FM 16 Leaky defence and impossible away games.

[swadeepc]

Hi everyone. I posted this in the discussion forum and i was told i might have more luck if i post here. Anyway i thought i'd post the link here instead of copy and paste. If anyone can offer any insights to it i would greatly appreciate it.

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/440548-FM16-Leaky-Defence-and-Impossible-to-win-away-games

Thanks

Swadeep

[vasilli07]

Your team setup, roles and duties? PIs if any?

[swadeepc]

Your team setup, roles and duties? PIs if any?

The two FBs are on automatic

The two CBs are defend and cover

2 mcs are DLP defend and roaming playmaker support

2 inside forward attack role. Sometimes one will be support

1 attacking midfield attack role

1 advanced forward attack.

Shorter pass

Control

Fluid

Retain posession

Close down more

Stay on feet

Exploit flanks

Look for overlap

Work ball into box

High tempo

Slightly higher line.

Sometimes run at defence also. I did try lower line and close down less also but doesn't really work.

[Menion]

Have you looked at the distance between your 3 AMs and your 2 MCs? It looks like you're trying to create from deep but might actually lack passing options. This probably means you're giving the ball away in situations where the opposition can pick up the ball and run at your team. The AMs are likely too far away to offer any defensive support.

As well as that, you're asking your fullbacks to get forwarded (looks vor overlap and exploit the flanks), leaving the CBs support by two MCs, both on playmaker duties.

Offensively your tactic lacks balance and passing options, which in turn causes defensive issues.

The closing down comes and being out of position from the lack of men behind the wall, meaning the players are constantly trying to recover and react to situations. If your LB runs forward and the roaming MC on that side has roamed. What happens when the ball comes down that flank and you have close down more selected? The LCB has to come across which means the RCB has to also come across. Who covers that space behind him? The RB that has been told to go forward? The DLP on a support instructions? The IF who is on the other side of the pitch?

You have also mentioned about through balls coming through the middle. I can probably guess you are being overrun in midfield and there is always a passing option on for their midfields, leading to uncontested passes through the middle.

How successful is this at home? If it is, awesome, keep it and create a more robust version of it for away games. The fact it’s so shoddy away from home, means it’s a slightly weak tactic. I’m a one tactic fits all type of guy so my away tactic is the same as my home.

To make it more solid I would definitely at a minimum turn one of the MCs into a MC-D. You want this man to be disciplined and not charge around the pitch. He’s protecting the defence, not leaving gaps to be exploited. Lower his closing down and keep an eye on his positioning, tweaking where necessary.

I would change the AMC to a support role or turn down their forward run so they are constantly a passing option. Leave one IF as support and drop the other to an MR or ML and set as a wide midfielder on attack. You can always change the full backs to make one on support and one on attack.

I’ve rambled a bit here and cba going back through to change it. Basically, you’ve hamstrung yourself by telling everyone to bomb forward and then your 2 MCs are holding hands wondering what to do with the ball that they’ve been told to keep hold of. When they ball is finally lost, there aren’t enough players to cover the gaps that have been left.

[ajsr1982]

You're playing an extremely attacking system. Your side is far more likely to win 5-4 than it is 1-0. It's essentially 4-2-4 with attacking full backs.

That said, I used this system to reasonable effect in FM15. A couple of things I'd change.

Your two CMs absolutely need to be holding in this system. Both on Defend duty. I'd suggest only one is a playmaker.

Remove all of your team instructions. The only one that really makes any sense in with Control/Fluid is 'Work Ball Into Box.' You could have shorter passing on, too. At the moment, many of your team instructions cancel each other out, meaning you're almost back at status quo, whilst confusing your players. If you want a high press, use player instructions on your front four. You don't want your entire team chasing the ball, though, as you'll get picked off eventually.

Also, bear in mind that you're playing 'Control.' Your players are already more attack minded. Do you really need so many on an Attack duty? Do you want to exploit the flanks when the only players you have out there are your full backs?

Think of it this way. When your DLP has the ball, your team looks like this:

--------CD----------CD

----------------------DLP

------------RPM

FB---------------------------FB

------IF-------AM--------- IF

----------------AF

See any gaps?

[Blarry]

--------CD----------CD

----------------------DLP

------------RPM

FB---------------------------FB

------IF-------AM--------- IF

----------------AF

Well, the gap should fill up easily with the back line pushing up higher. The thing is, centre backs are notoriously bad at offensive positioning in FM. During long stretches of possession, they should move up as much as 15 yards into enemy territory to keep the field compressed and circulate the ball together with more static midfielders. A controlling mentality should be all about holding the ball in the back of the park, with constant probing passes to the more advanced position and back, until a gap opens.

That said, changing the AM/A to AM/s should be solve a lot of OP's problems. The RPM isn't really neccessary as well, since a DLP/S tends to position himself not too far away from the box as time goes by. Make this guy a CM/S or even a CM/D for more defensive stability.

[ajsr1982]

Well, the gap should fill up easily with the back line pushing up higher. The thing is, centre backs are notoriously bad at offensive positioning in FM. During long stretches of possession, they should move up as much as 15 yards into enemy territory to keep the field compressed and circulate the ball together with more static midfielders. A controlling mentality should be all about holding the ball in the back of the park, with constant probing passes to the more advanced position and back, until a gap opens.

