4 wins out of 21 games with Blackburn, about to be sacked

[koimes]

Given that I will need to restart my save since I'm about to be sacked, I thought I'd try post here to find out what went wrong and how I can improve this tactic and actually survive with Blackburn, first season. It seems impossible right now. First time playing FM in 3 years and it is brutally difficult.

http://i.imgur.com/nciM4cj

My first problem is that I think I am lost with what style of football would be best for my team (Blackburn). Undoubtedly, a 4-5-1 with a DM and two wingers in the attacking midfield zone is the best fit for my players (4-1-2-2-1). My best player Jordan Rhodes is a slow advanced forward though. He needs a strike partner in that case, so I went with a 4-4-2 to have a Target Man next to him. This screws up my right winger though, Ben Marshall, since he is only competent in the MR position (he's a natural AMR). I can provide screenshots of my players if need be but it would really take a long time.

http://i.imgur.com/R98QuQa

The only thing I change readily is the mentality of the tactic. If the opposition is crossing readily, I set my mentality to attacking, to harrass the opponents before the ball gets to crossing areas as well as hassling the crossers themselves. I also do this if I notice the opposition rely on slow forwards. I get completely wrecked if the opposition start making fast passes in my own half, I have no idea of how to stop that.

If the opposition has a very defensive formation, I tend to set the formation to counter, to draw them out. This gives them alot of time on the ball and I never really see my team take the opportunities when we win the ball in our own half, the 'counter attacks' fizzle out on numerous occasions against withdrawn opponents.

I also change my BWM to a B2B if I notice he isn't winning tackles. I change my TM to a DF(D) if he can't win the ball or if he is outnumbered and I change my DLP(S) to DLP(D) if I need to draw out opposition.

It goes without saying we are very toothless in attack. It seems like the typical play is to work the ball up using the TM, he passes to the wingers, who just get overburdened by opposition wingers and fullbacks, Jordan Rhodes doesn't contribute enough because he's too slow with regards to through balls. There are nice little passes between the CM's and the target man, but it just ends up as a ball pinged to the wingers or Jordan which the opposition easily defends. My only other option is to set my FB's to run up the pitch or my DLP to a more adventurous role, but that leaves me incredibly open at the back.

95% of the goals I concede are primarily from fast paced crosses or very quick through balls in the Blackburn box, all brought about by counter attacks from the opposition, and thats with both full backs on support and a DLP, that or the opposition plays Arsenal football and starts passing the ball very quickly to either the wings or passing throughballs into the box. Cue my defenders running after the opposition like headless chickens. If I don't pressure them though, this leaves them time and space in my own half to do what they like, so I get very confused with what exactly to do.

Please help me out. I'd love to make this a longer thread and I will post screenshots or whatever additional info needed.

[Deego619]

I don't think the shape is your issue. 4-4-2 or a 4-5-1 will work. Jordan Rhodes may not be quick but he's sure good at finding space. Have him drop deep from a lone striker's role. Let him pop up in gaps and play it to midfield runners who'll join him in peppering the opposition goal. He won't get on the end of through balls, but there's a good chance that he'll end up on the end of a cross from the ball being played out wide.

Speaking of winger problems, watch them while they lose the ball. Did they try take on the full back and lose? Are you telling a poor dribbler to try take on a skilled defensive full back? Is his own full back not supporting him? Are the central options in space? Sometimes changing a winger to a wide midfielder role does the world of good, it focuses on him not dribbling and more on ball retention or penetrating balls, think David Beckham and less Ajern Robben.

Sounds like the goals you concede are a result of over committing your players forward and I'll take a guess as saying it doesn't happen as often in your 4-4-2 shape? The wingers being advanced is asking for trouble on the counter and I don't feel like your full backs would be good enough to handle the threat on their own. Drag your wide men back, stick one or two of them on a support duty. Keep your midfield unit solid and counters will be harder for the opposition. Personally I'm playing 4 support duties and a DM in my 4-1-4-1 and it's keeping the counters out.

Defenders running like headless chickens and not getting the ball? Have they the attributes to close the opposition down successfully? Namely Aggression, Bravery, Work Rate, Determination and Teamwork? If they don't, don't tell them to. You're just opening gaps at little to no profit. You need bite when closing down. Focus more on ball retention and pinning the opposition back so they don't get the ball, whilst remaining cautious.

