Tuchel's Dortmund: Possession with purpose

[Lobaeux4]

Like a lot of of people, I find the Bundesliga fascinating. The teams, the atmosphere, the matches, it offers a great counterpoint to the Premier League. Here in the US, we get every Bundesliga match, so my interest has really piqued this year. Of all the teams in the Bundesliga, the one I find most fascinating is Borussia Dortmund. Great atmosphere, huge crowds, great history and part of the biggest derby in Germany. I've started a save with Dortmund, but abandoned it after the first season to change things up a bit. I restarted with the intention of replicating Dortmund's 2015-2016 season, or as close as I can get to it within the limitations of FM16. First time working on a tactic.

For the start of 2015, Dortmund appointed the former Mainz trainer, Thomas Tuchel to replace the departed Jurgen Klopp. My aim this year is to replicate Tuchel's tactics, flaws and all, in order to take Dortmund to the top of the Bundesliga.

So who is Thomas Tuchel? I won't go into too much, but if you're interested, here's a bit of history on him. http://www.just-football.com/2015/04/thomas-tuchel-borussia-dortmund-klopp-replacement-exciting-young-manager/

Last year, Dortmund floundered under Jurgen Klopp, they looked tired, buckling under the stresses of Gugenpressing. This year, Dortmund is flourishing, the majority of the credit coming down to Tuchel's tactics.

In a nutshell, Tuchel believes in juego de posicion, but with a German flair. So what does this mean? Think Guardiola's Barcelona, but without the “tiki-taka” element. A heavy emphasis on possession, but possession with purpose, the use of a system enhanced by individual talent, overloading positions on the pitch and the ability, nay the recognition to change tactics, but not philosophy to fit the opponent.

I am not some sort of tactical guru like Cleon, rtherringbone or some of the other mods here, and this tactic is ever changing, so if there's improvements to be made, by all means, please advise. That being said, it's a replication of Thomas Tuchel's tactics, not an attempt to make a perfect tactic. Warts and all, but if others see things, or interpret things differently (or more accurately) than I, please pipe in.

The first thing everyone concerns themselves with is shape, formation and how the team sets itself up. I understand this shape to be how the team defends, not so much how it attacks. The way I've set the formation is based on how I interpret how they defend. In the style of Tuchel, the team tends to defend in two banks of varying numbers. The attackers tend to press high up the pitch, constantly harrying the midfield and backline of the opposition. The defenders tend to keep everything in front of them, electing to not allow attackers behind them. This approach tends to lead itself very nicely to recovering the ball quickly and transitioning back to attack, but leaves a pretty big space for teams to operate between the two defensive lines.

[Lobaeux4]

The main formation I've set up is established like this:

The odd shape and asymmetric look of it is my attempt to get the team to overload a certain section of the pitch. I originally tried to do this using Team Instructions, but decided to let the individual players attempt this. Dortmund tends to overload one side of the pitch, more accurately the left interior corridor. This does two things, puts pressure on the opposition by outnumbering them, always allowing an “escape” route to pass out of, and allows for players to shift play to the opposite side of the pitch where the opposition isn't prepared to defend. I've purposely positioned the AM to favor the left side of the pitch to reflect this.

Mentality seemed to be straight forward for me, until I started doing some reading on Tuchel's early coaching experiences. After watching Dortmund this season, I've settled on a Control mentality. I think this best represents their attacking style, without opening the team up to a brutal counterattack. Standard tended to be a little static, and with Counter, I never seemed to get the attacking movement that I've seen Dortmund accomplish.

Mentality = Control

Team shape was another area that seemed straightforward to me, until I started reading more on this forumsand on other tactical interpretations of Tuchel's style. I immediately thought Fluid, then I started reading how Tuchel trains his players to know their positions on the field, how they are responsible for their “area”. I changed my mind to Structured, I thought this would allow the overall team shape to hold, yet I could induce individual changes or movements with TIs. However, after reading The Hand of God's excellent thread on Important FM16 Tactical Changes, I changed back to Fluid to get more of a compact shape as the attacking shape tends to be a little more compact. Team shape is one area I think I am going to have to continuously tinker with.

[Lobaeux4]

Team Shape = Fluid

Team instructions were initially quite an easy thing to set up. I went crazy, acting like a madman, continuously yelling out instructions to my team to follow. Okay, they were actually set up before the team takes the field, but I went overboard with it. I originally set the tempo to Higher, width Balanced, Defensive Line Slightly Higher, Use Offside trap, Closing Down More, Use Tighter Marking, Tacking Stay On Feet, Exploit Left Flank, Play Out Of Defense, Pass Into Space, Shorter Passing, Retain Possession, Be More Expressive, Look For Overlap, Whipped Crosses, Dribble Less and Roam From Positions. Whew!!!! With those instructions, I'm sure the team would've just stopped playing and stood there on the pitch shaking their heads at me. I wanted the team to play a certain way (obviously), and I wanted it now! I tried to take the easy way out.

Thankfully, cooler heads prevailed and I looked a little more critically at what I wanted the team to do. I tried to keep Team Instructions to a minimum and rely on either Individual Player Instructions or on PPMs to get the desired effect.

[Lobaeux4]

How am I going to handle individual player instructions? The way I look at how Tuchel is going to evolve in the job at Dortmund is going to be based on the belief that Dortmund's best players will eventually get pinched by other clubs. Even though Dortmund is one of the giants of European Football, it's relative in the case of Dortmund. They just won't be able to compete wage-wise with Barcelona, Real Madrid, Manchester City and even Bayern. We've seen this throughout the recent history of Dortmund and I'm figuring that Tuchel will develop a system rather than rely on individual brilliance. Where am I going with this? I'm going to try to do the same, yet I'll try to mould the players through training and PPMs rather than through Team Instructions. Jury's out on whether Tuchel or I will be able to do this.

In order to explain Individual Player Instructions, I'll look at the normal starting lineup for Tuchel and relate how I plan on setting those players up. For a complete look at Dortmund's lineup and team, take a look at the Good Team and Player forum and Valhalla's excellent FM16 post on Dortmund.

I'll go through each player individually.

