FM15 - 4312 - Cleon and Herne help would be appreciated.

[Sussex Hammer]

Firstly I do appreciate your help gents.

So the 4312. An idea I liked from Rashidi's 4312 but with the odd tweak down really to the strength of Enner Valencia's goal rate as a CF A. However if he doesn't score we can be in trouble.

Clearly possibly too attacking and aggressive but that's down to my inability to defend. However attacking has it's own problems as against some teams who sit deep it can also have it's struggles. For instance having 25-30 chances, half of them on target, 4 or 5 CCC and yet drawing or losing to a team who creates half as many opportunities.

However the main issue is getting battered away at the likes of Spurs, Liverpool and Chelsea. The odd win here and there and I have won say 3-0 at the Emirates but then the next week I'll get done 3-0 away at Leicester!!! Confusion and bafflement reign supreme!!!

For starters I am playing FMC so no heat maps but these are three games I have chosen to give you some idea.

The first two are my most recent Capital One Cup Semi Final against Spurs. Home and Away. In this tie you will note my experiment with a CM D with close down less.

The other game is away at Everton. It in fact was a typical game for me. Went one up and dominated but didn't put chances away and in the second half paid for it and was hanging on.

Re what Herne said is interesting because I checked tackles made and in two of the three games Mark Noble CM D or DLP D was indeed making more tackles than my BWM's.

Anyway a lot of screenshots!!

[herne79]

Any pkm? I don't play FMC, so don't know if you can?

Also, can you please post your tactic detail? I don't know your TIs/PIs, but if I remember you are using attacking or control + fluid?

In the mean time, something does spring out at me, which we talked about earlier. 2 x BWM(S) + 2 x CWB(A) I would expect to see your flanks exposed and a massive gap behind your DLP(D) or CM(D) as he gets sucked over to the respective wing to try to cover. Try to picture your CWB(A) caught up field, your BWM(S) running round like a loose cannon, while your DLP(D) is over on that flank covering and thus nobody in central midfield to pick up the pieces.

Combine that with your high risk mentality and a fluid shape which adds individual creativity and some teams will rip you up.

I'm kind of exaggerating to illustrate my point, but that's what I'd expect to see defensively.

[Sussex Hammer]

-------------------DLF S---------CF A-------------------

---------------------------AM A--------------------------

----------------BWM S---DLP S---BWM S--------------

CWB A/S------CD D---------------CD D--------CWB A/S

---------------------------SK A--------------------------

Attacking/Control - Fluid

TI's - Play out of defence (have experimented taking this off), stop GK dist, Stay on feet (sometimes)

PI's - Front three - Close Down Much More, Tackle harder (Rashidi's high block suggestion), Move Into Channels,

-------BWM's and CWB's, play less risky passes

-------GK distribute to full backs. Did experiment taking this off as thought maybe my full backs hadn't got good enough passing but to no avail.

Not sure about PKM's. Not up to date with my technical skills!!

[Sussex Hammer]

Absolutely agree with your sentiments, quite clearly I am ok ish on the front foot but if things break down I am torn apart.

Without trying to jump straight into major changes I took on board your midfield ideas. I therefore changed from a BWM S/DLP D/BWM S to a BWM S/DLP D/BBM S with hold position on the BWM S. I also changed to a standard/fluid strategy.

Had the BBM on the side of the CF A as I do know if you play a CF A you need support. Was a little nervous however about playing a CF A, BBM and a CWB A on the same side as I thought it might be too offensive.

Incredibly I beat Chelsea 5-0 at home with the first three goals coming from corners!! (I never score from corners!!) At 3-0 and half time I switched to a counter/fluid set up and changed the BWM S to a BWM D and swapped the CWB A to a support duty, although I am not sure if having 4 players with "less risky passes" isn't the PI to have with a counter instruction?

What I did notice is Obiang only played 18 passes as a DLP D compared to previously where the DLP D plays the most passes. Ok I took Obiang off at half time as he had a yellow card but even doubling 18 passes makes 36 and that was still lower than the BWM, BBM and AM. Was a very intriguing stat that.

Not going to get too excited because three goals were from corners, Chelsea had as many chances so could have won 5-0 themselves and I have had this before when a new tactic does well first game and seems to level off after that. However I didn't get hit on the break and there did seem less gaps.

[herne79]

I just looked, you can get pkms of matches from FMC - here's how:

Go to your Schedule screen, highlight a match and click the View Match button bottom right (outlined as follows).

Once the following match screen appears, hit the button top right that looks like a computer disk (outlined):

Save the file when prompted by the onscreen box. Remember the location of the file save.

