chocolatecoatedballs Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 This has always been my problem with FM, maybe because I am not from the UK and the developers have a different view of things. It seems my view of roles/positions is very different to SI, do you find yourself thinking the same? Or do you want to educate me about the roles? AML/R Winger - For me this is an inside forward (the way SI has him playing), the way he moves and positions himself is how I see an inside forward. For me a winger in the AM stratus is like a wide midfielder, who in BP gets forward almost to be level with the strikers (stretching the defence) and in BPO presses the FB, but that's about it, he stays forward. Also when the BP is on the opposite flank he stays wide, until a cross comes in and he will make a run as a forward. Inside Forward - AML/R Inside forward - should be the SI interpretation of winger, he is to predictable, he should be a creative/flair player, though in game he is a one dimensional wide striker. He should be unpredictable, able to put in a cross, but prefers to cut inside for through balls, or to shoot. BWM (CM) - SI have this pretty right, but I want him to stay in midfield, he is there to win the ball in midfield, especially once transition has changed, I expect him in transition to press and win the ball back, while the team transitions into defence and the opposition transitions into attack. I don't want him as a defunct DM and I don't like the card count. Fullbacks - well there is a massive problem here, as a FB I can say I hate them. In BP they are OP and BPO they are terrible positionally (I hate them running to the box and then closing down the wide player late, it really does my head in). But I won't say to much on them, as there is a certain bug. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrw072 Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 I think the roles can be confusing at times too! To be honest, I think there are a few too many! I think you're more or less there with how you describe the roles. This is how I see each position you mention in general terms IRL. Winger - he's there to stretch the play and to attack the full back and get crosses in. I wouldn't necessarily expect him to be level with the strikers, but he can support the attack when the team goes forward. Maybe not so much now, but wingers are very popular in English football, because they allow the team to attack directly with pace. And that's basically what the fans want to see. Inside Forward - Basically a winger who doesn't cross the ball as much, or is overly reliant on one foot, so he drifts inside a lot. Something that a winger is less likely to do. I think the expectation would be for him to join in with the attacks moreso too. For me a good example of this kind of player would be how Sissoko plays for Newcastle. I think a BWM is really there as a spoiler. So the better players can play. I'm not sure if you'll remember him, but Vinnie Jones would be a good example there. Someone with limited skill but allows the more creative players to get some space/time on the ball. Can be a real key player if used correctly! Full-backs - a defender who can support the attacks/break up play on the flanks really. I guess it's all open to interpretation, but hope this gives you some help/guidance. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawlore Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 Roles as a concept is a good one, but at least up to FM15, the game did a poor job of explaining what they were. I haven't spent significant time with the FM16 demo yet, so can't fairly comment on the changes that have been made for FM16. However, in previous versions, it has all-too-often been a case of "select a role based on the vague text and then find out what it does differently to other roles by watching", rather than "decide what you want to do, and have the appropriate role selected for those instructions". As this thread shows, the roles are SI's interpretations of the roles, and mean specific things which may not align with what a user understands a role to mean outside of the game. I've said before, I'll say again- the challenge of the game should be in getting the right tactics for the situation to overcome an opponent, not in being unable to communicate the tactics you want to implement in the first place. In that respect, badly-explained predefined roles become a hindrance, not a shortcut. The tactics creator is a powerful tool that allows you to do a lot- the Tactics Forum is evidence of that. But a chainsaw is a powerful tool as well, and if I don't know how to use it, I'm gonna end up lopping my arm off. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chocolatecoatedballs Posted December 10, 2015 Author Share Posted December 10, 2015 I think the roles can be confusing at times too! To be honest, I think there are a few too many! I think you're more or less there with how you describe the roles. This is how I see each position you mention in general terms IRL. Winger - he's there to stretch the play and to attack the full back and get crosses in. I wouldn't necessarily expect him to be level with the strikers, but he can support the attack when the team goes forward. Maybe not so much now, but wingers are very popular in English football, because they allow the team to attack directly with pace. And that's basically what the fans want to see. Inside Forward - Basically a winger who doesn't cross the ball as much, or is overly reliant on one foot, so he drifts inside a lot. Something that a winger is less likely to do. I think the expectation would be for him to join in with the attacks moreso too. For me a good example of this kind of player would be how Sissoko plays for Newcastle. I think a BWM is really there as a spoiler. So the better players can play. I'm not sure if you'll remember him, but Vinnie Jones would be a good example there. Someone with limited skill but allows the more creative players to get some space/time on the ball. Can be a real key player if used correctly! Full-backs - a defender who can support the attacks/break up play on the flanks really. I guess it's all open to interpretation, but hope this gives you some help/guidance. Mate I agree with everything you have said, I don't think SI get it. Take the B2B, I don't think you know these players, but Mat McKay or Mark Milligan were B2B (the mentality focus could and should impact it), but the B2B does not play like them. Sorry I don't have an English player to support my view. