Trying to create a possession based tactic using Cleon's 'The Art of Possession Football'

[steveshaw1983]

OK, so I'm back again, unfortunately needing advice again.

I recently had a good look through Cleon's 'The Art of Possession Football' thread which I found very useful. I decided to try and create a possession tactic of my own using some of the instructions he recommends for possession football but using my own roles etc. Initially I had some success with this winning 8 out of my first 9 league games with Liverpool. Things then took a turn for the worse and I went on a run of about 10 league games without a win. What I found when I was winning games is that I was dominating the play without scoring many goals and much of the play looked forced and made me feel like we could give the ball away at any moment.

The worrying thing for me is that the more familiar my team got with my tactic the worse they seemed to play which is very annoying and also tells me that something was not quite right with it.

I did compare some of the matches for when things were going OK to when they weren't, unfortunately I do not have screenshots of this. What I found is that most of, in fact nearly all of my play was down the right hand side and very little down the left. This is not good considering that one of my main goal threats plays on the left.

What I would like help with is turning my tactic from just being solely focused on possession into a tactic which has a nice balance between possession and attacking play. I'm aware this is basically me saying I want the perfect tactic. More importantly I want to understand why changes are necessary and what impact they will have.

I saved my game before the first game of the season so I am going to try and play a few games and will post some analysis of those games. Hopefully this will help you help me

The tactic i'm using is below.

I have quite a straightforward back 4 which one fullback on attack and one on support. The reason for this is I have used this setup before and always had good performances from my fullbacks (except this time as the left side struggled). I also looked at a thread some time ago which said this setup encourages movement between the lines and gives good passing options.

The midfield 3 I have on defend, support and attack, this is for the same reason as above.

I have a supporting winger on the right and I want him to link with my central midfielders and right fullback and provide assists with plenty of crosses.

My left inside forward has previously been very good for me and often the main goal scoring threat, not so much on this tactic though. The intention was for him to link up with my striker and score goals from cutting inside.

The striker is on support duty so that he sits deeper and links the play with midfield and does not get stranded. I have to admit this hasn't worked all that well.

My team instructions have been setup to encourage a short passing possession style of play.

I use control as I expect to be able to dominate most games. I have opted for a structured style as I don't want my team to go against our setup too often and I want to keep our shape.

The short passing and low tempo speaks for itself because as I've mentioned that is what I want/wanted to achieve. Play out of defence compliments this. Roam from position is something I picked up from Cleon's thread as this will encourage players to make sure there is a passing option available for a team mate. Retain possession is self explanatory. I have opted for balanced width as I don't want to leave us too open to counter attacking play. I have a normal defensive line as this is reasonably high on a control strategy anyway. Prevent short GK distribution and high closing down is because I aim to win the ball back asap to keep pressure on the opposition.

I do setup slightly different away from home. I would remove retain possession, drop closing down one notch and change to standard strategy. This is a slightly toned down version of above as I think teams are likely to be a bit more adventurous when they are the home team.

Hopefully you will be able to point me in the right direction and help me start enjoying my FM experience again.

Thanks

[steveshaw1983]

1st Premier League game

First, I cam up against newly promoted Leicester City at home. A game I would expect to win reasonably comfortably. It didn't turn out quite as I had hoped. Possession was up in the late 50's up until I got Lucas Romero sent off for a 2nd yellow card. You can see from the stats that the game was in fact very even and I had been managing Leicester I would be extremely happy with that result.

The next screenshot is the heatmap with overall average positions included. As you can see the shape of the team is very much as we setup. I suppose the one thing I would say to this would be that my team seems to be too deep with only 3 of my players in the opposition half. Could possibly consider a higher line but also sitting narrower to enable my wide men to have more options available to them. I am very much open to suggestions here as I am not very good at the analysing side of the game.

Correct me if i'm wrong but the next screenshot is quite worrying. This is the completed passes for my team during the game. The only place my team don't seem to do anything is in the opponents box.

Pass completion. This shows that I may have a few problems in certain positions.

GK - He is set to short distribution to centrebacks so for him tohave 48% pass completion is quite concerning.

LCB - Again, this is far too low.

AML - Again, this is far too low but I guess I already knew that position was a bit of an issue as mentioned in the OP.