I can't really see your photos (probably a problem my end, my internet is shocking atm) so that's all I can suggest at a glance, good luck mate

[koimes]

Thanks for the advice. I changed the photos to direct links to imgur, so you should just be able to click on them now.

I've been using a 4-4-2, that's why it's strange that I'm having such problems with counter attacks on the wings. But both my wingers are set to Attack, so this could be a problem. Should my wingers constantly be tracking back on opposing fullbacks because I don't think that's happening?

With regards to using more support duties, I look at how toothless my team are right now and I grow weary of even thinking of using more support duties, because I think that would exacerbate the penetration issue even more so, but I'll give it a go.

If the 4-1-4-1 you're talking about is similar to Cleon's counterattacking option then I'm highly doubtful that that will work with my defenders. I tried it in pre season and it was a nightmare to say the least, but maybe I should try it for a bit longer. While I was using it, I was just seeing the same issues I had in FM2015 when using counter attacking strategies, getting pinned back in my own half and waiting for the killer cross or through ball. It also seemed like my wingers were too slow to counter attack so my only method of penetration was slowly working the ball up the pitch from a goal kick which would result in 0% of goals.

Sorry to sound like a negative Nancy but I am one right now. If anyone has any thoughts I'd love to hear it

[Overmars]

Can you provide an indication of where your team's strengths and weaknesses lie in terms of player attributes? I like creating tactics with my own team's abilities in mind rather than going strictly based on opposition. I am not familiar enough with Blackburn's players to know what I would attempt in your situation.

If Rhodes is your best player but he is slow then your TM idea might work. I would prefer using a DLF(s) as a complementary forward or a playmaking AMC behind Rhodes. Using a TM makes everything so direct, which I tend to dislike (if only because I hate watching that style of play).

[koimes]

Okay I'll list them out

Left Full Back - Tommy Spurr, a jack of all trades and a master of none. Not fast, defending attributes are okay but his long throws are 19 so he is a threat with set pieces (haven't gotten a goal from long throws though). He has a PPM of preferring long passes, so regardless of the TM he can and will make unfavorable long passes. There is also Marcus Olssen, incredibly fast but abysmal defending attributes.

Center Backs - Grant Hanley, Matthew Kilgallon and Shane Duffy. Kilgallon is a bit more versatile, like a all round center back but Shane and Grant are highly aggressive brutes. Lots of yellow cards. Grant also has tries long range passes, great PPM for a CB with 8 for passing *sarcasm*

Right Back - Ryan Nyambe. Great prospect at 17 he's just getting better and better. Poor Crossing, but makes up for everything else.

Left Wing - Craig Conway. A wide Midfielder who cuts in often. Has PPM's to knock ball passed opponent and run with ball, but is pace and acceleration are 12 a piece. Makes me want to tear my hair out.

CM's - I've got a couple here, but I've got great Ball winning midfielders in Cory Evans, Hope Akpan and Jason Lowe. On the more creative side, there's Danny Guthrie, who I use as my Deep lying playmaker. He's actually really bad as a DLP because he has really bad defensive attributes, but I have no-one else to play as a holding midfielder. Danny isn't very quick either so I can't play him as a runner. Bit confused as to how to set up the central midfield.

Right Wing - Bad options here. As stated above, Ben Marshal should be AMR but I've had to move him down to ML and he doesn't do great as a competent ML. He is quite quick and runs with the ball often. Shoots at goal. Good crossing stats.

Strikers - Jordan Rhodes, slow but great finisher, if you can somehow get him in the box. He's quite tall and strong and good in the air but I wouldn't call him a Target man. His anticipation is very good so I picture him similar to a RVP style of player. How did United assist RVP? I can't quite remember, maybe I should look at how Fergie set up his last United team.

The secondary striker is a problem. The only relevant option is Fode Koita who is best played as a supporting Target man but nothing else. Quite fast and good dribbling, but terrible passing, decision, finishing and composure. His Teamwork is bad too, maybe I should reconsider him as a secondary striker. There is Chris Brown, who just got out of a 4 month injury, pretty much the same kind of player but is slower, much more of a team player though.

See I can't really play Koita as a DLF since he's a selfish player. Brown could be an option as a DLF but I worry about his pace and passing ability (10 passing and technique)

[koimes]

I just played a game against Bristol, reverting back to the 4-1-4-1 JDeeguain was talking about (I've had it as a back up tactic so the players have a fluid understanding of it). We drew 3-3, which is fine because they are 4th in the league, but why am I conceding 3 goals??

