Thoughts in relation to Hernes 4-4-2 Thread

[janesy20]

Hello,

Firstly let me explain that the thread I'm relating to is here (I hope that the OP doesn't mind me linking it) I didn't want to reply with my own tactics for fear of hijacking his thread. I found it fascinating as I have literally sat and written identical thesis on my own perception of the 4-4-2 in my notebook and having watched Leicester City in action this season. The increase in stats on the latest update for Vardy and Mahrez made this team particularly enticing.

The idea

From the games I have watched of Leicester recently they play what is essentially a 4-4-2 formation. When without the ball, implicating the 4-4-2 in the premier league is difficult on FM due to the ability of opposing players in the AMC position who are the main focal points of attack. This can lead players in a 4-4-2 formation being dragged to and forth and caught out of position. Counteracting this with a high line may be one solution but that can lead to issues with quick forwards in behind. With the ball, I consider Leicester to play quick tempo direct counter attacking passing utilizing the pace of Vardy and the creativity Mahrez, essentially I sometimes find the unselfishness of the other 9 players most rewarding for the fans as they do not attract the praise that these two in particular are getting. As a defence I consider them to be very basic and risk free as has been evidenced in my tactics shown below. This one area I'm particularly struggling on as I am shipping goals. I try to get Schmichael to distribute quickly to my full backs to initiate a counter attack. The midfielders I would like them to use their high workrate and stamina attributes to work tirelessly in defence and support any attacking moves. My two strikers Vardy and Barbosa one needs to drop deep and the other needs to work in behind, either are capable of doing both but Vardy is that little bit quicker in behind.

Side note - not really applicable but I wondered if anyone else could offer any thoughts

Their performance against Everton recently highlighted their training ground movement work. The ball is worked into the wide area at which point at least one if not both the strikers work their way to the far area of the pitch, the winger cutting inside is the trigger for forwards movements across to to the near post, this drags centre halves and the far side full back across and the cross is hit deep to Mahrez at the far post who has the option to shoot or cross for the other two forwards. Very simple yet effective - However, I find myself unable to really effectively tell my players to do this on FM, perhaps cut inside and hit early crosses could and has managed on a couple of occasions to attempt this. Instead I have tried to focus on Vardy's pace and work rate with good effect.

The setup

This is the tactic I have used for the first 10 games:

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Having sat and thought about the role of Mahrez in the team and having written the introduction to this thread this is what I'm proposing to change to:

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The Team instructions are listed here:

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I am aware that I don't have any of this 'movement between the lines attacking roles' that many people on here suggest, however the recent information in which someone mentioned that a counter tactic should have 0-1 attacking duties is playing on my mind here.

Results so far

The first results of the season have been like any other of my saves: inconsistent. It's obvious I'm shipping goals and Vardy bagging 16 in 11 has sort of managed to mask this.

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Help me

So there you are, Any pointers or tips on where defensively I'm going wrong would be great, unless I'm playing a top 6 side it's a counter strategy and changed to defensive against much higher rep teams. My most common goal conceded is down the right wing and I know that as a winger support and wing back support this could have been an issue which I have now addressed but it's hardly all out attack down that flank is it? Any help would be greatly appreciated and I'll try to provide further info where possible.

Thanks

[DavidPengilley]

Looking at tactic 1, and that you are finding that flank is being exposed, it shouldn't have been a surprise that was the case. If you look across the Defensive and Midfield lines, they were reasonably flat apart from these two and then you had a B2B Midfielder on the same side who would be roaming up-and-down leaving another hole on occasions. Who was going to cover them as they pressed higher up on the flanks? That original formation might have worked if you had a midfield based player coming across to cover them, particularly the winger, as he roamed forward.

Did the B2B Midfield engage much defensively on the right flank, or was he caught upfield/away from his position too often leading to the goals?

[herne79]

No problem at all and good luck .

I would love you give you some ideas, but apart from a basic understanding that Leicester play some sort of counter attacking system (having only seen their all too brief appearances on Match of the Day), I don't think I can be of much help.

