Club reputation matters too much in player signing

[jujigatame]

Is it me, or when 2 clubs are competing for a player's signature, the "bigger" club almost always wins out?

Case in point, I'm managing Tottenham, trying to sign Niklas Sule from Hoffenheim. My bid is accepted, as is a bid from Real Madrid. He takes the Real Madrid offer, even though it is inferior in almost every conceivable way. My offer was almost 50% greater in base salary, a gigantic difference when you also consider Spain's higher tax rate. I offered him a key player role while Real only offered him a rotation position. The bonuses I offered were all comparable.

The same thing has happened to me at least 2 other times with clubs like Arsenal and Man City swooping in for the same player as me, but not actually making them a better offer. It's not realistic. No young player is going to go that strongly against his own financial interests.

[White Flag]

That all sounds 100% realistic to me, the bigger club almost always wins out. Most young players would jump at the chance to take a squad rotation offer from Barcelona. But it's not just down to club reputation, it is down to the managers reputation and the city's attraction too.

[Welshace]

You think it's unrealistic that a player picks Real over Spurs? ... that would be my first point to consider..

My second would be how on earth do you know what Real offered in terms of add ons and installments?

[King Costly]

It definitely is frustrating seeing players demand 20k from you and then accepting a deal for 5k a few days later from another club!

[ryan045]

It's frustrating but happens IRL with many players, just try to achieve as much with Spurs as you can to sign these sort of players

[Maw74]

You think it's unrealistic that a player picks Real over Spurs?

Yes totally, only a moron would.

Seriously though, this is a really poor example but then you will get some that will say players go where the money is.

[jujigatame]

That all sounds 100% realistic to me, the bigger club almost always wins out. Most young players would jump at the chance to take a squad rotation offer from Barcelona. But it's not just down to club reputation, it is down to the managers reputation and the city's attraction too.

The bigger club almost always wins out BECAUSE they offer higher wages. If Real were offering comparable wages and he chose them, I wouldn't have batted an eye. But when the guy is taking a 40-50% pay cut to play there it doesn't ring true. FM underestimates how much money talks in these situations. Look at all the high reputation players who signed for mid-table EPL clubs this year because of all the TV money flooding in.

[jujigatame]

My second would be how on earth do you know what Real offered in terms of add ons and installments?

I can see his contract info in the player screen, it lists his wages and bonuses and squad status.

[Welshace]

I can see his contract info in the player screen, it lists his wages and bonuses and squad status.

Doesn't list all of the add ons and installment information...

[jujigatame]

Doesn't list all of the add ons and installment information...

What doesn't it list? I see all the bonuses (loyalty, appearance, unused substitute, shutout, etc.) plus minimum release clause and everything else.

[themadsheep2001]

The bigger club almost always wins out BECAUSE they offer higher wages. If Real were offering comparable wages and he chose them, I wouldn't have batted an eye. But when the guy is taking a 40-50% pay cut to play there it doesn't ring true. FM underestimates how much money talks in these situations. Look at all the high reputation players who signed for mid-table EPL clubs this year because of all the TV money flooding in.

And because they are the bigger club in stature, offer the better chance of silverware, or a combination of all 3

There really isn't much in this for me. Arguably the biggest club in the world... or Spurs

[ryan045]

What doesn't it list? I see all the bonuses (loyalty, appearance, unused substitute, shutout, etc.) plus minimum release clause and everything else.

If fully scouted you should be able to see full contract of his loyalty etc like you said. Not sure what he's on about transfer installments are paid to clubs not the player. Should be able to see every detail if scouted.

[jujigatame]

And because they are the bigger club in stature, offer the better chance of silverware, or a combination of all 3

There really isn't much in this for me. Arguably the biggest club in the world... or Spurs

Again, I just think you're underestimating how much of that desire players have to play for a big club comes down to money. If Real Madrid suddenly announced they were in financial meltdown and could no longer pay more than 50k/wk in wages to any player, every world-class player on that club would be on the phone with their agents the next day.

[themadsheep2001]

Again, I just think you're underestimating how much of that desire players have to play for a big club comes down to money. If Real Madrid suddenly announced they were in financial meltdown and could no longer pay more than 50k/wk in wages to any player, every world-class player on that club would be on the phone with their agents the next day.