Go to a file sharing site such as Dropbox, Mediafire, etc. Upload your newly saved pkm file, then just copy/paste the url link you are given back into this thread.

[Sussex Hammer]

There you go Herne, thanks for that. Have uploaded the matches above plus one other I won with the same tactic that was used in the defeats and have also included the 5-0 win over Chelsea with the changes. Really appreciate it.

http://www.mediafire.com/download/uft9hda3d9yxhpd/West+Ham+v+Tottenham.pkm

http://www.mediafire.com/download/2b9bcn7dk7ijme1/Chelsea+v+West+Ham.pkm

http://www.mediafire.com/download/tdp54fu68d4c3tw/West+Ham+v+Chelsea.pkm

http://www.mediafire.com/download/75g19cwoak7m71k/Everton+v+West+Ham.pkm

http://www.mediafire.com/download/b68x8rs267js6xn/Tottenham+v+West+Ham.pkm

[Sussex Hammer]

Well since the 5-0 win against Chelsea with the little changes I have lost 2-0n to Athletico and 3-1 to Palace!!! This is what I cannot get my head around is that the same team can beat Chelsea 5-0 and score merely one in the next two games conceding 5. It just makes it so difficult to work out what's going right or wrong!

Maybe it's partly down to "play out of defence" and "play risky passes". My back four have 14, 12, 10 and 10 for passing stat and even less for vision. Maybe I should just get them hoofing it up the pitch rather than trying to pass it out. My midfield are better with Obiang, Song, Kranevitter, Romero, Noble, Poyet. All decent passers although Noble, Obiang and Kranvevitter are the three with the better vision.

[Sussex Hammer]

You seem to always want to play extremely attacking. Even if you had the DLP on a defend duty, you are pushing both of your BBM's forward, in addition to two CWB(A) and essentially neglecting the midfield in a change of possession. Rather than trying to overwhelm the opposition by sheer numbers, you could benefit from thinking about ball movement and dangerous possession. That's exactly what the opposition does to you when you have 30+ shots and still lose the game - their use of the ball was much more dangerous.

That's the problem. I go attacking because some of the time it works whereas defensive, standard, seem an open invitation for the opposition to come at you. Even just on the Palace game I was 2-1 down so I go to control to try and get one back and concede another. I just can't defend, or attack for that matter!

[herne79]

This is just 5 mins into your 2nd leg loss vs Spurs.

Pic 1 - Jones has just won the ball from Jenks and Valencia, passes it up to Kane. Noble comes all the way across to challenge Kane as both Song and Romero are up field. Note all the space behind Noble that Lamela is about to run into.

Pic 2 - Noble is challenging Kane, but look at all of Kane's passing options. Bernard going to provide an overlap, Dembele and Eriksen are both running ahead of Song into short space behind Noble, Romero doesn't know whether to cover Dembele, Eriksen or Lamela, and Lamela is enjoying all the space.

Pic 3 - The ball went inside short to Eriksen. Noble is now in no-mans land on the flank, so Romero (MCL) has now been sucked all the way across to challenge, leaving Lamela even more space behind.

With such an aggressive midfield (2 x BWM) + very aggressive fullbacks + aggressive mentality = a poor defensive screen.

I know you have used Rashidi's 4312 tactic (with some tweaks), but he developed that tactic over a number of seasons and (importantly) developed his players accordingly to fit that tactic. As good as West Ham's players are (and they are good), they haven't been moulded over several seasons to make proper use of the tactic yet.

If you want to aspire to using such an aggressive tactic, then great - develop your players accordingly over a few seasons. Whilst they are developing however, I'd take out some of the aggression and gradually add it back in as your players develop. Think of it as evolving your club's style of play over a few seasons.

Stick with 4312 from the start if you like no problem - I think it would be awesome starting with Cleon's Defensive mentality articles, and developing from there. 3 articles are found here http://sisportscentre.com/category/the-school-of-defensive-arts-2015/

TL;DR - Things to consider:

- Start with setting up a 4312 with a defensive mentality. Player Roles and Duties probably don't need to change that much.

- A midfield trio of BBM - DLP(D) - BWM(S) or (D) for tough matches can be pretty solid. Hold Position PI !

- WB(A) will be less aggressive than CWB(A) while you wait for your squad to develop. Hell, use WB(S) if it helps. Remember - a WB(S) will largely stay in line with the ball to provide support, a WB(A) will be running ahead of the ball, while a CWB(A) will be standing in the old North Bank shouting abuse at their goalie like the rest of us used to do .

- AM(S) will help improve midfield cover rather than your AM(A), but still give good forward support.

