Mr U Rosler Posted December 14, 2015 Share Posted December 14, 2015 Hi, Just got my Maidstone team promoted to League 2. My main problem is we’re losing £100k per month. I’m only using 20k a week of my £28k wage budget so I’m not pushing the finances in this area. I’m selling out my Stadium every week with gates of 4,000 (average for League 2). Could get more in I think but the Stadium Expansion would cost a fortune and we’re already in debt. Even with £0 player wages I would be losing money. My monthly expenses are nearly £300,000 with only £80,000 of this in wages. Am I missing a trick here? Weirdly i made £500,000 profit in a season in the Conference South! (I have about a 70% chance of getting promoted straight into League 1 where I think my money worries would be over, but would be good to understand anyway, + if I miss promotion things look really bleak.) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWaRFeGa Posted December 14, 2015 Share Posted December 14, 2015 Paying off any bank loans? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr U Rosler Posted December 14, 2015 Author Share Posted December 14, 2015 £1500 per month. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWaRFeGa Posted December 14, 2015 Share Posted December 14, 2015 Hmmm, not a big chunk then. To be honest it all sounds fairly normal. Always in my LLM life I've encountered losses each month. A good cup run can help boost it, plus an away game against a larger club on a free weekend. When it gets to a certain point, the board tend to inject a large amount to take you back into good figures. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andychar Posted December 14, 2015 Share Posted December 14, 2015 I'm Mansfield at the moment and have the same problem. I'm losing money hand over fist despite not spending any more I allowed in wages. It seems it just part and parcel of being involved in LLM. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hluraven Posted December 14, 2015 Share Posted December 14, 2015 It is fairly realistic, teams at that level (Conference anyway) largely lose money month by month, and survive from a combination of occasional cup runs and big player sales, with the chairman chipping in when necessary. The losses are small, so the windfalls can last many years. However, one area I feel is odd is when I turned professional (still in the conference) it was some very odd expenses that tripled. Travel costs, match day expenses and ground maintenance all more than tripled. I could understand a very small rise in travel costs if it is assumed that a pro team travel in more luxury, but I don't see a trebling in any of these. My competition level and ground were unchanged in that time, so there shouldn't have been a difference. By far the most unrealistic part of the OP is making £500,000 in the Conference South though! That would never happen! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrdanbartlett Posted December 14, 2015 Share Posted December 14, 2015 This is just LLM in any FM, you can never make any money, and I suspect that is true in real life, even in the champ you cannot break even with any side. I'd say unless someone goes and looks in detail at the financials of some of these clubs in real life and compares them to FM then we just have to assume FM is right and this is how it is. Even when you get to being a really big Prem side the expenses just unexplicably creep up and up, I've been paying out about 10m a month before to 'other' and 'non football costs', when I once made Sheffield Utd the worlds number 1 side I was struggling to make any money due to huge tax bills and huge board dividends. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThunderZtormDK Posted December 14, 2015 Share Posted December 14, 2015 So how do you slowly build up a club from lower league to higher? How do you ever get the money to build a bigger stadium or improve the one you have? Do you just have to force the promotions through, get to the PL and then all problems are over? Or is it actually possible to slowly build up? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrdanbartlett Posted December 14, 2015 Share Posted December 14, 2015 Basically the chairman just bails the club out each year hopefully! Or the debt grows, club borrows money, gets worse......and yes hopefully you reach the Prem before you've had too many spells in admin! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
QWERTYOP Posted December 14, 2015 Share Posted December 14, 2015 The financial side of things has always been completely ridiculous in the lower leagues in this game. You have to sell everything you can possibly get your hands on at every given opportunity, find a million pound player to flog every year, and play nine thousand friendly matches just to hope to break even. I get that lower league finances are tight, but come on. