match that I didn't use before at all. Now I usually do Full Match for the first 15 mins, after some changes, and in the last part of the match if I don't like the result. It definitely helps to see what's going on in a way that Comprehensive can't.

Very recently I started to add "Be more expressive" TI. Still not sure whether anything changes.

My transfers this season were all spot on. Sergio Ramos is a fixture in the defence. Lacazette scored 22 goals, Carlos scored 16 goals even though he is third choice striker. (Rooney scored 13 goals and gave 14 assists).

Depay is my best player, with 28 goals and 16 assists, 14 PoM in 42 starts and 6 sub appearances.

Though my players are not high on individual lists of EPL players. E.g. Depay is goalscorer #5 in EPL.

I conceded most 3 goals in a game, 2-3 against Valencia away and 4-3 against Tottenham at home. My best results are 6-0 vs Arsenal and 5-0 against PSV (who thankfully knocked out Chelsea before).

Here is my main tactic with my top players:

Here is how I play when I'm desperate to score:

Table, home and away, and schedule:

When Carlos is playing instead of Rooney, he is CF(s) or CF(a). I feel there is enough link up to the attacker.

When Lacazette or Wilson is attacker, they are usually AF(a).

When Valencia is on the right wing, he is W(S). When Januzaj is on the right wing, he is IF(S). When Young is on the left wing, he is IF(S).

Somewhat often I change the DM to Anchorman(D).

I switch my fullbacks to WB(A) when at home and when we need a goal, and I switch them to WB(S) or FB(S) when starting away or when closing down after a good start.

I also tried to switch to "Play narrower" when I really need to protect my lead and it works great.

I'm very open to more suggestions! Especially given that now I want to win the Treble

And it would be interesting to discuss transfers. I want to buy a good RB, since I was overreliant on Darmian (50 games so far this season) and I want someone even better. May be a star DM. I looked at Xabi Alonso but his Acceleration is at 7 and Pace is at 9, which is way lower than my team, but I don't know if these are important at all for DM (Anchorman or DLP).

[mchbitil]

On the funny side - there are no Spanish clubs in CL semifinal. Even though Ronaldo and Messi were very healthy and playing

Real Madrid lost in QF to PSG, Atletico lost in QF to Bayern, Barcelona lost in 1/8th to PSG.

And now PSG is trying to knock me out..

They won 3-1 at home both vs Real and vs Barca (and PSG was down to 10 men for 50 mins!). If they win 3-1 at home vs me I'm out

[HUNT3R]

Nevermind suggestions. You're obviously doing much better. It'd be much more interesting to explain what you noticed, what changes you made and how it helped.

[mchbitil]

Sure, so here are some of my thoughts and observations.

More than half of my build up is going through flanks, even though I don't have "exploit flanks" or "play wider". I have "Look for overlap". So good wingbacks are crucial, and even though Luke Shaw and Matteo Darmian are only 3-star they are very useful up there.

I have to have DM since when my wingbacks are way up my defensive line is basically only two CDs and a DM. DM at DLP(d) or A(d) plays pretty well in this set-up.

I tried to play Sergio Ramos as BPD but it was bad since he was leaving the line. So no BPD when you have wingbacks. I don't remember what PPMs Marcos Rojo has, but I conceded at least one stupid goal when he went up to fight for the ball and left Ramos alone, so the guy that Ramos was fighting just gave a great forward pass and a striker went on a rendez-vous with GK.

I was afraid there would be a problem playing too many people in attacking stances. It is not actually a problem. In my main tactic 4-1-2-2-1, I often have both wingers on Attack, striker on Attack, and one of the CMs on Attack, and they actually end up playing well.

IF(A) and RMD(A) are spending most of their time in the middle of the pitch as opposed to the wings, so by having this set up I always have good number of players to overload opponents' CDs. Of course WB(A) or WB(S) are necessary in this case to have width.

BBM is great and I feel I always need one when I need to attack. (I actually can turn him to some more defensive role when I need to hold the score). BBM is often right up there attacking opponents' CDs, helping to overload them with numbers. I was surprised but BBM(s) has more shots and is often way higher than AP(a), even though he is (s) and not (a). Schneiderlin is great for BBM and Fellaini too, and I struggle to choose.

I played FM a lot before but this is the first time when my main attacking force is not actually center-forward. Depay and Lacazzette are awesome as attackers on wings and they have plenty of room to make runs, since they are often unmarked. Depay is also a master of long shots - probably a half of his goals are from outside penalty area. (I'm still not sure if I should teach him to drop his "shoots with power" PPM, since he misses so many shots because of this, but he also scores some scorchers).

When Depay or Lacazzette are not available I feel I am much more toothless but I have no idea yet what to do. Instead of Depay I have Young IF(S), instead of Lacazzette I have Januzaj IF(S) or Valencia W(S), and these three guys have much worse finishing and shooting than Depay and Lacazzette.

Definitely after my tactical changes compared with the first post opponents have fewer shots and fewer chances. (with my top tactic I had 5-0 win against Leicester where they had 20 shots). Still, away games are a struggle.