I have done a screenshot of shots off target which at least shows they are not taking too many long shots. Probably just wearing the wrong boots I didn't include goals, shots which hit the woodwork, blocked and saved shots as they were OK.

[steveshaw1983]

2nd Premier League game

Next up was the daunting and typically difficult fixture of Man Utd away. They lined up with a 4231 and for the purpose of analysing my tactic I kept things exactly the same. As you can see I lost the game 2-1. I had slightly more possession but not really worth mentioning. They had more chances and deserved the win. My passing game took a hit also. The screenshots below once again show similar issues like in the 1st game so no doubt some changes are required.

[steveshaw1983]

I did play the 3rd game aswell but felt there was little point in post another 7 screenshots, purely because they look exactly the same as the first 2

My play is far too focused on the right hand side so I need to change something to very the play more. My defensive midfielder is sat too close to my central defenders and I think my team in general are too deep.

So, now to make some changes

[herne79]

Looking forward to some analysis .

A couple of initial thoughts in the mean time:

1) "The striker is on support duty so that he sits deeper and links the play with midfield and does not get stranded. I have to admit this hasn't worked all that well." You've also told him to prevent short GK distribution. Perhaps he's getting caught a little too high up field on occasion when you win back possession because of this?

2) "Play out of defence compliments this." Not necessarily. With a Control mentality, your defensive players are looking for short passes by default. Play out of Defence will tend to make them play even shorter. This can be fine, but there can also be a flip side. For example, what if a near by passing option is marked? The defender may just hoof the ball clear rather than to someone closer who is in space because he's only looking really close by at the marked player. Further, your fullbacks may also have an issue because you are playing with players at AML/R. If they are too far away, the fullbacks may not see them for the pass because you may be limiting their vision with this TI.

Of course these both may be nothing more than red herrings, and I've jumped the gun. Might be worth having a little look though.

[steveshaw1983]

Looking forward to some analysis .

A couple of initial thoughts in the mean time:

1) "The striker is on support duty so that he sits deeper and links the play with midfield and does not get stranded. I have to admit this hasn't worked all that well." You've also told him to prevent short GK distribution. Perhaps he's getting caught a little too high up field on occasion when you win back possession because of this?

2) "Play out of defence compliments this." Not necessarily. With a Control mentality, your defensive players are looking for short passes by default. Play out of Defence will tend to make them play even shorter. This can be fine, but there can also be a flip side. For example, what if a near by passing option is marked? The defender may just hoof the ball clear rather than to someone closer who is in space because he's only looking really close by at the marked player. Further, your fullbacks may also have an issue because you are playing with players at AML/R. If they are too far away, the fullbacks may not see them for the pass because you may be limiting their vision with this TI.

Of course these both may be nothing more than red herrings, and I've jumped the gun. Might be worth having a little look though.

First bit of analysis is there, bearing in mind i'm not great at this side of the game. Probably why I have so many issues with tactics :-)

1) I wouldn't have thought that this would have too much of an impact (i could be completely wrong). The striker would try to cut off the goalkeepers short passing option which would be when they are in possession of the ball. The ideal scenario would be that the goalkeeper would then kick it long, which would give my striker time to get back in position. I think my problems with the strikers involvement is more an issue when i'm in possession.

2) I have seen, much to my disgust, my defenders kick the ball long when there is a shorter pass available. This is with the play out of defence shout on. Would it not get worse if I were to remove it?

[herne79]

First bit of analysis is there, bearing in mind i'm not great at this side of the game. Probably why I have so many issues with tactics :-)

1) I wouldn't have thought that this would have too much of an impact (i could be completely wrong). The striker would try to cut off the goalkeepers short passing option which would be when they are in possession of the ball. The ideal scenario would be that the goalkeeper would then kick it long, which would give my striker time to get back in position. I think my problems with the strikers involvement is more an issue when i'm in possession.

2) I have seen, much to my disgust, my defenders kick the ball long when there is a shorter pass available. This is with the play out of defence shout on. Would it not get worse if I were to remove it?

From your analysis, the first thing that sticks out to me is 16 shots with just 6 on target. I know you have posted your passes (with not many in the box), can you also post your shots? Are they good chances from inside the box? Or do you have too many long shots? You could even click on each shot and watch it played back to give you even more of an idea.

