Help getting my lower league 532 to work

[DamianJMcGrath]

Hello,

I'm Bristol Rovers in the second season on FM15. The first season was reasonable but tailed off at the end. I lost in the Conference Play Off Final so I face another season out of the football league. I have improved my squad over the off-season but my main problem last year was the inconsistency of the tactic. Below are the details:

I was pretty strong defensively, conceding 35 goals in 50 games but I only scored 61. The majority of my games were decided by the single goal, and I struggled hugely away from home, and oddly, against the worst teams in the division.

I'm playing FMC so don't have all of the analysis tools available, but my main problem appears to be creating good chances. I normally have around 9-10 shots on goal per game, with 3-4 on target. I normally restrict the opposition to less than 5 shots on goal, and 1-2 on target. I concede quite a lot from counter attacks and crosses.

My rationale for my tactical selection is:

Attacking - I'm one of the strongest teams in the division, so I wanted to impose myself on them, and take control of games. I wanted to be on the front foot.

Fluid - this says it allows players to transition between defence and attack, and with my WB's, I wanted that quick switch.

Retain Possession - with my 3 in midfield, and the WB's making it effectively a 5, I had the players to keep the ball, and link up with the DLF. My logic was that keeping the ball would allow the WB's time to get forward after defending.

Play Out of Defence - I hate just smashing the ball forward, so I wanted to keep it and not give possession away needlessly.

Exploit the Middle - I have no wingers at the club, and with the 3 midfielders and the 2 central strikers, the middle is obviously key for us.

Play Wider - even though we have a lot of central players, in order to mix up the type of attacks, I need the WBs to provide the width and crosses, so I wanted them to stretch the opposition by playing wider.

Push Higher Up / Close Down More / Get Stuck In - this was linked to wanting to be attacking and on the front foot by putting pressure on the opposition and not allowing them time to keep possession themselves. I want the ball back.

Use Tighter Marking - with 3 defenders and some defensively minded midfielders, I want to mark the opposition tightly, again, aiming to win the ball back quickly and give them no options.

Prevent Short GK Distribution - I want them to kick it long so we can win it back.

Higher Tempo - even though we're retaining possession, I want to play quickly, with the description of this instruction saying it unsettles the opposition.

My logic on my player roles:

Sweeper Keeper - with my higher defensive line, the keeper can come out and collect any through balls from the opposition.

Central Defenders - 2 on Defend, and 1 on Cover just to provide some backup.

Wing backs - I'd ideally like 2 on attack, but was worried about it being too attacking, so changed one to Support, to aid with keeping possession in midfield.

Deep-lying playmaker - defend - The midfielder to stay back and make it 4 players defending when everyone else rushes forward.

Ball winning midfielder - support - set to support because I want him winning the ball high up the pitch.

Central midfielder - attack - I needed someone supporting the strikers with forward runs and thought this role would be best.

Deep-lying forward - support - a player to link midfield to attack

Attacking forward - attack - the player to lead the line.

For some away games, I've experimented with going Counter and Structured, and switching to Direct Passing and taking off the possession based instructions, but that never works and always results in me conceding.

When I'm losing the game, I never know what to do to go more attacking - switching to Overload doesn't seem to do anything.

I want some general advice on how to create more chances, and be more of a threat going forward because I'm pretty poor in the final third at the moment. I tried moving the CM-A to a AM but it had no obvious difference.

Has anyone used a 5-3-2 before and can see anything I'm doing terribly wrong?

Thanks

[HUNT3R]

My rationale for my tactical selection is:

Attacking - I'm one of the strongest teams in the division, so I wanted to impose myself on them, and take control of games. I wanted to be on the front foot.

Fluid - this says it allows players to transition between defence and attack, and with my WB's, I wanted that quick switch.

Retain Possession - with my 3 in midfield, and the WB's making it effectively a 5, I had the players to keep the ball, and link up with the DLF. My logic was that keeping the ball would allow the WB's time to get forward after defending.

Play Out of Defence - I hate just smashing the ball forward, so I wanted to keep it and not give possession away needlessly.

Exploit the Middle - I have no wingers at the club, and with the 3 midfielders and the 2 central strikers, the middle is obviously key for us.

Play Wider - even though we have a lot of central players, in order to mix up the type of attacks, I need the WBs to provide the width and crosses, so I wanted them to stretch the opposition by playing wider.