Except, they are not in financial meltdown. I'm not underestimating anything, you're focusing entirely on the money. He's got a choice between Madrid and Spurs. either one is a big financial step up on what he's currently being paid. One is a mega club, the other is you. It's barely a contest. If you think it's a bug, upload the save, but as it is, you'd be hard pressed to find many who will see much wrong with this.

He's a rotation player at Madrid. That's actually a really strong offer.

[jujigatame]

I don't think it's a bug, I think it's a misunderstanding of how players make their choices. I think 9/10 times, money talks. A small pay cut to get on a more successful club is one thing, a player leaving millions of pounds per year on the table is another. Very few players will do that.

[themadsheep2001]

I don't think it's a bug, I think it's a misunderstanding of how players make their choices. I think 9/10 times, money talks. A small pay cut to get on a more successful club is one thing, a player leaving millions of pounds per year on the table is another. Very few players will do that.

I can tell you now, having interviewed plenty of players, that's it not even remotely that clear cut.

In this case, there really is very little wrong.

[Cavenagh]

I don't think it's a bug, I think it's a misunderstanding of how players make their choices. I think 9/10 times, money talks. A small pay cut to get on a more successful club is one thing, a player leaving millions of pounds per year on the table is another. Very few players will do that.

So why not consider this 1/10 player for whom money didn't talk. That this is one of the very few?

[ryan045]

All comes down to ambition, many players have rejected huge offers from Qatar because they want to compete at the highest level/club possible. RM in this instance

[jujigatame]

All comes down to ambition, many players have rejected huge offers from Qatar because they want to compete at the highest level/club possible. RM in this instance

Agree this can happen, but playing in Qatar is a huge difference compared to playing in London.

[jujigatame]

So why not consider this 1/10 player for whom money didn't talk. That this is one of the very few?

Well my point was that I've never seen the player NOT go to the highest reputation club who wants him, regardless of contract offer.

[Cavenagh]

Well my point was that I've never seen the player NOT go to the highest reputation club who wants him, regardless of contract offer.

Apologies. Got my eyes crossed reading the thread.

[louissiscool]

Spurs or real madrid are we talking first season or have you won the league or something like that?

If it is first season i don't think you can be too aggrieved real madrid are the worlds 2nd biggest club and have some of the worlds top talents playing there and champions league football as well.

[jujigatame]

Spurs or real madrid are we talking first season or have you won the league or something like that?

If it is first season i don't think you can be too aggrieved real madrid are the worlds 2nd biggest club and have some of the worlds top talents playing there and champions league football as well.

3rd season, I'm in the Champions League.

[andrewsgn]

I agree with the OP. I understand there are some cases in which a player might not always choose the money but in the example he posted above, I can't see a player choosing to go to the bigger club for 50% lower wages. I think the issue is, in reality, the player would go back to Real Madrid and say "Tottenham is offering me X" and Real Madrid would beat the offer. I'm not sure this can be modeled in game without a system of back and forth negotiation with agents playing teams against each other.

[gmulv]

Does personal preference play a part in this game I wonder?

Just thinking about someone like Gerrard who in real life had the chance to move to both Chelsea and Madrid. He turned them both down even though both are bigger clubs at the time and were more than likely offering a lot of money?

He only wanted to play for his favoured club.

[samuelawachie]

This is one thing i think should personally be added to the game. When two or more clubs are vying to purchase a player, and you're negotiating with agents or the player himself, there's no way to know what kind of contract has been tabled by the other suitors until the player decides and you then go to check his new contract. The agents should say something like, I am currently in discussions with so so and so, (they already do this), and the total contract offered is about so so and so, then you go from there and try to either match it or go higher or lower.

I sometimes regret over-compensating for a players wages when fighting away other clubs in this way.

The last time this happened, i had to offer Benteke $300,000/week just to make sure i get him. There was no other way to know what the other clubs were offering as wages.

If we know what they offered as the transfer fee, then the agents could give us a hint as to what is being tabled by other competing clubs for the signature. Simple.

[yarko_gadget]

Personally, I like that I don't know what the other club is offering the player in terms of contract.