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chocolatecoatedballs Posted December 10, 2015 Author Share Posted December 10, 2015 Roles as a concept is a good one, but at least up to FM15, the game did a poor job of explaining what they were. I haven't spent significant time with the FM16 demo yet, so can't fairly comment on the changes that have been made for FM16.However, in previous versions, it has all-too-often been a case of "select a role based on the vague text and then find out what it does differently to other roles by watching", rather than "decide what you want to do, and have the appropriate role selected for those instructions". As this thread shows, the roles are SI's interpretations of the roles, and mean specific things which may not align with what a user understands a role to mean outside of the game. I've said before, I'll say again- the challenge of the game should be in getting the right tactics for the situation to overcome an opponent, not in being unable to communicate the tactics you want to implement in the first place. In that respect, badly-explained predefined roles become a hindrance, not a shortcut. The tactics creator is a powerful tool that allows you to do a lot- the Tactics Forum is evidence of that. But a chainsaw is a powerful tool as well, and if I don't know how to use it, I'm gonna end up lopping my arm off. Correct, the roles are just place names for FM, it is up to you to figure them out and try to play the way you want. It's just a bit disappointing when you can't play the way you want, because the roles do not fit. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
spankie Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 Correct, the roles are just place names for FM, it is up to you to figure them out and try to play the way you want. It's just a bit disappointing when you can't play the way you want, because the roles do not fit. You can change the player instrauctions and that may help getting the player to play as you want. It's even possible to make one role play in a similar way to another using PIs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chocolatecoatedballs Posted December 10, 2015 Author Share Posted December 10, 2015 You can change the player instrauctions and that may help getting the player to play as you want. It's even possible to make one role play in a similar way to another using PIs. Try to make an AMR/L to play as a wide midfielder, the main role is to put in crosses. without PPM it is impossible and even with PPM it's a bit hit and miss as they always drift infield. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HUNT3R Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 If all you had were the role names, I'd agree with the OP. You don't though. You have the name, the description, the description for that duty, default player instructions and key attributes to give you an idea of the role. Then you also have the ME to watch exactly what he does. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chocolatecoatedballs Posted December 10, 2015 Author Share Posted December 10, 2015 One role I would love is an attacking midfielder that stays wide, looks to cross and presses the FB. There is no role like that in FM16 and hard to implement. No I do not want a ML, they do not get forward enough in BP. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chocolatecoatedballs Posted December 10, 2015 Author Share Posted December 10, 2015 If all you had were the role names, I'd agree with the OP. You don't though.You have the name, the description, the description for that duty, default player instructions and key attributes to give you an idea of the role. Then you also have the ME to watch exactly what he does. Desription is much to be desired and my perceived conception of the player role may fit the ambiguous description, but on the ptch will play so different from what I expected them to play. Watching ME, this is what has made me post this. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HUNT3R Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 Desription, is much to be desired.Watching ME, this is what has made me post this. Again , you have more than just descriptions. AML/R Wingers will narrow when as advanced as the 18 yard area. It's intended bahaviour. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