Here are the three goals, I can highlight what went wrong, and these are small samples of things the AI do that I have no idea of how to react.

http://i.imgur.com/THCTyQ5.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/qXQjdlY.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/W99ddcQ.jpg

Bristol pulled the same move off 3 times. I have more than enough players in the area, it's just a matter of passes being made in quick succession. If my players attack the passers, the ball is quickly passed before they can even get to the passer, if my players stand off, the goal happens anyways.

I'd actually like to use this thread to post screenshots such as these now that you guys know what my formation is like, and I can highlight goals conceded and hopefully learn why they happened.

The biggest problem that I have (I'm sure I can speak for others struggling with FM) is that when goals like these occur, there's no way to find out how to prevent them, well unless I post screenshots on this forum and ask you guys of course.

[DavidPengilley]

In those cases, I'd have set the wide defender on defend duty with less pressing or stand on feet instructions. Each time your wide player was caught in 'no man's land' of not being advanced enough to effectively challenge, nor back enough to intercept

[Overmars]

Keep in mind that once you get on a roll of bad form that things just get tougher. You may have the right tactics but the wrong morale.

[koimes]

Got sacked this morning, going to restart the save and hope for a miracle.

To summarize, I clearly am losing the plot when it comes to fast paced passes into a first time cross from the opposition wingers straight into the box. 2 goals conceded like this in my last game against Rotherham and I was playing a counter 4-1-4-1 with both wingers and full backs on support. Not sure what else to do to be honest, even if I do restart, the game still gives me no opportunity to learn and improve myself.

[King Costly]

Keep going, you'll crack it in the end. I too found the counter 4-1-4-1 didn't translate to success, we actually conceded quite a lot of goals with it. I think you've got to have really top class defenders (and even midfielders) for your league to pull it off.

I changed to a 4-1-2-2-1 which may just work for you. Rhodes up front on his own as a DLF (S)? He'd do well bringing others into play before getting into the box. I found having two wide men at AMR/AML instead of MR/ML meant we engaged opposition wingers higher up the pitch and reduced the amount of runs from opposing full-backs. If you stick them on support duties, they'll still get back. I have an IF on attack and on counter mentality he still puts in a decent shift.

You say you have good BWMs, maybe stick one at DM with a more static role (anchorman for example) then play one alongside Guthrie as a DLP? Maybe a CM (A) or BBM would be needed to support Rhodes, though.

I've found that less pressing can be very successful on this game. In old FMs, it always seemed high defensive lines and ultra pressing was always the way to success. The only players I ask to close down more in my system is the lone striker and the full-backs so they try and stop as many crosses as possible.

Let us know how you get on, this game can be extremely frustrating at times, especially with this ME, but it's also extremely rewarding.

[Kieran87]

Hi Koimes, I would like to hopefully wade in and have a gander at trying to help you here.

The post above mine is along the lines of what I would work on too.

Your wide men are isolated and on attack dutyand due to this are going to leave your fullbacks engaged vs their fullbacks and wingers, so bring them either in as a wide midfielder (s) or a ap(s) and see if it helps. Alternatively, place them in the AMR / AML areas with (s) duties. With Olsson at left back and those physicals I would tempted to play my stuff down the left and conway is a great foil for it too.

Tell you what, how about a shift up....

Go for a Fb(a) in olsson, and a Ap(s) or IF(s) of Conway. You have 3 good dm style players so you should really be getting a lot more possession than I believe you are currently and I think we can make it happen in a round about way. Try with a hb(s) or a dm(s/d) in the hole infront of your back 2 / 4, depending on how you want your midfield trio to go. Then infront of them a B2B(S) midfielders or ballwinning midfielder on BWM(s) as one of those industrious great tacklers your have. Make this your best passing-tackling midfielder in this role so they can keep the ball recycled with a clever pass rather than backwards etc. As the ap(s) and fb(a) should be able to bring him into the play. Your other cm (Guthrie), I would try on ap(s) or a roaming playmaker type role. He doesn't have the physicals, but sounds like he has good mental and passing attributes. Use them where they will hurt the opposition?. you are now more solid infront of the back 4 in theory so Guthrie can be allowed the time and space to roam and pick up the puppet strings so to speak.