- If using a defensive mentality, you could probably push the def line a little higher to help contain the space between the CDs and your MCs. Your CDs should have good positioning and anticipation to compensate.

- For TIs, check through Cleon's article. There is no need to copy his TIs, but you should get an idea of where he is coming from. If it helps, check through my thread on my 4321 Christmas Tree formation, which is not dissimilar to what you are trying to do and may give you some further ideas of how to set things up. http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/435387-Zone-14-and-the-Christmas-Tree

Finally (phew !) don't get disheartened. With the players at your disposal, and with your chosen formation (which I absolutely think suits West Ham down to the ground), you really aren't far off cracking the nut. Just remember it takes a little time to develop into the aggressive style you seem to be after, so be patient .

[edtheguy]

I know you have used Rashidi's 4312 tactic (with some tweaks), but he developed that tactic over a number of seasons and (importantly) developed his players accordingly to fit that tactic. As good as West Ham's players are (and they are good), they haven't been moulded over several seasons to make proper use of the tactic yet.

If you want to aspire to using such an aggressive tactic, then great - develop your players accordingly over a few seasons. Whilst they are developing however, I'd take out some of the aggression and gradually add it back in as your players develop. Think of it as evolving your club's style of play over a few seasons.

Some very well explained, helpful, and spot on stuff in that entire post.

About the part quoted above- To support that point, I remember when Rashidi was posting his WBA days and I believe he even said at one point he used a 4312 with CM's instead of BWM's because the squad he had wasn't ready for the final tactic yet. It didn't happen overnight.

If you have a plan and stick with it you will get there though. I had some success with a similar imitation of his 4312, but only after I had established my team as a good premier club with a more cautious 4-3-3 (or 4-1-2-2-1, whatever).

[Sussex Hammer]

Thanks guys much appreciated and Herne a big thanks for taking your time on that, it looks so obvious what the problem is when it's laid out for you like that.

I think part of the reason I get disheartened is every time I start a save I do well first season. In FM15 never lower than 6th in the first year and always have some cracking results and a settled tactic. Second season I add to the squad, usually a Romero or a Kranevitter and one or two others. Full back wise I can't get in much better than Cresswell and Jenkinson currently because my rep is still not high so better players won't come and I have pretty reasonable passers in midfield so certainly end up with a better squad than first season.

However, the wheels in the League come off to an extent second season. I do well in the Cups but struggle mid table in the League and of course I expect better because I have a better squad. I know that if you do well first season teams can change the way they play against you second as you no longer have the element of surprise but as I am playing FMC I also think "hold on morale isn't as important, neither is tactical familiarity and I have a better squad so what is going on?" That is when I start tinkering and by the time I have resaved my tactic 10 times I can't remember the tactic that beat Aston Villa away 8-0 which must have been doing something right!!!!

Anyway so let's look at a new start.

-------------------DLF S---------CF A--------------------

-------------------------AM A/S--------------------------

----------------BWM S---DLP D---BBM S---------------

WB A/S------CD D---------------CD D--------WB A/S

---------------------------??-----------------------------

Ok if we start with the above.

1. If I start as defensive what fluidity would you suggest? Think this setting has always confused me. If you go by the book I guess flexible, although I have always used fluid. Then again I have heard that very fluid can make your side act more like a unit although on the flip side can increase creative freedom? So suggestions welcome.

2. Gone with the BWM S for home games and D for away, with hold position active, with a DLP D in the middle and BBM S on the right. My rationale being a BBM would be better covering the space left by the CF A. Is that smart thinking or would the more defensive of the two, (assume the BWM) be better covering behind the farthest forward striker?

3. Is a high block on the front three (close down more, tackle harder) a good thing or bad, or does it depend on mentality?

4. Technically I could have only the one attack duty in that team and that's the CF A. Is that enough bodies in the box?

5. Have never got the left sided striker really scoring although I believe it is tough to get two regular goal scorers? In Carroll and Sakho I have two players who I don't get enough out of them so is it worth trying to make the DLF S more of a mobile target man as they are both strong if nothing else. Maybe dribble less as a PI?

6. Talking about the front three again Rashidi had all three move into channels. However he played a AM A, DLF S, F9 S,. With my three pulling into the channels would they not all be running away from the ball? Should I not be looking at say one coming deep, one driving forward and one holding position maybe?

7. Goalkeeper or Sweeper Keeper? And how would you place his distribution?

8. PI's of play less risky passes on side midfielders and full backs. Is it overkill on anything from defensive to standard mentality especially if you have a play out of defence TI? (Is that also overkill with a back 4 of average passing skills) However on the other side of the coin I would rather the back 4 give it to the players who can pass a football. Plus do crosses technically count as passes so would play less risky passes put the cross count down?