GK – Roman Burki. A serviceable goalkeeper, not spectacular but his speed coming off the line is noted in my reports. I have him in the role of Goalkeeper, with the instruction to distribute the ball to my BPD, Mats Hummels.

GK – Goalkeeper, Defend, Distribute to specific teammate.

WBL – Marcel Schmelzer. An older fullback, still with decent stats and having a great season so far IRL, I'm using him to provide width on the left. I am asking a lot of my WBL, I want him to support the attack high up the pitch, yet maintain the stamina to assist the defense. He needs to be good on the ball, competent in his passing with the pace to push back and worry the opposition on their right flank. My WBL will be trained as a Complete Wing Back, with the ability to pass.

WBL – Wing Back, Support, Shoot Less Often, Stay Wider, Get Further Forward

DCL - Mats Hummels. An excellent BPD, wanted by the major European Clubs. The D(CL) is the main conduit to begin the attack from the back. I want him to receive the ball from the GK and begin moving the ball upfield. His passing completion needs to be high, as it is in real life. The D(CL) will initiate the attack, usually relaying the ball to my ball playing holding midfielder. I'm training him as a BPD, with a focus on dribbling and a preferred move of Gets Forward Whenever Possible. My issue with Hummels in particular, although he's great at this role, his pace is fairly pedestrian. I'm finding he's out of position quite a bit. I'm not enamored with the More Risky Passes instruction that is active for the BPD role, but I don't want the Dribble Less instruction either. I figure with Shorter Passing, that my limit his Risky Passes.

DCL – Ball Playing Defender, Stopper, Shoot Less Often, Pass It Shorter, Close Down Much Less, More Risky Passes.

DCR – Sokratis Papastathopoulos. A good defender with great speed, tackling and marking attributes. My DCR needs to be the rock of the defense, he stays back and should always be the last man. If he gets dragged out of position, he's got the speed to recover quickly. The role I've got assigned seems to be a waste for a defender with such great speed, but it's actually working out nicely. I don't want my DCR to handle the ball much, he needs to get the ball to the DCL or my Playmaking Midfielder. Training is just as a Central Defender, nothing special here, but in the future, I'll make sure new recruits have solid mentals, solid tackling/marking and speed.

DCR – Central Defender, Cover, Close Down Less, Hold Position, Pass It Shorter, Shoot Less Often, Dribble Less, Fewer Risky Passes.

DMCL – Julian Weigl. A revelation IRL in the Bundesliga. He's keeping Sven Bender out of the lineup and has been one of the reasons Dortmund is enjoying success. I have this position set as a Half Back Defend. The Half Back I think has been much maligned on FM, but it's working great in this setup. The left holding midfielder in Tuchel's scheme tends to be the rock, the protector of the backline. In fact, the two Central Defenders tend to push out a bit at the sides to cover the fullbacks. Using the Half Back role, this is doing exactly that. I'm not looking for the DMCL to get involved in the attack, I want him covering the defense. I've got him training as a Half Back with Stays Back At All Times being learned. I'll look at other PPMs to use for him as well.

DMCL – Half Back, Defend, Pass It Shorter, Fewer Risky Passes, Dribble Less, Hold Position.

DMCR – Ilkay Gundogan. One of the stars of Dortmund, his resurgence and availability are one of the keys to Dortmund's success this year. Tuchel uses him to be the link between the defense (Hummels) and the attack. He is acting like a box to box midfielder and playmaker. For the match engine, I need the defense to look to get the ball to him, using him as a conduit for getting the ball out of the back. One huge difference between last year's Dortmund and this year's Dortmund is the lack of the long ball play. I think this is down to Gundogan. I've got him training as a Roaming Playmaker, with a focus on dribbling and Moves Into Channels. Sounds odd, but Gundogan tends to dribble quite a bit and move around quite a bit offering his teammates an outlet. Simulating his movement is tough, it's still not working out great, but right now it seems as close as I can get it. The Regista role allows the Dribble More and Get Further Forward instructions without restricting the Shoot Less Often instruction. I'm leaving the shooting up to Gundogan himself.

DMCR – Regista, Support, Dribble More, Close Down More, Get Further Forward, Roam From Position.

AML – Henrikh Mkhitaryan. Another star that has been burning brighter under Tuchel's training. His goals AND assists have been up greatly, he's definitely a fan favorite. In Tuchel's scheme, the left midfielder plays inside the left inner corridor, running at the defense, accepting support from the left fullback and setting up Reus or Aubameyang for the goal, all the while open to a shot himself. In order to prevent getting pressed on the left against the side, he tends to play a little more narrow, but able to exploit the space towards the outside or the inside. The left and right side of the attack will also switch positions and tend to draw the defenders out of position as well. This has been a little harder to replicate, as using the instruction Swap Position doesn't always return the players to their original position. Maybe I am impatient, I tend to activate this instruction during the match. In classic Dortmund form, he presses high up the pitch as well, looking to harry the opposition, win the ball back quickly and resume the attack. I have the AML set with training of Inside Forward with focus on Positioning and Moves Into Channels to be learned. In Mkhitaryan's case, he has the PPMs of Places Shots, Likes to Round Keeper, Plays One-Twos and Cuts Inside From Left Wing, all desired PPMs. He is perfect for this scheme, but I know he's going to attract a lot of attention. I need to begin finding and training his replacement.

AML – Inside Forward, Support, Mark Tighter, Pass It Shorter, Sit Narrower, Close Down Much More, Dribble More, Cut Inside With Ball, More Risky Passes, Cross Less Often.

AMCL – Shinji Kagawa. An absolutely vital piece in the Dortmund Machine, his return from an abysmal Manchester United sentence has been amazing. His playmaking ability has been sublime, and works right into Tuchel's tactics. His diagonal movement is hard to replicate, but vital to keeping the opposition off balance. Not especially quick, but his Decisions, Anticipation, Flair and Teamwork are excellent. He helps overload on the left side offering up options to teammates and stymieing the opposition in their pressing. In my save, he hasn't been brilliant, actually rather pedestrian, but he does have an 87% pass completion with 23 key passes. With his positioning as an AMCL, it makes the defensive alignment slightly off, backed up by the DMCL holding his position, but tends to keep him on the left during the transition. On the training pitch, I've got him training as a Shadow Striker, mainly to include the physical stats in training, an additional focus of Balance (Kagawa specific) and the preferred move of Runs With Ball Down Left, mainly to induce the left side play. Mr. Kagawa has the PPMs of Places Shots, Likes To Round Keeper, Comes Deep To Get Ball, Plays One-Twos and Cuts Inside From Both Wings. The only two I'm really interested in is the Comes Deep and Plays One-Twos. I'm interested to see how the PPM of Cuts Inside works with the Dribble Down Left, to see if this induces the kind of movement I'm interested in, they cancel each other out, or they totally confuse Shinji. He's another I'm going to have to replace.