spankie Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 Again , you have more than just descriptions.AML/R Wingers will narrow when as advanced as the 18 yard area. It's intended bahaviour. It's probably intended as usually AML/Rs are used in single striker formations to get more bodies in the box. What about Wingers set to Attack? They should play in a similar position as AML/R when in possession and I think Wingers stay wider more often that WMs. I think they may allow a PI to stay wider. If set to cross from the byline they should stay wide most of the time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chocolatecoatedballs Posted December 10, 2015 Author Share Posted December 10, 2015 Again , you have more than just descriptions.AML/R Wingers will narrow when as advanced as the 18 yard area. It's intended bahaviour. Where does the description tell me that? That is not my expectation of an AML/R Winger, as I has expressed what I feel the roles represent to myself, they should stay wide, unless the ball is crossed in from the other side, then they should make a run (my description/expectation of a winger in AML/R role). But thankyou for telling me how it is, I appreciate it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chocolatecoatedballs Posted December 10, 2015 Author Share Posted December 10, 2015 It's probably intended as usually AML/Rs are used in single striker formations to get more bodies in the box.What about Wingers set to Attack? They should play in a similar position as AML/R when in possession and I think Wingers stay wider more often that WMs. I think they may allow a PI to stay wider. If set to cross from the byline they should stay wide most of the time. PI do a limited amount, they still seem very central to me with every PI to get wide. The only way to combat it is with PPM Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HUNT3R Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 Where does the description tell me that?That is not my expectation of an AML/R Winger, as I has expressed what I feel the roles represent to myself, they should stay wide, unless the ball is crossed in from the other side, then they should make a run (my description/expectation of a winger in AML/R role). But thankyou for telling me how it is, I appreciate it. For the third time now, you have more than just the descriptions? And again, you can see what the roles do in the ME. By the way, you may find this of interest. community.sigames.com/showthread.php/441151-Wingers-acting-like-Inside-Forwards-in-final-third Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chocolatecoatedballs Posted December 10, 2015 Author Share Posted December 10, 2015 For the third time now, you have more than just the descriptions? And again, you can see what the roles do in the ME.By the way, you may find this of interest. community.sigames.com/showthread.php/441151-Wingers-acting-like-Inside-Forwards-in-final-third 1/ thanks mate, you have been a real boon. 2/ cheers mate, I will look at the thread, it seems to be my thing. 3/ AML/R are not the only descriptors I have trouble with/disagree with. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
s1111 Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 Inside Forward - Basically a winger who doesn't cross the ball as much, or is overly reliant on one foot, so he drifts inside a lot. Something that a winger is less likely to do. I think the expectation would be for him to join in with the attacks moreso too. For me a good example of this kind of player would be how Sissoko plays for Newcastle. I guess it's all open to interpretation, but hope this gives you some help/guidance. An inside forward is a player like Neymar or Robben who plays as almost as a wide striker, cutting inside onto their strongest foot. My interpretation of Sissoko would be a Wide Midfielder Support with instructions to Get Further Forward and Dribble More. The best way to understand roles is to think of a real player and work out what role he has in FM terms. The roles are all based on how real players play. Some of them are very obscure too, Georgios Samaras is more or less the only Wide Targetman Support I can possibly think of. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chocolatecoatedballs Posted December 10, 2015 Author Share Posted December 10, 2015 An inside forward is a player like Neymar or Robben who plays as almost as a wide striker, cutting inside onto their strongest foot.My interpretation of Sissoko would be a Wide Midfielder Support with instructions to Get Further Forward and Dribble More. The best way to understand roles is to think of a real player and work out what role he has in FM terms. The roles are all based on how real players play. Some of them are very obscure too, Georgios Samaras is more or less the only Wide Targetman Support I can possibly think of. I don't watch much English football, but my epitome of an inside forward would be Robben. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chocolatecoatedballs Posted December 10, 2015 Author Share Posted December 10, 2015 Again , you have more than just descriptions.AML/R Wingers will narrow when as advanced as the 18 yard area. It's intended bahaviour. But I may not want my advanced winger doing this, I don't want him to go narrow, I want him to stay wide. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 How about playing them in the ML/R position with an attack duty? Another option is to look for players with appropriate PPM's or train existing players to stay wide. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
