Keys Open Doors - Creating an empire at Hednesford Town

[freekicksmafia]

Introduction

In a most shameless rip off Marsupian's "Pink Passion" thread, and because I fully intend on backing up my constant complaining about the match engine with at least something, I'm going to track my progress with the sleeping giant, the prestigious champions of the 1940-41 Birmingham League and 2004 FA Trophy winners, Hednesford Town. Starting as an unemployed transient with 0 qualifications travelling the UK countryside looking for work I have been taken in and to repay their kindness I will not cease until the Premier League has been won. I'm not in it for the money, me, I just want the glory.

History So Far

2014/15 From the darkness a hero emerges, and with naught but gung-ho and elbow grease a struggling mid table team claws it's way to 6th in the league with the help of Ibrahim Atiku, the Attacking Midfielder through which many goals were funneled, earning him player of the season in the Vanarama Conference North. Well done Ibrahim.

2015/16 A taste of glory becomes an addiction. After a slow start and a relegation scrap at Christmas, new signing Mathew Fletcher combines with a rotation of strikers to solidify our up front presence and lead us on an amazing push for the title, ending with a final round game with the 2nd placed team for all the marbles. Winning a comfy 3-1, Hednesford Town receives their first piece of the pie following an amazing streak of 2 goals in each of the final 4 games from Fletcher. A deserved player of the season. Also runners up in the FA Trophy after an injury to a CB and the replacement going 4.9. Complete bollocks, fined and released the very next day.

2016/17 Well we stayed up. Otherwise an uneventful season. Cheap signings, low attendance, winning games where we can and no standout players. Fletcher cannot handle the jump to the conference and we finish 11th.

2017/18 The season that should have been. Finishing 3rd in dubious circumstances (very effing dubious), a potential double is spoiled after a glorious Wembley run to lift the trophy is gutted in a complete collapse at the end of the season and an absolute joke of a playoff final that changes the definition of Fergie time.

2018/19 [np - Linkin_Park_-_Numb.mp3] Basically a monster of the week story where every week it's a different Hednesford player. Finished 12th, fulfilling the expectation of "above mid table", and that is what we will focus on.

Moving Forward

2018/19 was a horribly disappointing season after the runs we put together to win the FA trophy and finish 3rd the season earlier, and the people of Hednesford are hungry to reach the heights they deserve. In 2019/2020, infamous Staffordshire gangster (this bit is roleplaying) Joe Nash has taken over the club and given adored manager freekicksmafia a winning budget to make a winning team. With the league looming and promotion hopes high at Keys Park we now enter the preseason with a big overhaul of the squad.

Meet the Boys

Following the disappointment that was the previous season I've decided it's necessary to switch things up. Out is our midfield heavy possession play, the 4-1-2-1-2's that have brought fleeting success are now gone, the fast paced game of the 2020's Conference about to leave Hednesford's 2010's aesthetic in the dust. To win the league we need league winning goal scoring form and a killer highlight reel, so that's what we're building for.

Goalkeeper

Dean Lynch

New signing in the off season, found by surprise by long suffering director of football Fraser McLachlan and benching former keeper Conor Mitchell. 21 years old.

Fullbacks

Kyle Hammond

One of the few remaining players from last season, not great but never horrible. Probably captain this season with a cool 11/11 Ldr/Det. 23 years old.

Clive O'Vell

Loanee because it's real sparse at left back at the moment. Scouts are on it but I'm not optimistic. No glaring stat deficiencies though I would like better than 7 crossing for a wing back. 20 years old.

Central Defenders

Ricardo Santos

Only fan favourite on the squad, been with us for the last four seasons, the first three an entire contracts worth of loaning from Peterborough. Cheers Peterborough. 24 years old.

Jordan Williams

Coup of a signing midway through last season, potential to be a Championship CB, professional, consistent, and can bang a free kick if he needs to with a nice 12 there. 23 years old.

Central Midfielders

Bobson Bawling

Sierra Leone international we picked up in free agency during the off season. Hopefully brings some sorely missed experience and consistency to the midfield. 23 years old.

Mukhtar Ali

Somalian international picked up halfway through last season, originally a DM but young and has nice overall stats so I'm retraining him to play mid. 21 years old.

Attacking Midfield

Sully Kaikai

A teammate of Bawling for Sierra Leone, Kaikai is our designated set piece taker with a cool 15 free kicks and will ideally end as our second goalscorer making big runs inside and linking with O'Brien. 23 years old.

Denziel Boadu

One of those weird players where I know he's good and capable of pulling 3 points out his butthole for fun but always had problems getting the goals out of him. Sitting him behind O'Brien to try and draw defenders off and because his goalscoring is inconsistent. 22 years old.

Chay Scrivens

Great stats everywhere except for 3 in finishing which concerns me. Wasn't signed to be a major threat in that area but hopefully this doesn't come back to haunt me. 21 years old.

Forward

Andrew O'Brien

Big signing of the offseason and one I'm really hoping pans out. Currently our highest paid player on 1700 a week and allegedly a leading player for a League 2 team, 18 strength and 15 heading a slew of good stats elsewhere, plus a good determination and workrate, I'm hoping he can slot in well with our system and make the difference. Also, 15 leadership and determination and a PPM of arguing with officials, so a future captain right here. 20 years old.

Philosophy

-Finding and maintaining a good goalscorer. This has been the problem area for too long, statistical dominance and positioning leading into a 1 and 2 and a 1 in 3 striker. This will not do and so I've decided to switch to a single striker system to either force the issue with a strong impact player either pulling us through the game with a little support or causing enough disruption at the back for our midfield to come in.

-Conceding less errors. Another issue has been our fullbacks, and hopefully I'll be able to pick up a solid left back soon, because the inconsistency of the ones we've had kill countless games for us with one lazy marking job. Until then, I'm hoping our CBs can do a job and the pace of our attack prevents them from making solid runs through our area.

