Heavy Metal in a Crystal Palace - Klopp Recreation

[Justified]

Admittingly I've struggled to get into the recent series of FM for a number of reasons and in an attempt to get into FM15 as much as I could, I just failed and could not motivate myself enough to get into it. I've probably not played this game properly since possibly 08/09 season. However there has been a spark. A man from the "Black Forrest" has arrived at my beloved Liverpool and he has turned me from a doubter into a believer. It might be because I have more time on my hands leading up to Xmas so I'd be able to contribute as much as possible. Just look at the man below. Maybe not a Messiah but definitely a man I'd have a nice bevvy with down the pub. I defy anyone who doesn't enjoy a Kloppo press conference, absolute comedy goal and you can really see his passion for the game. If Mourinho is the master of mind games, Klopp is definitely the master of motivation.

Formation

So enough Klopp loving and let's get down to business. So what is his preferred formation? Well if we look historically, let's say 12/13 season was the peak for Klopp in terms of Dortmund, let's forget the 4-2-3-1 typical chat we get when discussing Klopp and focus more on the roles that were given to the player within the system. Undoubtedly without the ball Klopp lines up 4-4-2 or 4-5-1 depending on the opponent to create 3 lines of defence and that will be the base I have in mind first as defensive shape means then you can focus more on what formation to line up in the tactics creator. In terms of offence it's difficult to narrow down exactly what he is thinking because not enough games have gone but you hear people band around 4-4-1-1/4-4-2, 4-2-3-1, 4-3-2-1 etc etc. I'd say it's a hybrid of all that in my opinion. The two behind the one are Coutinho and Lallana with Milner being slightly more fixed on the right and Lucas/Can in the centre. You could easily translate that as Reus and Gotze behind Lewandowski, Kuba more fixed and Gundogan and Bender in the centre of midfield (if we're still talking 12/13 season).

Klopp has tinkered a lot recently, most notably last season due to not really knowing his best side. He thought Immobile was Lewandowski's replacement. Wrong. He tried Ramos and Immobile up front together. Wrong. Players were injured left right and centre. I don't really rate Klopp's last season in Dortmund apart from the fact when he eventually went back to his original tactic but the damage was already done. But going forward I think he'll stick to what he knows best and for now I'm calling it 4-4-1-1 but it's not symmetric and looks kinda like this :

For now ignore the duties and just focus on the roles. For me the key roles needed for a Klopp tactic is a) at least 1 Ball Playing Defender, I think 2 could be completely suicidal and I think it's evident that Hummels/Sakho obviously are the more "attacking" of the two defenders Subotic/Skrtel. That doesn't mean Subotic/Skrtel aren't direct but I thin Hummels/Sakho step more into midfield and takes more risks. b) Deep Lying Playmaker in midfield for the Gundogan/Can role. At the moment Gundogan is better at imposing himself on the game, a role Klopp is hoping Can will grow into. c) 1 widemidfielder playing the Winger role. Now this is open to debate really. A lot of people would say it should be a WM cutting inside or another Inside Forward. Actually I would think that is wrong. I think the right wing is usually the one that is overloaded (that's why Clyne/Piszczek were always more noticeable then Moreno/Schmelzer) but this is a role we can play around with a bit but the characteristics are wingers that play there but they're sort of half wingers half Raumdeuters in a way. d) A Deep Lying Forward, I think this one is self explanitory. e) On the left we see an Inside Forward in a more advanced position and that's where I think most people think we play 4-3-2-1 which means they wouldn't be half wrong as shown by the picture below from the Spurs game :

The shape is slightly different but this was Klopp's first match in charge and I think Lallana was focusing more on staying close to the striker and Coutinho then actual positional sense which did sometimes see Can having to run to close down the Spurs right back. Of course if Lallana backs into midfield there's nothing wrong with that but it's slightly wrong and causes Can to close down the left back way too much. However if you look at the recent Liverpool win away to Chelsea you'll see it gets better and better each match :

The first graph is with Firmino/Milner in and the second is with Benteke/Ibe replacing them. You can see the compactness between DLF, IF and AMC pretty clearly whilst W and RFB overload on the left. Where I said the Kuba/Milner role on the right as a half Raumdeuter is shown in the graph below when Liverpool were building down the left :

Firmino (11) comes deep, Coutinho (10) and runs into space vacated and because Liverpool build on the right Milner can run wide to hold width and overload with Clyne (2) or can run into space beyond Lallana (20).

