Choosing a tactic for my Liverpool side - Tactical masters welcome

[steveshaw1983]

Every year when FM is released I have some difficulty getting my tactics right and having a good balance between attack and defence. This year is no different, although I do accept that this is my issue and not the game itself. I don't like to have multiple tactics, I prefer just to have 1 or 2 variations of the same tactic.

The difficulty this year is that I have multiple striking options therefore I naturally want to play 2 up top. I also have young Jordon Ibe who I don't want to neglect by not playing wide players. There is also the issue of having 3 top drawer number 10's.

Any help with ideas of tactics would be appreciated.

My thoughts are to play a possession based game and creating a few very good chances rather having 30 long range shots. The possession stat gives me the feeling of dominating games but obviously needs to be good possession. I know that style of play generally comes with a lower tempo and shorter passing game but I don't want it to be dull and boring.

One of my past problems and I suppose current problems is the use of too many TI's without really thinking about what impact they have and whether they are necessary.

I suppose I just need to start with the shape which is balanced and won't leave me exposed, then add additional TI's as I go on.

A couple of thoughts I have had are below. Please give me your feedback (constructive) and any tips from this forums tactical genius's.

4231

5212

Upto now I think my favourite is the 5212 as it allows me to have 2 strikers, I can mould Jordon Ibe into a wingback and the players I have at Liverpool do seem to fit with this shape. The 4231 is a personal nightmare for me as I have never been able to create this tactic without shipping goals like Chelsea (this season).

As stated above, feedback and general discussion are welcome.

Thanks

[Blinklys]

The 4231 is a decent option for Liverpool. In your situation I would use Coutinho as an inside forward (S) on the left. Lallana can be tricky, and I often find Ibe as a winger (S) to be a better option. In my opinion Firmino doesn't perform well as a ap (A). Considering the weakness in midfield and Coutinho cutting in, I would probably use Firmino as a support player. Maybe am (s). It's not easy to get right, though. You need to experiment a bit.

Also, the 2 midfielders need to be holding players. A bwm might be too aggressive. And a bbm has roam as a PI, which is less than ideal in this formation.

I'm currently trying out a 4321 with Firmino (AM - A) and Coutinho (T) playing off Benteke at the front. Lucas, Allen and Can as midfielders (Milner is ok, but can't get him to perform).

Mentality is standard and shape is balanced. This might get tweaked during matches though. Point is I find those middle settings give me better options for slight adjustments. As much as we want LFC to attack and dominate, we need to accept that we are not title contenders yet.

[steveshaw1983]

Thanks for the reply mate.

I was hoping you'd prefer the 5212 haha.

The thing with your suggestion above is that it would leave me with 3 attacking midfielders on support which would cause I lack of movement and creativity wouldn't it? I was always led to believe it is best to have at least one attack minded player in each line i.e. defence midfield and attack.

With the centre mids, I have one on cm defend and the other b2b as I don't want both to sit all the time and not contribute to the play. However, I do want them to defend so maybe a CM defend and DLP support could work? The defensive minded player on the side of the attacking fullback.

Personally I think we have a very strong squad on this years game and with the right setup and a couple of players in we could easily be up there. Optimistic as ever

[Blinklys]

Cheers.

Hah your 5212 is an old favorite of mine, way back before CM became FM. I believe it was called 532 "attack" or something, cant remember. I always used this formation while my friend straight up 442 direct with Everton and won everything (the Duncan Ferguson era). Frustrating!

I haven't tried it with FM 2011 - 16 though. If so I would probably go all out and use complete wingbacks. Clyne and Moreno should do well in that setup. Allen and Lucas should sit in position to cover the defenders. This would give the wingbacks and attackers license to bomb forward. Problem is where do you put Coutinho/Fermino/Lallana in this formation?

If you are concerned about having all three AM's on support, ask your striker to run the channels and your AMC to attack. It's a risk reward thing though. Or you can ask your AMC to be a trequartista which in theory should make him drop deeper when not in possesion and thereby support the midfield.

[macca72]

5212 I like a lot and it has the huge added bonus that the Liberio role is working this year, so you could find someone and turn them into Franco Baresi.

[steveshaw1983]

5212 I like a lot and it has the huge added bonus that the Liberio role is working this year, so you could find someone and turn them into Franco Baresi.

What do you think to the setup I have done i.e. roles and instructions?

[steveshaw1983]

Cheers.