Push Higher Up / Close Down More / Get Stuck In - this was linked to wanting to be attacking and on the front foot by putting pressure on the opposition and not allowing them time to keep possession themselves. I want the ball back.

Use Tighter Marking - with 3 defenders and some defensively minded midfielders, I want to mark the opposition tightly, again, aiming to win the ball back quickly and give them no options.

Prevent Short GK Distribution - I want them to kick it long so we can win it back.

Higher Tempo - even though we're retaining possession, I want to play quickly, with the description of this instruction saying it unsettles the opposition.

I always look at role/duty setup first, because the basics need to be right. Then I look at TIs. So many people ruin a perfectly acceptable tactic with their TI selections. I don't understand the logic and maybe you can explain it a bit better.

- Roles and duties : any reason why you have the DLP on that side instead of covering for the marauding fullback on the other side?

- You've chosen an Attacking mentality. That's a mentality that is high tempo and direct. This, coupled with the Attacking mentality which sees players take chances by really being aggressive in their decision making, whether passes, runs or shots. So that's the mentality summed up, lets look at the TIs.

- So you've stuck Higher Tempo on top of that, but also Retain Possession. Did you need the tempo to be higher?

- If retaining possession is something you needed, why not choose a safer mentality?

- Speaking of, Play out of Defence; was that needed as well? The mentality already has short passing at the back and looking at your tactic, only one player (the DLP/D) is in a position to make himself available for a pass from the defenders. Is that what you wanted?

[DamianJMcGrath]

I always look at role/duty setup first, because the basics need to be right. Then I look at TIs. So many people ruin a perfectly acceptable tactic with their TI selections. I don't understand the logic and maybe you can explain it a bit better.

- Roles and duties : any reason why you have the DLP on that side instead of covering for the marauding fullback on the other side?

- You've chosen an Attacking mentality. That's a mentality that is high tempo and direct. This, coupled with the Attacking mentality which sees players take chances by really being aggressive in their decision making, whether passes, runs or shots. So that's the mentality summed up, lets look at the TIs.

- So you've stuck Higher Tempo on top of that, but also Retain Possession. Did you need the tempo to be higher?

- If retaining possession is something you needed, why not choose a safer mentality?

- Speaking of, Play out of Defence; was that needed as well? The mentality already has short passing at the back and looking at your tactic, only one player (the DLP/D) is in a position to make himself available for a pass from the defenders. Is that what you wanted?

No particular reason for the DLP to be where he is - I'll swap him and the CM-A around, so the DLP-D is in the middle. Then, the CM-A is on the same side as the WB-S, and the BWM-S is on the same side as the WB-A, so there's a S/A pattern on both sides.

I wasn't aware Attacking gave us High Tempo as well, I thought attacking was just "always look to pass and get forward" and I needed to add high tempo on top, which is why it's a separate option. I can take high tempo off then if it's added by default.

You mention attacking is direct, but I think, with my numbers in midfield, I'm well suited to keeping the ball. Can I not be attacking and retain possession?

Talking of the CBs having no-one to pass to, that's a fair point. I was hoping the WB-S would be relatively close, and the BWM-S shouldn't be too high up the pitch either, but I don't particularly want to just lump it forward either. I could try a PI for the GK to distribute to flanks?

One of my main problems is a big gap between midfield and attack - I thought a CM-A would bridge that but he doesn't appear to. Do you think changing the BWM to a B2B would have the desired effect?

[HUNT3R]

I wasn't aware Attacking gave us High Tempo as well, I thought attacking was just "always look to pass and get forward" and I needed to add high tempo on top, which is why it's a separate option. I can take high tempo off then if it's added by default.

All the mentalities have their own default settings for tempo, passing, closing down, D-Line etc. All you're doing with the TIs, is adjusting it from the default, which is why the instructions are highER tempo, rather than HIGH tempo, for instance.

You mention attacking is direct, but I think, with my numbers in midfield, I'm well suited to keeping the ball. Can I not be attacking and retain possession?

Attacking isn't going to keep possession. It's risk taking. Lots of it. That is the whole idea behind the mentality. You're shortening passing range and preventing passes into space, but the risk taking (runs, passes and shots) will still be there.

