Help needed with my formation/tactics, please.

[Finknottle]

I used to be 'oescus' but I found that I could not login using my original details. I 've had to change to my new ones. I did use the contact option on quite a few occasions but have never had a reply. Right, explanations over, now to my troubles.

I had decent success prior to FM16 using the following formation/tactics but they don't seem to work this time. They have been made as per the pairs & combinations and all the other official guides. I play as Liverpool using a 4-2-3-1 wide formation thus.

GK [D], RFB , LWB [A], both CD's [D]

RCM [DLP], LCM [bBM]

RW [A], AMC [AP] S, IF S]

AF [A].

My team instructions are the recommended ones from the Pairs & Combinations guide, thus.

Pass shorter, retain possession, play out of defence, work ball into the box, lower tempo, push higher up, get stuck in and close down more. I leave the player instructions as default. I also use 'standard' and 'Flexible' as I have two specialist roles.

I seem to be able to get decent possession but very few shots on goal. That's about it, can anyone please assist? I'm loathe to use third party custom made tactics but I seem to be spending too much time trying to fix my problems and getting nowhere. I would have liked to put up pictures but find it difficult to do correctly. Sorry.

[OrientTillIDie]

You will have less shots because you're using Retain Possession so if a clear shooting opportunity doesn't present itself then no-one will shoot. Also, because you're working the ball into the box, there's more chance of the opposition breaking your moves down because not enough dangerous passes are being made. I used to play systems like yours until I realised that sometimes you can't beat a good old fashioned cross. If you're playing as Liverpool, surely you have Benteke? So why would you not cross the ball to one of the deadliest aerial threats in the PL?

What duties do you have your two CMs as? I'd also be interested to know what players you play in those roles as that can also have an effect. Basically, IMO that setup lends itself to 1-0 victories where you pass the opposition to death.

[Finknottle]

You will have less shots because you're using Retain Possession so if a clear shooting opportunity doesn't present itself then no-one will shoot. Also, because you're working the ball into the box, there's more chance of the opposition breaking your moves down because not enough dangerous passes are being made. I used to play systems like yours until I realised that sometimes you can't beat a good old fashioned cross. If you're playing as Liverpool, surely you have Benteke? So why would you not cross the ball to one of the deadliest aerial threats in the PL?

What duties do you have your two CMs as? I'd also be interested to know what players you play in those roles as that can also have an effect. Basically, IMO that setup lends itself to 1-0 victories where you pass the opposition to death.

Thanks for your help, OrientTillIDie. My CML is a CM [DEF] and my CMR is a CM [bBM]. My team set up is taken from the 4-2-3-1 example in the Pairs & Combinations guide on page 36.

I shall make use of Benteke as soon as he recovers from injury, the same as Mignolet.

[Finknottle]

Tactics. by The Egyptian., on Flickr

I hope that there is a shot of my formation/tactics in here. If so, could someone who knows better than I please advise on same? As you can see, in my 4-2-3-1 wide, Liverpool set up, I have got most of my best players in heir best positions and roles/duties. I have also been guided by wwfan's Twelve steps, although just how well I've done is probably debateable.

my TI's are as follows. Control/Very fluid,

Tempo = normal,

TW = fairly rarely,

Width = balanced,

DEFENCE.

DF = slightly higher,

use offside,

CD = more.

BUILD UP.

play out of defence,

shorter passing.

ATTACK.

work into box,

low crosses,

run at defence.

The TI's are the part of the game that I always seem to struggle with and apart from the GK and the two CD's, I leave the PI's on default.

My formation, I believe, is the best one for Liverpool because they have a very unbalanced squad, for instance they have only one bonafide winger, Jordon Ibe. Another problem is trying to have a formation in which I can fit all/most of my best players into and in their best roles/duties. I have managed to get five players into their best positions/roles. I have pushed Moreno up to an attacking FB to use the space vacated by Coutinho cutting inside and , when he is fit, using Sakho as a BPD as he rates high in that role/duty. Apart from that, I'm stuck.

I have been using various third party 'stuff' in FM 16 but they seem to run out of steam after a while. This is about my tenth attempt to make my own tactic and I am in need of assistance. Muchly thankings.

[summatsupeer]

The main problem with using tactics other people make is your players might not suit it. Look at the 4231 formation and highlight where the natural space is. Then consider if the players required to defend that space have the attributes to do it or if they need help.

Roles+Duties need to work together as a team, just because you put the players on what the game says is best for them doesn't mean they will work well as a group. That before you throw a load of TI's at them.

You also haven't highlighted any issues you've seen when watching the games, "I seem to be able to get decent possession but very few shots on goal" isn't enough. At the most basic level you need to look what you do well and what you don't. How do you lose possession before creating a chance? How do you give up chances?