AMCL – Attacking Midfielder, Support, Shoot Less Often, Mark Tighter, Pass It Shorter, Move Into Channels.

AMR – Marco Reus. No longer undoubtedly the star of Dortmund, what with the rise of Pierre-Emerick Aubamayeng, but in the game, he's the best player in the team. His position is one of constant movement, constantly confusing the defense, offering himself up for assists and supporting Aubamayeng. He's all over the field, even switching positions with Mkhitaryan constantly throughout a match. Wanted by Barcelona and Real Madrid, he's going to be tough to keep. His replacement is an immediate concern. Reus has the PPMs of Moves Into Channels, Plays One-Twos, Knocks Ball Past Opponent and Cuts Inside From Left Wing. On the training pitch, he's training as a Ramdeuter due to the specific attributes being trained, Composure as a focus and PPM of Runs With Ball Through Center.

AMR – Ramdeuter, Attack, Dribble More, Close Down More, Mark Tighter, Pass It Shorter, Cross Less Often, Get Further Forward, Sit Narrower, Move Into Channels, Roam From Position.

STCR – Pierre-Emerick Aubamayang. Currently, scoring for fun and leading the Bundesliga with 18 goals he's having an amazing year. Being tracked by Arsenal, his FM16 persona not being as good as he has been playing. Doubts about his touch are probably accurate, I'm very impressed with him. IRL, Aubamayang is all over the place he likes to cut in from the wings, has amazing pace and is a frightening player for defenses to keep up with. Actually goals notwithstanding, I don't think he's a very important piece of Tuchel's tactical makeup, in the movement of the team as a whole. I look at him as more the final focal point, but not as involved in the buildup. I'd like to hear other's views on his position within Tuchel's makeup. I've got him training as an Advance Forward, a focus on Finishing and learning Likes To Beat Offside Trap. His PPMs are Moves Into Channels, Knocks Ball Past Opponent and Cuts Inside From Both Wings. The False Nine instructions appear to be an odd choice, this is one I'm still not 100% convinced by.

STCR – False Nine, Support, Shoot More Often, Close Down More, Mark Tighter, Pass It Shorter, Dribble More, More Risky Passes, Move Into Channels.

[Lobaeux4]

Since I'm trying to replicate Thomas Tuchel, I'll try to keep Dortmund as close to real life as possible, game engine injuries notwithstanding. I'll try to be realistic with transfers, for the opening transfer window, I put all transfer budgets at zero. Jonas Hofmann will be sold at the winter transfer window.

Preseason we focused on fitness and learning the new tactics. I spent two weeks on Team Cohesion as I believe Tuchel is huge on team harmony. The end of training camp saw a report on good team morale. I replaced the Ass Man with Michael Henke, mainly so I could get a bit better advice on tactical situations and player ability.

I've left the Academy and Dortmund II to my staff, for the first year I'll concentrate solely on the First Team. My long term plans include making the Dortmund Academy a force to be reckoned with, bringing through our own youngsters.

Goals from the board are fairly easy: Qualify for the Champions League and reach the Group Stage of the Europa League.

Now, how is the tactic working? To start with, I'm going to rely strictly on the tactic without adjusting or adapting to the opposition. Usually, I'll take a look at the opposing manager, the opposing team and slightly adjust my tactics to compensate.

Matchday four sees Dortmund at the Signal Iduna Park, at home to FC Ingolstadt. The formations are out, with the exception of Kagawa starting instead of Castro, here's how we lined up.

Defensively, we want to defend in two banks with high pressing from the bank high up the pitch. In addition, we want to surround the player with the ball. Here the Dortmund players surround the Ingolstadt player with the ball. I'm pleased with what I'm seeing defensively, but that includes the real world weaknesses that Tuchel will have to deal with, including the large space between the two banks.

[Lobaeux4]

Kachunga receives the ball out on the flank, immediately he is surrounded. The gap between the two lines is apparent.

Offensively, there's still work to do. The plan is to get an overload on the left side, with overlap and support from Schmelzer, interplay between Mkhitaryan and Kagawa, Gundogan crashing in as well. Aubameyang ready for the point, with Reus out on the right.

Here we see Reus pass the ball out wide left to Schmelzer. Gundogan is making a run into the box, but Weigl is too far up the pitch. I like the way Piszczek (RB) is separated from the action, but ready to receive the ball if the heat gets too high. The usual players are in the box.

From the stands:

Here we see Reus on the right, support coming in. The problem being the long ball up to Reus right before this shot. He's totally isolated out there. Still working on limiting the ball being hoofed up a la 2014-2015 Klopp's Dortmund.

The play is a little too spread out, still working on making the team more compact. But, here we see Mkhitaryan out wide right. He started from the left and with the Swap instruction, he's moved to the right whilst Reus has moved to the left. I like the movement, but then they forget to move back. Not sure this can be fixed without manual movement.

Here is a little better movement from the team. Kagawa has taken the pass and has started to move diagonally towards the box. Schmelzer is moving up high on the left. Reus, Abameyang and Mkhitaryan are waiting near the edge of the box. Of course, Reus and Mkhitaryan haven't moved back into their normal positions. Kagawa has Gundogan and Weigl in support, but they're behind him, not in an offensive position. Gundogan never makes his run to the box.

Here is an overhead view of the Kagawa move. Piszczek's movement has been perfect, he's out wide, but not way up on the right.

