Guardiola - 3-3-1-3 - No Centre Backs

[Gregorio Thommassi]

I was casually browsing the stats and formations on flashscores when I happened upon the Bayern-Leverkusen game, and the formation that Guardiola has chosen to employ this week.

3-3-1-3, with not a trained centre-half on the pitch. The three 'defenders' are all wing-backs. Here's a glance at the tactic - http://formation-x.com/en/formation/bayern.html#team

Many will already be familiar with this, but this is the first time I've seen him use this formation with no true central defenders on the pitch.

Anyway, might this raise questions for FM? Should there, at some point in the future, be a move toward more fluidity of player roles and positions? I've seen this raised a few times on these forums, and I'm sure SI have already discussed it themselves.

[RTHerringbone]

I know that Benatia and Badstuber are injured. What about Dante and Boateng? Suspended or it this genuinely a conscious decision from Guardiola?

In a FM context, you can already use non-DCs at DC. What we can't achieve is the sort of movement Bayern generate from the outer DCs, so if there's anything SI might consider, it is that DC movement in possession can be more controlled. However, I would assume that there needs to be a prolonged use of this sort of system in order for it to be regarded as common enough to warrant inclusion.

[Gregorio Thommassi]

Dante was on the bench. Whether he was unfit, or if his exclusion was just an excuse for Pep's tinkering, is anyone's guess. I'm not sure you could even call them CD's. Maybe BPD's. But they're more like DLP's who also happen to be the last line of defence (at the half way line).

[iMan]

Badstuber, Boateng, Benita, Martinez, all unavailable.

Dante is on his way out. More circumstance than a conscious decision to play without any proper centre backs.

[all4everdragon]

I know that Benatia and Badstuber are injured. What about Dante and Boateng? Suspended or it this genuinely a conscious decision from Guardiola?

In a FM context, you can already use non-DCs at DC. What we can't achieve is the sort of movement Bayern generate from the outer DCs, so if there's anything SI might consider, it is that DC movement in possession can be more controlled. However, I would assume that there needs to be a prolonged use of this sort of system in order for it to be regarded as common enough to warrant inclusion.

More roles coming in maybe ?

[RTHerringbone]

More roles coming in maybe ?

I hope not. More PIs perhaps, but hopefully no more Roles.

[all4everdragon]

I hope not. More PIs perhaps, but hopefully no more Roles.

That can work, although If people get confused right now I'm guessing complains will increase

[Jean0987654321]

I think Bernat and Lahm were BPD (x) and Alaba BPD ©

I have no clue how they got away with a win against Leverkusen with that shape. It looked dangerous as heck to play with

[Fritz13]

I read that Alonso played in defence - or maybe he just dropped back to become a 2nd CB when required.

[Gregorio Thommassi]

It looked to me like Alonso played half-back. He was frequently dropping back in between the 'centre-halfs'. Although he also fulfilled the duties of a regista. So half-regista-back.

Neuer distributed the ball to Lahm and Bernat, who would do that wide split thing where they were positioned very deep at either corner flag. I'm not entirely sure but I think Alaba pushed up into midfield at this point. To be honest, that's as far as my analysis goes when it comes to Guardiola.

[Dr. Hook]

That can work, although If people get confused right now I'm guessing complains will increase

No more confusing than the roles, though. I'd much rather have no roles and more PIs so that each position can be customized as the user likes. Roles are fine as templates, but all need to be adjustable. Anyway, off topic for this discussion

[all4everdragon]

No more confusing than the roles, though. I'd much rather have no roles and more PIs so that each position can be customized as the user likes. Roles are fine as templates, but all need to be adjustable. Anyway, off topic for this discussion

Cheers for that customization, let's hope some good news in a few months. And yes, sorry for the off topic.

[mchbitil]

I hope not. More PIs perhaps, but hopefully no more Roles.

For experienced FM players surely, more PIs is better than more Roles.

For less experienced ones (for those who did less than 1000 hours) more Roles is definitely better than more PIs. Most new players never use PIs because they are too confusing. (I personally started using PI just in the last couple weeks, after 1500+ hours in FM, and I still do it very cautiously).

