Fond Foat Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 I can't get my strikers to get even close to be useful defensively. I want to make a low block 4-4-2 as used by Atletico, but it is impossible. Anyone give me some suggestions on how to get defenders right back to your box and then push upfield as sonn as we gain possesion? The only way I can get them into my half is to make them man mark. I have tried man-marking midfielders but that is not what I want really. I want a low block. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HUNT3R Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 Since the formation you set in FM is the defensive shape, that's the key area to look at. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fond Foat Posted November 7, 2015 Author Share Posted November 7, 2015 Yes, I know thats the theory, but what does that really mean. 4 Defenders, 4 Defensive Midfielders, and 2 central midfielders may set a low block but obviously the formation does need an attacking shape as well. I could set up with 2 AMs and play strikerless, but then I lose out on using my best attacking players as my strikers are not able to play as attacking midfiielders. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HUNT3R Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 Yes, I know thats what we are told, but what does that really mean. Sure 4 Defender, 4 Defensive Midfielders, and 2 central midfielders may set a low block but obviously the formation does need an attacking shape as well.I could set up with 2 AMs and play strikerless, but then I lose out on using my best attacking players as my strikers are not able to play as attacking midfiielders. If a player has the attributes, they can play there. Your attacking shape is defined by the roles, duties, PPMs and some TIs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fond Foat Posted November 7, 2015 Author Share Posted November 7, 2015 Okay. So you think 4 Defenders, 4 Defensive Midfielders, and 2 Central Midfielders can be a credible formation? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HUNT3R Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 Probably not, but try and see if it's what you want. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fond Foat Posted November 7, 2015 Author Share Posted November 7, 2015 Yes, I understand that, but I also what to understand how the game deals with formations. I mean if I want to play a basic low block, which many teams do, it means I have to set up a formation that forces players to be considered unnatural, but if they have the attributes they will be fine anyway. It gets rather confusing. Now, if we say the tactic I am going to try doesn't work because the strikers can't get forward enough from the central midfielder positions, then that means I have to accept that the strikers will not drop into the position I want them too. A tactical position that has been used in La Liga. Anyway, I will design something and post it here. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HUNT3R Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 What you posted isn't a basic low block though. It's an extreme, rare case. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fond Foat Posted November 7, 2015 Author Share Posted November 7, 2015 Okay, I just got this from a analysis of how Atletico and Man City use a 4-4-2 in very different ways. It was suggested that the Atletico low block is used whenever they come against a team that has numerous playmakers and is a common tactic for them that other managers in La Liga are looking to copy. Screenshots of the City formation showed the strikers sitting higher but still in theri own half. The core principles behind Atletico Madrid’s tactics are familiar: The default posture of the team is to sit deep in a narrow, compact shape in order to prevent the opponent from creating scoring chances. The team only breaks the shape to press the ball when the odds of success are high and the cost of failure is minimal. (And even here it might be better to say that the whole team moves together, causing the shape to temporarily change, rather than saying that the shape “breaks.”) When the ball is won, it is played forward quickly because fast attacks can catch opponents off balance and turning the ball over in the attacking third is less costly than turning it over in your own defensive third or in midfield. Every player in the team has to assist defensively and sacrifice individual expression for the sake of the system. At the moment, I can only get strikers to cross the half way line if I ask them to man mark or play strikerless. I feel getting these instructions across should be easier to achieve. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
upsettingshorts Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 Have you tried Very Fluid/Defensive? Then maybe set the forwards to DFA(S? A?) and Defensive Forward (D) ? Very Fluid for sure, though. Maybe something like this. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
roggiotis Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 Very Fluid for sure, though. Maybe something like this. Very fluid with be more disciplined and stick to positions ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean0987654321 Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 I use a SS and a DLF and they can get deep but not as that. I think you can get somewhere with those roles. So, couple that with Counter/Very Fluid and Be More Disiplined TI, and you should be fine Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