Dortmund win with a goal from Reus and a goal from Aubameyang. Prozone shows a slight favor to the left side of the pitch in regards to positioning, the shots were from the middle of the box, which is what I'm looking for. Possession was 56%, but with 0 clear cut chances, there's still much work to do. Much of the ball was in the Ingolstadt's half, but I account for a difference in player quality rather than tactical superiority.

What's next? I think I need to continue training the team to accept the new tactics. My Ass Man is still apprehensive about the tactics, so continued match training is needed. I'm pleased with the defensive aspects, I think the match engine is just fine handling the defensive side of things.

As far as the attack goes, there is a lot of room for improvement. Aubameyang is getting the looks, just not the shots. Gundogan is acting like a playmaker, that's what I want, but I also want him up in the box. Even with the player instructions, it'll take some proper PPMs to get the movement out of him that I want. Kagawa's role also needs working on. Weigl continues to be too high up the pitch.

What do I like? I'm enamored with Mkihtaryan, he's acting on the game exactly as he does in real life. I'm pleased with the fullbacks. Schmelzer is moving up on the left, getting passes, constantly moving, he's a real fly in the ointment and Piszczek's movement looks to be just like the real Piszczek. Making himself available, ready to make a run, but also ready to defend. He gets the occasional goal, but they've been longer range shots. Hummels has also been immense from what I've seen. He's defensively sound, yet the pre-architect of everything that happens offensively.

I'll keep updating as the team gets better with the tactic. Please, I welcome your comments. Pictures to follow.

[lewis999]

Great read mate. Off topic but what skin is that?

[RTHerringbone]

Fantastic opening posts. Really good detail and well supported with relevant images. Not a formation we've seen in this section yet for FM16 so I'll follow this with interest.

[Paul Scholes]

Why don't you use Gundogan as roaming playmaker?

[vasilli07]

Have you try the anchorman instead? He should hold the position better than the HB. And with your PIs, he seems to fit the anchorman role as well.

[bdixon]

Great read, loved the role breakdown and why you selected them.

[Lobaeux4]

@Paul Scholes, Roaming Playmaker was what I had first settled on, and through preseason it actually worked great, but didn't really offer the movement that Gundogsn does in real life. With RP it inhibits the Get Further Forward instruction and Gundogan wasn't getting forward enough.

@vasilli07, the Anchorman does hold position, and it would be ideal, but IRL Sokratis and Hummels play a little further apart than conventional defenders. The HB role tends to make them separate a little more. In a future post, I'll try to include subs, mainly Subotic, Bender, Ramos and Castro. With Subotic in, he plays a little closer to his partner, I think because he's not very pacy.

@RTHerringbone, thanks! Coming from you, that's high praise. I'll try not to disappoint.

[Paul Scholes]

Maybe to trie him on CM position with "roaming playmaker" role?

[Lobaeux4]

Great read mate. Off topic but what skin is that?

Thanks! I'm using the Vitrex16 skin. It's very nice, has the selection info I prefer for setting up my team.

[Lobaeux4]

Maybe to trie him on CM position with "roaming playmaker" role?

Maybe. One of the weaknesses is the gap between the two lines. With the two midfielders in a CM role, I think that would solve that gap issue. However, even though Hummels brings the ball forward quite a bit, he's always looking for Gundogan to get the ball and begin the buildup. With Gundogan in a DM position, this happens during the flow of the game.

Maybe, in the second season I'll make the change to move them to CM to close up the gap a bit. One of the benefits of managing Dortmund and trying to replicate the actual season, tactics and players used is the fact that there are no philosophies demanded by the club and the expectations are low. In the second season, I'll try and improve yet maintain the Dortmund style.

[Corner]

You could push Gundogan up to CM as a DLP(S) - his PPMs should help here, if I remember them correctly. He has the PPM to come deep to get the ball so he'll still collect the ball from the CBs and he also has Gets Forward Whenever Possible so he'll still get forward quite a bit.

[Lobaeux4]

You could push Gundogan up to CM as a DLP(S) - his PPMs should help here, if I remember them correctly. He has the PPM to come deep to get the ball so he'll still collect the ball from the CBs and he also has Gets Forward Whenever Possible so he'll still get forward quite a bit.

I would've like to do this, but it's just not working on the match engine.

Here is Gundogan:

You can see, he doesn't have the Gets Forward or Comes Deep PPMs, but I'll train them. Since he doesn't have them yet, I'll need to leave him in the DM position until he gets them.

[Lobaeux4]

Here is Hannover v. Dortmund, a match Dortmund won 4-2 in real life. It was a lot closer on my save. I used the actual lineups and substitutions, pretty close to when they were done. I'm not quite to the point where I'm changing the tactic to suit the opposition, but I'll start that with the match against Bayern.

Here are the lineups:

Reus isn't injured on my save like he was in real life, I sat him and he won't be happy about that. Ginter gets the start at RB and Adnan gets the start on the bench.

Here you can see Kagawa with the ball. The tactic is working out nicely, he's moving the ball around, has Weigl and Gundogan in support. The team is overloading the left side, Hummels and Sokratis are spread out nicely and Ginter has stayed on the right. Jonas Hoffman doesn't move around near as much as Marco Reus, so this match saw Mkihataryan move about, but without the interplay and position swapping he does with Reus.

Hummels receives the pass from Burki near the edge of the box, he turns and starts dribbling. He's got Gundogan available for the pass. I've since subbed out Weigl for Castro, who spent a few minutes playing as a DM. He was constantly out of position, which attributes to my total erase of PI for him, he was operating just off his own PPMs. In the 83rd minute, I subbed out Kagawa for Bender, moved Castro to the AMCL position and Bender to the DMCL position. Bender worked a little better in Weigl's old spot, Castro of course worked better in the Kagawa position. In this screenshot, I've got Schmelzer on the left, Mkhitaryan between Castro and Gundogan as Castro stays high up the pitch, Mkhitaryan moves about as his want and the team starts to overload the left side of the pitch. This is what I'm looking for in this tactic, just wish I had gotten a better screenshot. By this time, Terry had just scored (admittedly from an offside position), so I was jumping about when this screenshot was taken.

Here Ginter is way out of position. He plays more as an Inverted Right Back, even though he's in the Right Back position with Support instructions. IRL, he does pretty well getting up and down the right side, always available for the pass. Sokratis uses his pace to get this ball.

