Rashidi Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 Nope. Have moved to the top heavy 4-2-3-1 now, so if anything, any future updates will be changes to / from that system. So we all playing the same system now :-)...I am gonna switch back to 4141 lol Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RTHerringbone Posted January 31, 2016 Author Share Posted January 31, 2016 So we all playing the same system now :-)...I am gonna switch back to 4141 lol Beginning to worry that we're all alias accounts of the same person...... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
poobington Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 Really enjoyed your post on the attacking mentality and it has got me tinkering with an old 3-4-3 i developed for fm 2013 before when sliders were still used. Without wanting to hijack your thread I'd like to pick your brain on making it work Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RTHerringbone Posted January 31, 2016 Author Share Posted January 31, 2016 Really enjoyed your post on the attacking mentality and it has got me tinkering with an old 3-4-3 i developed for fm 2013 before when sliders were still used. Without wanting to hijack your thread I'd like to pick your brain on making it work It wouldn't be a thread hijack, the whole point of the thread was to get people to see my own take on how to tweak systems, and then think about how they would tweak things themselves. Fire away, would be interested to see what you have in mind. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
poobington Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 It wouldn't be a thread hijack, the whole point of the thread was to get people to see my own take on how to tweak systems, and then think about how they would tweak things themselves. Fire away, would be interested to see what you have in mind. Well prior to reading your post my team lined up something like this: ----------------------SK(D)----------------------- ------BPD (D)-----BPD ©-----BPD (D)--------- DW(S)----CM(D)---------CM(A)------DW(S)---- -------AF(A)-------DLF(S)------TQ(A)----------- Attacking Mentality and Flexible Shape TIs were to push the defensive line slightly up, close down more and pass shorter. Admittedly at first these were selected to mimic the tactic I had created previously and initially I saw a lot of similarities. Quick penetrating football from back to front. The defenders would ping long direct forwards into my attacking trio and with the support of the wingers and the CM(A) there was a lot of movement going forward. Sadly this also left me hugely exposed. Initially i experimented with going to control but the team seem to loose that full throttle edge to the football. Instead I removed the instructions to push higher and to close down more and I am certainly seeing more stability as players are not closing down as much, but at the same time I'm not seeing the harrying and pressing which caused us to win the ball back quickly. I have tried preventing short GK distribution, i order to emulate the pressing effect of your attacking players but am still not seeing much effect during matches. Thats where I am at. A bit short of ideas but a discussion may prove helpful. EDIT: I also tried changing all the CBs to standard CD(D). This sometimes worked nicely with the defenders feeding the midfield rather than bypassing them. In the instances this would happen the midfield would have a lovely quick interchanges. I would often see the the Defensive wingers quickly switch the play from one end of the pith to the other catching the opposition off guard and leading to a goal. However, when the defenders decided to play the ball long it was usually aimless as opposed to when they were ball playing defenders. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RTHerringbone Posted January 31, 2016 Author Share Posted January 31, 2016 When I look at the 3-4-3, I can't see the plan. My 4-2-3-1 has, at least in my head, a clear way of building attacks, and a clear structure to help it defend, and that defensive vision is really important in a Attacking Mentality system. I can't quite see how the MCs combine either. That Duty split (one Defend, one Attack) will create a divide in the middle of the pitch, so you potentially have space in a few areas which can be targeted by the opposition. Overall, I think my formation is easier to balance because I have dedicated wide defenders starting two strata deeper than your DWs. We have DMs with split Duties to aid defending but also attacking transitions. We have greater depth up front too, with the AMC trio and just one striker. Whilst the formation screen on the tactics creator doesn't mean you rigidly play as a 3-4-3, it does make it harder for you to get that fluency from front to back. If I were using such a system, I would go about things a little differently. As said above, you need that connection from front to back, but I think your Duty allocation creates separation. I would have a Defend / Support pairing in MC and probably two Support Duties and one Attack up front. That *should* see better linking play through the middle and would possibly take some defensive strain from the more defensive MC. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