9. TI's? People say to me how do I want to play>? Well looking at the players I have there are some good passers in midfield and two good crossers of the ball at full back and all my strikers are good in the air and one or two have strength and pace but I don't want to play lump it forward Allardyce style. I want to string some passes together and play through the AM but at the same time get the ball wide and cross the ball in for as I say strikers with good heading skills. But I don't want to go route one and be a predictable one trick pony. I had this down to a tee in patch two and Valencia and Sakho got a lot of goals from crosses but the last patch nuked crosses somewhat. So with that in mind would you have any advice on TI's to add?

Thanks in advance.

[herne79]

ok, lots of questions, hopefully you aren't trying to overthink things .

First and foremost, if you are going down the Defensive mentality route to start, have you read and understood Cleon's articles? I don't mean that to sound patronising at all, but it is important .

On to your formation - I'm going to assume you have a typo in there and you mean to have a DLP(D) in central midfield, not a DLP(S). Also, have you tried pairing the DLF(S) with an AF rather than a CF(A)? The DLF will be dropping deep, and (to an extent) so will the CF, which means you may be dragging the opposition defence towards your midfield and limiting space there - not a bad thing if you are using a pacy striker who can nip in behind that advancing defence to latch on to through balls, but Carroll, Sakho and Valencia aren't that. An AF will help to push the op defence deeper, and help to increase space in front for your midfield to work in.

Your questions:

1) You can't go far wrong with Flexible. More fluidity increases compactness front to back as players try to help each other out more, and adds to their creativity. Do you really want Tomkins trying to be creative? Limit it and let the roles/duties take charge. Your def line will also be pushed a little higher with a more fluid team shape, which may cause issues.

2) Playing home or away is completely irrelevant. Don't change your tactic because of that. Just make small adjustments (if needed) based on who you are playing, regardless of location. Who to play your BBM behind? Try it out, both ways can work - behind the DLF you may get some nice overlapping runs, behind the CF (or AF ) you may cover the space better.

3) I'd certainly use Close Down (Much) More on my 2 strikers, possibly on the AM as well. Not sure about Tackle Harder - I know Rashidi uses it but never tried it myself.

4) No reason why not. You still have an advanced outlet for counters and using Defensive mentality is mainly about patient build up play. Maybe one of your fullbacks could have an attack duty, but it would need to be balanced by your midfield on that side. Don't have an attacking fullback on the same side as your midfield runner.

5) A DLF(S) is a mobile targetman, so no need to try to change it. Dribble Less PI could be useful, but only if you think they are trying to dribble too much already.

6) Yes. Refer back to my comment on maybe using an AF.

7) How good is your keeper's Rushing Out, Anticipation and Acceleration? If good then a SK defend or support could be an idea. If not good, then a GK is fine as you won't be playing with a high def line. If his distribution is good, you could use him to start swift counters. If not, then slowing the pace down and rolling out would be better.

8) Do you want your side mids and fullbacks to be acting like playmakers? I wouldn't so I wouldn't use that risky passes PI on them, but that's my personal choice - if you think it benefits your tactic, then leave it in. Experiment with Play out of Defence. Your midfield should be dropping quite deep in defence anyway, so your defenders should have someone close by to pass to. Watch the centre back's passing completion rates to help you decide. Less risky passes can help keep crosses down (I think - could be wrong there), but with strong front men, would you want to?

9) TIs I'm afraid are going to be down to you and how you want the team to play. Read Cleon's and my threads linked above to give yourself ideas - remember, the idea of using a Defensive mentality to begin with is to play low risk football, so any TIs you add should be based around that premise. Take your West Ham save, create a duplicate save of it, and use that as your test bed to try out ideas before letting them loose on your actual career save. I would however consider moving your def line higher on occasion, you don't always want to be inviting too much pressure onto your back line.

Stick at it, you'll get there - and then stop tinkering .

[Cleon]

I will add my thoughts on this tonight not got the time atm sadly

[gooner4ever]

Sussex Hammer, since I have very little experience with this formation, I'm not the right person to offer tactical advice. In general, however, and from my own experience I can tell you that as far TIs and PIs are concerned, less if often more. I've had more success with 'less-refined' tactics. So, you should definitely avoid overthinking and overdoing.

This is a very nice thread you have here and I just wanted to offer you some encouragement. Keep at it, you will make it!

[Sussex Hammer]

Herne, Many thanks once again fantastic reply and gives food for thought indeed.