The final stats. We didn't dominate in this match like Dortmund did in real life. Back in September, Dortmund had 71% possession, but the shots were close, Dortmund 17, Hannover 5; Shots on target Dortmund 6, Hannover 3.

In the end, a 1-0 win for Dortmund off of a Hummels header from a corner kick. For the rest of the match, there were plenty of shots, some good ball movement, the players are starting to move a little better.

[Cleon]

A great thread. a fantastic write up so far.

[vincenzo143]

Have a soft spot for Dortmund, will definitely follow this with interest! Awesome work so far.

[Lobaeux4]

A great thread. a fantastic write up so far.

Wow! Thanks, coming from you that's high praise indeed.

Have a soft spot for Dortmund, will definitely follow this with interest! Awesome work so far.

Dortmund is such an interesting team. Absolutely huge, for those of us who follow the Premier League, I don't think we understand how big this team is, yet I look at them as a big, successful Southampton. A great developer of players, but they tend to lose those big players to Bayern or other European teams.

[Lobaeux4]

Der Klassiker. Just the thought of battling it out with FC Hollywood brings goosebumps, only the derby with Schalke is a more important match on the calendar. Dortmund rolls into town having won four of the last five, while Bayern still hasn't flexed their muscles and moved atop the table. Early in the season, this is an important test for Dortmund and a chance for Bayern to begin their run.

In my attempt to mimic and replicate Thomas Tuchel's tactics, I haven't yet done justice to one aspect of his game that makes him such a strong and admired trainer. His ability to adapt to opponents prior to a match and adapt during the match sets him apart from other trainers. I have yet to explore this side of his style. With the match against Bayern, Tuchel dramatically changed his tactics, going with a 4-3-1-2, packing the midfield, narrowing the pitch without the overload of one side. I've attempted to replicate this switch, with the personnel Tuchel used during that match. The real match ended 5-1 in Bayern's favor, let's see if we can better.

The lineups are in, and there were a few surprises.

With the move to a 4-3-1-2, Mkhitaryan was moved into a supporting striker role with Aubameyang. With the 4-3-1-2, we packed the middle of the pitch and conceded the flanks. Kagawa found very little space to move in. The move of Sokratis to RB was an interesting choice. Due to injury and the thought of Robben rampaging down the left side, a more defensive minded player might work better to negate his effects, especially with the pace of Sokratis. IRL it was Costa instead of Robben, but same thought process. And, in a way it worked. It wasn't Robben that got us, it was the Bayern left side players tearing up and exposing a more forward thinking Schmelzer.

Route One was the order of the day and we kept hoofing the ball up the pitch, more reminiscent of Klopp's Dortmund last year. The middle of the pitch was packed.

The shift in tactics worked, at the break we went in ahead, 1-0 on a beautiful strike from Aubameyang.

Here, Mkhitaryan receives the ball out wide from Schmelzer, he drives to the line and crosses it to Aubamayeng. Aubamayeng beats his man to the ball and slots it home.

After the break, Tuchel changed his tactics. He moved to more of a 4-2-3-1, with Castro moving out to the right wing, and during our match its where everything broke down.

We lost our compact shape and tried to match up with Bayern's players. Bad mistake, as Muller and Rafinha seemed to finally find their way.

We switched to a 4-1-4-1, moving Mkhitaryan next to Gundagon, Reus moving to he left winger position and Januszaj subbing in to the right midfielder position. I can see why Adnan was sent back to Manchester United, he's fairly useless.

With the switch to Mkhitaryan next to Gundogan, it just made it easier for Guardiola and Bayern to match up. Here, Mkhitaryan has the ball, but as soon as he turns, he's closed down and all his options have been covered. The only thing he can do is pass it back, but that just served to stifle any organized advancement. This seemed to be Bayern's tactics and it worked out to a tee. After the break, they snuffed out any organized buildup.

Miller ripped us apart as he moved inside. Rafinha held down the flanks and the two of them just toyed with us. Here Muller receives a through ball which pretty much sliced open the midfield. The back four are in a nice line, but with Gundogan pressing so far forward, it left a two on two in midfield. This would've been okay, but the individual brilliance of Muller outweighed the tactics of Tuchel. Just after this screenshot, Muller out maneuvered the back line, but put the ball just right of the post.

In the end, we just couldn't match up player for player. The initial tactic worked, it packed the middle, pretty much negating their midfield, but everything fell apart in the second half. We did do better than the real life Dortmund, as Bayern only got us for a 3-1 loss. Still, the players are dejected and we've dropped down to 6th place.

The important thing I learned was how important it is to Thomas Tuchel to change and adapt to the opposition. I hadn't done this at all up to this point in the season. Now that I've opened that option, I'll continue to plan for each opposition using my scout's report and adapt during the match.

Next, I'll look at how different substitutes change the overall tactic and what I gain and lose with a change in personnel.

[Corner]

I would've like to do this, but it's just not working on the match engine.

Here is Gundogan:

You can see, he doesn't have the Gets Forward or Comes Deep PPMs, but I'll train them. Since he doesn't have them yet, I'll need to leave him in the DM position until he gets them.

Strange, he certainly had them in previous versions of the game. But it would be interesting to see if training this PPMs would have the desired effect - it should in theory.

[Lobaeux4]

@corner, I'm hoping so. I don't think ill have him past the first year, I'm sure his head will get turned, but I'll keep trying to train him. I've got my eye on his replacement.

[Guest]

Excellent work here, very impressed with this.

[RTHerringbone]

Am I alone in not being able to see the images in post #22?

[Guest]

No, I can't see them either.

[summatsupeer]

Interesting topic, i'll be lurking a bit.

Am I alone in not being able to see the images in post #22?

Same, Lobaeux4 has linked the image management page not the actual image.

[Lobaeux4]

Sorry guys.

Should be working now.

[kharza_xo]

Great thread! I've been working on the same project in FM16. Maybe we can collaborate a bit.