Because it adds to the hustle-and-bustle of the transfer market. If I knew what other clubs where offering, I'll be able to sign the players that I want almost 100% of the time.

It's a good thing that I can't. Missing out on one player can lead to me signing a different player who turns out to be a goal scoring machine.

Does anyone really want to sign every player that they want all of the time? Won't it take somthing away from the game?

[Freakiie]

Personally, I like that I don't know what the other club is offering the player in terms of contract.

Because it adds to the hustle-and-bustle of the transfer market. If I knew what other clubs where offering, I'll be able to sign the players that I want almost 100% of the time.

It's a good thing that I can't. Missing out on one player can lead to me signing a different player who turns out to be a goal scoring machine.

Does anyone really want to sign every player that they want all of the time? Won't it take somthing away from the game?

Doesn't the OPs example prove exactly the opposite? Offers far more wage, far more important squad status and the player still signs for another club. On top of that, even if you have a rough idea of the contract another club is offering, would you even want to equal that contract? Look at the OPs case again. As Real Madrid, would you go and say "Well Spurs are giving you key player status, so we'll do the same"? Because if I was managing RM in that position I definitely wouldn't.

[Jibby123]

.....Does anyone really want to sign every player that they want all of the time? Won't it take somthing away from the game?

Definitely agree with this. If anything the game is too easy in squad building/retaining players when the big boys play or don't in FM's case.

If it was real life it would be so difficult for the Dortmund's, Liverpool's and Spurs to keep Lewandowski, Suarez, Sterling, Bale's etc. That doesn't make for a fun save, but when it comes to competing in signing's then Real Madrid/PSG/Barcelona/Man City/Chelsea are going to pickle you.

Within 2-3 seasons I have 4-5 players in my team in League One in England who could quite easily play Championship and even hold their own in Premier League. It's not even taxing to get that, but more unrealistic it's more than easy to keep them happy. For every player you miss out on there's 10's out there who can replace them.

Human AI > Computer AI.

Fun or realism though? I want fun.

[yarko_gadget]

Doesn't the OPs example prove exactly the opposite? Offers far more wage, far more important squad status and the player still signs for another club. On top of that, even if you have a rough idea of the contract another club is offering, would you even want to equal that contract? Look at the OPs case again. As Real Madrid, would you go and say "Well Spurs are giving you key player status, so we'll do the same"? Because if I was managing RM in that position I definitely wouldn't.

I see what you mean. But, If I really wanted a certain player and I knew exactly what he was offered by a rival for his signature, I could pretty much make sure that I can entice him to my club. Whether that means I pay him 100% or 200% more than the rival club is neither here nor there. knowing what the rival club is offering will give me the information I need to pretty much make sure that I have his signature.

[macca72]

Fact is, if there's a player you really, desperately want and you can negotiate with him, 99% of the time if you really want to you can get them.

I'll only go in for the lottery of multiple contracts if it's a deal that I can live without, if they are a must have, there's no way I leave the negotiating screen without them agreeing to join.

[herne79]

Agree this can happen, but playing in Qatar is a huge difference compared to playing in London.

OP - It's unrealistic a player turns down Spurs for Real Madrid if Spurs offer more money.

Us - Not really.

Op - Yeh it is.

Us - Players irl turn down huge offers from Qatar to play for bigger clubs.

Op - Agree, but playing in Qatar is a huge difference compared to playing in London.

Us - And so is playing for Real Madrid compared to playing in London.

I'm doing this in a jokey manner, but do you see how you've gone full circle and are now contradicting your own OP?

[samuelawachie]

Personally, I like that I don't know what the other club is offering the player in terms of contract.

Because it adds to the hustle-and-bustle of the transfer market. If I knew what other clubs where offering, I'll be able to sign the players that I want almost 100% of the time.

It's a good thing that I can't. Missing out on one player can lead to me signing a different player who turns out to be a goal scoring machine.

Does anyone really want to sign every player that they want all of the time? Won't it take somthing away from the game?

Okay, i do agree that it would take something from the game knowing what is been offered by other clubs contract wise..

I stand corrected. Good point.

But it really was not nice having to be stuck with paying 300 grand / week. Especially as i didn't feel he deserved such, but i really just wanted him.