James9 Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 RTH this is a great thread. I just would like to ask about your wings do you find that you get attack down the wings because you are playing with 3 AMC and no wingers to track or cover the full backs. Also does your DMC get pulled out wide to cover the wings leaving your Center exposed to a quick counter through the middle from the opposition. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
xantheose Posted February 1, 2016 Share Posted February 1, 2016 Finally took a break of FM and read this thread. Great piece of work mate, I really love threads like these. I get inspired and the detailed Role choice and how they work in game, with examples, pictures, makes me understand the game better. All I know about FM is from this forum. Of course, I am still confused about some aspects of the game. There's a long list, but I'll limit to the 4-1-4-1 formation if you mind (my favorite in game), regarding the second part of this article. - You said that Team Shape and Mentality are linked. Could you explain, with simpler words (sorry, English is not my maternal language) how exactly one affects the other? I understand more attacking mentalities correlate with Fluid/Very Fluid, while more conservative mentalities correlate with Structured/Highly Structured. I saw someone explained, few posts above, that the cause of this link is the vertical depth. How does this work? - How would the system react if say, Attacking mentality was coupled with Highly Structured? - One more question. In the first place, you've coupled a Winger on Attack with CWB on Support. Did you add any PI to the winger, given the fact that he would cross more often in Attack than in Support? Also, did the CWB overlap often the winger? How wide did they stay on the pitch? - Does the winger stay wider, by default, than a Wide Midfielder (theoretically it should). Thank you. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RTHerringbone Posted February 1, 2016 Author Share Posted February 1, 2016 RTH this is a great thread. I just would like to ask about your wings do you find that you get attack down the wings because you are playing with 3 AMC and no wingers to track or cover the full backs. Also does your DMC get pulled out wide to cover the wings leaving your Center exposed to a quick counter through the middle from the opposition. Yep, we get attacked down the flanks. However, the DM pairing exists to try to mitigate that a little. The AMC players do all track back pretty well, but not as well if they were MCs. As stated in the fourth big post, it's a risk vs. reward thing and I don't use this system in every match. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleon Posted February 1, 2016 Share Posted February 1, 2016 Yep, we get attacked down the flanks. However, the DM pairing exists to try to mitigate that a little. The AMC players do all track back pretty well, but not as well if they were MCs. As stated in the fourth big post, it's a risk vs. reward thing and I don't use this system in every match. Risk vs Reward You used to be quite the cautious manager when you first started posting on here iirc? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RTHerringbone Posted February 1, 2016 Author Share Posted February 1, 2016 Risk vs Reward You used to be quite the cautious manager when you first started posting on here iirc? Still am really and would take a season of 1-0s over anything else, but sometimes you have to flex your approach to best manage a match. The most important thing (for me) is that when I change approach, I need to acknowledge that things will change. I saw a post yesterday on the forum where someone went from Counter to Overload for half a match, and then bemoaned the fact that they conceded goals and only took a handful of shots. A change in Mentality towards the attacking isn't just a free pass to lots of shots but also retained defensive stability. When you make a big change, you need to be prepared for changes in the way you defend and attack. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RTHerringbone Posted February 1, 2016 Author Share Posted February 1, 2016 - You said that Team Shape and Mentality are linked. Could you explain, with simpler words (sorry, English is not my maternal language) how exactly one affects the other? I understand more attacking mentalities correlate with Fluid/Very Fluid, while more conservative mentalities correlate with Structured/Highly Structured. I saw someone explained, few posts above, that the cause of this link is the vertical depth. How does this work?If you read Rashidi's latest thread about Mentality and Team Shape, and Cleon's latest Attacking thread you'll see more about it. It's just about depth, compactness and discipline. Nothing necessarily correlates with anything, it's about what you want. You can play Attacking and Very Fluid or Attacking and Highly Structured. There is no 1:1 relationship or "rule". I went for Structured with the 4-1-4-1 because I thought that would create larger vertical gaps, but the issue I had was one of Mentality and not of Team Shape. As soon as I boosted Mentality, the MC players more readily attacked space. In the 4-2-3-1 I went Fluid to try to make the front four play closer together, and to try to compress the distance from front to back to bridge the gap from DC to ST. http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/450824-Shape-mentality-and-the-theory-of-relativity http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/451062-The-Art-of-Attacking-Football - How would the system react if say, Attacking mentality was coupled with Highly Structured? You'd get more discipline and more depth from front to back. More space. - One more question. In the first place, you've coupled a Winger on Attack with CWB on Support. Did you add any PI to the winger, given the fact that he would cross more often in Attack than in Support? Also, did the CWB overlap often the winger? How wide did they stay on the pitch? No, didn't change anything. - Does the winger stay wider, by default, than a Wide Midfielder (theoretically it should). Yes. Thank you. Updated above in bold Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