Hah your 5212 is an old favorite of mine, way back before CM became FM. I believe it was called 532 "attack" or something, cant remember. I always used this formation while my friend straight up 442 direct with Everton and won everything (the Duncan Ferguson era). Frustrating!

I haven't tried it with FM 2011 - 16 though. If so I would probably go all out and use complete wingbacks. Clyne and Moreno should do well in that setup. Allen and Lucas should sit in position to cover the defenders. This would give the wingbacks and attackers license to bomb forward. Problem is where do you put Coutinho/Fermino/Lallana in this formation?

If you are concerned about having all three AM's on support, ask your striker to run the channels and your AMC to attack. It's a risk reward thing though. Or you can ask your AMC to be a trequartista which in theory should make him drop deeper when not in possesion and thereby support the midfield.

I opted against the complete so backs as I heard they abandon defensive duties. Do you think the formation is suited to the style I want or perhaps a more direct high tempo game?

[steveshaw1983]

Ok..... So after failing miserably with the above tactics I have decided to go for a good old fashioned 4-4-2. Now, the tactic below seems to be getting me results and I plan on using this in games where I am the strongest team. The problem I am having is I never seem to have more than 50% possession and I am also struggling to stop the opposition having a decent number of shots at goal. I would like to improve and build on the below tactic with a bit of guidance from you guys.

The tactic and TI's are below. I have selected some PI's - GK to quickly rollout to full backs.

All players except defender to close down much more often.

The reason for those PI's was to win the ball back quickly and the goalkeeper not to give up possession easily with long kicks etc.

I have opted for balanced width as I only have 2 centre mids and don't want large gaps between them.

I am playing a higher line, again to try and close any gaps and help press the opposition and win the ball back quicker.

I have gone for play out of defence to try and avoid long balls upto Benteke. Whilst I want the ball to be played to him I would rather a less direct and patient approach.

Let me know if you would like anymore information. I would also like to create a variation of this tactic for difficult away matches and against stronger teams.

[steveshaw1983]

I did consider the DLF(s) role as I played one on FM15. I went with TM(s) as it suits Benteke more, maybe not the team though.

Would it not be too negative playing 2x CM(d)?

[steveshaw1983]

Nope, look at everything else you're doing - pretty attacking. I've used two CM(D) many times when playing with attacking wingers. You'll keep possession easier for one thing.

Keep in mind also that by using a TM he is going to be a constant magnet for long balls, because that's how the role works in FM. DLF(S) or F9 would see you playing more like 4-2-3-1 when attacking. DLF(S) can operate like a TM but without the magnet effect.

Makes sense when you put it like that. I presume the DLF(s) will drop in front of the CM(d) to give them forward passing options?

What about the fullbacks? Would you leave as wingbacks or do you think fullbacks would be better? I know the wingback role is quite attacking but i wanted the LWB to provide plenty of width when the wide playmaker cuts inside

[steveshaw1983]

Yep, the DLF will drop deep as a passing option, but also get forward once play has developed (particularly when wing play gets toward the byline). If I play an attacking winger I like to use FB(S) behind them. They both offer defensive cover and a passing option if the wide play breaks down.

Your WM(A) will sit narrower by default, and cut inside to the corner of the area, you might use FB(S) on that side - or you can try FB(A) on that side to get the overlap and overload, but then maybe go with FB(D) on the other side if the opposition has numbers against your CB's. Still might be risky if they attack down that flank though with aggressive wing play, so you'd need to keep an eye on it.

But, you already have AF(A) on that side, so you might consider using either FB(A)/WB(A) on the left side, with WM(S), and then using W(A) on the right side with FB(S) behind him. I think the AF(A) and WM(A) will be getting into each other's way.

Really appreciate the advice Analog. It all makes sense when you lay it out as you have but I never seem to be able to see it. I've had problems with tactics since FM14 haha.

Would you say this looks a bit more balanced then?

I'd be comfortable playing this against weaker opposition but when it comes to the likes of Arsenal and Man City away it will be different. Not really sure what changes would suit those matches. Perhaps I could play slighter deeper, more direct and close down less?

[steveshaw1983]

Perfect, cheers mate. I will update on here how I get on. Will start my game tomorrow night :-)

[Blinklys]

Thats really bad.

[baddragon62]

Been seeing some weird things in my own save so I decided to look into your tactic to poke around. Loaded up your formation from above, standard mentality, no PI/TI's. Been finding the off the ball movement to be wonky around the area in the beta, and have also seen some real issues with defensive positioning. Best to wait until full release to really dig into this, imo.