Cleon, Thank you look forward to your input.

Gooner, Many thanks I appreciate it.

Well I have played four games with a very stripped down basic 4312 with the minimum TI's and PI's.

This is it.

TI's merely - Push higher up, Stop Opposition Keeper and Stay on Feet.

PI's - Only Hold position on the BWM and distribute to full backs on the GK.

As I say a very basic beginning which hopefully I can add to. The only change I made during games was swap from fluid to flexible at half time. TBH I didn't see and awful lot of difference purely by watching.

These are the games....

As you see a mixed bag.

Started off very nicely against Athletic and a good victory. Nice to get my DLF S grabbing two goals. One thing I did notice was Tomkins pass rate which was only 6 completed passes from 16 before taking him off after 65 mins. Quite a poor completion rate so I wondered if this was due to taking off "play out of defence" which I used on my attacking tactic. Looking back through my fixtures list though I didn't see a major reason for it. In the win over Huddersfield he completed 18 of 26 passes whereas in an earlier season 2-1 win over Southampton when I played attacking with play out of defence added he completed 21 out of 27 passes.

Let's look at the four games above. His pass ratio with the defensive tactic are :

15 played 6 completed, 30 and 17, 32 and 19, 26 and 18.

Let's pick four games with similar score lines when I played my attacking tactic with play out of defence as a TI.

24 played 20 completed, 21 and 15, 41 and 31, 27 and 21.

Not an awful lot of difference it seems between pass rates with playing defensive with no PI and attacking with play out of defence added. Not sure as yet how using defensive but adding the play out of defence TI will affect his pass rates but we can look at those from Jenkinson the wing back because in the attacking tactic he had the PI of "play less risky passes" added.

So with the Defensive tactic with no PI Jenkinson's pass rates were.

35 played 28 completed, 45 and 38, 43 and 34, 38 and 31

With the attacking tactic with PI of "play less risky passes" in similar result games.

43 played 35, completed, 46 and 29, 55 and 44, 47 and 39.

So I guess you could argue he played more passes in an attacking tactic with play less risky passes than he so far has done in a defensive tactic with no PI however his completion rates are very similar so it doesn't look much different. Key passes were also similar so no great difference between the two,. It will be interesting to see if "play less risky passes" is added to his PI in a defensive tactic although I hope for clarification from Cleon as to whether "play less risky passes" has an impact on crosses?? What I don't want is "play less risky passes" having an impact on possession. If a less risky pass is not on then is he more liable to lose possession than he would if he had no such PI? Decisions and composure I suspect could play a part,.

Now the impact on attack and chances created.

In the games with the defensive 4312 :

17 shots, 9 on target, 1 CCC and 3 goals.

15 shots, 7 on target, 2 CCC and 0 goals.

24 shots, 8 on target, 2 CCC and 1 goals.

18 shots, 6 on target, 2 CCC and 2 goals.

62 shots, 30 on target, 7 CCC and 6 goals......Totals

Now let's look at four games when I used the attacking tactic but with a same score line.

19 shots, 8 on target, 1 CCC and 3 goals.

16 shots, 5 on target, 1 CCC and 0 goals.

11 shots, 4 on target, 0 CCC and 1 goals.

23 shots, 8 on target, 1 CCC and 2 goals.

69 shots, 25 on target, 3 CCC, and 6 goals....Totals

The totals reveal that with the defensive tactic I had less shots but more on target and more CCC's however not by a landslide. What I have noticed so far in the difference between the two tactics is when attacking I had a lot more men around the penalty area and it could get congested. However with the defensive tactic I note less support around the area and see my strikers especially having long shots. This possible due to either lack of passing options or a lack of composure so not sure on how to get more support in what is essentially a defensive mentality.

Lets take a look at the oppositions chances.

In the games with the defensive 4312 :

9 shots, 5 on target, 0 CCC and 0 goals.

10 shots, 6 on target, 0 CCC and 2 goals.

6 shots, 2 on target, 1 CCC and 1 goals.

7 shots, 4 on target, 0 CCC and 1 goals.

32 shots, 17 on target, 1 CCC and 4 goals....Totals

Now let's look at four games when I used the attacking tactic but with a same score line. game games as above used as examples.

11 shots, 7 on target, 1 CCC and 0 goals

15 shots, 6 on target, 2 CCC and 2 goals

3 shots, 1 on target, 1 CCC and 1 goals

8 shots, 4 on target, 1 CCC and 1 goals

37 shots, 18 on target, 5 CCC and 4 goals.....Totals

Ok the teams used as an example in the attacking tactic were not the same bar I used another Arsenal result that was a 0-2 defeat but again not a great difference in chances conceded between attacking and defensive tactics bar conceding more CCC's with an attacking tactic. My TI's for the attacking tactic were generally stay on feet, stop GK distribution, play out of defence and sometimes play narrower.