If, on the other hand, you just want a more generalised view that may or may not actually relate to how Leicester play then I could chip in. For example:

- Try your 2 MCs on the DM strata instead. This may help provide some additional cover for your fullbacks, screen your central defence a little better and perhaps even suck in the opposition a little more to open space behind for a quick counter. You can always add a PI to get further forward to one of them if you think they aren't supporting the attack enough.

- The TIs that you use are what the team uses when they are not counter attacking (which will be most of the time). Do those TIs give you the style of play that you want when not on the counter?

- With Vardy set to AF, he will be staying quite advanced all of the time, which may reduce how often your team initiates a counter. I know Vardy is all about pace and movement (and so an AF seems a logical choice), but you would get that anyway when on a counter as everyone suddenly becomes very attacking, but during just normal runs of play you could perhaps consider a support role for him. Does he drop deep and help out defensively in real life? I think he might do, so perhaps a Defensive Forward?

Like I said, I don't know how Leicester play so I could be completely off base here. However this may help give you some pointers if you aren;t overly concerned with realism, and I'd also advise you to have a read through Cleon's Counter Attacking thread that is currently active on the forum .

[Vizzini]

I'll second herne79 here, a defender like Huth will have a hard time covering all that space in front of the defence. I've seen a couple of Leicester games this year, and have a couple of pointers for you, first of all they don't care about possession at all in terms of trying to retain the ball. When Leicester regain the ball they have one mission, get it up the pitch and fast! Their defenders are quite poor individually, something Ranieri has recognized by having the team drop deep and keeping their defensive shape, with their DM's sat in front of the defence, much like Tony Pulis cageball. In attack there is always one defensive forward to break up the oppossitions buildup-play. As such, Leicester play a careful game without the ball, and high-risk with it, so a more structured philosophy with a more attacking mentality but with drop much deeper and other shouts that define how your team defends space without the ball can be something to consider.

[janesy20]

Looking at tactic 1, and that you are finding that flank is being exposed, it shouldn't have been a surprise that was the case. If you look across the Defensive and Midfield lines, they were reasonably flat apart from these two and then you had a B2B Midfielder on the same side who would be roaming up-and-down leaving another hole on occasions. Who was going to cover them as they pressed higher up on the flanks? That original formation might have worked if you had a midfield based player coming across to cover them, particularly the winger, as he roamed forward.

Did the B2B Midfield engage much defensively on the right flank, or was he caught upfield/away from his position too often leading to the goals?

Thank you for your reply, I think when creating this thread I realized this (the beauty of creating threads like these it can help you spot your own mistakes!).

[janesy20]

No problem at all and good luck .

I would love you give you some ideas, but apart from a basic understanding that Leicester play some sort of counter attacking system (having only seen their all too brief appearances on Match of the Day), I don't think I can be of much help.

If, on the other hand, you just want a more generalised view that may or may not actually relate to how Leicester play then I could chip in. For example:

- Try your 2 MCs on the DM strata instead. This may help provide some additional cover for your fullbacks, screen your central defence a little better and perhaps even suck in the opposition a little more to open space behind for a quick counter. You can always add a PI to get further forward to one of them if you think they aren't supporting the attack enough.

- The TIs that you use are what the team uses when they are not counter attacking (which will be most of the time). Do those TIs give you the style of play that you want when not on the counter?

- With Vardy set to AF, he will be staying quite advanced all of the time, which may reduce how often your team initiates a counter. I know Vardy is all about pace and movement (and so an AF seems a logical choice), but you would get that anyway when on a counter as everyone suddenly becomes very attacking, but during just normal runs of play you could perhaps consider a support role for him. Does he drop deep and help out defensively in real life? I think he might do, so perhaps a Defensive Forward?

Like I said, I don't know how Leicester play so I could be completely off base here. However this may help give you some pointers if you aren;t overly concerned with realism, and I'd also advise you to have a read through Cleon's Counter Attacking thread that is currently active on the forum .

Thank you also for your reply: I am going to trial the CMs in the DMs position. I noticed AI Stoke City often have played this on FM15 and always felt that the gap between DMs and STCs would be too far - but I like what you say about sucking the opposition in a bit more.