If we want to keep FM accessible to people who are not that hardcore, we need Roles and better have more roles.

[RTHerringbone]

If we want to keep FM accessible to people who are not that hardcore, we need Roles and better have more roles.

People are still asking fundamental questions about Roles though, so I think is is not necessarily correct to assume that more Roles is a good idea. I fully expect us to get one or two more, but I don't think that the addition of them will help "new" players at all. What will happen is we'll see questions like "How does New Role A differ from a Deep Lying Forward, Target Man or Advanced Forward?", "How does New Role B differs from a Regista or Roaming Playmaker?"

It's also a bit of a supposition to assume that "Most new players never use PIs" - from what I see of "new" users posting set ups in here, the majority do use PIs and TIs.

[aderow]

More customization of current/fewer roles is what I'd prefer. For the exact reason that RTH mentioned; new people will have an easier time using a smaller set of roles and then slowly get a grip on what each PI or TO does than trying to do that with an even greater set of roles, each with it's own combination of PIs and behavior unique to that role, and then having to learn about PIs and TIs on top of that.

[all4everdragon]

People are still asking fundamental questions about Roles though, so I think is is not necessarily correct to assume that more Roles is a good idea. I fully expect us to get one or two more, but I don't think that the addition of them will help "new" players at all. What will happen is we'll see questions like "How does New Role A differ from a Deep Lying Forward, Target Man or Advanced Forward?", "How does New Role B differs from a Regista or Roaming Playmaker?"

It's also a bit of a supposition to assume that "Most new players never use PIs" - from what I see of "new" users posting set ups in here, the majority do use PIs and TIs.

Indeed, they are a good idea and either we should get more PI or at least roles more customizable or we should get more roles. Right now, I'm thinking about Guardiola and about the dynamics he gives to some players that I don't see possible in FM as things are.

[all4everdragon]

And I'm still dealing with FM mentality and team shape regardind Guardiola because every Mentality has a piece of text descrition that fits in Guardiola, it's terrible. As for team shape, I don't agree with some people about very fluid since I don't see all players participating in all aspects of the match.

[rninejr]

And I'm still dealing with FM mentality and team shape regardind Guardiola because every Mentality has a piece of text descrition that fits in Guardiola, it's terrible. As for team shape, I don't agree with some people about very fluid since I don't see all players participating in all aspects of the match.

those descriptions are bias. u better read some sticky threads above for better informations

[all4everdragon]

those descriptions are bias. u better read some sticky threads above for better informations

I've read them all and they,ve been very helpful, but I'm still struggling more with Mentality, as for Team Shape I keep trying all except Very Fluid. And you're right, those descriptions need serious improvement and better clarification. Will it be this year ?

[Mercurio.3]

Actually it's a 3-3-4 formation. He used that many times in his last season at Barcelona.

[all4everdragon]

The formation is a minor problem, Guardiola changes a lot his formation and since we can use 3 formations in FM I think that issue can be covered peacefuly

[Mercurio.3]

You can try this. It works very well for me:

MENTALITY: Standard

TEAM SHAPE: Structured

INSTRUCTIONS

Retain Possession

Work Ball Into Box

Play Out Of Defence

Low Crosses

Play Wider

Much Higher Defensive Line

Stick To Positions

Close Down Much More

Stay On Feet

Use Offside Trap

Prevent Short GK Distribution

Higher Tempo

De More Disciplined

GK - Sweeper Keeper (Defend) - Pass It Shorter, Fewer Risky Passes, Distribute To Centre Backs, Take Short Kicks, Slow Pace Down

SW - Sweeper (Defend)

DCR - Central Defender (Defend) - Mark Tighter

DCL - Central Defender (Defend) - Mark Tighter

DM - Anchor Man (Defend) - Close Down Much More

MR - Wide Midfielder (Attack) - Dribble Less, Cross From Byline, Stay Wider, Cuts Inside With Ball, Cross Less Often, Close Down Much More

MCR - Deep Lying Playmaker (Support)