Ok it's hardly a Nobel prize winning experiment but from what I can see there doesn't seem to be a great deal of difference in the nitty gritty of football which is how many you score and how many you concede between my attacking tactic and this new attempt at a defensive tactic in it's current form I hasten to add. In all 8 games bar one that was even I also had more possession but of course it's what you do with that possession that counts.

The new tactic attempt clearly needs some TI's and possibly PI's to get the best out of the players. My general concerns so far is of course that I am still conceding goals and not scoring enough considering I dominate possession. It's pointless having 64% of the ball if you end up drawing 1-1. And I need to cut down the wasteful long shots to my play and also get the best out of certain roles. I did notice that in it's current form the BBM is not really doing anything apart from running up and down. His tackling efforts are very low, no assists and no goals and for players like Romero or Song you need more contribution.

So in a nutshell I am none the wiser and would appreciate some TI and PI ideas. Sorry for droning on Thank you,.

[herne79]

1) How are you conceding? By that I mean how did you lose possession, and how did you fail to win it back? Not "Giroud at the near post with a header" so to speak.

2) I like your midfield, I like the change to WB(A), although against teams with great wingers (Arsenal) don't forget you could change to BWM(D). The right flank is improving. But what about the left flank? WB(A) + BBM is basically 2 runners who could get caught out of position. Personally I play WB(S) + BBM. Have you tried that?

3) What have you taken from Cleon's articles that discuss the defensive mentality and how attacking it can be?

[Blinklys]

Class act thread. Herne I alway look forward to your advice. Your thread on the christmas tree with Arsenal was amazing! Would love to see you do something similar with, say Liverpool.

[herne79]

Cheers.

Emre Can would make a great libero...

[Sussex Hammer]

Herne, Firstly re your above post.

2. My midfield - The left flank I have a BWM S - Hold position there, the BBM is on the right side of midfield. Have just gone basic with the two WB A so far so going to make adjustments however I am not finding the BBM really offers anything attacking wise or defensively so far.

3. Read Cleon's articles and they are fascinating but I am struggling a bit to see how I can incorporate some of what he speaks about in my tactic. I am considering maybe taking off "push higher up" as a TI because despite the defensive strategy I am still getting caught out behind. I really don't know what to do about TI's or PI's.

1. Here are the goals conceded since I tried out the tactic in post 16.

Firstly Arsenal.

First goal.

Perfectly placed defensively at a throw in. Grobkreutz throws to Ramsay who cushion headers back. It's at this point that Sakho inexplicably leaves Chamberlain and meanders back up front leaving Chamberlain free to receive an easy pass from Grobkreutz. Bad marking ensues with my players just following the ball like a bunch of 10 year olds and Walcott turns Balanta far too easily for Walcott to shoot home.

It's a poor goal to concede. Sakho's wandering off is probably impossible to stop because defending throw in's isn't specialist in FM15. You can't make him stick with that man but it is basic schoolboy stuff.

It's also irritating because Walcott is poor or average in everything bar finishing, acceleration, agility, fitness and pace yet he makes Balanta look a right mug. Balanta has anticipation 16, marking, 18 and positioning 15 but you wonder if 12 for decisions and 14 for concentration has let him down here.

However what causes the goal IMO is a lack of a tackle somewhere so maybe "stay on feet" has partly caused this?

[video=youtube;1bDTwTaC9hM]

[Sussex Hammer]

Second goal :

Long kick from the Arsenal keeper crates a duel in the air between two players in Chamberlain and Cresswell who ae as bad as each other on the air and Arsenal just get lucky it falls to Ramsay. Arsenal can pass well and work it out wide to Chamberlain and he takes on Cresswell and crosses. Walcott is credited with the goal but you can argue it comes off Balanta.

My conclusion is that possibly it's been partly caused by the lack of any sort of tackle. Players are staying on feet (as instructed) but they aren't closing down space by doing that they in fact are creating it. Obviously in FMC 15 you have not OI's so can't show Chamberlain onto his weaker foot or something similar but I'd still rather Cresswell makes a challenge there.,. Even if he ends up on his back side it's preferable to allowing Chamberlain the freedom of Wembley!