One of my main problems is a big gap between midfield and attack - I thought a CM-A would bridge that but he doesn't appear to. Do you think changing the BWM to a B2B would have the desired effect?

There will be very little difference between the BWM and B2B in terms of getting forward. Both are support duty roles, which means that they'll support play.

[DamianJMcGrath]

What would your recommendation be for a 5-3-2? Have you ever played with it?

[HUNT3R]

What would your recommendation be for a 5-3-2?

In terms of what? Anything can work. Probably best to take a step back and think about what you want first. Don't just stick a lot of TIs on top initially. Get an idea of how the 'vanilla' tactic functions and then fine-tune.

[chestermike]

Your shape and tactics are very similar to the real life tactics of Mark Wright's Chester City conference winning team of 2003/04. The only major difference I can see is MW played with a target man instead of a dlf, and definitely didn't tell his team to keep possession. But MW always had a more attacking wingback and a more defensive one, the midfield set up pretty much like you have, and the back 3 pretty identical with Phil Bolland sweeping up behind Danny Collins and Scott Guyett. Maybe worth finding some articles about that real life side and thinking about what you could change?

From a purely fm15 viewpoint, I have recently had a thread on here after giving myself the challenge of designing an absolutely brand new tactic following years of success with my 4-2-3-1. I found scouring through the match analysis a huge help, how much of this analysis is available in FMC? I would stick to most of your tactic, as its so so close to what you want. You want to make more chances? Ok, where do your wbs put crosses in from? If you have small strikers with good anticipation, set them to cross early and whipped crosses, so the opposition defence cant set themselves up properly. If you have tall strikers with good jumping and heading, set to float crosses, so they hang in the air and your striker can outjump the defence and score. Also, does your amc make enough chances? If not, maybe set to roam from position so he has more freedom to create. This may make you weaker defensively, so maybe telling him to man mark an oppo midfielder would get him tracking back too? Works for me in my new tactic.

Good luck let us know how you get on.

[DamianJMcGrath]

I really do want to stick at this 532, as I have no wide players at all in the side except for WB's. I'm probably the strongest side in the division, so I thought a possession based system would make sense, as I have the talent to keep the ball. However, I'm starting to think that a slow build from the back just results in a very low volume of chances and shots, as the opposition put men behind the ball.

My strikers are quick with good anticipation so I'll definitely look at early whipped, maybe low, crosses.

I'm now thinking the best approach would be a quick counter attack based system, so I'll change to Counter, and maybe Flexible, as I don't really know what the difference is between Fluid and Structured for a counter attack based tactic. In terms of TI's, I'm struggling.

Direct Passing sounds like it makes sense for a quick counter attack, but if I pass too directly, the front 2 will be isolated from the midfield, so maybe I won't have that.

I'll put Low Whipped Crosses on, and Play Wider to help spread the play for my WB's. I guess I'll want to drop deeper, to invite the opposition onto me before counter attacking? So I'll try that TI too. In order for me to win the ball to start a counter attack, I think I'll want to close down more, get stuck in, and play with a high tempo. That seems to make sense.

Would people agree with that?

[DamianJMcGrath]

I've played 4 games with those instructions and the results have been better, although I've conceded 6 goals in that time. All 6 were from crosses and their striker was somehow not picked up at all by my 3 CB's, and all 6 were scored within 3 minutes of me scoring. Is there anything I should be looking at to stop this?

[Leoforos]

A couple of ideas :

- I've been using a similar system and I've found that WBacks, even on attack, don't provide the necessary width. I've had a lot more success with CWB. You could maybe try it out and see how it fits.

- Put your DLPd on the same side as your WBa/CWBa, he'll help with covering to the wingers runs.

- The DLF & AF is often recommended but I've found the gap between these 2 roles to be too big. I've recently changed the AF to be a Poacher ( he sits a little deeper and in a more central position).

- TIs : as the others have said, some are overkill, mainly Push higher up and higher tempo along with an attacking mentality. Retain possession and play out of D are, IMO, not well suited to an attacking style. Retain possession especially better suits a patient style of play. If you find your players too wasteful, maybe switch to shorter passing.

-

[Marsupian]

I really do want to stick at this 532, as I have no wide players at all in the side except for WB's. I'm probably the strongest side in the division, so I thought a possession based system would make sense, as I have the talent to keep the ball. However, I'm starting to think that a slow build from the back just results in a very low volume of chances and shots, as the opposition put men behind the ball.