Here are some of the reference articles I've used to break down the tactic:

Julian Weigl role

Tuchel Juego De Posicion

Build up Play

So we agree 100% on the center backs. I have a BPD-Stopper DCL and CD-Cover DCR there as well

I have both outside backs as Wing Backs and have swapped between WB-Su and occasionally WB-Atk on the left side depending on the match up. Stay wide PI's (higher and wide in build up). I toss in Look for Overlap when I do this as well.

I've gone back and forth on the Weigl, Gundogan roles and messed around with Regista, BBM, RPM here. I've been currently working the suggested approach of pushing Gundogan into the CM and playing the RPM. It's ok but not quite the movement. Personally I think the BBM-Su with Get Further Forward has been the closest I've gotten. I've had the Regista role for Weigl at the moment because of his importance during the build up, but I like the Half Back idea and might give that a spin.

Up front I've pretty much settled on the AF-Atk for Aubameyang and Treq-Atk for Kagawa role. If you play the Treq-Atk role with a player that has the Comes Deep to get Ball PPM it works wonders to recreate that space finding role and will let that position drift to the left during build up. This is the main assist maker in the team and gets a ton of key passes.

For Reus and Mkhitaryan I've struggled a bit to get the offensive movement while maintaining defensive structure. Currently I've brought both positions inside to AMC Left and Right on either side of the Treq and I believe I've been using AP-A for Reus on the right and AM-A for Mkhitaryan on the left. I've given them individual marking instructions to pull them back out to the wings in defense to get the 2 banks of 4 (man mark the fullbacks). This has seemed to keep them tucked inside a bit more and has especially provided that left side build up I've been looking for.

Team Instructions have been: Mixed Passing, Play out of Defense, Work Ball Into Box, Whipped Crosses, Exploit Left Flank, Push Higher Up, Close Down Much More, Prevent Short GK Distribution.

I've really started to not like the Retain possession instruction for some reason. I also don't think that BvB is all short passing, especially switching flanks and even some of Hummels balls from deep. I also think that shorter passing and retain possession limit the brutal counter attacking that BvB still shows when the opportunity is there. I've played around with the Mentality a bunch and I've settled on Counter or Attacking (I started with Control as well and while on paper it appears to be the right mentality it never played out that well for me). I've stuck with flexible from the beginning as well. True to form my first season I'm in 2nd behind Bayern and Aubameyang has like 20 goals through March. Reus forced a move away and I swear in almost every game I've spun up with BvB even in testing I've never been able to keep him.

I'm fairly happy with the back 4 and my build up but I do believe the challenge is finding the right balance and roles for Weigl/Gundogan and Reus/Mkhitaryan. Otherwise I'm pretty happy with the following:

AF-A/Treq-A Combo for Aubameyang and Kagawa roles

BPD-X/CD-C for Hummels and Sokartis

WBL/WBR for Smelzer and Pischzek/Ginter

SK-Su for Burki

That's from my notes and memory. I'll post all my specific team and player instructions when I get a chance to fire up the game and check.

[Lobaeux4]

@kharza_xo, this is some good stuff. I've adjusted my second slot to reflect your take on Tuchel's tactics to see how well they work. Currently, in the 67th minute against Schalke, we're up 1-0 on a Reus goal. Wait! 2-0 off of a Reus FK!

I think between the two of us, we might have a good representation of Tuchel's tactics.

For the philosophy, I'm switching to attacking. One of the drawbacks to Tuchel's system is the vulnerability to the counterattack. The team shape I've left at fluid to encourage a compact shape.

As far as team instructions, I'm agreeing with you on the passing portion of the instructions. I've moved back to mixed and nixed the retain possession. I'm going to rely on some PIs for those. I've switched closing down to Much More and left Play Out Of Defense active.

The back four is really working. I've left Weigl as a HB, mainly because I want Hummels and Sokratis to spread wide. Gundogan is proving a problem, the only instructions I see that will work is as a Regista. This allows him to have PIs of Dribble More, Get Forward and Shoot More. I think the FBs work better with Schmelzer as a WB-A and Piszczek as a FB-S with the instruction of Sit Narrower.

The front four seems to work a little better with them in the positions of AMCL-AMC-AMCR. The tend to stay more central than as wingers with the Sit Narrow instruction. PPMs will help here.

Still working the possibilities, I'm looking for the right moment to do a write up with Castro in place of Kagawa and Bender being used somewhere along the back line. I've also got to get Ginter in, using him as a RB.

[Ghents]

So you're using Kagawa as an AMC(Treq) behind the AF and man marking the AMCL/R to the respective fullbacks?

Sounds similar to what I used to do in FM14. INTERESTING.

[kharza_xo]

Yep I agree and I had a Europa league game against Tottenham which while I won 2-1 the 1 goal was on a vicious counter attack by Erikson, Kane, and Lamela that sliced me right open in the back. It's funny because I started FM16 trying to develop a very fluid style and the more I've dug in the more I move away from the very fluid style. I agree with the fluid idea and I'm going to tweak my tactic with your input and see if I can't take it back to fluid because of the tweaks. Attacking/Fluid feels right and I think Counter/Fluid is good for tough away matches (i.e the Bayern games..). I threw my youth squad up against Bayern in a Counter/Fluid and they damn near pulled it out.. up 2-0 at break but lost it in the second half to only come away with a 2-2 draw.

I think the HB/Regista pairing has some potential and might finally get us the right pairing (I like your PI take on it too.. Regista feels right for Gundogan too). And yes the AMCL-AMC-AMCR has been much more successful in having them in the half spaces and proper locations especially playing out of the back over trying to use normal wingers sitting inside. The interplay with all three set to roam from position seems to recreate the interplay between Kagawa, Reus, and Mkhitaryan that we see.

If you want to really have some fun.. set the AMC to a Treq-Atk and get Eden Hazard to play that position... he won World Player of the Year for me playing that role and was consistently over 8.0 every match (Key Passes and Assist king). The Comes Deep to Get Ball is key with that and seems to be what connects the build up and the attack.

Gabriel Barbosa (AF-A), Renato Sanchez (he is your Kagawa replacement..), Lincoln (can fill any of the AMC roles) are great youth players for the system too.

[kharza_xo]

So you're using Kagawa as an AMC(Treq) behind the AF and man marking the AMCL/R to the respective fullbacks?