MCL - Central Midfielder (Attack) - Move Into Channels

ML - Wide Midfielder (Attack) - Dribble Less, Cross From Byline, Stay Wider, Cuts Inside With Ball, Cross Less Often, Close Down Much More

STCR - False Nine (Support) - Roam From Position, Hold Up Ball

STCL - Defensive Forward (Defend) - Dribble Less, Move into Channels

Dominating centre of the final third (False 9, Defensive Forward & Offensive Midfielder) and stretching the opposition defensive line (two Wide Midfielders)

[RTHerringbone]

The formation is a minor problem, Guardiola changes a lot his formation and since we can use 3 formations in FM I think that issue can be covered peacefuly

This is why the real experts use FMC, where there are no tactical inhibitors like Tactical Familiarity

[RTHerringbone]

You can try this. It works very well for me:

Use Offside Trap

SW - Sweeper (Defend)

Don't you find that the use of a Sweeper somewhat render the use of the Offside Trap redundant? It operates best with a flat line as it is easier to coordinate stepping up in such a system.

[Mercurio.3]

Don't you find that the use of a Sweeper somewhat render the use of the Offside Trap redundant? It operates best with a flat line as it is easier to coordinate stepping up in such a system.

I'm not having any problem with this. However, if I use 3 DCs the central of them tends to leave his zone too much and it's a problem. I prefer a Sweeper.

[all4everdragon]

This is why the real experts use FMC, where there are no tactical inhibitors like Tactical Familiarity

well, that's why there are pre-seasons, both for experts and non-experts

[all4everdragon]

I'm not having any problem with this. However, if I use 3 DCs the central of them tends to leave his zone too much and it's a problem. I prefer a Sweeper.

what about possession ? how is this turning for you ?

[henkheikens]

i have 60- 67 % possession each match i played with Man City and they complete 90% of their passes

[Mercurio.3]

what about possession ? how is this turning for you ?

(H) Barcelona 4-2 Elche - 72% possession, 89% passes completed, 714 total passes; 101 playmaker passes, 58 false 9 passes

(A) Villarreal 1-1 Barcelona - 57% possession, 80% passes completed, 589 total passes; 109 playmaker passes, 55 false 9 passes (Daniel Alves sent off at minute 7)

(H) Barcelona 5-2 Athletic - 58% possession, 84% passes completed, 591 total passes; 99 playmaker passes, 45 false 9 passes

(A) Napoli 1-3 Barcelona - 54% possession, 82% passes completed, 600 total passes; 89 playmaker passes, 55 false 9 passes

(A) Levante 1-4 Barcelona - 61% possession, 86% passes completed, 641 total passes; 87 playmaker passes, 63 false 9 passes

(A) Málaga 0-6 Barcelona - 56% possession, 86% passes completed, 591 total passes; 98 playmaker passes, 51 false 9 passes

(H) Barcelona 4-0 Granada - 65% possession, 89% passes completed, 707 total passes; 120 playmaker passes, 44 false 9 passes

(H) Barcelona 4-0 Schalke 04 - 59% possession, 85% passes completed, 603 total passes; 87 playmaker passes, 47 false 9 passes

(A) Rayo 4-5 Barcelona - 57% possession, 82% passes completed, 585 total passes; 77 playmaker passes, 39 false 9 passes

[all4everdragon]

(H) Barcelona 4-2 Elche - 72% possession, 89% passes completed, 714 total passes

(A) Villarreal 1-1 Barcelona - 57% possession, 80% passes completed, 589 total passes (Daniel Alves sent off at minute 7)

(H) Barcelona 5-2 Athletic - 58% possession, 84% passes completed, 591 total passes

(A) Napoli 1-3 Barcelona - 54% possession, 82% passes completed, 600 total passes

(A) Levante 1-4 Barcelona - 61% possession, 86% passes completed, 641 total passes

(A) Málaga 0-6 Barcelona - 56% possession, 86% passes completed, 591 total passes

That's the problem, right there, those nasty possession numbers grrrrrr:mad:

[Mercurio.3]

That's the problem, right there, those nasty possession numbers grrrrrr:mad:

Nasty? You should consider ME possession stats doesn't work like Opta possession stats. Opta calculates possession from percentaje of total passes while FM calculates it from time you have the ball.