Big important improvement: I learned how to read the opponents' stance while looking at 2D view in "Full Match" mode. Basically, you can always see their formation on a small formation pop-up, but before this thread I never knew if they play counter / control / etc. Now I look how high their defenders are when GK distributes the ball. If their defenders are high and they pile up and have a lot of possession, I usually switch to Counter and Direct Passing, and often I force them to retreat. If their defenders are low and they still have a lot of possession, I usually do Control or Standard to try to steal the ball.

If I feel I have more possession and chances I always go for Control or even Attacking.

I put WB on (S) or even (D) when I need to protect the advantage in the latter part of the game. I start on WB(S) when I'm underdog, esp. in away games.

I never utilize "team talk" morale shouts during the game; I use them to full extent in the halftime though.

Before, I would often "rest" a few of my star players in games with lower opponents when another important game is coming up; this contributed to many bad away results against lower teams. Now I prefer to play best possible teams as long as players have 90%+ condition, and rest only if lower. I do 2-day match preparation, apart from the situation when there are only 2 or 3 days before the game. If there are 3 days before the game, I do 2 days rest and 1 day match preparation; if 2 days before the game, I do 1-1.5 days rest and 0.5-1 days preparation.

My team is always in better physical condition than opponents.

Of course link-up, aka "having someone to pass", is important. I feel that in my last two tactics link-up is not a problem, my players always have some good option to pass.

I still don't have a feel if "Higher tempo" and "Lower tempo" are helpful or harmful.

I shoot huge amount of direct free kicks (usually Mata, also Depay, Young) but scored only one ever. Probably deserves a separate thread.

I almost never concede from corners but I score a pretty good number from corners. Not sure why.

[mchbitil]

Haha, it's funny. I started the thread when I was really concerned that my team is "leaking goals". In the end I won the EPL title conceding just 31 goals in 38 games (so just 11 goals in 18 games since starting the thread), and my center-backs (Jones & Ramos) made it to the team of the season! The only guys from my team on it.

Also my away record improved, it's 8-9-2 (was 4-9-2 at some point).

And Chelsea got the late sprint too, they won away games at Man City and Liverpool in the closing weeks of the season, but couldn't catch me. I have 14 wins in a row across all competitions. Now FA Cup and CL finals are ahead

[mchbitil]

I won FA Cup Final against Chelsea. And it was quite a match.

It was the first game ever that I watched on Full Match from beginning to the end.

Chelsea scored on minute 30th or so, before that everything was equal.

Then I started to press on my usual tactic, with 1 DM and 2 CMs. Nothing.

After 45 min I switched to aggressive tactic, no DMs, 2 CM, 1 AM. Still nothing.

On minute 65 or so I switched to mostly forgotten 2 forward tactic (see first screenshot in this thread), slightly modified; 2 CM (DLP(s) and BBM(s)), 2 wingers (IF(A) and AP(A)), and 2 forwards (DLF(S) and AF(A)) (my familiarity went waay down), and I switched to Attacking mentality.

Besides shape and mentality, the whole game I was switching a few TIs, on & off - "Higher tempo", "Narrower", "Offside trap"..

On ~75th min I scored. 1-1.

I switched mentality to Standard immediately but kept the same shape. Chelsea wasn't attacking well, and I've scored on the 87th minute.

Won 2-1.

Surprisingly to myself this 2-striker shape really gave me a lot of shots and chances. I had 5 clear-cut chances in the end, 3 of them came in the last 20 minutes.

Chelsea was playing the whole game in attacking shape, no DMs, 2 CM, 1 AM + wingers, 1 ST.

They also played 17-yo Cristian Manea as RB since Ivanovic wasn't available, but I didn't feel it affected the game much. (my goals were both from the other flank)

Compare this stat with the stat in the post above - just a few months passed . Though above Chelsea was at home, and current stat is at Neutral.

Only one game left - CL final against Bayern. They destroyed Man City 4-0 at home.

[mpreston85]

Good stuff, I remember making tactics by following guides but then making changes just because "must improve it" instead of observing the game, seeing a recurring issue rather than individual mistake and solving it.

I used to just do the "slower = possession, faster = attacking" but its not really true. This is how I now think of tempo and what I look for before changing the settings:

Higher Tempo - I use when I see spaces to exploit when the opposition closes down to heavily or commits players forward. This gives you space to play into if you can exploit it before they pressure you and consolidate. Whilst some decisions will be worse, the good ones are more likely to lead to a good chance. Playing 1 touch football without space is hard. High tempo is usually a "transitional" play style, end to end football with lots of space.

Lower Tempo - Kind of the opposite, due to a lack of space because they don't commit players forward and just sit deep they are less likely to be out of position for you to exploit quickly. So you need to create the space through overloads, pulling defenders out of position etc which requires a bit more patient play. If your passing it before drawing any pressure to you or dribbling into defenders who have cover then your playing into a dead end. Usually more "possession" play style to allow for movement and hopefully frustrate the opponents or wait for a mistake due to decisions/concentration/aggression etc.