So yeah, that's it

[jujigatame]

Does personal preference play a part in this game I wonder?

Just thinking about someone like Gerrard who in real life had the chance to move to both Chelsea and Madrid. He turned them both down even though both are bigger clubs at the time and were more than likely offering a lot of money?

He only wanted to play for his favoured club.

Players do have preferred clubs but in this case Sule didn't have a preference for either of us.

[jujigatame]

Does anyone really want to sign every player that they want all of the time? Won't it take somthing away from the game?

No, I've missed out on plenty of players. It's annoying but part of the game. I just think it's more realistic if the decision-making is weighted more towards financials and less towards "reputation".

[jujigatame]

OP - It's unrealistic a player turns down Spurs for Real Madrid if Spurs offer more money.

Us - Not really.

Op - Yeh it is.

Us - Players irl turn down huge offers from Qatar to play for bigger clubs.

Op - Agree, but playing in Qatar is a huge difference compared to playing in London.

Us - And so is playing for Real Madrid compared to playing in London.

I'm doing this in a jokey manner, but do you see how you've gone full circle and are now contradicting your own OP?

Well first of all, some high reputation players in real life DO sign for Qatar and MLS and China. In FM this almost never happens because reputation is such a huge factor in decision-making. It's VERY rare to see a Gerrard/Pirlo/Drogba/Lampard sign for an MLS club in FM. In my save the biggest name to go to MLS in 3 seasons has been Geoff Cameron.

Second of all, the difference between the reputation of Real and Tottenham in my FM save was one-half of a star. For a Qatari club it'd probably be more like 2 full stars. Not to mention the purely cultural adjustment that would be required, which I'm not sure FM can account for.

[herne79]

Well first of all, some high reputation players in real life DO sign for Qatar and MLS and China. In FM this almost never happens because reputation is such a huge factor in decision-making. It's VERY rare to see a Gerrard/Pirlo/Drogba/Lampard sign for an MLS club in FM. In my save the biggest name to go to MLS in 3 seasons has been Geoff Cameron.

This is straying into how the AI makes transfers, which is a different kettle of fish. Take over LA Galaxy (for example) yourself and you can sign players such older players as Ronaldinho, Kaka and Adriano or such future stars as Andres Cubas and Emanuel Mammana.

Second of all, the difference between the reputation of Real and Tottenham in my FM save was one-half of a star. For a Qatari club it'd probably be more like 2 full stars. Not to mention the purely cultural adjustment that would be required, which I'm not sure FM can account for.

Aren't we dealing with the principle involved, rather than gradients of numerical (star) values? If it's the principle, then we're just going round in circles and you've already answered your own point .

Anyway, I'm off for some New Year cheer so Happy New Year everyone !!

[jujigatame]

This is straying into how the AI makes transfers, which is a different kettle of fish. Take over LA Galaxy (for example) yourself and you can sign players such older players as Ronaldinho, Kaka and Adriano or such future stars as Andres Cubas and Emanuel Mammana.

Aren't we dealing with the principle involved, rather than gradients of numerical (star) values? If it's the principle, then we're just going round in circles and you've already answered your own point .

Anyway, I'm off for some New Year cheer so Happy New Year everyone !!

My guess is that if you are an MLS club you may be able to sign players like that, but only as long as you're not competing for their signature with any clubs in Europe. If the player is wanted by a few different parties, I strongly doubt (from what I've seen) they will ever pick an MLS club over even a mid-level European club.

We are dealing with the principle, but there will always be levels. For me, 50-60% higher salary should be more than enough to overcome a slight-to-moderate reputation deficit. Really all I'm saying is that the priorities are unrealistically weighted.

[themadsheep2001]

My guess is that if you are an MLS club you may be able to sign players like that, but only as long as you're not competing for their signature with any clubs in Europe. If the player is wanted by a few different parties, I strongly doubt (from what I've seen) they will ever pick an MLS club over even a mid-level European club.

We are dealing with the principle, but there will always be levels. For me, 50-60% higher salary should be more than enough to overcome a slight-to-moderate reputation deficit. Really all I'm saying is that the priorities are unrealistically weighted.

If you think it's unrealistically weighted, then upload the save, so SI can have a look at any coding. But on the face of it, there really is very little wrong here.