Sounds similar to what I used to do in FM14. INTERESTING.

Yep that is exactly what I'm doing.

[Lobaeux4]

The only issue I see with Kagawa right now with Treq-A, is the lack of closing down, but that's not a big deal. Roam from position for all three seems ludicrous, but it works great! They're moving and shifting all over the place. It's really creating havoc for opposing defenses.

I wish training for PPMs didn't take so long!

As far as youth or replacements, I'm looking at Davie Selke for Aubameyang, different type of player, but might fit better actually with this system, especially if I can train him to be a Diego Costa-type player.

If I lose any star players, I'll replace them with:

Youri Tielmans in place of Ilkay Gundogan.

Kevin Volland for Marco Reus.

Lincoln for Henrikh Mkhitaryan.

Ginter for Hummels. Bzunic, Psulic, Passalek will all move up to First Team.

[kharza_xo]

So make sure you try to play with a Treq-A with Come Deep to Get ball before you call off the closing down. I read something recently I think in regards to the AF-A/Treq-A combo that even though it says the Treq-A doesn't close down they will if the comes deep PPM is there too. And sure enough I've seen it happen in game. Maybe it is the CDMM Team Instruction bumping the close down of the role up (which would make sense) and the PPM bringing them deeper in defense. I've even messed around with having the Treq-A man mark too. Now don't get me wrong you really don't look for the player in that role to have high positioning or tackling, but keeping a good shape never hurts things.

Tell me about PPM training.. makes it so much harder to test an idea or tactic. Although I have started to use Touch create a club and just put on players with the PPMs I want to try ideas out. After losing Reus and Kagawa by the first transfer window I focused less on the particular players and more on the tactical concept. This system actually started with me trying to recreate Tuchel's system @ Chelsea.

[kharza_xo]

Here is my current setup:

AF-A (default PIs)

AMCL - AM-Atk (Roam and Move into Channels PIs)

AMC - T-Atk (default PIs)

AMCR - AM-Atk (Roam PI)

WBL - WB-Atk - (Cross Aim Centre, Stay Wider PIs)

WBR - WB-Su - (Cross Aim Centre, Stay Wider PIs)

BPD-X - (Default PIs)

CD-Cover - (Default PIs)

SK-Su (Distribute to Centre Backs, Roll it out, Slow Pace Down)

Per the discussion I'm trying a DMCL - HB-Def (Tackle Harder PI) and DMCR - RGA-Su (Shoot More Often, Dribble More, Tackle Harder, Get Further Forward PIs)

Trying Attacking/Fluid (Counter/Fluid for tougher match ups and some away games) with Pass Into Space, Play out of Defense, Work Ball Into Box, Whipped Crosses, Exploit Left Flank, Look for Overlap (only when the WBL is in Atk), Close Down Much More, Prevent Short GK Distribution

First game with that setup.. derby with Schalke.. 5-2 BvB.. Aubameyang with a hat trick. Lethal going forward and just the right amount of weakness in the back. I think we got the Weigl/Gundogan combo.. that really works. I still think the passing is a bit off though. Won more through lethal counters than purposeful possession (53% possession.. the 75% pass completion in midfield is what has me concerned.. 82% in final third though). 21 shots, 13 on target (+5 blocked), 3 CCC and 8 Half Chances.

[vasilli07]

Here is my current setup:

AF-A (default PIs)

AMCL - AM-Atk (Roam and Move into Channels PIs)

AMC - T-Atk (default PIs)

AMCR - AM-Atk (Roam PI)

WBL - WB-Atk - (Cross Aim Centre, Stay Wider PIs)

WBR - WB-Su - (Cross Aim Centre, Stay Wider PIs)

BPD-X - (Default PIs)

CD-Cover - (Default PIs)

SK-Su (Distribute to Centre Backs, Roll it out, Slow Pace Down)

Per the discussion I'm trying a DMCL - HB-Def (Tackle Harder PI) and DMCR - RGA-Su (Shoot More Often, Dribble More, Tackle Harder, Get Further Forward PIs)

Trying Attacking/Fluid (Counter/Fluid for tougher match ups and some away games) with Pass Into Space, Play out of Defense, Work Ball Into Box, Whipped Crosses, Exploit Left Flank, Look for Overlap (only when the WBL is in Atk), Close Down Much More, Prevent Short GK Distribution

First game with that setup.. derby with Schalke.. 5-2 BvB.. Aubameyang with a hat trick. Lethal going forward and just the right amount of weakness in the back. I think we got the Weigl/Gundogan combo.. that really works. I still think the passing is a bit off though. Won more through lethal counters than purposeful possession (53% possession.. the 75% pass completion in midfield is what has me concerned.. 82% in final third though). 21 shots, 13 on target (+5 blocked), 3 CCC and 8 Half Chances.

I think the reason for your not so high possession is because you have too many players in the attacking third. Because of the attack duty, your players will always be trying to force pass their way forward instead of recycling possession if there is no way forward.

[Blarry]

Well, Dortmund's is about the most obnoxious example of how FM just isn't flexible enough to do what football teams do.

It begins with finding the proper roles and formations. The basic defensive shape is something along the line of a 4-1-4-1:

http://sharemytactics.com/60099/

That's what it looks like statically, and adding movement is where it begins to break down in FM already. What any player does depends on the context of the situation at hand and a good chunk of random decision making. What's unusual for a team that averages over 60% possession is that there's not a lot of pressure on the opposing back going on. Typically, Aubameyang is hassling the central defenders and annoying the goalkeeper with his brutal dashes to force the long ball. In your run-of-the-mill hard-pressing possession regaining approach, both wide midfielders would charge forward as well, trying to unsettle the opponent build-up play. This rarely happens with this year's Dortmund. Occasionally, Reus or Mkhitaryan will push up, but most of the time, they stay deep, covering the area between the opposing central midfield and fullbacks, to have a grasp on both. More often however, Dortmund's left central midfielder (usually Kagawa) will move out of the midfield line to chase down deep players together with Aubameyang, temporarily creating the tried and tested 4-4-2 defensive formation.