-Spreading the play. For the majority of the previous seasons I've either been using a defensive 4-1-2-1-2 to get possesion and smoothly pass the ball forward but I've found that strategy fails if the chain has any weak link, and in the Conference nobody has that consistency. So, after a bit of tinkering last season we're going to now use a big, powerful target man in the middle either banging them in or providing a focal point for our inside forwards and Boadu to find an opening, with Bawling providing supporting movements and our WBs making overlapping runs to draw defenders off.

Pre-season

First game and Englishman Andy O'Brien coming through with a brace AND two assists against a championship side. Color me reservedly optimistic.

So there it is I couldn't really be bothered taking screens and all that for all my players individual PPMs and instructions and whatnot when it all changes so often, I'm going to dump my results and tactics in here when applicable and hopefully you guys can help me create something great, starting with my first question: is there a better choice for a CM partnership here than a DLP-D and a BBM? Any glaring deficiencies that I should be worried about?

Cheers

[Cleon]

Your central midfield duo are a major worry. I wrote this quite recent about the central two midfielders in a 4231;

The 4-2-3-1 on Football Manager for the past few versions seems to cause people all kinds of headaches. Being a moderator on the SI Games forums, I’d have to say that this particular formation covers more than half the issues I see posted on there. People seem to use it but struggle to identify just how important the two central midfielders are. This means people pick roles that just don’t suit what is needed of the players. So hopefully these two little pieces of analysis I’ve done quite recently will make you think about which roles and duties you use on these two players and should highlight, what happens when one player is more aggressive than the other.

Here is the first bit of analysis I did where the user couldn’t understand why his midfield was getting overwhelmed and how he could be vulnerable to counter attacks.

Straight away after 25 seconds I think it is, I see it happening;

Your ball winning midfielder should be more in the area where it’s marked 1 as that’s the side he is playing on supposedly. But look how far across and aggressive he’s been when closing down the ball. It means the area he should be in is totally unmarked and free space for the opposition to use if they want. He went wild and charged the person on the ball yet the ball was passed around him. Not only is he not covering the space but in one pass he’s been took out of the game for this move. I watched the rest of the move and they actually get into your box and have a shot due to the BWM’s recklessness, he’s left your entire midfield exposed and the defenders tried to make up for it but that made them out of position too.

This is taken a minute or so after and shows another counter by the opposition and this time it exposes both your central midfielder. Just look at how high up the pitch they are. Considering the central players should be more like holding players due to the sheer aggressiveness of the shape you use when they get caught out high up the pitch they have free run to the edge of your area. The DLP was actually marking someone but he’s now left them to try to run back and deal with the other thread because the BWM was high up the pitch too. When the BWM is caught out of position it makes a domino effect and someone else somewhere in your tactic as to make up the ground and deal with the threat’s he should be dealing with. I’m less than 2 minutes into the game and it’s already a disaster.

You’ve just lost possession in this screenshot and the BWM is placed alright here. But look what he does next and how far he chases down the player who has just won the ball;

Look how far across he’s gone!! Not only that but he has allowed someone to run straight past him because he’s that focused on the ball instead of tracking the runner. This has left you exposed really bad because you now have 6 players behind the ball once the opposition makes one simple pass one second later.

Another move and he pushed up to close the ball down and yet again was passed around as he went to make the challenge. Look at your DLP he has to deal with the two players who he is in the middle of and the player who is just about to receive the ball. Whoever he decided to mark here or track will be the wrong option because he can’t be in 3 places at one time. All this because the BWM closes down extremely heavy.

Can you see the issues I was talking about earlier in the thread now? All the above screenshot were taken from the opening 3 minutes. In total for the first half alone I counted the BWM being at fault or caught out of position 17 times before I stopped counting.

That’s what I saw from that specific game and that is what happens when you use those two roles together, it doesn’t matter which way around you have the duties the same thing will still happen due to the ball winning midfielder closing down too much, even on a defend duty. While playing a high aggressive pressing game the effects of these issues might be lessened somewhat but they still exist it doesn’t solve the issue. All that happens is you move all the players that bit closer to each other and still risk being undone by counter attacks.

The thing to remember with the central duo is you don’t want them chasing all over the pitch and having to cover everywhere. You need the other players around them to still track back and pick up runners if not the two midfielders will be run ragged and no matter the roles or duties you use, they’ll all suffer the same fate. Ideally the two players should be more focused on holding their position both in defensive and attacking phases as you’d already have more than enough players in the final third due to the shape you have used.

So the idea behind them is that they sit in the middle and recycle possession and allow you to build attacks as well as being well placed to deal with any kind of counter attacks or attacks through the centre. If one of them is more aggressive than the other than this can leave you exposed and cause a huge gaps to appear when one player leaves his position and adds added pressure and responsibilities for his midfield partner. Ideally both should be similar in what they do and play as a team and not individuals.

I recently wrote some more analysis for someone else in the past week. This particular user was adamant his midfield was doing what he wanted and that the above behaviour didn’t happen. But these screenshots are took from a PKM of one of his games he uploaded. He claimed that was he saw happening was due to game breaking bugs but it wasn’t really. It was just he didn’t want to admit his midfield was far from balanced. I’m aware there are issues with defenders though but this particular issue was nothing to do with that. It was due to what his midfield was doing the reasons behind why his central defender pairing was acting strangely as it added extra pressure and responsibilities for them to do.

Let’s take a look what I wrote for him. I should add though that my tone isn’t the best with this person as they weren’t listening to anyone and was being very stubborn and just didn’t want to accept what he had, was not a balanced midfield.

This first screenshot is a classic example of the issues I was talking about before. Your central midfielder who is on an attack duty is basically a AMC in this game and is very high most of the time when attacking because you play control and are pushed up. This means that in defensive situations he struggles to get back to his MC position to help out and do his defensive requirements. That in itself isn’t a bad thing if you have players who can cover for him which you do.