I'd also suggest that 56% possession is a little low if you are aiming for a possession based tactic. Have a look at individual players - who has a low pass completion rate? Why would they?

In terms of playing out of defence, and defenders kicking long when they have a short option, can you post screen shots of this happening?

Also, do you use any PIs?

And finally, if you get really stuck, you could post a pkm of the match.

[steveshaw1983]

From your analysis, the first thing that sticks out to me is 16 shots with just 6 on target. I know you have posted your passes (with not many in the box), can you also post your shots? Are they good chances from inside the box? Or do you have too many long shots? You could even click on each shot and watch it played back to give you even more of an idea.

I'd also suggest that 56% possession is a little low if you are aiming for a possession based tactic. Have a look at individual players - who has a low pass completion rate? Why would they?

In terms of playing out of defence, and defenders kicking long when they have a short option, can you post screen shots of this happening?

Also, do you use any PIs?

And finally, if you get really stuck, you could post a pkm of the match.

I have updated the first analysis Herne.

The shots weren't too bad, there were a few outside the box but not an amount I am particularly uncomfortable with. There were more bad shots than long shots.

The possession was around 59% until I went down to 10 men but even with a higher amount of possession the stats don't suggest I was dominant. If anything we had an equal threat but I held the ball a bit more.

I don't have any examples of this, just what I noticed at some point. I will try posting from my next game. I don't use any PI's apart from the GK short distribution.

I think the pass completion % I have posted below tells me quite alot though in terms of the player roles. Would you agree?

[herne79]

In terms of your shots I don't know? I can only see 6 on your screen shot, where are the other 10?

Pass completion %, your GK should be easily fixed with a roll it out instruction. Sakho will be a little more tricky, you need to try to suss out why he's hoofing it. The IF has default PIs for more risky passes and dribble more, so as long as he has passing options his pass rate should increase. Keep an eye on him next match, see what he's up to and where his support / passing options are.

[steveshaw1983]

In terms of your shots I don't know? I can only see 6 on your screen shot, where are the other 10?

Pass completion %, your GK should be easily fixed with a roll it out instruction. Sakho will be a little more tricky, you need to try to suss out why he's hoofing it. The IF has default PIs for more risky passes and dribble more, so as long as he has passing options his pass rate should increase. Keep an eye on him next match, see what he's up to and where his support / passing options are.

Sorry Herne I stripped out the other 10 but I did have a look at them and there wasn't a large amount of long shots. More poor efforts than long.

I'm going to make some changes to the system and see if things improve at all. I will post the changes I make

[steveshaw1983]

OK, so I have made some changes as you can see below. My main aim being to push my team higher up the pitch and also encourage more play down the left hand side. I have just played West Ham at home and although I only won 1-0 it was quite a dominant performance. You can see from the heat map the area of play has changed quite a lot so I am going to try this for a few more games. Please keep the feedback coming though as I definitely need help

[steveshaw1983]

Ok so I was hoping that I would have some success with the new setup. Hasn't turned out that way and in desperate need of some help. I have posted my setup below and you can see how things have gone so far.

[steveshaw1983]

Any ideas what I can do to improve?

[herne79]

Without seeing exactly how you are losing possession or conceding goals, it's difficult to do anything more than generalise.

A Control mentality is aggressive. It tells your team to be aggressive in defence (high def line, more closing down and so on) and to be more direct and attack minded in possession. More than that though, it also changes all of your individual player's mentalities to be more attack minded.

On top of this, you layer in some TIs that add to this aggression (more losing down + slightly higher def line), although you do temper it a little by using Retain Possession and Lower Tempo. But then you add to that mix 3 players with an attack duty, plus a very aggressive BWM in the DM position.

Overall, it's an aggressive set up which could leave space for opponents to exploit - as you are finding out.

Now, you may think that what you have done doesn't seem to be a million miles away from Cleon's original. However, even things you may consider to be just small changes will actually alter how the whole system works.

[RTHerringbone]

In addition to herne79's points, I'd suggest that your Duty allocation on the right hand side is a bit too open. Firmino and Milner will be very advanced when attacks break down. The RPM will also advance quite high so the BWM is covering so much space as he has the middle, the right and even the left when the WB (A) has bombed forward to cover.