This more passive approach to getting the ball back helps win the ball in more promising, carefully crafted situations, obviously further down Dortmund's own half, as the additional deep man in a 4-1-4-1 defense compared to 4-4-2 or 4-3-3 allows for a tighter web of players to close down shop. The method to win back the ball is rather lovely thought out as well. By good defensive positioning, the ball is forced into certain pre-defined areas where closing down pressure is applied more vigorously. Then, it's usually just a matter of time until the ball carrier panicks out and starts having ball controll issues - not a good thing to have when he's being swarmed by two, three players at once. That sort of micro-managing a certain player and group behaviour just isn't in FM yet.

The same applies to offensive play. Despite a lot of creative freedom going on with the front three, there are certain passing patterns that can be found in almost every game Dortmund played this season, which we again can't impelement (or, if you prefer, "coach our players") because there's no way to. Schemes as "from the center in front of the opponent box, diagonally lob the ball to the goal line around the edge of the box towards your fullback, who volleys a low cross into the six yard area" happen regularly because they're coached and learned in training. Something's going wrong when you find yourself having an easier time playing a certain way in bloody FIFA than in a game that is nothing but a tactical match engine.

Should be enough about "features we don't have, but desperately need". Let's move on to "features we already have, but can't utilize our way nonetheless".

Player roles. Bloody player roles and their dim-witted, narrow-minded, flexible-as-steel-beams behavioural scripts.

Y'know what? Let's go through the default Dortmund line-up player per player.

GK: Roman Bürki. Nothing spectacular here. G/D, SK/D, SK/S, everything sort of works as it should. Moving on.

DCL: Mats Hummels. This so screams BPD/St. Without the ball, it's alright. With the ball, it's kind of botched, but not as bad as it could be. Plays less long balls than the in-game role forces him to, however moves up the field more often than the role tells him to, almost like a Libero should. And then there's the odd game (take FK Qabala at home) where things break down into a 1-3-3-3 formation, with Hummels alongside his central midfielders because there's literally nothing to defend, but let's not go there. Passes the ball low whenever possible, favourably into the central No.10 area.

DCR: Sokratis Papastathopoulos. CD/D is alright and works alright with his innate Me-No-Like-Ball mentality.

LB: Marcel Schmelzer. FB/S is okay, I guess. Not much tinkering to do. Really needs "Push higher up" and "Stay wider" as PI, since both fullbacks play really high up the pitch when in possession while still dropping back to receive short passes from their respective central defenders. So it basically should have "Push higher up" and "Stay wider" as well as "Comes deep to get ball" as PPM, which feels contradicting, but that's how they do. Sigh.

RB: Matthias Ginter. Despite being a natural centre back, he's much more attack-minded than Schmelzer on the left side, and at 1,89 metres, he really plays more of what would be a Wide Target Man in-game. WB/A seems like the obvious choice here, there are a few caveats though. Despite a lovely first touch and sufficient agility to nail even more difficult passes to his foot, he keeps things simple on the ground, avoiding having to make too many dribbles. There's a lot of mass to be accelerated there, so he sticks to a more linear play without the technical ambitions of your typical wingback. Loves to use his body size to his advantage, as most fullbacks tend to be shorter. So yeah, maybe FB/A then? He gets inside the box too often for a fullback, though. Difficult case here.

DM: Julian Weigl. Oh dear. Disclaimer here, I cannot stand this guy playing holding midfielder. His laziness when tracking opponents cost Dortmund many a goal this season, and even during today's game in Mönchengladbach he stood around watching Gladbach's goal unfold without even scratching his arse. Anyway, we have a problem. There's too many roles in the DM strata to choose from, and Weigl sort of does a bit of every one of them. He's definitely the anchor between central defense and central midfield. But he doesn't stand around in the middle of the square waiting for balls, instead he's roaming around wherever the other deep players need a short, sensible, safe passing option. Well, not "roaming aroung wherever", rather "roaming around horizontally", I suppose? His action area is basically 10 yards deep and 60 yards wide. What you gonna call this? "Horizontal Roaming Anchor Man"? This doesn't work.

CMR: Ilkay Gündogan. Okay, this is taking it too far. Remember how the right back used to push up the field, almost into a wide attacker position? Yeah, guess what, Gündogan usually drops to the outside to the touchline, occupying the right back position while in possession. This was when after 200 hours of FM16, I lost faith. There's no way in hell you're going to reproduce that, although there's rumours of "Move into channels" doing exactly that outside positioning for deeper players. From a "how does he play" standpoint, it's a DLP/S, with occasional runs through the middle of the park and into the box. But the core problem here is his positioning during build-up play.

CML: Shinji Kagawa. Similar problem as with Weigl, as there's no role that really fits him. Lots of vertical movement, but not much of it clinging to the ball, more focussed on spraying passes around than dribbling for 50 yards on every occasion. AP/S or RPM come the closest, I reckon, however, Kagawa is a frequent guest in the opponent's box - which'd call for AP/A or CM/A, who both have much more dribbling written on the forehead than Kagawa does when not neccessary. Duh.

RM and LM usually switch positions a couple of time in the game, so take the following with a pinch of salt.

RM: Marco Reus. If he were on the left, you'd immediately scream "IF/A!" and throw tomatoes at me. On the right side however, FM lacks a clearly defined "Generic Wide Attacker" role. He's part of the midfield-four when in defense, he comes back to circulate the ball in the centre, he plays one-twos with Gündogan and Ginter, he stays wide when neccessary, he cuts inside when there's space, he moves into channels, he stays at the offside line, ... "do a bit of everything" is WM/S territory. However, your Wide Midfielder in game will never get anywhere near the goals Reus is scoring. So yeah, that's that.

LM: Henrikh Mkhitaryan. Basically the same as Marco, only with work rate and willingness to help out defensively turned up to 21. In all seriousness, I've never seen an out-and-out attacker throw his legs into so many pass attempts of their opposition. His positioning, tackling and interception skills have created us so many goals in the past year, it's ridiculous. But yeah, it's really a jack-of-all-trades offensive role. It might even be okay to move him up to IF/S.

ST: Pierre-Emerick Aubameyang. Poacher. It feels so good to have a player done in one word.

Guys? It's getting 5am, and I'm getting tired. Gonna write more tomorrow. Night.