However that covering playing is the DLP who is supposed to be your holding player. But because the CM was caught out high up the pitch and you are playing a very heavy pressing game, the DLP isn’t sitting and offering protection to the back four. What he is actually doing is leaving his position time and time again to cover for the CM. Now when this happens the DLP is leaving his so-called zone and chasing down players he shouldn’t have to deal with yet. He’s supposed to be a last line of defence before they get to your defenders. But because of the ground and space he is trying to cover he’s not actually doing the job he should be.

This isn’t helped at all by the fact the BWM is also caught out high up the pitch too. He also has a dilemma here because he has two players to track so whichever option he chooses will still be the wrong one because he’ll leave a player free. The free player wouldn’t be an issue if the DLP was actually in his position and doing his job. But the fact that the DLP is covering for the defensive frailties of the CM it becomes a big issues. I’ve seen this kind of situation happen a lot during the match, it’s not an isolated incident it’s a regular occurrence.

To add icing to the cake, the opposition’s striker who should be being picked up by the player you use in the defensive midfield spot – the DLP or at the very least being closer to him in terms of positioning. It now means someone else has to do this job and who does that fall to? You’ve guessed it, the central defender partnership. So if the ball is played to the striker what happens? It will mean one or both defenders will step up to deal with the threat. But this is so bad mainly for one reason and one reason only. Look how high up the field this could actually occur. It’s on the halfway line almost. That is a lot of space to be exploited in behind the defence.

All this is happening because the DLP is having to do multiple jobs and it all stems from the CM and BWM not doing what they should be doing. This means it has a massive knock on effect elsewhere through the tactic as other players then have to do much more than deal with their own responsibilities.

That’s the key thing here, it’s the balance. You think on paper the balance is right and for a less aggressive tactic maybe it would be better. But in your current set up with the current setting it’s a shambles. None of the midfield trio are doing any of the defensive jobs you think they are. From an attacking point it works I guess to a certain extent but even then I don’t think it works that well. Your shots on target ratio is awful, there is little space and movement being created and when it does happen it all comes from a central position. It’s very predictable play.

This time a slightly different scenario but still more of the same thing really. The BWM goes running to close down like a headless chicken due to his naturally heavy closing down and with your TI’s to press more, he has even more incentive to rush around. There is no real need to go charging in here and if he holds his position better and is more wise than he’d hold position and he’d actually be able to deal with the situation easier. Because he’d be able to position himself to deal with both players, the one on the ball and the one marked with number 1. It doesn’t matter is Hermann even drove forward with the ball as he’d not have any passing options because the BWM could deal with the player marked with 1 and track him easily. But no this doesn’t happen.

But a little later in the move and the screenshot looks a bit like this (this is about 3 seconds after the picture above btw)

Now the opposition’s striker might not have any actual real option here but that’s not really the point.Remember in one of the replies above when you told me that the holding player the DLP should be able to deal with situations, how’s it working out in this screenshot? Your so-called holding player is the highest player out of all three of them. So what you think is happening and what is actually happening are two completely different things.

The CM who is on attack is useless when it comes to the defensive side of things, his start position for any kind of recovery is always too high to begin with. Basically you’ve got two midfielders in the DLP and BWM for defensive responsibilities but the BWM is a bit of a liability at times too due to his closing down. This means at times throughout the job the DLP is having to abandon his game to cover for the other two-time and time again. This then in turn means the defenders are having to cover for the DLP. It’s like a gigantic domino effect, if one player doesn’t do what he should be doing then this ripples through the rest of the side and impact what the other players actually do.

One of the actual few times throughout the match that the CM is actually in a decent position. The issue here though is the BWM, he’s again charging down far too rapidly to win the ball back and when this doesn’t happen the opposition just pass straight through him. This means that yet again the DLP is stepping up far too early to deal with a threat that shouldn’t even be a threat. You are creating issues for yourself here when there is no need whatsoever. When the DLP steps up and fails to win the ball then the opposition pass to their striker and again you’re on the back foot and the defenders then have to step up and deal with it.

My favourite screenshot though has to be this next one;

This is the build up to the goal that loses you the game. Look at your holding player, what’s he holding exactly? The CM and BWM are already sprinting trying to get back as they know you’ve been found out and are being hit with a good counter attacking move, one which could have been avoided if you wasn’t as aggressive btw. But you’re setting yourself up for these types of situations time and time again.

I could provide loads more examples all showing the same things too. I think so far I’ve counted about 32 times the midfield have been at fault or not doing what they should be doing during the first 60 minutes of the game. Have a think about that for a moment. This also means then when the players do get back in time they are all very narrow and all in the same kind of space.

Still think your midfield is balanced and not adding extra pressure to the defence?

So the next time you set up a 4-2-3-1 remember what you need the central midfielders to do and pick roles that don’t leave you exposed with just one player having to cover the entire pitch. If one player has to cover for someone else then that has a massive knock-on effect elsewhere.

The key to making the 4231 work is down to the central two players and one of the reasons most people struggle with consistency because they think the central due need to support attacks and help with attacking play in the final third, but they really don't.

[freekicksmafia]

Alrighty I've changed the BBM to a CM-S and the right IF to a Support for friendlies against Southend in League 1 and Worcester in the Northern Prem and I'm fairly happy with the results. Lost 1-3 against Southend but created more chances and had better possession and then beat Worcester 3-1 but dominated the stats, 25 shots vs 1. Their goal was an own goal too so they were actually 0-1 up with 0 shots until about the 60th minute. Think I'll stick with the changes especially because Boadu was getting a lot of shots off which will be important playing behind a single striker.

EDIT: Also a new signing, 24 year old left back Michael Hoganson. Averaged 6.99 with Wycombe in League 2 previous season, not too bad, has 12 crossing so hopefully he can whip some onto O'Brien's melon

[freekicksmafia]

First game first possession and we're scored on with an easy header from a corner as if I don't have CBs on the field

Typical football manager

EDIT: 2 set pieces 2 shots 2 goals in 3 minutes I'm done with this game

EDIT: A PENALTY IN THE 9TH MINUTE AND WE'RE DOWN 0-3 FIRST GAME OF THE SEASON

EDIT: Oh wow they missed the penalty the rubber band works in my favour for once

EDIT: Big Andy pops in to cap a lovely move 2-1, we're back in it, and then 25th minute Scrivens gets past his man and pops a gorgeous one in for Bawling, 2-2 and I think my tactics are vindicated, cause those goals were absolute rubbish.