[steveshaw1983]

I have since toned this down a little and results have improved somewhat. For how long I'm not sure, we will see.

The difficulty for me is the game analysing which I mentioned yesterday. Not really one of my strongest points. What kind of things should I be looking out for?

[herne79]

My advice would be to stop playing new matches for now.

Go back to matches you have already played, and watch them in full match mode - not highlights - for at least the first 15 or 20 mins. Pick a camera angle you are comfortable with and then start off by watching what just your players are up to.

If it helps, ctrl+click your players so you have their names visible as well. Use the pause and rewind buttons if you need to.

Are your players playing how you hope they will? For example, are your centre mids tracking back enough (and fast enough) to help out in defence? When in possession, do your players have passing options? Does your DLF drop deep enough? Are your defenders positioned well to pick up opponents?

Just watch one or two players at a time if you like, whatever you find easiest.

[steveshaw1983]

Cheers Herne, will give it a go

[Midnight Rob]

Any ideas what I can do to improve?

Do you want possession or results? Similar dilemma to Van Gaal in some ways...and you are actually set up a bit Utd like.

Your play is slow and predictable, you will rarely switch play or threaten with pace. Wide forwards come inside and crowd the centre. Your centre forward has a no.10 role and instead of playing on the last man looking for through balls or creating space he'll stumble around in the same areas outside the box with the wide forwards and potentially with the CMA occasionally congesting the same area. To make matters worse FM16 - despite what others will say to the contrary - is wing play biased. You still concede frequently from crosses but equally it's a good source of goals if you take advantage or even just mix it up a bit.

I'm afraid you may need to compromise either yours or Cleon's ideals if you want more success. If I were the opposing manager - let alone the AI - you could shut down your attack all too easily and that's what is happening.

[fidelitywars]

To make matters worse FM16 - despite what others will say to the contrary - is wing play biased. You still concede frequently from crosses but equally it's a good source of goals if you take advantage or even just mix it up a bit.

This is true, unfortunately isn't it? Those intent on a narrow passing game seemingly have to compromise or at least temper their ideals, otherwise maddening frustration is all but inevitable. That's not to say that the game is unplayable but wing play, in my experience, appears to be far more effective than any other attacking approach and my full-backs have been easily as productive in terms of chance creation/assists as any central playmaker despite my tactics being tailored against crosses/wide-play as much as possible.

[RTHerringbone]

This is true, unfortunately isn't it? Those intent on a narrow passing game seemingly have to compromise or at least temper their ideals, otherwise maddening frustration is all but inevitable. That's not to say that the game is unplayable but wing play, in my experience, appears to be far more effective than any other attacking approach and my full-backs have been easily as productive in terms of chance creation/assists as any central playmaker despite my tactics being tailored against crosses/wide-play as much as possible.

I see a lot of this stated both in here, in the General Discussion forum and on other sites / social media. I don't really have the same experience, either in terms of goals for or against. At the moment I've been on a save with a powerful Spurs side, using 4-3-3 which you'd expect to be a wide-play oriented system. In my last 50 matches, 13 of my 76 goals scored are from crosses (conceding 6 of my 20 from crosses in the same period). SI have stated that ~40% of goals in real life are from crosses, so my experiences have seen just 17% of my goals from that source, and 30% of my goals conceded from out wide. Overall, games involving my side have 20% of goals stemming from crosses.

I'm not dismissing the issue, as it seems people are genuinely perplexed by it, but my system is not trying to avoid conceding from that source, and whilst my style of play does tend to focus on quality rather than quantity, I'm not directly trying to suppress the number of crosses we create.

[25251325zz]

The reason why your team play mostly on the left is because of inside forward was too advance then your BBM have no-one to play with him on that side. Try to switch him to "support" role and see whether it improve :-?

[fidelitywars]

I see a lot of this stated both in here, in the General Discussion forum and on other sites / social media. I don't really have the same experience, either in terms of goals for or against. At the moment I've been on a save with a powerful Spurs side, using 4-3-3 which you'd expect to be a wide-play oriented system. In my last 50 matches, 13 of my 76 goals scored are from crosses (conceding 6 of my 20 from crosses in the same period). SI have stated that ~40% of goals in real life are from crosses, so my experiences have seen just 17% of my goals from that source, and 30% of my goals conceded from out wide. Overall, games involving my side have 20% of goals stemming from crosses.