desmond31 Posted February 4, 2016 Share Posted February 4, 2016 Hi RTH ! I was wondering if I could pick your brain a bit. Taking inspiration from your new 4-2-3-1 attacking tactic here and Cleon's new attacking thread, I have tried to get a tactic going on my Villa save. The tactic has been set up to try and get the best out of my current crop of players and to play a style of football which I cherish. Here is the tactic: Now to pick your brain ! Quite unsurprisingly, the toughest tests I encounter are more often than not against deep, defence minded tactics. However, the most difficult challenge is against those type of tactics but ones which play two DMs. Play can become highly congested in the middle and my team quickly becomes stifled. Your formation has a similarity in that it is also top heavy and centre based with your 3 AMs and ST. Do you also have difficulties against these types of formations ? My immediate thought process is to look to the flanks (my WBs) for help but if the opposing team has two men on either flank, they can quickly become sterile. I'm not really looking to play another formation with extra wide players as I don't really have them at my disposal. What do you suggest to combat this conundrum ? Thank you in advance for your help. P.S. If you see any glaring flaws in my tactic, don't hesitate to say so ! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RTHerringbone Posted February 4, 2016 Author Share Posted February 4, 2016 Now to pick your brain ! Quite unsurprisingly, the toughest tests I encounter are more often than not against deep, defence minded tactics. However, the most difficult challenge is against those type of tactics but ones which play two DMs. Play can become highly congested in the middle and my team quickly becomes stifled. Your formation has a similarity in that it is also top heavy and centre based with your 3 AMs and ST. Do you also have difficulties against these types of formations ? My immediate thought process is to look to the flanks (my WBs) for help but if the opposing team has two men on either flank, they can quickly become sterile. I'm not really looking to play another formation with extra wide players as I don't really have them at my disposal. What do you suggest to combat this conundrum ? Thank you in advance for your help.P.S. If you see any glaring flaws in my tactic, don't hesitate to say so ! Coincidentally, in the fourth season on my save, the Premier League is also flooded with 2 DM tactics - mostly the Deep 4-2-3-1 wide. Play certainly does become congested and I'm actually toying with another variation to try to best deal with that. In the Attacking system I had, our front four is a little different to yours, and in the examples I posted, we tended to be able to move the AI around and still pick a way through, but it needs really precise play to work. I'm taking the easy way out, and will alleviate the congestion by reducing the number of players in that area. I'll probably revert to a Deep 4-2-3-1 of my own, but the "3" probably won't all be in the AMC line. My midfield is pretty versatile, so I can deploy players basically from ML to AML or AMC, and similarly on the right. In your system, I'd possibly think about how to try to split the DMs to give the AMC and ST a clear run at two DCs. To do that, you could look for Roles that allow (or have hard coded) Moves Into Channels or Roaming. Possibly get a Support Duty guy in the AMC line from an outer position like AMLC or AMRC moving into Channels, and have the guy beside him on Attack with direct running straight through the middle - no Roaming or anything for him. I'm also considering a Mentality change, so I have a Countering deep 4-2-3-1 which can pull the DMs forward and hope to hit them quickly on the break. Generally, I like the system. Attacking is a brave Mentality to use as a default and mine tends to be more situational - I more often use the Control 4-1-4-1 or this new Counter system - if I can get it to work! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