EDIT: One over the top for O'Brien in the most ugly but effiecient goal and we're back up then after the most absurd game Boadu pops in a crossbar deflection (unlucky O'Brien no HT on debut) and we win 4-2

You lot are absolutely mental thinking tactics mean anything in this game I feel like I've had years taken off my life watching that

[Cleon]

Instead of turning into an arse and ranting, why not actually put up the match so someone can do some proper analysis of it? Ranting and raving wont help in this part of the forum and any such threads will just be closed. If you want genuine help then provide the info needed in order for someone to help you, or go elsewhere.

Also cut out the swearing, I don't care how frustrated you might be, no need for it on a family forum.

[freekicksmafia]

It censors automatically doesn't it? And I'm going to analyse trends, individual games are pointless when nonsense goals decide the result in most of them

[Cleon]

It censors automatically doesn't it? And I'm going to analyse trends, individual games are pointless when nonsense goals decide the result in most of them

Beside the point. Any more bad language and you will be banned, you've had a friendly warning now.

And its not pointless. If you want help then provide the info requested. Or are you going to be one of those who moans about the game and blames everything and when pushed for actual info so someone can help you, you never post it and just continue ranting? Balls in your court now Gary....

[freekicksmafia]

The running commentary is for fun, and I will want help I just don't think individual games where goals just roll through defenders will help as much as tracking overall performance

I'm currently 3-2 up but the last goal was just straight over the top to the target man and into the goal. Not a lot of analysis needed there, Lincoln defender just can't jump high enough. It will be more interesting to see if that's the case for more of O'Brien's goals in the future or if he is capable of finishing more complex moves

[Cleon]

The running commentary is for fun, and I will want help I just don't think individual games where goals just roll through defenders will help as much as tracking overall performance

I'm currently 3-2 up but the last goal was just straight over the top to the target man and into the goal. Not a lot of analysis needed there, Lincoln defender just can't jump high enough. It will be more interesting to see if that's the case for more of O'Brien's goals in the future or if he is capable of finishing more complex moves

You use a targetman, that automatically attracts long/direct balls straight to him regardless of how you've set up to play. So don't be surprised when you see things like that happen because that's what you get with using a targetman.

[freekicksmafia]

How do you mean? Like it changes the shorter passing TI to pass short less or when someone wants to make a long pass instead they aim there?

[Cleon]

How do you mean? Like it changes the shorter passing TI to pass short less or when someone wants to make a long pass instead they aim there?

When you use a Targetman the players are told (automatically by a setting under the hood that you can't control) to find him with the ball as soon as possible or more often than usual compared to other roles. So they'll often go against what's set to do that. It's the same with playmakers, their team mates will always look to use them more than other players.

[freekicksmafia]

Hmmm well we've won 4-2, I did have it set to short passing but I suppose you can't argue with the result. Two goals through O'Brien but he got shut out by a southern prem team so I'm not getting my hopes up

Interesting they scored twice and almost three times in 10 minutes but after that missed penalty their whole game went to jelly

Questions: How do the other forward roles affect the rest of the teams play, is it more or less significant than as a targetman, considering I'd been toying with using O'Brien deep lying and Boadu attacking?

[johnnyyakuza78]

Hmmm well we've won 4-2, I did have it set to short passing but I suppose you can't argue with the result. Two goals through O'Brien but he got shut out by a southern prem team so I'm not getting my hopes up

Interesting they scored twice and almost three times in 10 minutes but after that missed penalty their whole game went to jelly

Questions: How do the other forward roles affect the rest of the teams play, is it more or less significant than as a targetman, considering I'd been toying with using O'Brien deep lying and Boadu attacking?

Targetman is a specfic 'playmaker' type of role, in so much that it makes play go through them more often. Playmakers are the other obvious one. If you don't want that behaviour then avoid those roles.

I think its a little unclear in its labelling, and most people seem to understand this behaviour from using previous versions of the game or reading about it here.

[Marsupian]

Targetman is a specfic 'playmaker' type of role, in so much that it makes play go through them more often. Playmakers are the other obvious one. If you don't want that behaviour then avoid those roles.

I think its a little unclear in its labelling, and most people seem to understand this behaviour from using previous versions of the game or reading about it here.

There is a bit of a difference between the playmaker roles (advanced/deep/trequartista/regista/enganche and I think F9) and the target man role in how they influence how the team plays. A playmaker role will make itself available often and when he does a teammate is more likely to pass to him than to someone else. A target man is searched for more aggressively as a means to force plays by winning the ball high up the pitch. Your team won't start thumping long balls up towards a lone trequartista but they will kick long balls up towards a lone target man.

[herne79]

Introduction

In a most shameless rip off Marsupian's "Pink Passion" thread

That opening line drew me in, as the Pink Passion thread is a good one.

Alas, that's 10 mins of my life I'm not going to get back, despite Cleon's initial lengthy reply which seems to have been totally disregarded. If you want to have a decent tactical discussion then great, but reducing it to anecdotal 2 line match reports and ME moaning isn't going to garner much interest.

[freekicksmafia]

I didn't disregard it at all? Changed my midfield setup based off it, I just don't think I'm going to get much out of meticulous footage analysis of set piece goals and key errors, looking more at numbers, and I play the game too much to keep coming back with detailed updates for every individual match.

Anyway, followed the starting game with a 3-1 win at home, but another weird game, had a sending off so I brought Boadu back, conceded a set piece goal but changed instructions to direct passing and clear to flanks, seems to work very well but it might have just been my spirited team talk

Dem crosses though, no big dirty headers to O'Brien yet, just movement, hopefully that will even itself out though as I can't complain about 3 goals in 2 games.