Marshall on IF(s) or winger(s) on the other flank should still give you an outlet, although if you want goals from him, I'm not sure and maybe someone else could help you there? Rhodes up top on CF(A) or CF(S)/DLF(A) might bring him in more and with the playmaking of Guthrie should give you more half and clear cut chances too. I have always wanted to try a SS in this style tactic but never been clever enough to try, maybe you could give it a shot? alternatively Rhodes could do a fair, but not great F9 but it would not give him / you the goals from him that he should get imo.

This is how I would kind of lay it out below:

http://lineupbuilder.com/?sk=9m96

Alternatively, you could go with Spurr at Left Back and make your lineup very Striker orientated. With your "wingers" more like runners to bring in the Striker more, like so:

http://lineupbuilder.com/?sk=9m97

You could most probably even change the Full backs to (D) and it would play better defensively with them still getting forward a bit but not necessarily overlapping.

These are all just ideas and I have not put them in play practically as I am at work. I am just trying to help you brainstorm and give you some visual aid if that makes sense?

Good luck and please keep me informed / keep this post updated as I would like to see how you get on.

[CityAndColour]

Just looking at your original tactic, is there any reason you couldn't play Marshall in the AMR slot with a support duty? You had the DLP on his side of the pitch anyway so there is enough cover to push him forward into a more natural position while keeping the left side as is.

Just a though if you were struggling to create, as a tactic doesn't always have to be symmetrical.

[koimes]

Thanks for the help guys, you have all given really great advice. CityAndColour, I think you hit the nail on the head, I've always been scared of trying out asymmetric formations but it looks like I'm going to have to give it a try.

Marshall's most natural position is AML as an Inside forward, and Craig Conway's most natural position is as a defensive winger on the right, so it works out perfectly. I just have to make sure the other roles are accounted for, will post my revamped tactic soon and we can see how it evolves from there

[CityAndColour]

Yep, I had quite a bit of success with an AML (inside forward support) and a MR (winger attack). As long as you get the roles of the central mids and full backs right I can't see any issue with setting up like this - in fact I didn't see any huge difference offensively between my right winger playing MR and AMR.

[koimes]

Alright I've been thinking more about my new set up and what I'd like to see

How feasible is it to play a direct type of football with a high line and alot of closing down?

I'd really like to see my players to play more direct football, but I don't have the pace to play counterattacking football from our own half and my defenders definitely don't have the mentals to handle playing deep. I read on guidetofootballmanager.com that if I wanted to play direct football with a target man (I have a few) that it's better to play higher up the pitch so that the big TM is always in the box.

Is this correct? How would I set up the tactic with regards to mentality and fluidity? I worry about there not being enough chances created other than a winger/defender crossing the ball into the box. What other avenues of attack are there with this sort of setup? Does anyone have a real life example of a team that play like this?

[koimes]

Just thought I'd give an update with regards to this.

I had a look at Chelsea using a 4-3-3/4-5-1 during 2004-2006 and I thought it would fit my current team like a glove.

Some points to highlight that I noted during my research of that team (feel free to correct me if there are any Chelsea fans out there)

The wingers are very attack minded and are the first ones in the box. These are the main goalscorers. I set Marshall on the right as a winger(A) to create natural width and I set Conway as a IF(A) to move into channels and get in the box to receive crosses.

The full backs are also attack minded, but do not take their time when in the final third. As soon as the opportunity arrives they will cross, this is normally before they as they are in line with the penalty box. F(A) sound most appropriate here. Pace is key for these two roles, most importantly so that the full backs can get back fast enough if the opposition win the ball

Obviously an Anchor in the Makelele role.

For my midfield pair I decided to use a CM(s) and an AP(A). I was juggling between a BBM or a CM(s). I realized that I wanted this midfielder positioned just in between the Anchor and the AP(A), a BBM would be all over the place, so I think a CM(s) will be more reserved, but will offer a passing an recycling option. The AP(A) in this case will be given full reign to run, pass and shoot.

Striking options were between a TM(s) or a DLP(s). I chose the latter, unfortunately all players pass a bit too wildly to the TM and it's a shame, I'd really like SI to improve on this role in the upcoming versions. Drogba was a Target Man support not a deep lying forward imo.