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dezso Posted December 14, 2015 Share Posted December 14, 2015 Ive given up on trying to stay within budget in my current save. Was stuck in Conference south for four-five seasons and nothing changed. Small losses every year, but no way out of the red numbers accumulating. Somehow the wage budget was still much bigger than i spent. And expectation was allways "try to avoid relegation". I got tired of it and signed better (more expensive players), and started winning more. Finally won promotion... Big red numbers now, but the board chips in now and then. All the clubs in the division do the same. I really dont like this aspect of the game. There should be a more strict settings for the AI also. Or a setting for it or something. (I might be wrong, its only my experiences with FM over the years) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrientTillIDie Posted December 15, 2015 Share Posted December 15, 2015 I'm an Orient fan (as my handle suggests) and attended numerous meetings with the Chairman and board while Barry Hearn owned the club. He said year on year that we made consistent 6 figure losses and he covered them by injecting money into the club. And this was as a League 1 side! Unless you get a big money investor, when do you see lower league teams getting new stadiums? It just doesn't really happen. I think the game is pretty realistic to be honest. Sometimes I lean towards getting annoyed because the wage budget gets dramatically decreased despite improving on last season's position but generally it's pretty accurate. Example: On FM14, I got Macclesfield promoted to the Prem after a very long stint in charge (took me 12 seasons). I was still playing at their original ground in my last season in the Championship because financially we weren't stable. All the money in English football is in the top division. On an opposite note, on FM15 I got promoted from the Conference with Altrincham and they decided they had enough money to build a new ground (we didn't). Despite getting promoted, I ended up with a wage budget half the size of the one I had in the Conference and subsequently finished stone dead last. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr U Rosler Posted December 15, 2015 Author Share Posted December 15, 2015 I got promoted to League 1 anyway but i did get a decent solidarity payment of about £350k i think it was at the end of my league 2 season, i think with average gates and tight financial management break even in league 2 might be possible afterall. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar2010 Posted December 15, 2015 Share Posted December 15, 2015 The financial side of things has always been completely ridiculous in the lower leagues in this game. You have to sell everything you can possibly get your hands on at every given opportunity, find a million pound player to flog every year, and play nine thousand friendly matches just to hope to break even. I get that lower league finances are tight, but come on. Sorry but its not ridiculous, its what happens IRL. If you think there is lots of money floating around clubs then you are out of touch with reality. Finding financial information for some clubs is difficult but here are a few: Championship side Rotherham Utd: http://www.rothbiz.co.uk/2015/04/news-4151-impressive-results-for.html Turnover for Y/E 31.12.14 = £10.98m, Profit was £167k. Turnover for Y/E 31.12.13 = £7.07m and they made a loss of £477k League 2 side Bristol Rovers: http://www.bristolpost.co.uk/Rickie-Lambert-s-financial-bonus-Bristol-Rovers/story-26014443-detail/story.html Y/E 30.06.13 - Loss of £781,911 Y/E 30.06.14 - Loss of £566,408 (That was after receiving close to £470k from the sale of Rickie Lambert from Southampton to Liverpool) Total liabilities exceed total assets by over £5m. League 1 side Sheffield Utd: http://www.sufc.co.uk/documents/su-ltd-statutory-accounts-30-june-2014-fully-signed135-2104652.pdf Y/E 30.06.13 - Loss of £13m Y/E 30.06.14 - Loss of £3.5m (Both from page 8 of the accounts) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
phnompenhandy Posted December 15, 2015 Share Posted December 15, 2015 I got promoted from the Conference with Altrincham and they decided they had enough money to build a new ground (we didn't). Despite getting promoted, I ended up with a wage budget half the size of the one I had in the Conference and subsequently finished stone dead last. George Reynolds ruining Darlington? I think the frustration of LL finances is extremely realistic. As an FM manager all you can do is keep the wage budget under control - the rest is down to your incompetent board. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
spankie Posted December 15, 2015 Share Posted December 15, 2015 George Reynolds ruining Darlington? I think the frustration of LL finances is extremely realistic. As an FM manager all you can do is keep the wage budget under control - the rest is down to your incompetent board. Ain't that the truth, there is absolutely nothing you can do about going in debt. All you can hope for is discovering a player with huge potential who you flog for a lot of money or a good FA Cup run ending with an away day to a big EPL club. There's a reason why in the third round the owners of lower league clubs are so estatic with drawing Man Utd away. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daffius Posted December 15, 2015 Share Posted December 15, 2015 George Reynolds ruining Darlington? I think the frustration of LL finances is extremely realistic. As an FM manager all you can do is keep the wage budget under control - the rest is down to your incompetent board. I always struggle with that and find it unrewarding. Reason being I try to staw waaay below my wage budget and sell any half decent players I have to keep it out of the red (or only loose a little money). The alternative however is to keep your best players and fully utilise all the available resources you have and... wait for the chairman to pump in funds every 4-5 months. It basically deincentivises you from trying to stay in the black. Players should somehow be rewarded for shrewd spending as it currently is, being €1k under the wage budget or €30k under the wage budget (from €65) is basically the same. I've actually lost players because of agent fees and signing on fees. I never send on intensive language courses, too expensive. When I could forget all that and just get the board booster pack. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrdanbartlett Posted December 15, 2015 Share Posted December 15, 2015 Just a bit of info - Salford have a 'background' sugar-daddy so if you take over them (after holidaying to see if they get promoted) then it's a good save as the board clear the debt each year, they budgets are small so it's still a v hard save but it's nice knowing the board will reset the finances each year. Currently I'm in league 2 with them and my wage budget is £16k per week. This has allowed me to build a mid table side. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
xambo Posted December 15, 2015 Share Posted December 15, 2015 In lower leagues the finances are always difficult. Your club will most likely keep losing money during the season then at the end the prize money and tv money will make up a little. Although the big tv money will start coming once you reach the premier league. With my Ebbsfleet team I was lucky enough when I reached League 2 the Chairman decided to build a new stadium. Which did give the club a big 4.7 million loan but in the long run I think it will balance out with the ticket sales. The only thing you can control financially are the wages and the transfer market. Therefore I recommend you keep the wages to a minimum and sell player with a profit whenever you get a chance. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
QWERTYOP Posted December 15, 2015 Share Posted December 15, 2015 Sorry but its not ridiculous, its what happens IRL.If you think there is lots of money floating around clubs then you are out of touch with reality. If you think I said that, then YOU are out of touch with reality. It's possible for clubs to live within their means without having to flog everything including the carpets in the boardroom. I know this - I've followed a "lower league" club all my life. The way the game is set up for lower league clubs smacks of a game that's made by supporters of clubs that have never been below Championship level. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andychar Posted December 15, 2015 Share Posted December 15, 2015 Reading through this thread has made me feel better about my finances at Mansfield being very red! Seems its unavoidable in some cases and sometimes its part and parcel of success. The more your overachieving the more the club is going to have to risk its finances in order to give you the funds so you can carry on doing your job. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar2010 Posted December 15, 2015 Share Posted December 15, 2015 If you think I said that, then YOU are out of touch with reality. Thats exactly what you said, do I really need to quote your exact wording again? It's possible for clubs to live within their means without having to flog everything including the carpets in the boardroom. I know this - I've followed a "lower league" club all my life. The way the game is set up for lower league clubs smacks of a game that's made by supporters of clubs that have never been below Championship level. How many clubs live within their means? If you have evidence provide it, I've linked three random clubs above who in RL have made significant losses (One at each level - Champ, L1 & L2). Which club do you follow IRL and lets have a look at their financial situation. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SI Staff Francis Mooney Posted December 15, 2015 SI Staff Share Posted December 15, 2015 Financial break down from teams in the Blue Square Premier. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
QWERTYOP Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 Thats exactly what you said, do I really need to quote your exact wording again? I said nothing of the sort. Not even close to it. I even said "I get that lower league finances are tight"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Weirdest post I've ever seen here by a long, long way. You confuse me. Bye-bye. Bizarre. Absolutely bizarre. Beyond bizarre in fact. Incredible stuff. I'm afraid I have to block you now, because idiocy makes my brain hurt. Sorry. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