[Cleon]

You're just talking to yourself it seems without asking questions or for feedback, what do you want help with exactly or more to the point, what's the purpose of the thread?

[freekicksmafia]

Hopefully anyone who knows the game better can spot any flaws in the set up/stats before it becomes too much of an issue, your first post was exactly what I wanted + it saves me making a new thread every time I have another question about the game

[Cleon]

Hopefully anyone who knows the game better can spot any flaws in the set up/stats before it becomes too much of an issue, your first post was exactly what I wanted + it saves me making a new thread every time I have another question about the game

No-one can tell you any of that unless you either post some PKM's of matches played or upload the save game. Putting random pictures up that show stats without any context is pointless and a waste of your time in all honesty.

[RTHerringbone]

Yeah, you really need to look at stuff to see why it is happening. Sure, you attempt a load of crosses and the cross completion is crap. Why? Look at the Duties of your wing backs and their instructions. Look at the Role you have up front and the influence he has. There's tonnes of stuff that could be pointed out, but this is still essentially a bit of a ranty thread.

[freekicksmafia]

Didn't think anyone would be interested in going through those themselves to be honest so wasn't really trying to analyze every individual game, just lay out a gameplan and try and keep it on track

Yeah, you really need to look at stuff to see why it is happening. Sure, you attempt a load of crosses and the cross completion is crap. Why? Look at the Duties of your wing backs and their instructions. Look at the Role you have up front and the influence he has. There's tonnes of stuff that could be pointed out, but this is still essentially a bit of a ranty thread.

I have them with Close down less, more direct passes and stay wider, trying to bait them into getting into the position/mindset for the cross but not get dragged out of position since I already have Close down more on, doesn't seem to be doing much though and wasn't a huge factor in friendlies so might need to make a change if they don't get more happening over the next few games

[Cleon]

Didn't think anyone would be interested in going through those themselves to be honest so wasn't really trying to analyze every individual game, just lay out a gameplan and try and keep it on track

But you are ranting and moaning about individual matches or stuff that has happened in a particular match. So if you don't see the point in analysing those game then I see no point in you mentioning those incidents. You have all the knowledgeable people watching this thread so if you really want to learn start uploading games for people to see and to add context to what you're saying. Without any of that I will close the thread as its pointless and just a thread for you to moan in.

Were not trying to be funny, but you either want help or you don't.

[freekicksmafia]

Because they provide context to the questions I have regarding the save

Close the thread if you need to I just thought it'd be better having all my questions/complaints in one place and see the problem areas come up in real time

I never really trust individual games results for feedback on squad building cause they so often go either way based on the other set up and some dice rolls

EDIT: I'm scoring goals now and getting some wins but a few rounds down the line when it collapses it'll be handy to have the retrospect

[gooner4ever]

Cleon, before you close this thread for good, do you mind if I ask a question or two? I've been playing the 4-2-3-1 Wide formation a lot in FM 2015. And I agree that getting the central midfield 'right' is one of the biggest challenges of it. At least for me. I hadn't read your original post, so it came up as a pleasant surprise in this thread. Where was this case study originally posted and have you published any other analysis that could be seen as highly relevant to people who are fond of the 4-2-3-1 Wide? I'm currently refining my own tactics and analysis like this could really help in the decision making process. Thanks!

[Cleon]

Cleon, before you close this thread for good, do you mind if I ask a question or two? I've been playing the 4-2-3-1 Wide formation a lot in FM 2015. And I agree that getting the central midfield 'right' is one of the biggest challenges of it. At least for me. I hadn't read your original post, so it came up as a pleasant surprise in this thread. Where was this case study originally posted and have you published any other analysis that could be seen as highly relevant to people who are fond of the 4-2-3-1 Wide? I'm currently refining my own tactics and analysis like this could really help in the decision making process. Thanks!

From my blog the link is in my profile. There is hundreds of analysis and tactic bits on there about just about everything.

[RTHerringbone]

I have them with Close down less, more direct passes and stay wider, trying to bait them into getting into the position/mindset for the cross but not get dragged out of position since I already have Close down more on, doesn't seem to be doing much though and wasn't a huge factor in friendlies so might need to make a change if they don't get more happening over the next few games

But look at the instructions that are baked into the Roles that you can't change. Those are the ones that are affecting the cross frequency the most, and more Direct Passes won't be doing you any favours with them at that level. They are basically crossing a lot and over a lengthened distance at the moment, which is certainly why you have so many, and probably why your completion rate is so low (should really be 20-25%).

[herne79]

In the absence of questions, I'll ask some .

With your chosen mentality, how do each of the Team Instructions you have set add to or compliment your style of play?

What have you noticed about combining a Target Man (attack) with the Work Ball Into Box TI?

How is your team benefitting from not only playing with all 4 wide men with an attack duty, but also using the TI "Exploit the Middle"?

What differences have you noticed in changing your midfield set up from DLP(D) / BBM to DLP(D) / CM(S)? How well is your midfield screening your defenders for example?

From everything I've read so far, you seem to be far more focused on just bringing in better players to improve results, rather than actually critiquing your tactic to understand how it works and thus how it can be improved. Go through each setting and try to think about how they all inter-relate to each other - it'll really help.

[freekicksmafia]

Here's how we're doing so far, Andrew O'Brien seems to be working out a treat and Sully Kaikai is doing exactly what he needs to be doing but there are a couple of problems I'm struggling with.

1. Complacency is killing our cleansheets. That first loss against Nuneaton was horrific, shut them out the entire first half and even though I told them not to, they still went out there and dropped 3 easy goals. "the fans can't quite fathom the team's lack of character following this embarrasing collapse." Think this might be a man management issue and I welcome any ideas to deal with this since I would love a tasty 0 on our record somewhere, other than against Telford.