Been noticing the same thing - not sure how to report this to si though.

[Gishi]

If you want A) two strikers, B) to use your good nr 10s (guessing you refer to AMs) and to C) have a spot for Ibe, then none of the afformentioned tactics fullfills what you want.

A 3-4-1-2 might though, although that means you can't play Moreno or Clyne.

How about an assymetric 4-4-2 diamond, lined up like this:

Gk: whatever - Mignolet

RB: full back support - Clyne

CD: 2x cd def - Skrtel + Sakho

LB: wing back support - Moreno

DMCr: Defensive midfielder support - Lucas

MCl: Central midfielder support - Henderson

MR: Winger support - Ibe

AMC: advanced playmaker - Coutinho

SCr: Target man support - Benteke

SCl: Advanced forward attack - Sturridge

[jakem016]

Or you could retrain Ibe to play cm and play him as a cm-a. His best position would obviously be out wide, but he could make an excellent cm-a. He could also be a good striker if you train him to improve his finishing.

[ajsr1982]

4-2-3-1 is absolutely fine as a formation. But you have to perhaps accept that it's more aimed at outscoring the opposition, rather than keeping things tight at the back - I'm sure some of the tactical wizards have figured it out.

I play the system on FM15 as Liverpool and it works pretty well for me. I have it set up as follows:

GK

Moreno as WB-S

Sakho - BPD- C

Skrtel - CD - D

RB - FB - A

Henderson - CM - D

Other CM - CM - D

Origi - IF - A (on the left)

Coutinho - AP - A

Sterling - W - S

Balotelli - CF - A

I'm not exactly tearing it up, but I'm consistently in the top two/three in the league. Important stuff here is that if you're using 4-2-3-1, the '2' in the midfield should be defensive. Especially as I'm using 'Control'. You're already attacking with four, with support from full backs in wide areas. You don't really need your CMs to get beyond the ball. They'll still contribute to the play, just from a deeper position.

The biggest problem I have is that this is very shaky against good teams. You can create a good 4-2-3-1 shape using player roles in a 4-5-1, however, that will give you more defensive solidity. There's a thread knocking about that details how to do this. '4-5-1 swiss army knife of formations', or something like that.

[steveshaw1983]

Been seeing some weird things in my own save so I decided to look into your tactic to poke around. Loaded up your formation from above, standard mentality, no PI/TI's. Been finding the off the ball movement to be wonky around the area in the beta, and have also seen some real issues with defensive positioning. Best to wait until full release to really dig into this, imo.

That's really weird. Worth reporting as a bug?

[steveshaw1983]

If you want A) two strikers, B) to use your good nr 10s (guessing you refer to AMs) and to C) have a spot for Ibe, then none of the afformentioned tactics fullfills what you want.

A 3-4-1-2 might though, although that means you can't play Moreno or Clyne.

How about an assymetric 4-4-2 diamond, lined up like this:

Gk: whatever - Mignolet

RB: full back support - Clyne

CD: 2x cd def - Skrtel + Sakho

LB: wing back support - Moreno

DMCr: Defensive midfielder support - Lucas

MCl: Central midfielder support - Henderson

MR: Winger support - Ibe

AMC: advanced playmaker - Coutinho

SCr: Target man support - Benteke

SCl: Advanced forward attack - Sturridge

I did consider the 3-4-1-2 but having failed miserably with another tactic (5-2-1-2) using wingbacks I decided to give up on it.

I'm quite enjoying using the 4-4-2 I was discussing earlier in the thread and am going to start a save with that. I also want to try a 4-2-3-1 so that may come if my 4-4-2 doesn't go to plan.

[steveshaw1983]

Or you could retrain Ibe to play cm and play him as a cm-a. His best position would obviously be out wide, but he could make an excellent cm-a. He could also be a good striker if you train him to improve his finishing.

I did something similar with Sterling on FM15 and trained his a a striker. He was very good at it. Not sure about Ibe as a CM though, for me he is too slight.

[steveshaw1983]

4-2-3-1 is absolutely fine as a formation. But you have to perhaps accept that it's more aimed at outscoring the opposition, rather than keeping things tight at the back - I'm sure some of the tactical wizards have figured it out.