So at the moment this is at the drawing board stage so I'm going to play some friendlies out and see how it goes. The formation is highly flexible though because if I want to be more defensive I can place the MC's in the DMC spots and if I want to be more attacking I just bump up the MR up to AMR instead of changing instructions too much. As for team instructions initially I'm going for this :

I'm keeping it nice and simple for now, the only three being ticked are fairly narrow, close down more and drop slightly deeper with an attacking mentality and fluid shape. On width I think it's well documented that the width of the team comes form the fullbacks (hence why they are attacking) so the team as a whole have to be compact but I think Narrow is too much whilst balanced is just too wide with an attacking mentality. Why I chose attacking is because I think it's evident that Klopp is a risk taker and talks a lot about this. Hence why Gegenpressing/Counter-Pressing is so important to him but the narrow shape also goes a long way to help with this as well because if you win the ball your central players are already stationed close together and quickly go up the pitch with one touch football to score a goal. The reason I selected slightly deeper is because I feel looking at the normal D-line, it looked to high and although high pressing needs a high line I don't think, theoretically, it needs to be that high that high balls get played over your defenders seeing as we're playing with a bog standard keeper. The press more became a factor after selecting a deeper d-line because otherwise we'd sink into our half too early and not press high up the field initially. Prevent GK distribution will probably come into play during pre-season no doubt but leaving it for now. Tackling I haven't decided yet and might do case by case with the players instead. Build up and attack left default but possibly more direct will be an option however it depends how risky we play with the attacking mentality as is.

Any thoughts are welcome of course

[Justified]

Tactical Theorem of a Klopp Defence

Firstly we'll got through some key notes of what, based on his success at Dortmund, some of traits were in defence.

• Both Fullbacks are foremost defenders when set up in the system. What I mean by that is they'll only attack space and overlap play at pace. Neither Fullback starts with a high position though. Some would point to Moreno, I get that, however that's because Moreno naturally is a wing back and will position himself high the field. I expect to see more disciplined positioning of Moreno in future. But if you think of Schmelzer at Dortmund, he never started high, but he and Piszczek attacked space at pace.
  
• The team can play out of defence, but it has to be direct. This is probably the exact opposite of Rodgers did because he wanted to play out with short passing but this is no longer a must have for Liverpool defenders. Klopp has been shouting and criticizing Clyne recently for playing too many short passes at the back.
  
• The is no constant "midfield drop into defence" play with the defenders splitting. It could occur but not as constant as we did under Rodgers.
  
• The usual back four for Dortmund, when all were fit, were obviously Piszczek, Subotic, Hummels and Schmelzer. Weidenfeller was the first choice goalkeeper and will probably intentionally not talk to much about his role in the team as for me he was just a bog standard GK role.
  

Centre-backs

So if we talk about passing first. In possession Hummels and Subotic would either play to the fullbacks, who were stationed somewhere between 10-20 yards higher upfield, or if those passing lanes were cut off by the opposition they'd go direct. This is either to the striker dropping deep or to the wider midfielders. But they will be looking to get the ball rolling on and forward. Obviously shorter passing will be made when defending a lead later in games but initially it's all direct. Central midfielders will give as much time and space the CB's need to pick a pass by positioning themselves further upfield but this also helps win the ball higher up the field when the direct pass is made. Hence why Klopp has been talking a lot about winning 2nd balls higher up the field and how it's vitally important to his style of play.

Hummels was most definitely a Ball Playing Defender in his style of play. Enjoyed stepping up with the ball into midfield to open up a new passing lane and also comfortable picking out a long range pass into midfield. He liked pushing up and making a tackle, much like Sakho does and has shown evidently recently under Klopp. Obviously both those players have errors in their game by mistiming their step up to press to be exposed in behind but both had the acceleration to get back into line. Alongside Hummels was Subotic who wasn't to dissimilar to Hummels with his main differences being dropping a little deeper and be less likely to go into midfield with the ball. Subotic is a direct, aggressive and quick to go to ground with his tackles which makes me think he might be somewhat of a Limited Defender. Will need experimenting that one.