desmond31 Posted February 4, 2016 Share Posted February 4, 2016 Coincidentally, in the fourth season on my save, the Premier League is also flooded with 2 DM tactics - mostly the Deep 4-2-3-1 wide. Play certainly does become congested and I'm actually toying with another variation to try to best deal with that. In the Attacking system I had, our front four is a little different to yours, and in the examples I posted, we tended to be able to move the AI around and still pick a way through, but it needs really precise play to work.I'm taking the easy way out, and will alleviate the congestion by reducing the number of players in that area. I'll probably revert to a Deep 4-2-3-1 of my own, but the "3" probably won't all be in the AMC line. My midfield is pretty versatile, so I can deploy players basically from ML to AML or AMC, and similarly on the right. In your system, I'd possibly think about how to try to split the DMs to give the AMC and ST a clear run at two DCs. To do that, you could look for Roles that allow (or have hard coded) Moves Into Channels or Roaming. Possibly get a Support Duty guy in the AMC line from an outer position like AMLC or AMRC moving into Channels, and have the guy beside him on Attack with direct running straight through the middle - no Roaming or anything for him. I'm also considering a Mentality change, so I have a Countering deep 4-2-3-1 which can pull the DMs forward and hope to hit them quickly on the break. Generally, I like the system. Attacking is a brave Mentality to use as a default and mine tends to be more situational - I more often use the Control 4-1-4-1 or this new Counter system - if I can get it to work! Thanks for the quick reply ! I've just made a change to the system as the DLP-support was too conservative (Hold Position enforced) so I'm going to try a Roaming Playmaker to get him more involved with and perhaps a bit closer to the 2 AMs. Regarding the problem mentioned, the deep 4-2-3-1 has certainly been my nemesis. Dropping down to control hasn't helped that much when tried. Standard and Counter with this system would be dysfunctional in my opinion but the idea of enticing out the DMs is definately a solution. Bringing them forward and perhaps slightly out of their comfort zone through a counter tactic is appealing. However, I have struggled to build a narrow counter tactic sadly and my players really do suit a centre of the pitch based tactic. The other idea of toying with some of the PIs is very interesting. As you have mentioned in your detailed post on your attacking tactic, the beauty of the Attacking Midfielder is that you have pretty much carte blanche to mould him to what you are looking for in your tactic (overall or in game). I'll try out some ideas next time the situation pops up and see how the opposing DMs react. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter T Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 thank you RTHerringbone!This article came just in time since i am trying to build a 4-1-4-1 for my newly promoted Arminia in Bundesliga and i need all the help i can get. I think i might be on to something. After reading all the posts here i deciced to give it a go and try my version of 4-1-4-1 in order to help Arminia stay afloat in Bundesliga. This is how we compare to the rest of the league at the end of the summer transfers in the 3rd season: Defence Midfield Attack Formation and TIs Pretty standard i think. Sometimes the Anch turns into a halfback but that;s about it. I want us to be as tight as possible, especially at the back. But i also wanted us, to be quite aggressive (hence the attacking mentality) Our battle plan is, to absorb as much pressure as we can and create few but quite good goal-scoring opportunities. If i am desperate to score a goal, i change the formation in 4-4-1 (engance)-1(poacher) and it has proven to be quite effective (since, for some reason most teams in Bundesliga play a 4-4-2 so i can exploit the space between their defence and midfield). Home: Away: Combined: Not in my wildest dreams! So, i guess, a big thank you is in order. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RTHerringbone Posted February 11, 2016 Author Share Posted February 11, 2016 That's a cracking start to the season! You're at the midway point in the season now, so keep an eye out for signs that the teams you face for the second time aren't playing a little more cautiously for you. I find that the first half of the season for a promoted side tends to be far easier than the second. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sparky_07 Posted February 24, 2016 Share Posted February 24, 2016 Anymore updates on this RTH. Started using the attacking 4231 and changed the wingbacks to Attack duty, both defensive midfielders on defend duty. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RTHerringbone Posted February 24, 2016 Author Share Posted February 24, 2016 Afraid not, I'm currently unemployed on a different save having a go at the Pentagon Challenge. Had an awful start in the second Division in Argentina followed by a promising spell in Indonesia, which I've subsequently cocked up by resigning to try and secure an MLS job Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tyler16 Posted February 27, 2016 Share Posted February 27, 2016 I don't have much to add other than saying this was a fantastic read. Thanks so much for posting. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RTHerringbone Posted February 27, 2016 Author Share Posted February 27, 2016 I don't have much to add other than saying this was a fantastic read. Thanks so much for posting. Thank you. The Blog is being updated still, but from a less tactical angle and is documenting my slow progress through the Pentagon Challenge. You might want to have a look. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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