phnompenhandy Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 The way the game is set up for lower league clubs smacks of a game that's made by supporters of clubs that have never been below Championship level. To be fair, SI have had a very close relationship with AFC Wimbledon since its foundation. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar2010 Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 I said nothing of the sort. Not even close to it. I even said "I get that lower league finances are tight"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Weirdest post I've ever seen here by a long, long way. You confuse me. Bye-bye. Bizarre. Absolutely bizarre. Beyond bizarre in fact. Incredible stuff. I'm afraid I have to block you now, because idiocy makes my brain hurt. Sorry. Bizarre is a good word, lets have a look at your post: The financial side of things has always been completely ridiculous in the lower leagues in this game. You have to sell everything you can possibly get your hands on at every given opportunity, find a million pound player to flog every year, and play nine thousand friendly matches just to hope to break even. I get that lower league finances are tight, but come on. The financial side of things has always been completely ridiculous in the lower leagues in this game You have to sell everything you can possibly get your hands on at every given opportunity find a million pound player to flog every year and play nine thousand friendly matches just to hope to break even I get that lower league finances are tight, but come on Each of the five parts of your post implies there is something wrong and that the lower league finances aren't on a par with RL which is not true at all. Now you have been picked up on it you are trying to twist words, shift blame & back track on what you said Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 Please stop with the back & forth bickering. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
uğurcan Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 I'd love to hear one of the SI team members comment about this aspect of the game. Would be interesting. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkbacca Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 Basic Soccernomics, football clubs generally don't turn a profit - Man Utd are (certainly in England) the exception and 99% of clubs will make losses. In FM I tend not to worry, in my LLM save I've usually 200/300k in debt at the end of a season, get my prize money £500k (ish) and repeat the cycle. Cup runs and the transfer market are usually the only thing that will have positive effects on the bank balance. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slushpop Posted December 20, 2015 Share Posted December 20, 2015 Does anyone know what non football costs are in the game as theses cost seem to put me under if it wasnt for them i would be churning a profit each season Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Welshace Posted December 20, 2015 Share Posted December 20, 2015 "Amount of non-football staff wages paid out by the club" Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
withnail316 Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 I haven't really played in the English lower leagues since FM11, but I always found the key was to limit appearance fees, always ensure there was no automatic pay rise upon promotion, and try not to let the number of coaches & scouts get out of hand. I'd also recommend you play two friendly cups against big clubs in pre-season. They'll be televised if you're playing PL sides, and the money you make from them can be enough to keep you in the black for the whole season. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThunderZtormDK Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 I haven't really played in the English lower leagues since FM11, but I always found the key was to limit appearance fees, always ensure there was no automatic pay rise upon promotion, and try not to let the number of coaches & scouts get out of hand. I'd also recommend you play two friendly cups against big clubs in pre-season. They'll be televised if you're playing PL sides, and the money you make from them can be enough to keep you in the black for the whole season. The latter one doesn't work anymore. I agree on especially the promotion pay raises (I screwed up there in my game). I'm managing Boston United, just hit my 5th season and I'm now in League One. I've got a decent squad, well within wage budget and I've spent a grand total of £20k on transfers in my first 4 years. I've even been far in the FA Cup twice, and won the FA Trophy too. I am, currently, £700k in the red. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr U Rosler Posted December 21, 2015 Author Share Posted December 21, 2015 The latter one doesn't work anymore.I agree on especially the promotion pay raises (I screwed up there in my game). I'm managing Boston United, just hit my 5th season and I'm now in League One. I've got a decent squad, well within wage budget and I've spent a grand total of £20k on transfers in my first 4 years. I've even been far in the FA Cup twice, and won the FA Trophy too. I am, currently, £700k in the red. I just had a league 1 solidarity payment of £750k, was able to break even on the season with £500k of player sales. Can just about keep you head above water in league 1, even with gates of only 5500. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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