Reading up on Mourinho during this time, he would always want to get the ball to the box as fast as possible (not gonna use 'pump ball into box', I think that shout is a nightmare). With regards to defending, he also mentioned that he attempts to win the ball back as fast as possible and not give the opposition the opportunity to structure into an attack.

I think this fits my team perfectly. I started FM 16 with Cleon's counter attacking tactic, but it didn't suit my players at all. What I wanted was fast, attacking football. With setting my main tactic to counter, I would need to soak up a considerable amount of pressure, something that my defenders were not good at at all. Blackburn have the highest team work, work rate and stamina in the league, so I thought it would be more beneficial to push higher.

What I did learn from that thread by Cleon was the fact that shouts should be used on a game by game basis, and I like that simplistic outlook. Pressing high up the pitch and fast paced football goes hand in hand with the attacking mentality so I came up with the following:

http://imgur.com/l3XVTKC

It's still early days but I won my first two friendlies against Shepton Mallet and Accrington Stanley 6-1 and 4-0 respectively. Both teams were given very few chances in front of goal, due to the fact that my wingers were pinning back their fullbacks providing the opposition forwards and midfielders with no support against the packed midfield the 4-3-3 provides.

At the moment I am very wary of the bigger clubs and that I'll get shredded at the back if I employ the same tactic, so I'm lacking a defensive version of this. Maybe I could try playing the same 4-1-4-1 Counter (the original tactic at the top of this thread) - I just don't know how to attack with that system. If a team prefer to push up higher and harass, how do you employ this strategy against big teams? Is it as simple as lowering mentality, or do you have to have a completely defensive approach like changing you tactics to a defensive 4-1-4-1 and hope for good counters?

[koimes]

Just wanted to type another post to show that it's not all doom and gloom for people who are struggling at this game.

After starting my save a month ago, since my last post, I have been chipping away at it in between work, and great news, I won the Championship in my first season with Blackburn! Keep trying even if you do get relegated at first - like I did.

http://i.imgur.com/sbt8Grb.jpg

It wasn't easy going all the way and I needed a hell of alot of luck to pull it off but I managed to win by a point. It seems that the Chelsea 4-3-3 did work like a glove with this team, even though I was nervous about the wingers not tracking back. I see the importance of creating a tactic that best suits your team at hand rather than forcing the issue. This 4-3-3 turned out to be exactly like all the attacking styles of play that have come out from Rashidi and Cleon in recent days. I was kinda using my own intuition about the style since I was near the end of my save when all those threads were released.

My main formation I used was exactly like this

http://imgur.com/l3XVTKC

(previously posted a month ago), I added the stay on feet shout, so I wasn't prone to heavy tackles high up the pitch. I also changed the striker role to DF(s) and then I changed the CM(s) to BBM(s) to encourage more runs from him. Sometimes I'd even give the player instruction move further forward with ball to the BBM to encourage him to run forward as much as possible. Maybe I could've used the CM(a) role instead but the BBM was working out fine whilst toggling that player instruction.

I'd like to point out some aspects that helped me and some aspects that I still need to learn about or aspects I have trouble understanding

As stated previously, clearing my head and researching a real life example (Chelsea in this instance) helped me alot. Cleon's first 15 minutes post also helped tremendously, I highly recommend reading it. Really helped me to grasp the concept of focusing on your own team instead of worrying about opposition. Yea I did have a few games where I made wrong calls, but these were few and far between once I learned to not fixate on the opposition and rather focus on my players doing the right things and moving into the right positions.

The goals I did concede weren't give-aways which I was happy about. I got caught often on the counter and it would be great to learn how to improve on this with an attacking style of play. My biggest issue with the tactic was the fact that 95% of my goals come from quick crosses into the box. The games I lost were either because of my forwards getting surrounded fast enough before the cross came in or because my wingers+fullback were marked properly. I'd love to learn more ways of creating chances with the same style when my team gets caught like that.

I'm also a bit worried about how this tactic will translate now in the Premier league and I'm uncertain if I can play the same style against the likes of the big Premier league clubs

[lewis999]

It sounds incredibly simple and straight forward but dragging your AMR and AML back to MR and ML in the Premier League will instantly make you concede less goals. You're going to get attacked and harassed, you need guys behind the ball. Don't worry if someones competent and not natural at a position. I play an AMC who doesn't even have a rating at CM and he's my best player average rating and performances wise at CM. It's all about the roles and duties you have and the attributes of the personnel in your philosophy.