upsettingshorts Posted November 8, 2015 Share Posted November 8, 2015 Very fluid with be more disciplined and stick to positions ? Yeah, thinking that it will give the entire team the same Mentality, but reduce the individualism that VF encourages, in order for the players to work more as a team and keep their shape as they move forward. I haven't tried it out or anything, but it makes sense. I think. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fond Foat Posted November 8, 2015 Author Share Posted November 8, 2015 I am using Very Fluid and also a DF and a DLF. I use attacking mentality with defensive TIs right now. Still playing around with it. I am playing around with the idea of setting the formation as I want them to look defensively, though I honestly don't think that is how it really works. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HUNT3R Posted November 8, 2015 Share Posted November 8, 2015 It is how it works though. Start with pulling the strikers back one strata and see if it's having the desired effect. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fond Foat Posted November 8, 2015 Author Share Posted November 8, 2015 No it doesn't work. I know what you mean, I get it. When I create a 4 man Defense, a 4 man Defensive Midfield, and a 2 man Central Midfield I get a nice defensive box. Not as low as I would like (even with Deep defesnive line) but close to the kind of defensive setup I am looking for. But then I have zero attacking options. The picture is the DM and CM option. I think it makes the 4-4-2 less effective than it can be in real life as the image is how a normal 4-4-2 should be without having to make such a change to pitch positions. If I make the two CMs into AMs they do not form the low block. I can't give the CMs or AMs any instructions to make them into anything other than what they are. Even if I make a 4-4-2 with a DF and a DLF, I can't give them instruction that gets them as far back as my CMs do. This is a problem with having preset roles and pre determined instructions for roles. Thsi is not meant as a criticism of the game. I really enjoy it. But this kind of tatical expression should be easy to employ. Team - set a deeper lower block. Individuals - behave like this when we don't have the ball, and behave like this when we do have the ball. The system would fail if the players don't have the attributes to do what is asked, and succeed when they do have those attributes. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HUNT3R Posted November 8, 2015 Share Posted November 8, 2015 No it doesn't work. I know what you mean, I get it. When I create a 4 man Defense, a 4 man Defensive Midfield, and a 2 man Central Midfield I get a nice defensive box. Not as low as I would like (even with Deep defesnive line) but close to the kind of defensive setup I am looking for. But then I have zero attacking options. The picture is the DM and CM option. No you don't? With almost the same formation you're suggesting (only using D, DM and M strata players) I can achieve overlaps, if I want, and consistently get 2 men in the box. If it's an actual counter attack, even better. Look at this, against a team with no intention of attacking much: Here's the defensive phase: When the ball is in a similar position to the photo, they're here: Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Der General Posted November 8, 2015 Share Posted November 8, 2015 Could you post Match stats, formation and TI? Just curious about your setup. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HUNT3R Posted November 8, 2015 Share Posted November 8, 2015 Could you post Match stats, formation and TI? Just curious about your setup. I didn't even finish the match. It took me half a minute to set up and quickly watch through a game. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Der General Posted November 8, 2015 Share Posted November 8, 2015 Then, could you please post roles and TI? I have some ideas, but I would still like to see someone else's perspective. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
s1111 Posted November 8, 2015 Share Posted November 8, 2015 I am using Very Fluid and also a DF and a DLF. I use attacking mentality with defensive TIs right now. Still playing around with it. I am playing around with the idea of setting the formation as I want them to look defensively, though I honestly don't think that is how it really works. Attacking mentality is the problem. The lowest you can drop the defensive line is down to the same as Standard mentality and even then every player is given an attacking mentality and will look to stay as high up the pitch as possible. So strikers are not ever going to drop deep. Drop your mentality to Standard or lower and see what happens. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean0987654321 Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Just to chime in again. I think the overall problem is that you are playing to the game's weakness instead of its strength. The game cannot play the way Atleti plays. You can get somewhere close but that's it. What I recommend is Attacking + Slightly Deeper/Very Fluid and make your strikers man mark the center mids. You want them to do much more than that?? You can use OIs as they typically override any closing down and tight marking instructions and boom, you got your strikers contributing in the defensive end... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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