2. Cross accuracy. Following RTHerringbone's advice I removed direct passes from the wingbacks starting with the game against braintree, and the results are okay. Going from what we had to a 11/40 against Braintree made a big difference, then 6/58 was a bit less impactful though I think it was important in running Sutton ragged and then slipping through the center. A couple more quiet ones during our losses, then hitting 9/41 crosses and English Andy O'Brien gets 4 goals against Oldham. So a mixed bag.

3. Discipline. In 8 games now I've had 3 red cards and this is really problematic considering how much my lineup is weighted towards the starting eleven. Hard to pick up solid replacements in the free agent market so I don't know what I can do internally to slow this down, the man down against Chester started a vicious downhill slope.

Any ideas are welcome, playoffs are okay but I want that streamroller of a season, I feel like every game we've had so far has been very winnable until specific turning points, there hasn't been a game we've really lagged in statistically except for with goals.

[freekicksmafia]

In the absence of questions, I'll ask some .

With your chosen mentality, how do each of the Team Instructions you have set add to or compliment your style of play?

What have you noticed about combining a Target Man (attack) with the Work Ball Into Box TI?

How is your team benefitting from not only playing with all 4 wide men with an attack duty, but also using the TI "Exploit the Middle"?

What differences have you noticed in changing your midfield set up from DLP(D) / BBM to DLP(D) / CM(S)? How well is your midfield screening your defenders for example?

From everything I've read so far, you seem to be far more focused on just bringing in better players to improve results, rather than actually critiquing your tactic to understand how it works and thus how it can be improved. Go through each setting and try to think about how they all inter-relate to each other - it'll really help.

My wingers are pretty solid technically not just with pace so I'm trying to play them more as killer ball suppliers and box threats than as countering movers, so I feel like control was the right choice for that.

I think it's working pretty well so far, he's 9 goals from 8 though he seems to be scoring more poachers efforts and muscling defenders out of the box (blessed 18 strength) then finishing crossing plays, cant complain with the results. I am enjoying how much space he seems to be giving my IFs too, Sully Kaikai 7 from 8 is no joke.

Not sure if I posted a little earlier but I switched my right IF to a support at the same time as the BBM to a CM-S, has been very unoffensive so far not major mistakes and thats an A plus in my book.

The midfield change has been useful and does well to form the backbone of most attacks, but could probably be better considering the amount of goals we're leaking. We're getting a bad run of suspensions and cardings and that needs to be improved or so many easy games are gonna get wasted.

And I do critique my tactics: when it seems like a decent time to judge, like 8 games haha. 1 game at a time just doesn't usually help me for how often they can just be so crazy, but now there's problem areas I can look at and try and improve.

Also, considering a change from WB to FB but since I'm using IFs I don't know if that will take away too much width

Cheers for the input!

[RTHerringbone]

Regarding crossing, it is the Duty of the DL/R that matters. If you see what Player Instructions become available once you go to Support and use certain Roles, you'll see what I mean. You need to work out if you want people legging it early up the flanks and banging up ineffective crosses, or people supporting play up the flanks and playing more consistent passes. In a lone striker system, it may be the latter unless the AML/R are in the box early enough. It's all about defining the style of play you want.

[gooner4ever]

freekicksmafia, setting both central defenders to Ease Off Tackles (PI) has helped us with penalties, suspensions and overall discipline. Hence, it could be worth at least a try.

[freekicksmafia]

I'll give that a go, the goals we're leaking are going to kill us in the long run, 3rd worst GA is not good enough for 5th in the league. I'll try that over the next few games, see if there's an improvement. I'll probably have make some bigger changes soon anyway, 17 goals against in 8 games is rough.

[RTHerringbone]

Defending in defence is the last resort. Watch a match in full and see what coverage your midfield gives, and how out of position your DL/R are when attacks break down, and how ineffective your two Attack Duty AML/R are when defending. It is not just the responsibility of the DCs to defend.

[Marsupian]

I usually get my best disciplinary records by using the team instruction "get stuck in" so I'm not sure it's necessarily the tackling that is the problem. Could be that the problem has more to do with attackers getting goalside of your defenders or just the defenders being a bit on the dirty side.

For example with the Palermo save I often got interview questions related to the low amount of cards my team picked up and I told my team to get stuck in every game. Part of that is probably us keeping a lot of players behind the ball which reduces the need for professional fouls to prevent the opponent from getting in behind on the counter.

btw. That doesn't mean you should never play a high defense. Just that maybe playing a high defense comes at the cost of a couple of reds a season and that maybe you should look if there is a consistent problem behind the cards you pick up like attackers getting goalside of your defenders because you don't have enough pressure on the ball when you are high up the pitch against a fast attacker or because your fullbacks are getting caught high up the pitch.

[herne79]

Sorry, you really haven't answered any of the questions - if I'm brutally honest, I'm not even sure you've understood them.

You are right in one aspect though - 17 goals in 8 games is rough. But if you understood how your tactic works, you'd already know why you let in so many (and it's got nothing to do with your central defenders or goals from freekicks/corners).

Listen to RTH, it's good, concise advice.

[felley]

Well this thread took a disappointing turn after much promise

2-2 and I think my tactics are vindicated, cause those [earlier] goals were absolute rubbish.

Lines like this are bad news. So when your team does well, your brilliant tactics are the reason why... but if things go against you then the game is rigged/bugged/random etc. Do yourself a favour and listen to the friendly advice offered by people on this thread in spite of your ranting. You had the nuts and bolts of a journey of discovery about your tactic but you seem determined to torpedo it with conjecture, openly refusing to analyse your matches any deeper than the key stats.

Good luck anyway.

[freekicksmafia]

I usually get my best disciplinary records by using the team instruction "get stuck in" so I'm not sure it's necessarily the tackling that is the problem. Could be that the problem has more to do with attackers getting goalside of your defenders or just the defenders being a bit on the dirty side.