[video=youtube;1bDTwTaC9hM]

[Sussex Hammer]

Now Ipswich :

Yet again it's Cresswell and Balanta at fault along with the 4312's weakness on the flanks and it seems "stay on feet" is causing an issue yet again. We need to make some tackles so I may consider going to normal tackling.

[video=youtube;wWrVEWzqwI0]

Huddersfield's goal was a header from a corner and you can't do much about those in FM15.

[Sussex Hammer]

Besiktas goal :

This is from my latest match and is almost a carbon copy of Walcott's first Arsenal goal from a throw in although rather than Arsenal's good passing it looks like a lucky punt that Ba controls with his face before shooting home. Poor goalkeeping (you can't get done at near post like that) and ball watching with a lack of tackles seem once again to be an issue.

[video=youtube;hNJOG5D6Mw4]

[herne79]

Arsenal's 2nd and Ipswich's goals are interesting.

For Arsenal's 2nd, pause it 31 seconds in. You're in good shape, but then Cresswell backs away from Ox to leave him unmarked. You're AMC also doesn't bother tracking back much - I guess you still have him on an attack duty? Nolito then just runs through into space and eventually picks up Ox - Walcott makes a simple run to the near post and scores. I think it has more to do with a lack of tracking back by the AMC and poor marking by Cresswell.

For the Ipswich goal, watch your AMC again. At 15 secs in, he just lets the Ipswich midfield runner run past him, who then receives the ball and gets involved in the build up that leads to the goal. In the final phase, your (I guess?) DLP is too busy running backwards rather than picking up Sagbo who just muscles him out of the way for the goal.

How to stop it? That's the million dollar question . Perhaps more marking or pressing TI or PI for certain targeted individuals? Perhaps they do need to get stuck in more. Trial and error really. I'd also think about a support duty for the AMC.

BTW - I'm away for a about a week after today, so I won't be able to contribute during that time.

[Sussex Hammer]

Thanks Herne.

I must confess I don't see any real difference with close down much more on the front three or nothing at all added. Obviously FM16 is the one now so 15 is obsolete but tracking back of any sort of AM or striker is woeful so you are basically carrying 3 players who do very little defensive work at all. Amaltifano's teamwork is only 12 but his work rate is 15 so you would expect to see a bit of effort but I still think any sort of tracking back in FM15 for any forwards or AM's is poor.

I'll try the AM with a support duty but have done so before with my attacking tactic and at the time didn't see much difference. It's a difficult to get right really as a consistent attacking or defending performer.

I'll also try upping the tackling,. Thanks for your help.

[herne79]

How's it going Sussex? Or is this now put to bed in favour of smashing up the prem in FM16?

[Sussex Hammer]

How's it going Sussex? Or is this now put to bed in favour of smashing up the prem in FM16?

Hi Herne. Not put to bed as yet as doubt I'll buy FM16 until Feb/March time unless 15 gets so frustrating that I bin it and try 16!!!

It's been very up and down. As you know I was trying this :

-------------------DLF S---------CF A--------------------

---------------------------AM A/S--------------------------

----------------BWM S---DLP D---BBM S---------------

WB A/S------CD D---------------CD D--------WB A/S

---------------------------SK S-----------------------------

Flexible / Standard

Started off great with a fabulous 5-0 win over Porto which was probably my most complete performance in FM15 but as the games went on it just seemed to stop working and even got done 3-0 away at Porto with both teams using same formations. Porto didn't have a sniff first game and I dominated them again at their place but lost 3-0!!

I find this the most frustrating thing about FM. How you can dominate games and have three times as many chances as the opposition but draw 1-1 for instance. And I have noticed that a little change can set you up on a run again. I cannot for the life of me work out how I can win 4-0, 4-1, 4-2, 1-0 then go 1-1, 0-2, 1-3, 1-0, 1-1, 1-3 and lose to bottom of Championship Bristol City one week then beat Man City 1-0 the next. I'm always so inconsistent. One week you rack up the chances in front of goal and the next you only have a couple of shots on target. I'm playing FMC and didn't think morale had an effect but I firmly believe looking at my results that on a 6 match unbeaten run a draw or a loss will suddenly effect the momentum in a way that you can easily lose the next three.

I also find that in close games even though I have dominated the AI will pull a rabbit out of the hat. So many times I should be 3 or 4 up and will get done by a late equalizer or winner from a free kick, penalty, corner or some ridiculous piece of skill. All this after their goalkeeper has performed miracles at the other end!! The below is a perfect example of what happens regularly.

[video=youtube;TmLEyb_M-z4]

What on earth is Winston Reid doing here>? Gets a yellow card and starts walking off the pitch as if he thinks it's a red and leaves me one defender short for the free kick. No matter what a players stats are this is just wrong on so many levels.