That said, changing the AM/A to AM/s should be solve a lot of OP's problems. The RPM isn't really neccessary as well, since a DLP/S tends to position himself not too far away from the box as time goes by. Make this guy a CM/S or even a CM/D for more defensive stability.

The gap is down the sides of his CBs. A forward with an attack duty, a modicum of pace, and instruction to move into channels will have a field day. That isn't as much of a problem if you have a couple of defensive minded midfielders plugging the gap vacated by the CB that had to track the forward. However, the RPM/DLP axis above won't do the job.

Basically, the OP is really susceptible to counter attacks, and can easily have seven players ahead of the play, if the opposition plays the right pass out of defence.

[Blarry]

Defensive vulnerability on the break? That's not an issue, but a feature of possession football.

Weirdly, this setup gets OP into a lot of trouble because the AI is terrible at utilizing their strikers against possession football, which in turn is a result of the match engine having a terribly wrong idea of how possession football looks like. From my experience, the defending AI usually parks two strikers close to the attacking centre backs to hunt for long balls after winning possession deep in their own half. This leads to those four players basically taken out of the game, since the attacking AI funnels passing play through the midfield players, ignoring their centre backs. Typically, there's about a 2:1 difference in passes played between CMs and DCs in a match of football manager. In real life, the ratio is much closer, with centre backs often reaching the CM numbers and even out-passing their midfield players against particularly well-organized opposition, where they're responsible for a great deal of ball retention.

The proper course of action in turns of attacker positioning, well, there are two ways to deal with it. You can either use mobile strikers to close the passing lanes between the DC and the CM strata (which the AI in FM obviously tries to accomplish, despite the aforementioned lack of build-up play through the centre backs) and close down the defenders - that'll inevitably pressure the DCs to pump the ball long, ideally into a zone where the defending defense (duh) has air superiority. Or you prefer to do the minnow thing and drop your strikers even further back, hassling the central midfielders, to keep the ball in the DC stratum where your goal isn't threatened and forcing build-up play over the flanks, where space is narrow and creativity is sparse.

TL;DR: Match Engine really not so good at build-up play in possession tactics. Sort it out, SI, it's been years already.

[Egecann]

I agree with this at some point. Crosses way too overpowered. Keeping a clean sheet is almost impossible

[ajsr1982]

I agree with this at some point. Crosses way too overpowered. Keeping a clean sheet is almost impossible

I disagree. I have the best defence in my league on my save. I'm not scoring so many at the other end, true, but I've kept plenty of clean sheets.

If you insist on playing 4-2-3-1, you have to accept that you're going to concede, particularly from crosses. Isolated full backs means it's an obvious place to attack. How many teams play a true 4-2-3-1 in reality? Bear in mind that the formation is essentially where your players stand when you're defending. In almost all cases it's a 4-5-1 that translates into a 4-2-3-1 when attacking.

As for crosses being overpowered. I'm not so sure about that. Lots of goals come from wide areas, true. If you look at the analysis tab at the end of the game, however, how many crosses are actually completed? Compare that to a real game. It's probably quite similar. There is perhaps an issue with stopping crosses coming in, ie, full backs defending narrow and being too slow to get out and close down, but that's as far as i'd go.

The match engine can be frustrating, but it's much truer to reality, in my opinion. Making space in the box isn't easy. But then, it shouldn't be.

[Finners]

Swap out the AMC for an anchor man and let your DLP push up a bit in to a support duty. You'll close out the big gap in the middle of the field and the anchor will add some shape and structure to a midfield that's currently very thin.

The RPL will do a lot of the work an AMC is doing anyway and your IFs should stop your striker getting isolated while the full backs are giving you width.

To put it in to real world terms, you're basically trying to be Barcelona only with Busquets subbed out for an extra attacker. That's fine in games where the opposition is so overwhelmed they can't get out of their own half but when the AI comes at you, you've got no ballast at the back giving you weight.

Seriously, just chuck a DMC in at half back or anchor and see what it does for a few games. I guarantee you won't particularly miss the AMC.

Alternatively, if your AMC can't be dropped, lose one of the IFs to DMC, nudge your striker over to the emptier side, put the full back from the empty side up to a wing back in attack or support, make the full back the other side more defensive and play asymmetrical.

Symmetry is overrated.

[swadeepc]

Thanks a lot everyone. Much appreciated for the response. I must admit I have never thought of it in this much details. I mean i do put in details but you've just showed me different way of thinking. I guess that's the difference between winning and losing. I'l try as you guys suggested definitely. If anyone has some recommended tactics on here that they can share with so i can try it and learn from it also then i would really be appreciated.

Thanks

Swadeep

[Finners]

I'm on my phone at the moment but I'll screenshot what I've got set up later, if I remember, and try and show you how it translates to actual match position.

[swadeepc]

I'm on my phone at the moment but I'll screenshot what I've got set up later, if I remember, and try and show you how it translates to actual match position.

YES! That would be great please. Thanks so much. Please show me the style you play and how you set up for it. If you don't mind might actually try and ask you few questions also. Look forward to seeing your set up.

Cheers

Swadeep

[swadeepc]

I'm on my phone at the moment but I'll screenshot what I've got set up later, if I remember, and try and show you how it translates to actual match position.

Hi there. Just writing to follow up. Any chance you can send me your set up and walk me through it for the tactics? Would appreciate it.

thanks

swadeep