For example with the Palermo save I often got interview questions related to the low amount of cards my team picked up and I told my team to get stuck in every game. Part of that is probably us keeping a lot of players behind the ball which reduces the need for professional fouls to prevent the opponent from getting in behind on the counter.

btw. That doesn't mean you should never play a high defense. Just that maybe playing a high defense comes at the cost of a couple of reds a season and that maybe you should look if there is a consistent problem behind the cards you pick up like attackers getting goalside of your defenders because you don't have enough pressure on the ball when you are high up the pitch against a fast attacker or because your fullbacks are getting caught high up the pitch.

I think you're on to something and it seems like an issue with my player's attributes possibly leaving them lacking the pace to get back and defend a break, it seems to be the cause of most of their issues when I watch games otherwise they're technically pretty proficient.

After taking gooner4ever's advice and putting ease off tackles on both CBs, we beat Macclesfield at home 5-1 limiting them to 5 shots with Andrew O'Brien picking up two beautiful goals, bringing his tally to 11 in 9. Kaikai scored 2 as well bringing him 9 for 9 which is fine by me too. Conceded one goal off a penalty the playmaker conceded so I might have him ease off tackles too though I'm concerned that might leave the midfield too static considering how bare it is already.

My big question now is on the topic of Andrew O'Brien I was worried it might turn out to be a dud buy but he's fitting our build perfectly and I've got him on a four year contract now I'd love some advice on how to develop him well, that potential is perfect for how I'm hoping to build this club over the next few seasons and I'd really like him to meet it properly.

And his personality is so good I think I have a bit of a crush on him to be honest

EDIT: Only PPM is argues with officials, he's the bad boy of Hednesford Town but I think I can change him what moves would suit him best I severly underutilize PPMs

[Marsupian]

I'd either put him on First Touch training until it's more in line with the rest of his technical abilities or put him on a the Complete Forward role training. With his great strength, pace and agility coupled with decent off the ball and anticipation he should be giving defenders a lot of problems when he makes runs off the ball. Sadly his first touch will often let him down.

PPM's will depend on how you want to use him. He could be great coming deep to hold up the ball for your team or winning headers high up the pitch. He can also be great getting on the shoulders of defenders and bullying them with his strength and pace to get in behind them and win crosses.

Depending on how you play you could both teach him to come deep to get the ball (in which case his first touch, creativity, teamwork and vision will let him down) or teach him to try and beat the offside trap (in which case mainly his first touch, technique, finishing, jumping and anticipation could use some work). Moves into channels also depends on how you want him to play, not sure it provides much benefit over telling him to move into the channels through player instructions.

I'd consider teaching him to shoot with power as I associate that with an explosive striker like him but I'm not sure that would actually benefit his performance. I don't think there is a single PPM I'd absolutely teach this player. Might be better to just let him focus on improving his abilities instead of burdening him with training workload that won't directly improve him as a footballer.

[freekicksmafia]

I'd either put him on First Touch training until it's more in line with the rest of his technical abilities or put him on a the Complete Forward role training. With his great strength, pace and agility coupled with decent off the ball and anticipation he should be giving defenders a lot of problems when he makes runs off the ball. Sadly his first touch will often let him down.

PPM's will depend on how you want to use him. He could be great coming deep to hold up the ball for your team or winning headers high up the pitch. He can also be great getting on the shoulders of defenders and bullying them with his strength and pace to get in behind them and win crosses.

Depending on how you play you could both teach him to come deep to get the ball (in which case his first touch, creativity, teamwork and vision will let him down) or teach him to try and beat the offside trap (in which case mainly his first touch, technique, finishing, jumping and anticipation could use some work). Moves into channels also depends on how you want him to play, not sure it provides much benefit over telling him to move into the channels through player instructions.

I'd consider teaching him to shoot with power as I associate that with an explosive striker like him but I'm not sure that would actually benefit his performance. I don't think there is a single PPM I'd absolutely teach this player. Might be better to just let him focus on improving his abilities instead of burdening him with training workload that won't directly improve him as a footballer.

I've put him on First Touch now and I think I'll give it till the end of the season before I try putting any PPMs on him. Still over a goal a game and probably the best signing I've made in FM yet so I'm apprehensive about trying to change his play style at the moment, he's leading assists as well so I definitely think it's working with the game plan. Feeds so many second option goals out to Kaikai and Boadu.

What are the main differences I would need to think about if I retrained him to complete forward?

Also it is the conference so I feel like I might have trouble with depth if I start expecting a CF to spearhead attacks, haven't come across one yet in 5 seasons of the save, but then again, I'm already worried about life after O'Brien

[Marsupian]

What are the main differences I would need to think about if I retrained him to complete forward?

Retraining is the wrong word. I just like the set of attributes that are focused on when someone trains the complete forward role. I usually train every striker using the complete forward role regardless of what role they actually play. That might partly be due to my preference for well rounded players. What role they train as doesn't have to reflect the role they play on the field, it's just a set of attributes a player focuses on when training. My MC(d) for example often trains the Halfback role despite me never using it in my tactics.

Also it is the conference so I feel like I might have trouble with depth if I start expecting a CF to spearhead attacks, haven't come across one yet in 5 seasons of the save, but then again, I'm already worried about life after O'Brien

Any striker can play as a complete forward. They will just all play that role differently and in some cases it won't actually be all that "complete" of a performance. Also I'm not saying you should play with a complete forward.

btw. At the start of this thread you put together a philosophy for the club.

-Finding and maintaining a good goalscorer. This has been the problem area for too long, statistical dominance and positioning leading into a 1 and 2 and a 1 in 3 striker. This will not do and so I've decided to switch to a single striker system to either force the issue with a strong impact player either pulling us through the game with a little support or causing enough disruption at the back for our midfield to come in.

-Conceding less errors. Another issue has been our fullbacks, and hopefully I'll be able to pick up a solid left back soon, because the inconsistency of the ones we've had kill countless games for us with one lazy marking job. Until then, I'm hoping our CBs can do a job and the pace of our attack prevents them from making solid runs through our area.