[all4everdragon]

Nasty? You should consider ME possession stats doesn't work like Opta possession stats. Opta calculates possession from percentaje of total passes while FM calculates it from time you have the ball.

Meaning that if FM possession were to be translated to Opta, our possession numbers would raise ???

Hum, that's strange, what about when the ball is up in the air ??? Or when the matched is suspended because of an injury ???

[Mercurio.3]

Meaning that if FM possession were to be translated to Opta, our possession numbers would raise ???

Hum, that's strange, what about when the ball is up in the air ??? Or when the matched is suspended because of an injury ???

Most of times it raises. Not much, but it raises. I guess when neither the teams have the ball, this just don't count.

Within this ME is hard to get possessions +70% anyway. If you down tempo, you'll do less passes. If you up mentality, transitions will be so fast. If you up very much tempo, you'll lose the ball. If you down very much mentality, your team won't press so you don't recover the ball (less possession).

[all4everdragon]

Most of times it raises. Not much, but it raises. I guess when neither the teams have the ball, this just don't count.

Within this ME is hard to get possessions +70% anyway. If you down tempo, you'll do less passes. If you up mentality, transitions will be so fast. If you up very much tempo, you'll lose the ball. If you down very much mentality, your team won't press so you don't recover the ball (less possession).

Don't tell me those things, I start wondering that this game isn't tailored for possession

But that sums up well the issue, I've got good players, both technical and mental, I want them to move the ball around quick but they just can't do it, possession drops (and yeah, I know tempo depends on Mentality). And 70% is even possible in most matches, but only during 1st half, then players start becoming complacent and the opponents, that are 10 points of physical condition below my players, during thw 2nd half start running like hell.

[all4everdragon]

It's really amazing how possession drops, playing against a very weak team I'm at 72% ay half-time, for the 2nd half I rotated the players and all the subs went into the match (it's pre-season), then at around 60 minutes when the opponent players have a physical condition about 60-65% and my players have 85-90 and a lot more attibutes, possesion starts dropping until 62% at 90 minutes. :confused: Ok, I can think that the opponent made a reaction, the opponent, those guys a lot worse than my players, with a low pshysical condition reacted after spending the 1st half smelling the ball and losing 3-0. :confused:

[JimmyGuitarist]

I think the point he's making in the topic is that the players in the CB positions did not play like conventional CB's a lot of the time. The only time they had fixed roles was obviously at goal-kicks when they built play from there. It's understandably impossible to replicate such a system though, it happened too situationally. I doubt we'll ever be able to instruct players while a game is in motion. If we could just have the AI understand our screaming instructions into a microphone... but I'm pessimistic.

http://spielverlagerung.com/2015/08/31/bayern-munich-bayer-leverkusen-30/ There's a write-up of the game.

[HUNT3R]

It's really amazing how possession drops, playing against a very weak team I'm at 72% ay half-time, for the 2nd half I rotated the players and all the subs went into the match (it's pre-season), then at around 60 minutes when the opponent players have a physical condition about 60-65% and my players have 85-90 and a lot more attibutes, possesion starts dropping until 62% at 90 minutes. :confused: Ok, I can think that the opponent made a reaction, the opponent, those guys a lot worse than my players, with a low pshysical condition reacted after spending the 1st half smelling the ball and losing 3-0. :confused:

Have a look at what the opposition does differently in the 2nd half compared to the 1st.

[all4everdragon]

Have a look at what the opposition does differently in the 2nd half compared to the 1st.

They did something different, sure. My point is not what they did, its their ability and capacity to do it because 1) the difference in terms of quality of the players and 2) the difference in terms of physical condition.

[Mercurio.3]

It's really amazing how possession drops, playing against a very weak team I'm at 72% ay half-time, for the 2nd half I rotated the players and all the subs went into the match (it's pre-season), then at around 60 minutes when the opponent players have a physical condition about 60-65% and my players have 85-90 and a lot more attibutes, possesion starts dropping until 62% at 90 minutes. :confused: Ok, I can think that the opponent made a reaction, the opponent, those guys a lot worse than my players, with a low pshysical condition reacted after spending the 1st half smelling the ball and losing 3-0. :confused:

It's like a 'compensation law'.