Full-backs

As mentioned before both full-backs will start deep. Maintaining shape is absolutely first priority, being able to drop and push up when needing to press the flanks to stop crosses and overlapping players, all this by keeping shape and the line of defence. They have to aid in quick press and overload after transitions. Dortmunds full-backs readily waited for the attack to be underway before exploiting gaps and driving forward powerfully. A common misconception was that Piszczek was more attacking then Schmelzer however they were both equally as attacking however it usually works in tandem where if one attacks the other maintains width without powering forward.

The fullbacks in defence will hold the line and remain compact, as I mentioned, and will join in 2-1 or 3-2 overload press on the flanks if an opposition attack progresses. This automatically means you have an extra out immediately if the ball is won back and can then transition into attack.

In FM this'll need some experimenting where some balance will be needed in attack and defence but initially the two roles I want to try is Fullback Attack and Wingback Support. Both roles play similar but the Wingback Support role might see tandem forward runs better and will balance defensive duties and attacking duties. Seeing as width will be an issue due to the narrowness of play in the middle, wingback might be the better of the two.

[Justified]

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[..Valhalla..]

Nice OP.

This is the first tactical thread I'll have followed (because I'm here from the beginning of it). I'm gonna follow with interest too; I like a bit of Gegenpressing

[jimmeth1985]

Looking forward to seeing how this turns out.

[Jean0987654321]

Flip the roles in center mid and it becomes closer to the real life tactic

Not too bad so far, OP

[diddydaddydoddy]

I started a thread a few days ago for peoples advice/opinions on setting up Klopp-wise for LFC and you have kinda 'gone for it' - so I'm looking forward to seeing how this works

[Blinklys]

Now this should be interesting!

[alinp]

For now ignore the duties and just focus on the roles. For me the key roles needed for a Klopp tactic is a) at least 1 Ball Playing Defender, I think 2 could be completely suicidal and I think it's evident that Hummels/Sakho obviously are the more "attacking" of the two defenders Subotic/Skrtel. That doesn't mean Subotic/Skrtel aren't direct but I thin Hummels/Sakho step more into midfield and takes more risks. b) Deep Lying Playmaker in midfield for the Gundogan/Can role. At the moment Gundogan is better at imposing himself on the game, a role Klopp is hoping Can will grow into. c) 1 widemidfielder playing the Winger role. Now this is open to debate really. A lot of people would say it should be a WM cutting inside or another Inside Forward. Actually I would think that is wrong. I think the right wing is usually the one that is overloaded (that's why Clyne/Piszczek were always more noticeable then Moreno/Schmelzer) but this is a role we can play around with a bit but the characteristics are wingers that play there but they're sort of half wingers half Raumdeuters in a way. d) A Deep Lying Forward, I think this one is self explanitory. e) On the left we see an Inside Forward in a more advanced position and that's where I think most people think we play 4-3-2-1 which means they wouldn't be half wrong as shown by the picture below from the Spurs game :

a) totally agree and it's becoming clearer the more LFC play under Klopp that Sakho has this role

b) in theory, yes Can is arguably in this role at the moment, but his discipline is a little wanting currently (although better against Chelski)

c) an interesting one - I tend to go with the role generally being a WM or IF, and only really acts as a winger when Ibe comes on. For now I'd go WM(A) sitting narrower, but I think this one will develop as players come back to full fitness

d) could be a CF I think (although he started Firmino there v Chelski, I'd suggest as more of an F9)

e) possibly an AP in the AML slot (but again sitting narrower)

I agree the width is coming from the full backs, however I'd argue that Moreno is more of a WB(A) whilst Clyne an FB(A) generally on the fact that Moreno gets less support on his side due to a) Coutinho's central play and b) Can's lack of discipline. On the right, Clyne has clearly had a flank partner in Milner (mostly).