-Spreading the play. For the majority of the previous seasons I've either been using a defensive 4-1-2-1-2 to get possesion and smoothly pass the ball forward but I've found that strategy fails if the chain has any weak link, and in the Conference nobody has that consistency. So, after a bit of tinkering last season we're going to now use a big, powerful target man in the middle either banging them in or providing a focal point for our inside forwards and Boadu to find an opening, with Bawling providing supporting movements and our WBs making overlapping runs to draw defenders off.

I'm not sure a long term philosophy of getting a good striker, making him a target man and not making errors is a particularly good idea but there is nothing inherently wrong with it and it certainly has a very English lower league feel to it. However when you decide that that is your philosophy make sure you stick to it and make it your focus. If you target man is going to get goals by himself and you just need to make sure you don't make mistakes why not play defensive with more players behind the ball and direct balls to your striker with maybe two fast wingers and a central midfielder going forward in support?

Another approach based on your philosophy can be a high block but with a more defensive mentality to prevent defensive mistakes and then using your target man and fast attacking midfielders to make the transition phase difficult for your opponents to deal with.

Something like this:

Mentality: Counter

Team shape: Flexible

          SK(d)

FB(s) DC(d) DC(d) WB(a)

W(a) CM(s) DLP(d) WM(s)

       AM(a/s)

       TM(a/s)

Team Instructions: Push much higher up, Close down more

Player instructions: The WM(s) depending on the type of player he is. Something like "sits narrow" and "roam from position" can work really well with the WB attacking, you can also play a more standard WM(a) with a supporting winback.

This would be something that would make sense to me from the philosophy you set up at the start of the thread. Prevent defensive mistakes with a conservative mentality, get a good striker and make him the focal point. Basically I think somewhere in between writing your philosophy and creating the tactic you slowly let go of your philosophy and started taking into account a myriad of other factors which became more important than your philosophy. When you do that you might as well not use a philosophy and decide your tactic purely on getting the best players and creating a tactic that suits them. Basically the same as telling your Assistant to put down the best formation and giving them all the role they are best at according to the game. When you do that your tactic will lack direction. Without a clear plan there is no cohesion, just 11 players playing football.

btw. I'm not saying you should change tactic immediately, if this is working well and your squad is proficient at playing it then keep at it and maybe reevaluate after the season. For the future it might be a good idea to set up a more clear philosophy and stick to it more strictly.

[freekicksmafia]

Ah righto I've never really looked to deep into developing young players since my saves never last that long, I think I'll leave him on first touch for a while since he definitely can be shut down by a bit of a press I think better control will really benefit him.

I've definitely gotten sidetracked trying to maximize my offensive output though and leaking goals has been a big issue with the season so far. When we're beating teams 8-0 away when the tactics click it's very disappointing to see a 1-1 draw at home, so I have been tinkering a little with PIs on most players. Someone said earlier easing off tackles will help with discipline and I have seen a lot less red cards and free kicks than at the start of the season and it's showing in our goal scoring record.

A more defensive shape will definitely do me some good but I'm struggling a little for depth at the moment with the quality to keep up with O'Brien and Kaikai. Mukhtar Ali is a DM by trade and I have been thinking of trying 4-1-2-3 DM wide to try and sweep up attacks and move them forward faster but we haven't lost in a while so I've not wanted to change anything.

Got an FA Cup tie with Burton (L2) next though so I think I'll swap out the AM for a DM for that game and see how it goes, will get scouts searching for WMs and work on something similar to your shape in the offseason or closer to the end of the season, will be crucial if we look like going up.

Cheers for the input!

EDIT: Didn't work, lost 0-2, for some reason they just never passed the ball to the wingers and crossing on the break was never a factor. Created a few chances with long balls but nothing completed. I feel like that gap between the midfield and wings are just too much, will try again with inside forwards next time I try it.

[herne79]

Please, if all you want to do is continue to give us a running commentary, you are better off moving this thread to the Career Updates forum.

If you want to have a tactical discussion, then discuss your tactic.

People have supplied you with a lot of useful comments already, which you are disregarding. If you believe that Cleon has advised you to change your original BBM to a CM(s) then you really haven't understood that post. Likewise, giving your two central defenders a PI to Ease off Tackles is not the reason why you won your next match 5-1.

Just stop for a minute, re-read and (more importantly) understand the advice you have already had.

[Cleon]

Pretty much what herne79 says really. You're not talking about anything tactical really and doing a running commentary of your career instead. Either add a tactical element or the thread will have to be closed.

And its clear you don't really want help because I've asked for PKM's etc and you don't want to provide them. Which is a shame on your part as you'd have known every single issue wrong days ago if you played along as myself and a few others were all ready to look the matches.

[callamity]

I have a 4231 wide and play with it alot, whenever I use this formation I use the 2 cms on a defend duty, with the amc on support.

just a tid bit on the end of the above

you will struggle to get the advice you want if you dont provide the right info or ask the right questions.

[Blinklys]

I have a 4231 wide and play with it alot, whenever I use this formation I use the 2 cms on a defend duty, with the amc on support.

Same here. This is one of the most interesting formations in FM, because its hard to make it work like a real life 4231. Its essential to have the two CMS on defend duty (you can get away with having one on support if your team is vastly superior though). I also have the AMC on support, to make use of the space between CMS and the striker, and to make him track back when defending. I also find it useful to have the striker on attack duty, preferably a strong complete forward, to stretch the defence a bit.

[callamity]

I might give that a go, I usually play a dlf on attack duty to good effect, again a big strong player so should be easy to try out

[freekicksmafia]

Well after 20 games we've reached top of the table with a game in hand, spent a few games two CM-Ds in the middle and end up with this

Not sure what to think

Just complete abandonment of position from my CBs for two ridiculous goals after controlling everything about the game

Complacency is imbalanced and needs fixing

[HUNT3R]

My first thought is that 4 shots ON target from a total of 15 shots, is extremely poor.

[RTHerringbone]

It was the tactic that was imbalanced. Look at the shots on target! You need to be operating at around 50%+ on target. See who was missing and why.

[RTHerringbone]

Ha! Posted at the same time.