My strikers are quick with good anticipation so I'll definitely look at early whipped, maybe low, crosses.

I'm now thinking the best approach would be a quick counter attack based system, so I'll change to Counter, and maybe Flexible, as I don't really know what the difference is between Fluid and Structured for a counter attack based tactic. In terms of TI's, I'm struggling.

Direct Passing sounds like it makes sense for a quick counter attack, but if I pass too directly, the front 2 will be isolated from the midfield, so maybe I won't have that.

I'll put Low Whipped Crosses on, and Play Wider to help spread the play for my WB's. I guess I'll want to drop deeper, to invite the opposition onto me before counter attacking? So I'll try that TI too. In order for me to win the ball to start a counter attack, I think I'll want to close down more, get stuck in, and play with a high tempo. That seems to make sense.

Would people agree with that?

A counter mentality already has a deep defensive line. Dropping too deep can result in too much space in front of the box and out wide. Dropping that TI might also prevent some of the crosses coming into the box too easily.

I'm currently playing an Italian 5-3-2 with Palermo set up like this:

DC(x) - DC(d) - (DC(x)

CWB(a) - Regista(s) - CWB(a)

MC(a) - BBM(s)

CF(s) - CF(a)

Mentality: Counter

Team Shape: Structured.

TI's: Play wider, Get stuck in, Tighter marking, Hit early crosses

PI's: BBM: Play more risky passes, CWB's: Run wide with ball

The idea is to sit back in a structured defensive formation and break using runners (CM's and CWB's) and direct passes (regista) towards my two forward players (Dybala and Belotti/Vazquez). Due to the structured approach the strikers are left free from defensive duties and can focus on getting us that vital goal. This is basically based on the Dutch WC squad of Van Gaal. The football was utter **** but due to the structured defensive approach and Vlaar being an absolute hero in the center of the 3 man defense we were defensively solid. All we needed was some leg work and individual brilliance up front (Hello Robben!) and we were winning games.

[DamianJMcGrath]

A counter mentality already has a deep defensive line. Dropping too deep can result in too much space in front of the box and out wide. Dropping that TI might also prevent some of the crosses coming into the box too easily.

How do I know that? Is there a mentality description somewhere?

[DamianJMcGrath]

Can you help me pinpoint where in that thread it says "counter mentality gives you a high tempo, deep defensive line, direct passing etc" by default.

[DamianJMcGrath]

Ah I didn't know consider options meant slower tempo. I'd have thought counter attack meant a high tempo as you want to do it quickly? Also the passing confuses me - is it Shorter Passing or More Direct Passing?

[HUNT3R]

Ah I didn't know consider options meant slower tempo. I'd have thought counter attack meant a high tempo as you want to do it quickly? Also the passing confuses me - is it Shorter Passing or More Direct Passing?

Counter has a slower tempo which generally means that players will consider options more carefully - unless the counter is on. Tempo is how long players hold onto the ball before making a decision. More time = more time to weigh the options.

What is confusing about the passing? The defenders will get it forward (to ease pressure) and once it is there, the front players will be more careful with the ball to keep possession.

[DamianJMcGrath]

My confusion comes if I select Counter with Shorter Passing. Does this mean the defenders would have shorter passing instead of direct, and the attackers would have double-short passing?

[HUNT3R]

My confusion comes if I select Counter with Shorter Passing. Does this mean the defenders would have shorter passing instead of direct, and the attackers would have double-short passing?

Basically, yes, but remember - it is shortER passing, not short passing.

Defenders will pass shorter, so will be closer to mixed (coming from direct) rather than short. The attackers will pass even shorter than they do now.

It's why we keep saying, don't just add TIs. Defaults are in place. Add them if you need them.

[DamianJMcGrath]

Is there a list of exactly which TIs are basically enabled by default when a particular strategy is selected? Once I have a full list, I'll know whether manually selecting a TI will result in doubling-up or not so I'll be more informed.

Thanks

[HUNT3R]

Is there a list of exactly which TIs are basically enabled by default when a particular strategy is selected? Once I have a full list, I'll know whether manually selecting a TI will result in doubling-up or not so I'll be more informed.

Thanks

No TIs are enabled by default. The point of the TIs is to be able to adjust from the default.