Mentality & TI's wise, I think the main issue is how that achieves the correct shape. LFC are certainly more compact now and as your pictures show, there really isn't a lot of space between the d-line and the CM line - certainly not enough room to fit a DM (or opposition AM) into. For that reason, I'd suspect drop deeper is probably incorrect but agree Attacking (or Control if not wanting to be too extreme) would be the correct Mentality using their Normal d-line. In FM15, Play Narrower didn't necessary have the team defend narrower, so whether this is the way to go to achieve the compactness required is debateable. Under normal circumstances, lower the mentality would make the tem more compact, but "The Normal One" isn't that normal hence the challenge is maintaining compactness higher up the pitch. Some options to consider... a) Have the Full Backs Sit Narrower (but Run Wide with Ball to maintain the team's width in attack) b) play your AM's in the AMC slots or have them Sit Narrower in the AML/R slots.

The Pressing - for me, I don't think this is a TI (other than using Prevent GK distribution as you've suggested) . We can restrict space this way, but to get the individuals pressing like they need to I'd be inclined to give Close Down More (or Much More up top) PI's to all of the front 6 & the FB's + have the front 4 (which would include the MR in your set up) Roam whilst the 2 CM's Hold Position. To accentuate this, I'd be looking to add Closing Down OI's to at least the opposition's defenders and DM's (and possibly Wingers & CM's too).

The final bit is the Fluidity... You've gone for Fluid and I'd tend to agree. For me any high pressing tactic that requires a whole team buy in has to be Fluid (if not even Very Fluid). I'm sure some will argue Klopp's teams are structures, but I personally don't see how they can be and press the way the do.

Good opening by the way, and I'll be interested to see where you (and Herr Klopp) get to.

[Blinklys]

I just had to give this a whirl in my classic "testing" save.

Interestingly, Milner was more solid as WM with Sit Narrower (like alinp also suggests). For fun I changed him to W (S) midway through first half and suddenly we were down 0-2 vs Rapid Wien after a mistake by Lovren (duh!). After some tweaking at half time we came back and won 3-2 with Ings grabbing the winner very late in the game. Apart from some sloppy defending we looked solid and aggressive, getting 28 shots and 17 on target. Promising start!

[Justified]

Defence part updated. Experimentation in pre-season will be LD (Cover) vs CD (Cover) and FB's (Attack) vs WB's (Support).

[Blinklys]

Interesting. Whats the thinking behind having to central defenders on cover duty? Won't that leave them too passive?

[dustygator]

A few comments on specific players

- Can: I would move him to the left side of midfield and change his role from deep-lying player to box-to-box. Can is very industrious and energetic but undisciplined and tactically-naive. A DLP-S just isn't going to provide the surging forward runs (on and off the ball) that Can does in real life as well borderline suicidal closing down. I could also see using a BWM-S instead.

- Lucas: CM-D is perfect but again, swap his position with Can. As situations dictate, moving him back to anchor-man position makes sense as well.

- Milner: Definitely not a winger. He never takes on defenders off the dribble and plays a much bigger part in build-up play. I would lean toward WM-S rather than attack so as to have him cross from deeper positions like the assist in the Southhampton game.

- Coutinho: IF-S is fine, could also make an argument for AP-A. Coutinho loves to dribble, take audacious long shots (wasteful/brilliant depending on whether they go in) and play through balls into space (but really only when Sturridge is in the team as no one else in the squad know how to reliably get in behind the defense). He almost never makes penetrating runs.

- Lallana: I think AP-A fits Lallana better than AM-S. He loves to dribble and dawdle on the ball but doesn't really provide the cutting passes/runs from deep/or long shots that an AM-S does. I think once Firmino gets fit and integrated into the team, he will start over Lallana in more of a AM-A or even shadow striker type role. From limited time in the team here (and some youtube vids of Hoffenheim), his workrate and runs should fit that second role perfectly.

-Benteke: I think CF-A fits him better than DLF-A. If Sturridge is ever healthy, I can see him playing on the right as an inside forward or as an advanced forward up top.

[fusershift]

I would probably make one of the fullbacks more attacking to get the overlap working more? Not sure if the thread is being continued though.

[Jonny2J]

How did this go? Looks really interesting based on the OP.