The second video is below as I can't insert two in one message....

Re The Tactic - I found that the BBM didn't really contribute at all in any phase of play. Very little in the way of assists or goals and very low on any tackling stats. I am swayed to go back to a BWM on the right but leave the one on the left with "hold position". The AM and DLF as always are a major irritant. One week the DLF will score two then won't contribute for the next 5 games and the AM is really in an out of games.

Still not quite sure on fluidity either. Juggled between flexible/structured and fluid and didn't really see any difference. One week I used structured and beat Arsenal away brilliantly but the next week struggled at home to beat Stoke. Am wondering if using say structured away from home and possibly fluid (with a bit more creativity) at home may be a good way to approach things?

I also noted that in a 4312 my DLP D seems to make more tackles than anyone else, should this be right with either one or two BWM's in the side?

No midfield roles really help well enough defensively I find in a 4312. Against the likes of Spurs, Liverpool, United etc I am just blown away at their place no matter what I do. WB's on support, AM on support it's all just too easy for them yet I can dominate them at home. The cavern between home and away is immense. I did one game pull back my AM to DM and went 41311 and walloped contain on and beat Man City away 1-0 and they hardly had a shot but against Spurs three weeks later was trounced 3-0. So frustrating and as I say inconsistent.

I have been pondering using this to try and get more of a defensive screen :

-------------------DLF S---------CF A--------------------

-------------------------AM A/S--------------------------

----------------DLP D---BWM S---DLP D---------------

WB A/S------CD D---------------CD D--------WB A/S

---------------------------SK S-----------------------------

Idea being you then have two DLP D as a screen rather than just one. You have an aggressive BWM charging about in the centre. Tried this out one game and did ok defensively and noticed the DLP's covered the flanks quite well. The only annoyance was that it struggled up top. Not sure if the BWM, AM and DLF all occupy the same space? Would appreciate your thoughts on positions and fluidity with this?

[Sussex Hammer]

[video=youtube;brC52i9Rjes]

Then this with the last kick of the game after I have battered Newcastle all second half. Scorer of the fabulous volley, Jamnat,. First touch 14, Long shots 11, Technique 12, Finishing 6. Only the second goal he has ever scored in FM. Nothing at all suggests he can do that. As I say rabbit out of the hat!!

[themightyyak]

Used this system to great effect in FM15.

This time around I'm stinking the place out with the same set up.

[herne79]

Yeh consistency can be a pain, but then so is real life - West Ham beat Liverpool, Man City, Arsenal and Chelsea, then lose to Watford, Bournemouth and Leicester. Go figure .

Still semi-away at the mo, but I'll have a think and post some more later.

In terms of your latest idea (2 x DLP defend) I guess could work, so long as you can get the defence to attack via the midfield working. I'd probably be more inclined to use a CM(s) rather than the BWM to provide better link up play. I'd also favour an AF rather than the CF(a) up top combined with either your DLF(s) or perhaps a CF(s) instead of the DLF. AM(s) behind to again provide some support, creativity and late runs. Attacking wingbacks to provide decent threat down the flanks could be nice, especially with the 2 defending midfielders to cover. That's all off the top of my head though, could be barking up the wrong tree of course.

Flexible team shape is probably all you need - the DLP, AM, DLF and CF (if you use one) should all be creative enough.

Anyway, I'll have a think.

[lennon67]

I'm still on FM14 but I use the 4-3-1-2 all the time, still not mastered it though. I try and keep things simple as I'm not great tactically, but I usually start on Fluid-Standard with a few TIs to play short passing. I seem to struggle to decide if I should be using the TIs Push Higher up or Hassle Opponents, or both even with this formation, maybe that's why I struggle lol.

[Sussex Hammer]

I'm still on FM14 but I use the 4-3-1-2 all the time, still not mastered it though. I try and keep things simple as I'm not great tactically, but I usually start on Fluid-Standard with a few TIs to play short passing. I seem to struggle to decide if I should be using the TIs Push Higher up or Hassle Opponents, or both even with this formation, maybe that's why I struggle lol.

I'm still struggling 12 months in so don't worry about it!! My "big" problem is away games with this formation, or any formation TBH, and I suspect it's the same in FM16. The gulf especially with the bigger teams is far too big. For instance last night I beat Man City at home 4-0. Great result, great performance and the football was a joy. I am amongst the top passers in the League and everything is great! Next game away at Liverpool I get done 4-0, my players couldn't pass for toffee. At 2-0 down I went a bit more cautious and conceded another two. I am baffled!!!