I find it difficult to set up my team when not in possession of the ball - I would have thought deeper and narrow would be how any team sets up who are absorbing pressure, yet the AIs ability to overload the flanks and scores goals across all saves I have running alongside this one means I'm reluctant to set too many TIs based on defending.

I was hoping that Barbosa would have been the link between the midfield and attack, but I'm not seeing too much of that happening and both strikers seem merely to occupy the AI centre halves, I have swapped Vardy back to DFC to see that pans out. Would you recommend persevering with Barbosa as DLF support or change to attack?

[janesy20]

Here is my amended approach based on your considerations. My next game is against bournemouth one of only a few teams I'd consider myself strong favourites against so it might not be appropriate to trial with.

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[Fosse]

Do you want to play exactly like us?

Mahrez plays on the right and Albrighton on the left.

The roles in my opinion:

-----------Dlf-s*------AF-a

wm-s----bwm-d----rpm-s----wm-a

wb-s------cd--------cd-d-----fb-s

*this is the role that changes most in the side, Ulloa is more of a dlf-s whereas Okazaki is a df-d.

Mahrez would have PIs of sit narrower, dribble more, get further forward, shoot more

[herne79]

Any competitive match is appropriate .

If you are following my 442 thread, you'll realise I'm the last person to ask about having a deep dropping forward .

Good luck with any changes. Like I said above, I don't know how Leicester play, but I think getting a Leicester inspired system working is a good challenge. If you get stuck, refer back to Cleon's counter attacking thread.

[janesy20]

I decided to play Bournemouth with the formation anyway for 70mins. I conceded an own goal from a cross from that problematic right wing area again so you can imagine my frustration. Interestingly my DMC and supposed half star familiarity RPM received a 8.7 rating. I didn't like the interplay between my defence and midfield and two strikers one bit. I am proposing to change the DLF to a F9 to see if he will link better with the team.

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I am aware from the below screenshot of the total shots to shots on target ratio. I may try to combat this by reducing the tempo from much higher to higher. the other proposal could be to reduced the passing directness.

[/img]

[janesy20]

Do you want to play exactly like us?

Mahrez plays on the right and Albrighton on the left.

The roles in my opinion:

-----------Dlf-s*------AF-a

wm-s----bwm-d----rpm-s----wm-a

wb-s------cd--------cd-d-----fb-s

*this is the role that changes most in the side, Ulloa is more of a dlf-s whereas Okazaki is a df-d.

Mahrez would have PIs of sit narrower, dribble more, get further forward, shoot more

Thanks for this Fosse. I originally set out with Mahrez on the right and I'm aware IRL that he plays on the right. It was only because I noticed he was actually left footed and crossing seems to be more beneficial on this match engine that I swapped them over. Asides from that I don't think my current formation is that far different to the one you have set out.

[janesy20]

I decided to replay the Bournemouth game to check a few of those ideas (Not because I'm a cheat or hate losing!) swapping the DLF to a F9 reducing the tempo slightly and swapping Mahrez and Albrighton back over. The result?

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Mahrez scored the first after 17mins and by 33mins we were 4-0 ahead. I was much happier with the build up play and the service to my forwards. I was also impressed that although it looks as if Bournemouth had plenty of shots....I restricted those to outside the area which would have to have been worldie strikes to go in. I will try to post highlights of the 4 goals scored to see if I can see any counter attacking elements of Leicester IRL. Watch out for Inlers wonder strike!

[janesy20]

[video=youtube;wyrkJFjDNI4]

Unfortunately it doesn't show enough of the build up

[/img]

[herne79]

Nice result .

I know replaying matches is frowned upon, but quite honestly if you are still trying to learn much about how systems work and what the ME gets up to and you are comfortable with doing it then it's up to you. It's your game after all, play it as you want to.

Just be cautious in drawing too many conclusions from just one replayed match - it's entirely possible you could have replayed the match without any changes at all and still won. If it helps, go back into the match and review the highlights (or even the whole match), and see if you can tell if your players are playing as you might expect them to. Hit Pause and Rewind as well. Personally I learn more that way than reloading a match, but whatever is best for you.