[Finknottle]

The main problem with using tactics other people make is your players might not suit it. Look at the 4231 formation and highlight where the natural space is. Then consider if the players required to defend that space have the attributes to do it or if they need help.

Roles+Duties need to work together as a team, just because you put the players on what the game says is best for them doesn't mean they will work well as a group. That before you throw a load of TI's at them.

You also haven't highlighted any issues you've seen when watching the games, "I seem to be able to get decent possession but very few shots on goal" isn't enough. At the most basic level you need to look what you do well and what you don't. How do you lose possession before creating a chance? How do you give up chances?

summatsupeer, thanks for the reply. I seem to have misled you, sorry. I only intended to bring to peoples attention the post of today, that is post #4. It is a new save with a formation/tactic of my own making. I would just like some peoples general perusal of what I have put together. Perhaps some comments on my players roles/duties and assistance where I might improve the tactic.

[summatsupeer]

No problem, but you still haven't said what your actually looking for. The instructions and tactic you've made might not translate to what you actually want.

I don't know what will happen exactly, different players can play the same role differently and depends on those around them. Thats why you need to try it and see the issues, anything else is guess work, however educated the guesses are.

All I can say from that is there's a couple of things that I don't think will fit well. When you try it watch for:

1. "Very Fluid" will give your players lots of freedom to deviate from your instructions. Attack duty = play your natural game. Support = Improvise Much More. Defend = Improvise More.

Your fullbacks natural preference is to bomb forward. Central Midfielders do not "shield" central defenders or provide deep cover for the FBs as there position is too advanced (before even considering your BBM's roaming instruction). Hence there will be space in front, behind and on the flanks of your central defenders. Your central defenders aren't great at defending space.

2. "Run at Defence", "Work Ball Into Box" combined with roles+duties that have cross often and lots of forward runs. Your asking them to run in behind the opposition or to take them on and beat them and put low crosses in, but then to work the ball patiently into the box. What options do your FB-A and W-A have if they're wide and behind the defence? Just keep running or pull it back to a supporting player?

A little Liverpool tip, check your Assistant Managers reports for team talks and check your squads level of understands, its not good at the start of the game even before you transfer anyone so needs lots of Team Cohesion training.

[Finknottle]

With regards to the 'fluid/very fluid' observation, I tend to agree with you but in wwfans twelve steps guide, on page two it suggests , as a good rule of thumb generally that to consider the either or roles. 0-1 specialist roles, very fluid. 1-2 specialist roles, fluid. So that is how I have set up.

However, I seem to recall reading somewhere else in the forums a query about just the same subject but have not been able to find it again. I have written down your other observations and shall act upon them accordingly. I should add that I am also thinking of not using any TI's at all as some people play in that manner. Thanks for your help, feel free to comment further after I've got into the season proper.

[summatsupeer]

Don't take things as 100% factual must be followed exactly as written. I view it as wwfans philosophy on how to balance your teams unpredictability through a balance of specialist players and generic roles. Which is great so your team doesn't either become 1 dimensional or so unstructured that it loses the effect of the specialist roles.

Even if we do take that guide as written, then your AP is a specialist so you could drop to Fluid. I class the Complete Forward as a specialist (so a full 1 not 0.5), he has a lot of instructions that makes him do a lot of different things often. So that means you could drop to Standard. wwfan even says you can interpret things differently, especially since it doesn't take into account your players or formation.

[edtheguy]

Keep in mind that things have changed in FM 16, see THOG's thread http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/442751-Important-FM16-Tactical-Changes

I have butchered a fair number of tactics this year and am pretty good at spotting problems. As far as fixing them well, not so much.

I'll second the opinion that you should look at your team instructions. I think one of your bigger problems is space - one of the effects of a very fluid shape is that it will move the players closer together. I believe that is also one of the effects of the control mentality. Shorter passing will also draw them closer together. Then they are told to work the ball into the box, but there is no one in a position to get into the box because they are all 'bunched' too close together. Their space would be even more compressed because the d-line is pushing up (not a bad thing in a 4231). It wouldn't surprise me if you often see players dwelling on the ball, not finding any passing options and finally being closed down and the other team launching counter attacks.

My other concern would be your two players trying to be available in the box, the IF and CF and their supply, which would come from the AP and W. Two distinct attacks, and two distinct lines of supply are good, but there might be ways to improve these? I think an AP in the AMC position can sometimes be too static and easily marked out of the game - which only makes the lack of space issues worse.

Those observations might be way off the mark, but I would at least look at the thread I linked and remember when reading Pairs & Combos, and Lines & Diamonds, as summatsupeer said that they are guidelines (very good ones) to start from and that some things have changes since they were written.

[Finknottle]

edtheTactics. by The Egyptian., on Flickrguy. Thanks for your response and assistance, much appreciated. I have printed out the thread you suggest and will try to act upon it.

[Finknottle]

Sorry about the screenshot, I inadvertently deleted it from flickr.