isignedupfornorealreason Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 If all you had were the role names, I'd agree with the OP. You don't though.You have the name, the description, the description for that duty, default player instructions and key attributes to give you an idea of the role. Then you also have the ME to watch exactly what he does. To help those who struggle with identifying things watching the ME, I always thought SI could do short video-clips showing how the player acts in that role/duty in defence, transition and attack. With some pro/cons and some 'complimentary' roles. - All of that would be part of a huuuuuuge tutorial though! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chocolatecoatedballs Posted December 10, 2015 Author Share Posted December 10, 2015 How about playing them in the ML/R position with an attack duty? Another option is to look for players with appropriate PPM's or train existing players to stay wide. As I said ML/R do not get positionally forward as much as I would like. As I said the only way to get around it is through PPM's, though that still is a bit hit and miss, as his role/position dictates more than his PPM. I understand what is happening, I understand what (in the 'game') I must do. What I have a problem with is the role descriptors, it is not what I expect from the descriptor. it is only FB I can get into wide attacking areas, but I don't always want that, especially in lower leagues. I must change my way of thinking of football, to what football manager wants me to think, then it starts to get a bit gamey. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 Unfortunately there can only be one description and by its very nature it will be subjective. If you disagree with any of the descriptions or feel that players are consistently playing in a way that does not match the description the best course of action is to raise the subject in the ME bugs forum & when doing so provide plenty of match pkm examples for SI to consider your opinion. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chocolatecoatedballs Posted December 10, 2015 Author Share Posted December 10, 2015 Unfortunately there can only be one description and by its very nature it will be subjective.If you disagree with any of the descriptions or feel that players are consistently playing in a way that does not match the description the best course of action is to raise the subject in the ME bugs forum & when doing so provide plenty of match pkm examples for SI to consider your opinion. My ISP will not allow me to upload pkm's how SI want me to, so I am limited that way. Maybe I am an idiot and don't understand football, let's leave it at that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 You do not need to use FileZilla, what OS are you using? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chocolatecoatedballs Posted December 10, 2015 Author Share Posted December 10, 2015 Windows 10 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 You can upload through windows explorer, it's what I do & I'm on W10. I'll post steps to setup when I get home. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chocolatecoatedballs Posted December 10, 2015 Author Share Posted December 10, 2015 ok mate, that would be helpful. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
themadsheep2001 Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 ok mate, that would be helpful. open windows explorer. In the filepath area type: ftp.sigames.com When prompted enter the username and password below. Username: ftp-public Password: public Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chocolatecoatedballs Posted December 10, 2015 Author Share Posted December 10, 2015 all right, sounds easy enough. Wait there is no windows explorer anymore, hahaha I get it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chocolatecoatedballs Posted December 10, 2015 Author Share Posted December 10, 2015 so where should I post my thinking on positions/roles? Bugs forum under ME? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 ME section is the right place. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chocolatecoatedballs Posted December 10, 2015 Author Share Posted December 10, 2015 great mate, if the pkm thing works, I will include YT matches to highlight my thoughts, thanks. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar2010 Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 But I may not want my advanced winger doing this, I don't want him to go narrow, I want him to stay wide. One thing that hasn't been mentioned throughout is that there are two teams on the pitch. You might want and instruct your AML/R top stay wide but if the opposition fullbacks are forcing him inside via OIs then that is outside of your control. Just because you want something to happen doesn't mean the opposition will let you do it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chocolatecoatedballs Posted December 10, 2015 Author Share Posted December 10, 2015 One thing that hasn't been mentioned throughout is that there are two teams on the pitch.You might want and instruct your AML/R top stay wide but if the opposition fullbacks are forcing him inside via OIs then that is outside of your control. Just because you want something to happen doesn't mean the opposition will let you do it. Well with the FB bug having them tuck in next to the CB, there is often plenty of space for them to get into. But AML/R wingers want to cut in, or position narrow when in BP, when maybe they should stay wide to spread the defence, or to put in a cross. Now I personally don't want both wide midfielders to do this, but I would like one to exploit the space that is available. If he is closed down wide then the opposition defence is more spread out, if not he can get a cross in. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chocolatecoatedballs Posted December 10, 2015 Author Share Posted December 10, 2015 Never mind Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chocolatecoatedballs Posted December 13, 2015 Author Share Posted December 13, 2015 bellerabi would be the quintessential AM Winger. Prefers to stay wide, puts in a cross, occasionally cuts in, but this is how I see a AM winger. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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