I'm not dismissing the issue, as it seems people are genuinely perplexed by it, but my system is not trying to avoid conceding from that source, and whilst my style of play does tend to focus on quality rather than quantity, I'm not directly trying to suppress the number of crosses we create.

I think there are a couple of issues here. Firstly, I understand that the Mods here and perhaps a few of the more tactically-savvy posters are a little perplexed by complaints about wing-play as I think that generally, they aren't as focused on playing in 1 specific, dogmatic way that many users are. Presumably, those interested in understanding the mechanics of the game in-depth will employ multiple tactics, offering a variety of nuances and approaches whilst perhaps being a shade more pragmatic and focusing on building depth and efficiency....whereas a lot of users just want to build a squad of super-talented wonderkids and play like Guardiola's Barcelona (ie dominate possession, create reams of chances with short passing and winning games against most opposition at a canter). As such, when playing like a Martin O'Neill side seems more readily rewarded, people get (IMO understandably) frustrated as this isn't really the vision of footballing Utopia most hold and indeed, would be viewed by many as a prosaic and pretty anachronistic style (despite a (lone?) eccentric voice on these boards explaining a desire to replicate MO'N's Villa!).

Despite wanting to understand how the game works, I fall largely into the latter category and as such, am not interested in tailoring an approach towards what works most effectively in-game. In my experience, switching wide players whose stats suggest they would make excellent inside forwards, even playmakers into wingers sees their ratings/productivity soar and my team's goal return increase...but this brings me no real enjoyment as it's not what I bought the game for. I appreciate that some will see this as a daft, quixotic and self-defeating mentality, yet it's 1 that I feel isn't particularly uncommon from speaking with my mates/reading online forums. I do feel that complaints of this nature can be read as people railing against the difficulty of the game but I feel that's a simplistic view - the issue isn't one of success but 1 of style and a feeling that certain types of (arguably more difficult) play aren't being sufficiently/evenly rewarded.

However, for me your response also raises another issue and 1 which, for me, is a far bigger bugbear and would largely mitigate all of the above - 76 goals in 50 games for 'powerful' Spurs side seems alarmingly low. Admittedly, the 20 conceded may indicate that you've opted for a pretty conservative approach but still, it does seem to hint at the profligate finishing which is plaguing my saves. I know i've rallied against the potency of crossing but my sides are more than capable of some fluent approach play and measured through-balls but even so, many of my goals are messy, scrappy affairs from rebounds and penalty area pinball as the initial finish, typically from very good players, is so frequently poor and goalkeepers aren't having to play particularly well to rack-up quite ridiculous numbers of saves.

Is this something that you too are seeing or are your numbers the result of your approach and to be expected?

[RTHerringbone]

Is this something that you too are seeing or are your numbers the result of your approach and to be expected?

I've always been a very lower scorer in FM, which is an indication of my generally cautious approach. This save is especially meagre in terms of return so far, but do remember that in real life, the current goals for per game for the "top" clubs is below 2, so whilst me operating at 1.5 games per IS low, it isn't wildly low and as you point out, my goals conceded are VERY low (compare to the rough average of 1 conceded per game for "top" sides in the PL). My Net goal difference ends up being superior to real life as a result. Either way - that's just my save. I'm pretty confident that my change of approach for the new season (based on a whim, rather than some sort of tactical savvy!) will push me towards and beyond a 2 goals a game average - and I expect my goals conceded to increase as a result.

[fidelitywars]

Cool - I assumed that those returns were a consequence of a more conservative approach. Still convinced that finishing isn't great on this FM, mind...

do remember that in real life, the current goals for per game for the "top" clubs is below 2, so whilst me operating at 1.5 games per IS low, it isn't wildly low and as you point out

True but I think this has only limited relevance. Presumably you mean the 'top' PL teams but they're all in varying degrees of crisis, each with obvious and significant flaws. As I hinted at above, most FM players have little intention of playing like Chelsea or Man City; it's Bayern or Barcelona who are the benchmarks and both of those clubs' average goals scored are notably higher - this is the aim, both the numbers and the style and this is what doesn't seem to be achievable.

Anyway, although your experiences and expectations are different from my own, I appreciate that you've taken the time to reply. Thanks!