[HUNT3R]

They did something different, sure. My point is not what they did, its their ability and capacity to do it because 1) the difference in terms of quality of the players and 2) the difference in terms of physical condition.

Okay, so what have you noticed that they do different?

[Cleon]

Players can switch off in friendlies especially when 3-0 up it all depends on their personalities and hidden attributes. Players know the difference between competitive matches and none competitive ones. Plus you seem focused on what the opposition did, how about what you did? The team talk you gave at half time? Subs you made? Did you react to their changes and so on. All this plays a part its not as back and white as you seem to be making it all4ever.

[all4everdragon]

Players can switch off in friendlies especially when 3-0 up it all depends on their personalities and hidden attributes. Players know the difference between competitive matches and none competitive ones. Plus you seem focused on what the opposition did, how about what you did? The team talk you gave at half time? Subs you made? Did you react to their changes and so on. All this plays a part its not as back and white as you seem to be making it all4ever.

Ok, but what about players that switch on that have worse attributues than mine, and I mean really worse ??? :confused: I do not see how Lugano's players would have better attributes than FC Porto players, even hidden ones. :confused: What about players that switch on that have 60-65% of physical condition against better players with 85-90% ???

And as I said my point is not what the opposition did but their capacity to do it, its different things. I'm at peace when playing against good teams, of course they make changes and they have the ability to change the match, so it's on me to deal with that.

As for what I did, during friendlies I like to change the team at half-time, never had a problem with team talks.

And sorry for the off-topic moment, but what's the logic behind subs becoming complacent ?????? It's pre-season, players should give their best for a place in the starting eleven.

[Jean0987654321]

I think I got it now. It took a bit of time, but I think I'm able to emulate this tactic

Control

Bayern played a high line this year but they had some space in front of them. So, I think Control fits the shape.

Ridgid

Pep is a diciplined coach and he has no time for much expression.

A pretty interesting shape you say?? Yes, but I'm able to emulate pep's 3-4-3ish formation with this

TIs

Much Higher Tempo

Pep likes to play in high, high speed

Exploit the Flanks

Coupled with "Play Narrower", this made the team compact which Pep likes but enable space for Robben and Costa

Get Stuck In

It would be a disaster if we didnt apply maximum pressure. So I used this TI

Every other TI is just typical Pep-esque stuff that doesn't need much explaining.

PIs:

This is the Neuer role. You know Neuer. This fits him like a glove

This is something I already touched in previous posts. I expect these guys to step up and out wide like FBs.

The Alaba role. He will also occassionly support the attack like a libero.

The Xabi Alonso role. Expected to spray passes but stay back when we are in attack.

I think Vidal is a BBM. His role for Bayern is not as different as his role for Juve. He is also expected to strech the play by running the channels.

The Thaigo role. I also want him to be a bit more defensive as well otherwise out left flank will be exposed to counterattacks

I actually thought that Robben and Costa were Interiors but Interiors don't have the "Stay Wider" PI.

The False 10 usually paired with a False 9.

The Lewandowski role. He's Lewandowski. That is all

Here is one of the teams I played with this tactic

[all4everdragon]

Well, I've been using this shape and I'm finishing 1st season with FC Porto: 26 wins and 4 draws in the league with more than 20 points ahead of the 2nd place, just wone the League Cup and I'm at the Cup final, as for the League, 120 goals scored and 15 goals against. Oh, and as for possession I have an average of 68%.

Control / Fluid, Retain Possession, Shorter Passing, Work Ball into Box, Play Out of Defence, Much Higher Defensive Line, Close Down More, Mark Tighter, Use Offside Trap, Prevent Short GK Distribution, Higher Tempo.

The only issue I'm still working with is against sides that use two strikers or, depending on the player roles, against 4231 formations (when the AM is more attacking and joins the striker.)