I play the system on FM15 as Liverpool and it works pretty well for me. I have it set up as follows:

GK

Moreno as WB-S

Sakho - BPD- C

Skrtel - CD - D

RB - FB - A

Henderson - CM - D

Other CM - CM - D

Origi - IF - A (on the left)

Coutinho - AP - A

Sterling - W - S

Balotelli - CF - A

I'm not exactly tearing it up, but I'm consistently in the top two/three in the league. Important stuff here is that if you're using 4-2-3-1, the '2' in the midfield should be defensive. Especially as I'm using 'Control'. You're already attacking with four, with support from full backs in wide areas. You don't really need your CMs to get beyond the ball. They'll still contribute to the play, just from a deeper position.

The biggest problem I have is that this is very shaky against good teams. You can create a good 4-2-3-1 shape using player roles in a 4-5-1, however, that will give you more defensive solidity. There's a thread knocking about that details how to do this. '4-5-1 swiss army knife of formations', or something like that.

Thanks for this, I am considering trying again with a 4-2-3-1 and would definitely agree with the 2 CM's in a defensive role as I was leaking goals before. The annoying thing for me is that other teams seem to be able to use this far more successfully against me than I can against them haha.

[anorthernboy]

I'm still playing FM15 but its all relevant.

I'm having some reasonable success with a 4231wide and a 4312narrow combination.

4231 goes a little something like,

GK/d

FB/s CB/c CB/d WB/a

CM/d DLP/d

W/a TQ/a IF/s

CF/s

Fluid/Attacking

Shorter passing

Work ball into box

Play out of defence

Push higher up

Close down more

For me your better having you double pivot on defensive mentalities for two reasons. The first is to offer stability and the second is so they don't clog up the final third. With a fluid mentality they will still be there as recycling options and not sit too deep. I switch my LWB to support if I get a good lead or face tricky wingers.

The 4312 goes,

GK/d

WB/s CD/d CD/d WB/a

CM/a CM/d AP/s

AM/a

AF/a DLF/s

Same settings as the other tactic although I ask the CM/a to become a central winger with "dribble more, run wide with ball, move into channels"

I fell out of love with the game but recently started a save to try to motivate me to buy FM16 and it worked.

I would try the 4312 with

GK/d

Mignolet

WB/s CB/c CB/d WB/a

Clyne Skrtel Sakho Moreno

CM/a Cm/d AP/s

Hendo Lucas Coutinho

AM/a

Firmino

CF/a CF/s

Benteke Sturridge

I'm eager to see how it works on the new game.

All competitions,

Balotelli 18 games 16 goals 16 assists

Sturridge 16 games 14 goals 5 assists

Coutinho 21 games 10 goals 11 assists

Sterling 22 games 12 goals 12 assists

League so far,

21 games 18 won 2 drawn 1 lost 60 goals scored 18 conceded

[Font Tomasso]

Alright mate, this is what I played with great success as Liverpool in FM '15.

GK

D

FB CB CB CWB

S D D A

B2B CM

S D

IF TRQ AP

A A S

CF

S

* I played flexible, with:- short passing (weather dependent) , work ball into box, play out of defence, pass into space, run at defence, be more expressive, close down opposition gk)

For FM'16 I thought you could use Benteke as your CFs and possibly re-train Sturridge as your IFa on the right, with Ibe as his understudy. Firmino-TRQ, Coutinho-APs.

I must add that this 4-2-3-1 is an attacking formation as has been pointed out. I used it only for certain matches and match situations based on odds and scorelines within the match, and only in conjunction with Attacking, Control & occasionally Overload mentalities. Over time as the team started to dominate then I'd use it the vast majority of the time as I'd often be favourites to win.

I had 2 more defensive formations with different TI's which I used less often in conjunction with all the remaining more defensive mentalities, for the odd game where the odds weren't in my favour, or if I was up in a tight game.

I played on Classic Mode which has no tactical familiarity I must add. If you're playing the full game, and plan to use one formation then I wouldn't expect the 4-2-3-1 to be as effective with a mentality of Standard or lower. You may struggle especially away against City, Chelsea, Utd etc if you don't use standard or counter mentality from kick off. In which case it may be wise to learn at least one other formation with an extra player in your defensive third of the pitch to make these mentalities more effective.

P.S.- Back to the original attacking 4-2-3-1, an alternative to this could be a 4-2-4 (4-2-2-2 "wide" to be exact). The roles would be identical to my 4-2-3-1 but with 2 up front and no treq. Possibly Sturridge as an AFa and Benteke DLFs. Firmino then maybe could be your first choice IFa on the right with Ibe again as understudy.